India-US Strategic News and Discussion

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 01 Oct 2011 10:30

paramu wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/us/ba ... icans.html

Actually a thief once told me that everyone knows that Asians keep "good" gold and guns in their house, as they do not trust the bank. Robbery and burglary of Asian houses are going on for a long time in California.
Gautam

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 Oct 2011 22:58

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... avid-frum/

“It should have been evident to clear-eyed observers that the Republican Party is becoming less and less like a traditional political party in a representative democracy and becoming more like an apocalyptic cult, or one of the intensely ideological authoritarian parties of 20th century Europe,” blared a searing essay on the left-wing website Truthout earlier this month. This is, of course, conventional wisdom among many liberals. But the author, Mike Lofgren, wasn’t a man of the left: He was a veteran Republican congressional staffer.

The piece was just the latest bit of evidence of the rift in the Republican Party between the establishmentarians who once defined it and the right-wingers who have largely taken it over. And perhaps no one in Washington is more sensitive to that rift than David Frum, the former Bush speechwriter and prominent neoconservative.

A few weeks after Lofgren’s piece was published, I called Frum to ask what he thought of it. “I think there’s a lot of truth to it,” he said. It’s a “little too much of a stark morality play,” he added. “The story I would tell is not of a golden age that ended in 2009. What I see is a gradual accumulating breakdown.”

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Oct 2011 06:02

http://blogs.cfr.org/patrick/2011/09/15 ... e-atlantic

US-India: Strategic Partners with a Limitless Future
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2011
by Stewart M. Patrick

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton (L) waves after meeting with India's Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao (R) upon her arrival into New Delhi India in July, 2011. (B Mathur/Courtesy Reuters)
Over the past decade relations between India and the United States—the world’s two largest democracies—have utterly transformed. Carefully nurtured, this bilateral relationship should become one of the world’s strategic pivots and improve prospects for global peace and prosperity in the twenty-first century.
But this transition will require psychological adjustments from both nations. India must shed outdated mindsets that still dominate much of its foreign policy elite and accept the obligations of its surging power. And the United States must accept a more collective form of global leadership, in which others shape the terms and conditions of multilateral cooperation. If New Delhi and Washington can make this transition, their partnership has a limitless future.

Nevertheless, two frictions continue to stress relations. From a U.S. perspective, India at times seems trapped in a post-colonial mindset that privileges developing world solidarity over other values, including human rights and democracy, complicating U.S. policy goals from Burma to Zimbabwe. India also maintains a strongly noninterventionist stance within the United Nations, generally opposing the use of coercive instruments. It usually opposes sanctions or the use of force to enforce UN Security Council (UNSC) resolutions, whether the challenge is restraining Iranian nuclear ambitions or ending Qaddafi’s brutality. Such attitudes give pause to U.S. officials and outside experts who worry about India’s likely behavior as a permanent member of the UNSC, notwithstanding President Obama’s declaration of support. Will India take a global view of its responsibilities, or cling to a more parochial role?
Second, India has not yet formulated a clear vision of its role in the world—nor signaled its readiness to assume the burdens of shared global leadership its emerging great power status implies. Within India, strategic thinking remains immature. This is partly a function of India’s under-developed diplomatic “software,” as my colleague Dan Markey observes. But it also reflects India’s fractious domestic politics. Currents of anti-Americanism and suspicion of U.S. imperialist agendas remain strong within India’s main political parties, and nearly derailed the historic U.S.-India nuclear deal, to cite one example. Perhaps more importantly, India confronts daunting internal development challenges. India remains desperately poor—with some 37 percent of the population under the poverty line, and with 400 million people lacking electricity. This combination of unclear vision, volatile internal politics, and pressing domestic priorities makes one wonder just how much India can—and will be willing—to contribute to global public goods. In view of these internal constraints, the Indian government will be sorely tempted to free ride on the contributions of others, even as it insists on entrée and voice in the world’s leading forums of global governance, from the UNSC to the Group of 20 to the World Bank and IMF.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Oct 2011 07:27

Forget US tailcoats and concentrate on internal development to create a cohesive nation state and then they will beat a path to our door.

its a wonder he didn't mention lack toilets!

Anyway very clear that the expect Indian UNSC memebrship to be a lemma to Western power. They did all they could to hinder Indian rise and now want advance commitment to follow their agenda!

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 02 Oct 2011 07:34

How could we concentrate on internal development when a single party has been in power for 90% of the time since India came to be. In fact, a single family for most of that part. And as long as the 600 million living in abject poverty keep supporting you, its in your interest to keep them in that same condition as possible. You now have total monopoly while the rhetoric can be directed towards Hindus for all the failures of the country.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Oct 2011 07:46

Manny wrote:How could we concentrate on internal development when a single party has been in power for 90% of the time since India came to be. In fact, a single family for most of that part. And as long as the 600 million living in abject poverty keep supporting you, its in your interest to keep them in that same condition as possible. You now have total monopoly while the rhetoric can be directed towards Hindus for all the failures of the country.

Change since it is your country.
Bring in change and you can do it

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 02 Oct 2011 09:38

Acharya wrote:
Change since it is your country.
Bring in change and you can do it

Very appropriate and uplifting message, Sir.
You lead the way, and I will follow you, even to hell, Sir.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Oct 2011 09:39

i am doing my bit

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Oct 2011 11:12

Should this be seen as a jhapad or a pat on the back?

Dr Singh's restraint on tackling terror remarkable: US

United States Senator Mark Warner, the democratic co-chair of the Senate India [ Images ] Caucus, said Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh and India's restraint in the face of continuing terrorist attacks is nothing short of remarkable and keeping with the best traditions of India.

In a question and answer session that followed his kick-off address to the third Brookings- Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry Strategic Dialogue on US-India relations, he responded to the recent allegations of Pakistan-based Inter-Services Intelligence-supported terrorist groups attacking American troops and targets in India. "The Indian government in light of some of the not one, but multiple acts of aggression has acted with a level of restraint and class that is commensurate with the best traditions of India," he said.

According to him, India and the United States have both been victims of terror attacks, but India unfortunately, more recently and more repeatedly.

Warner said consequently, both countries "stand united in opposition to terrorist groups and are both equally disturbed over direct of indirect state-support by certain nations of terrorist activities."

He lauded the "beginnings of collaboration between the homeland security operations in the United States and the home office operations in India," and recalled Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano's recent visit to India to launch a US-India Homeland Security Strategic Dialogue.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Oct 2011 11:38

That is just a pat in the back. The khans know that even if they slap Indian PM. He will not retaliate. The BRFites may get angry at that slap. But the PM will not unless the Rajmata tells him to be angry.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 03 Oct 2011 12:08

looks like bad news all the way.

only good news is the Indian economy keeps rolling along.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 03 Oct 2011 12:53

Biden's brother receive package containing anthrax from India...Whats going on!!!!!!

I tell ya, pakis are upto no good....

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 03 Oct 2011 13:32

MMS gets a pat in the back from unkil for showing restraint.
'Dr Singh's restraint on tackling terror remarkable'

United States Senator Mark Warner, the democratic co-chair of the Senate India [ Images ] Caucus, said Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh [ Images ] and India's restraint in the face of continuing terrorist attacks is nothing short of remarkable and keeping with the best traditions of India.

In a question and answer session that followed his kick-off address to the third Brookings- Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry Strategic Dialogue on US-India relations, he responded to the recent allegations of Pakistan-based Inter-Services Intelligence-supported terrorist groups attacking American troops and targets in India. "The Indian government in light of some of the not one, but multiple acts of aggression has acted with a level of restraint and class that is commensurate with the best traditions of India," he said.

Amirkhans can talk. What goes of their father's? So shall we say MMS is now one step closer to 'Noble piece price'.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 03 Oct 2011 13:32

Oh I see it is already posted. Sorry.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Oct 2011 13:53

^^^

Well with the open jeehard against the economy by the NAC. You can expect the economy to revert to the Hindu rates of growth of the socialist era soon.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Oct 2011 14:08

^^ Think a better name would be Nehru rate of growth or Nehru-Ghandhy rate of growth....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Oct 2011 14:14

Wonderful.We must all stay glued to our traditional roles.India show perpetual "restraint" as we did for thousands of years of invasion and looting,Pak the ever-willing rent-boy(?),the west in permanent search for colonies and the US the eternal cowboy,sending the "injuns" to the reservations what?!

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 03 Oct 2011 14:38

Why is economic growth slowing? - because RBI has raised interest rates.

Why has RBI raised interest rates? - because there is high inflation.

Why is there high inflation? - because government has spent mountains of money in non productive schemes like NREGA.

Who initiated NREGA? - Sonia Gandhi and Jean Dreze.

So this white western duo has succeeded in derailing India's growth when it was beginning to threaten western dominance.

Still think we need to have a law banning foreigners from holding public office?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Oct 2011 16:54

Spot on Abhi! The tragedy of this farcial govt. is that add to it the "brown sahib" PM,whose values as he himself has said are all from the west, and you get a totally subservient,grovelling,geriatric,govt. ,which behaves like a fawning dog wagging its tail at its white master in the hope of a kind pat on the head or a bone thrown to it.

The further tragedy of this govt. is that judging from the current farcial events during SG's disappearance,is that shockingly,like her esteemeed late mother-in-law,she is the only "man" in the govt.There was a post recently about Mrs.Thatcher and her cabinet having lunch at a restaurant ordering a steak for herself and when asked by the waiter "what about the vegetables?",replied "Oh,they'll have the same ..."! The same holds good for Sonia's UPA-2 led by that great warrior,the lion of let-downs,"Surrender Singh".Having mortgaged India to the west and US in particular,we have actually become a colony once again,having invited our erstwhile white masters to rape us economically and strategically,with crumbs thrown to the natives by another be-turbaned flunkey in charge of central planning, called "Money-talks Oilywallah",who has determined that 32 devalued rupees are sufficient for a family to get by in an Indian city and 26 enough for a peasant! That has been the cruellest cut of all and Money-talks at the behest of his be-turbaned master Surrender Singh has mercilessly delivered the cut without any anaesthesia-explanation as to how he reached this absurd figure that has made India the laughing stock of the world.

Is there any wonder we are in thralldom yet again?

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 04 Oct 2011 22:26

President Obama Congratulates Google Science Fair Winners
http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and-vi ... ir-winners

Two out of the three winners are Indian American kids. This has not gone unnoticed (as is the fact that all the winners are girls).

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 10 Oct 2011 20:50

On Ramana's asking:

Short summary of "A tumultuous time: OSS and army intelligence in India, 1942-46" by Marshall Windmiller

The article primarily talks about how the US military intelligence that was the prequel to the CIA positioned itself in British India (and in extension Burma, China and South East Asia) and how they subverted the established British intelligence in the process even though they had promised the British intelligence to eschew from contesting on territory under "friends' control". While much of the details on how this establishment actually happened are missing, there are enough hints that under the guise of the World War II and Britain's overwhelming dependence on America, political bargaining between Churchill and Roosevelt forced the British intelligence to open up and share territory with the American intelligence agencies. This contesting between the two intelligence agencies led to a lot of tension that is characteristic of the intelligence terrain.

The main motivator for this special need to position themselves in every country of the world arose from World War II, where the U.S. placed its troops all over the world, across different cultures and political situations, much of which was poorly understood by American planners. The strong belief that led to a very clear-headed policy was that the Americans should not be crippled by ignorance and lack of ground intelligence in any future conflict anywhere in the world. In this process, the Americans were also keen on positioning themselves in a post-British India as being able to influence opinions to American benefit. Thus, they tried to seek out sources that would actually be "self-sustaining" in the intelligence gathering operations. American businessmen did not fit this billing because they would stand out easily. Mixing with "Indians of prominence" was meant to be risky as there were too many British informants amongst them. Ergo, there is an implicit suggestion that quite a fraction of the "Indians of prominence" were not unfavorable to sustained British presence in India. The class that was meant to be the least risky was Indians who wanted independence from the British. The Indian patriot was meant to be the most useful and the least riskiest option to gather intelligence on Indian matters.

We also get a snapshot on what could make a brilliant spymaster: a language specialist with a lot of tact and penchant for translating even the most obscure articles for study, an ability to cross-analyze and verify data from across the spectrum, an ability to breathe and live intelligence gathering, an ability to socialize and mix with prominent people from across the political landscape, to understand internal politics and the various affiliations, etc. In essence, we get to see what Wikileaks shows us on who the Americans tend to meet. From what I can understand, meeting prominent Indians could have happened as well at a social gathering as much as a private event or an embassy tete-a-tete. Some of the intelligence gathering could have been done without the victim being even remotely aware of the dubious credibility of the agent in action.

On a side note, the article also talks about how intelligence agents of the Chinese nationalists under Chiang Kai Shek had penetrated India, especially Calcutta and provides glimpses of how the triangle between the British, the Americans and the Chinese nationalists was closed. It also talks about terrain conflicts between inter-American agencies which strikes a resemblance with much of this sphere across countries and continents. We also see how a standard modus operandi of a U.S. intelligence officer who marries a political source of information being played out. One incident that stands out in my mind that typifies this example is the marriage of the last King of Sikkim and his daughter to American agents (http://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/03/style ... gewanted=1), which most likely forced Indira Gandhi's hand in this matter.

Many of the OSS people left after the War effort and the Indian independence to position themselves in administering exchange programs such as the Ford Foundation fellowships, Rockefeller Foundation awards, Fulbright scholarships, etc., amongst other awards and scholarship programs. They also wrote books on India, established "South Asia" programs in universities such as Cornell, Berkeley, Pennsylvania and Chicago, and defended Nehru's policies on non-alignment to the Truman and Eisenhower administrations. By this means, they continued to be cultivators of Indian sources of benefit to the U.S without much fear of being a stand-out feature.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Oct 2011 21:02

Dilbu wrote: Amirkhans can talk. What goes of their father's? So shall we say MMS is now one step closer to 'Noble piece price'.

If he is given the peace prize, then there is no more a carrot to dangle. Shrewd masters give tidbits onlee, the carrot is dangled from a stick that is secured to the body. So as the body moves, the carrot moves along too.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Oct 2011 23:04

Good summary Stan. Thanks, hope it clears some cobwebs in the mind.

Can you link the article for others to read for themselves and not think its al CT?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 Oct 2011 06:26

The Myth of American Exceptionalism: The idea that the United States is uniquely virtuous may be comforting to Americans. Too bad it's not true.

Napoleon's Curse: The illusion of omnipotence has exhausted America and spoiled its allies.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 Oct 2011 07:25

Redefining the Meaning of No. 1

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 11 Oct 2011 23:41

abhischekcc wrote:If they note down the ethnicity of the thieves, they WILL be found to be pakis.

Not necessarily. Indians are becoming more visible all over the world not just US. Desi crowd in US is known for showing off (not just in India). Most Desi's that I have met in a social group often time brag about 'Oh that is nothing..we have this and we have that. In India, we do this and we spend this much and we believe in this and that'. It seems at times they always get into the comparison and bragging mindset by differentiating what they have/had in India with what they have/had in US. This is often common within Desis but it is clearly witnessed by non-desi crowd in US too. Many of them still have the same old mentality of showing off their status and power as many of them do in India to show off their social power and prowess.

During bad economic times, these incidents are common in US (and i'm sure pretty much the norm around the world). They're wide spread across the US. Majority of the non-desi crowd knows that Indians save money and are loaded. Indian Families rank at the highest when it comes to average family income in US due to their education. Most of the Indians are also known to be non-violent (Not possessing a Gun in the US as it's a citizens right to bear firearm to protect the house or family). Naturally they are easy targets for the minimally educated thug to spot a lottery ticket with dazzling and glittering jewelry in their luxury car (Mostly Mercedes, BMW, Lexus) pulling into a wealthy neighborhood.

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 11 Oct 2011 23:59

Acharya wrote:
Manny wrote:How could we concentrate on internal development when a single party has been in power for 90% of the time since India came to be. In fact, a single family for most of that part. And as long as the 600 million living in abject poverty keep supporting you, its in your interest to keep them in that same condition as possible. You now have total monopoly while the rhetoric can be directed towards Hindus for all the failures of the country.
Change since it is your country.
Bring in change and you can do it

Easy said then done. It all starts with the Parents and Teachers. It is very easy to type away on a Forum for anyone of us.

How many of you have actually bribed someone or received bribe for real?
How many of you have violated ethics of any kind just to become more richer, powerful and visible?
There are tonnes of such questions but not many answers.

Sawaal ye paida hotaa hai ki Kaun baandhega billi ke gale mei ghanti?

The Dark Force has been winning pretty much globally. How many people attempted to bring change but were taken out in India or anywhere? I think one of the key is to build a System which can keep itself in check and rectify itself of corruption and keep it at a pre-determined percentage instead of spinning upwards all the time. This will only come with time once there is traceability and accountability of every single aspect of the economy (Something similar to Social Security Number in US for Individuals).

Corporations have their Identifications and Registrations but still has plenty of loop holes with respect to Corporate Taxes. I do know the process has started but it is not expected to complete until 2015?? Cut metal with metal. The logic being to fight crime, hire criminals as consultants to sniff out the criminals. Update the Colonial Judicial System. Just a couple of things besides several others that we have read about, experienced yet we chose to do nothing except advice someone else to follow but not follow ourselves.

saip · Post by **saip** » 12 Oct 2011 00:16

I am not sure where this news item goes. According to CNN, USA has thwarted an alleged plot by IRAN to assassinate Saudi Arabian ambassador to USA. Why Iran would to such a thing in the USA is beyond me. Iran has called this a conspiracy. Now it is possible that USA will impose more sanctions against Iran and India may be affected by those.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/11/of ... ?hpt=hp_t1

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 12 Oct 2011 00:22

saip wrote:I am not sure where this news item goes. According to CNN, USA has thwarted an alleged plot by IRAN to assassinate Saudi Arabian ambassador to USA. Why Iran would to such a thing in the USA is beyond me. Iran has called this a conspiracy. Now it is possible that USA will impose more sanctions against Iran and India may be affected by those.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/11/of ... ?hpt=hp_t1

same old game same old trick

Nothing new.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Oct 2011 00:49

Does India advice on foreign policy

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 51087.html

CLINTON-INDIA 2 LAST
PTI | 02:10 PM,Oct 09,2011
Appreciating India's engagement with other countries, Appreciating India's engagement with other countries, Clinton said it can serve as a model for the entire region. Another example of India's leadership as a regional partner is the nearly USD 2 billion it has provided to help build a stable, secure and prosperous Afghanistan, she said.

Pointing out that US and India were making progress on a broad range of issues, including regional security, development and renewable energy, Clinton said more American companies are encouraged to invest in India, and her country welcomes India's investments, which are helping to create jobs. She also talked about the partnership with India through educational and cultural exchange programmes, saying, at next week's USIndia Higher Education Summit here, the two sides will discuss their shared strategic vision to improve areas of cooperation apart from identifying new areas to grow the exchange programmes. "We want to see more students and faculty from India have the opportunity to study in the United States, and for the same number of American students and faculty to study in India," she said.

On the relationship with Pakistan, Clinton said the US is deeply committed to its long-standing relationship with Pakistan despite the complexities and challenges that sometimes arise. "Though we have had our differences, both of our countries recognise the critical need for continued cooperation across a wide range of issues and especially in our shared fight against terrorism. Together we have worked to destroy, dismantle and defeat al-Qaeda," she said. PTI LKJ PYK AKJ

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Oct 2011 00:55

Hillary Clinton proposes relationship between India-China-US
PTI Oct 9, 2011, 03.04pm IST
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... ld-affairs

WASHINGTON: Secretary of State Hillary Clinton today proposed a "strong, constructive" relationship between India, China and the US to solve "pressing issues" of the 21st century.

India's leadership will "help to shape" positively the future not only of South and Central Asia, but also of the Asia Pacific, she said urging New Delhi not just to "look East, but to engage East".

Outlining a new US thinking, 63-year-old Clinton said here that her country was committed to a strong, constructive relationship among India, the US and China.

"We know this will not always be easy. There are important matters on which we all disagree, one with the other. But we do have significant areas of common interest.

"Ultimately, if we want to address, manage or solve some of the most pressing issues of the 21st century, India, China and the US will have to coordinate our efforts," she said.

The Secretary of State answered questions on Indo-US ties, India's role in world affairs and the recent US spat with Pakistan over its approach in dealing with terrorism.

Appearing to soft-pedal the strain in US-Pak ties, Clinton said Washington was deeply committed to long-standing relationship with Pakistan "despite the complexities and challenges that sometimes arise".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Oct 2011 01:00

Interesting. In a three player game two will cooperate to do away with the third. Being aware of that is what allows the third to survive.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 13 Oct 2011 12:50

Xpost of a fantastic write up by Shiv in the TSP thread:

______________________________

I think it is important to understand that Britain became superpower by default. That is to say Britain did not say "We are going to become a superpower". They just did all the things needed to help themselves and luck was on their side One day people woke up and realised that Britain ruled the world in a multipolar world where other powers (like the French, Germans and Italians and Spanish) were all runners up.

The same thing is true of the US. The US did not set out to become superpower. The US was pulled into two wars (WW1 and 2) shortly after the industrial era. In those wars the existing powers bashed each other senseless leaving only the US. The USSR only became a political-military superpower. It was big enough not to be intimidated by anyone. But it was never a superpower in America's league. America was the only industrial giant standing at the end of WW2. That, compared with its huge military Industrial complex made it superpower. Americans never spent the 20s and 30s saying "We wil become superpower" like I hear Indians (and Chinese) saying today.

The point I seek to make is that the status "superpower" is not so much one of "national ambition" as one of forces of history that bring down old powers and leave others at the top of the heap. American found itself at the top of the heap and then said "Hey we are at the top of the heap. Therefore what we are doing must be right. So we will continue to do what we are doing and will stay at the top of the heap"

American interests in the post WW2 era have been aimed at staying on top of the heap on the assumption that it was something special about American-ness and American actions that put them at the top of the heap. Not chance or the forces of history. America made it seem like "Freedom" (in an American sense) and "Capitalism" were somehow the key to greatness. The world swallowed this because America was already great when they started saying it and no one could argue. But if we just wind the clock back 1000 years then "superpower" would mean Islam. Not freedom. Not democracy. Looting and not capitalism was the basis of economy, although capitalism requires some looting I guess.

i would not assume the continuing of American power. Pakistan may well end up having aspects of power that are greater than America's power. And as America fades we will be left with a extraordinarily powerful Pakistan that contributed to a small extent to the fading of American power. The only question is how much power America will give to Pakistan before it fades away in the mistaken belief that not opposing Pakistan is in American interests.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 13 Oct 2011 13:12

shiv wrote:American interests in the post WW2 era have been aimed at staying on top of the heap on the assumption that it was something special about American-ness and American actions that put them at the top of the heap. Not chance or the forces of history.

Force of demographics is a far more potent force....It would have been highly surprising if the US, as the third-largest country by population and largest in the Western world, with the top two of India and China completely out of contention during the middle of the last century - had not landed up being a superpower.

Also the reason for the current incessant heralding of China and India's superpowerdom is largely based on demographics.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Oct 2011 13:24

abhishek_sharma wrote:The Myth of American Exceptionalism: The idea that the United States is uniquely virtuous may be comforting to Americans. Too bad it's not true.

Napoleon's Curse: The illusion of omnipotence has exhausted America and spoiled its allies.

One important fact which most Americans especially when discussing immigrants conveniently forget is that the Land was taken from Native Americans through Genocide. They were neither welcomed or issued visas for arrival. Off course when such abundant resources are made available, the world most strictest Immigration laws came up, same with Australia. Much of the money was repatriated to Europe which again prospered because of this

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 13 Oct 2011 13:40

Why the decline of the West is best for us – and them

By R Vaidyanathan

Ten years ago, America had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash. Now it has no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash. Or so the joke goes.

Only, it’s no joke. The line is pretty close to reality in the US. The less said about Europe the better. Both the US and Europe are in decline. I was asked by a business channel in 2008 about recovery in the US. I mentioned 40 quarters and after that I was never invited for another discussion.

Recently, another media person asked me the same question and I answered 80 quarters. He was shocked since he was told some “sprouts” of recovery had been seen in the American economy.
It is important to recognise that the dominance of the West has been there only for last 200-and-odd years. According to Angus Maddison’s pioneering OECD study, India and China had nearly 50 percent of global GDP as late as the 1820s. Hence India and China are not emerging or rising powers. They are retrieving their original position.

The dollar is having a rollercoaster ride at present. Reuters

In 1990, the share of the G-7 in world GDP (on a purchasing power parity basis) was 51 percent and that of emerging markets 36 percent. But in 2011, it is the reverse. So the dominant west is a myth.

Similarly, the crisis. It is a US-Europe crisis and not a global one. The two wars – which were essentially European wars – were made out to be world wars with one English leader commenting that ‘we will fight the Germans to the last Indian’.

In this economic scenario, countries like India are made to feel as if they are in a crisis. Since the West says there’s a crisis, we swallow it hook, line and sinker.

But it isn’t so. At no point of time in the last 20 years has foreign investment – direct and portfolio – exceeded 10 percent of our domestic investment. Our growth is due to our domestic savings which is again predominately household savings. Our housewives require awards for our growth not any western fund manager.

The crisis faced by the West is primarily because it has forgotten a six-letter word called ‘saving’ which, again, is the result of forgetting another six letter word called “family”. The West has nationalised families over the last 60 years. Old age, ill health, single motherhood – everything is the responsibility of the state.

When family is a “burden” and children an “encumbrance,” society goes for a toss. Household savings have been negative in the US for long. The total debt to GDP ratio is as high as 400 percent in many countries, including UK. Not only that, the West is facing a severe demographic crisis. The population of Europe during the First World War was nearly 25 percent and today it is around 11 percent and expected to become 3 percent in another 20 years. Europe will disappear from the world map unless migrants from Africa and Asia take it over.

The demographic crisis impacts the West in other ways. Social security goes for a toss since people are living longer and not many from below contribute to their pensions through taxes. So the nationalisation of families becomes a burden on the state.

European work culture has become worse with even our own Tata complaining about the work ethic of British managers. In France and Italy, the weekend starts on Friday morning itself. The population has become lazy and state-dependent.

In the UK, the situation is worse with drunkenness becoming a common problem. Parents do not have control over children and the Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregation in London said: “There are all signs of arteriosclerosis of a culture and a civilisation grown old. Me has taken precedence over We and pleasure today over viability tomorrow.” (The Times: 8 September ).

Married couples make up less than half (45 percent) of all households in the US, say recent data from the Census Bureau. Also there is a huge growth in unmarried couples and single parent families (mostly poor, black women). Society has become dysfunctional or disorganised in the West. The government is trying to be organised.

In India, society is organised and government disorganised. Because of disorganised society in the West the state has to take care of families. The market crash is essentially due to the adoption of a model where there is consumption with borrowings and no savings. How long will Asian savings be able to sustain the western spending binge?

According to a recent report in The Wall Street Journal (10 October 2011), nearly half of US households receive government benefits like food stamps, subsidised housing, cash welfare or Medicare or Medicaid (the federal-state health care programmes for the poor) or social security.

The US is also a stock market economy where half the households are investors and they have been hit hard by bank and corporate failures.

Even now less than 5 percent of our household financial savings goes to the stock market. Same in China and Japan.

Declining empires are dangerous. They will try to peddle their failed models to us and we will swallow it since colonial genes are very much present here. You will find more Indians heading global corporations since India is a very large market and one way to capture it is to make Indian sepoys work for it.

A declining West is best for the rest and also for the West, which needs to rethink its failed models and rework its priorities. For the rest—like us—the fact that the West has failed will be accepted by us only after some western scholars tell us the same. Till then we will try to imitate them and create more dysfunctional families.

We need to recognise that Big Government and Big Business are twin dangers for average citizens. India faces both and they are two asuras we need to guard against. The Leftists in the National Advisory Council want all families to be nationalised and governed by a Big State and reform marketers of the CII variety want Big Business to flourish under crony capitalism. Beware of the twin evils since both look upon India as a charity house or as a market and not as an ancient civilisation.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/why-the- ... 82.html#en

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 13 Oct 2011 16:48

Nandu wrote:President Obama Congratulates Google Science Fair Winners
http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and-vi ... ir-winners

Two out of the three winners are Indian American kids. This has not gone unnoticed (as is the fact that all the winners are girls).

I was listening to an NPR report about this several weeks back. Its one of those NPR shows I like, "Here & Now" hosted by Robin Young. By US news standards, this is an OK show. But I was not surprised, but amused at the latent racist porrayal by someone reasonable as Robin Young. Here they had this Indian American girl, Shree Bose, celebrating women in science. But at the same time, they were going bersek over why so few "Amercian" women in science & engineering. Its as though Shree is not a genuine American.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 13 Oct 2011 22:19

India-U.S. Higher Education Summit kicks off

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 13 Oct 2011 22:44

CRamS wrote:
I was listening to an NPR report about this several weeks back. Its one of those NPR shows I like, "Here & Now" hosted by Robin Young. By US news standards, this is an OK show. But I was not surprised, but amused at the latent racist porrayal by someone reasonable as Robin Young. Here they had this Indian American girl, Shree Bose, celebrating women in science. But at the same time, they were going bersek over why so few "Amercian" women in science & engineering. Its as though Shree is not a genuine American.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that you misinterpreted the show.

http://www.pri.org/stories/science/girl ... r5270.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Oct 2011 22:50

Shiv, It was to educate members that we had the thread "US and the World" which got deleted because of complaints from see near members that this was BR and shouldn't look at the US and its world view!

The US started right after the end of Civil war on its journey to become a superpower with care and delibration. They consolidated the Western US by building the railroads and selective(European) open immigration polices to build up demographic weight/gravitas.

They hedged against China being colonised by Europe by declaring the Open Door policy in 1850s (i.e. China is open door for exploitation by all powers and not just the Western Europeans!) A form of this is there even now in globalzation, free trade and other mantras.

Simultaneoulsy, they launched a study program in Ivy league utys to study British colonies. The release of Google books shows the breadth and depth of that effort in preparation. Leading families sent their sons to British empire to learn and observe. For example Allen Dulles, the former CIA chief was lecturer in Shimla (location of Kim) to learn first hand before WWI. In the early decades of 20th century they gave scholarships to attract Indian students to US utys. Carniege Mellon had a long history of Indian students who later went on to build Tata Steel in Jamshedpur. I have a copy of one of the memoirs.

Turning point was 1890s when US steel and consequently industrial production outpaced Great Britain. This led to US acquiring an industrial surplus to build the sinews of war. Their intevention in WWI was timely (late 1917 war) and only after GB was in a stalemate. In WWII they used Lend lease etc to extract all they could form GB. Read the works of Patrick Hastings, the QC, who handled the valuation of British companies given up to pay for the war materials. Again Pearl Harbor and German declaration of war solved the dilemma of how to intervene.By 1943 they were the larger force in Eruope and GB was reduced to secondary role. You can see that in Churchill's account of WWII in his memoirs.

All these show there was preparation going on and not waking up one fine day and realizing the super powerdom thrust on them.