Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Gaur
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Gaur »

Austin wrote:
If the chief serves 10 months less heavens wont fall , some one who is equally competent as he is will take over and continue with the good work
Arre bhai..it seems that hardly anyone gets the point. It is not about 10 months of service. It is about a Chief of 11 million strong Army being publicly called a petty liar. I don't see how a self respecting man wouldn't fight against that. Honour matters, doesn't it?

In fact, I wouldn't have an iota of respect for the man if he resigns. He will not only be letting down himself, but also his organization and Nation. If a man has no guts to stand for what is right, then he has no business leading an Army. But I am pretty sure that it will not come to that as Gen VK Singh seems like a man to whom izzat matters. Otherwise, he would have traded his DOB for a Governor post by now.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

Gaur wrote:Arre bhai..it seems that hardly anyone gets the point. It is not about 10 months of service. It is about a Chief of 11 million strong Army being publicly called a petty liar. I don't see how a self respecting man wouldn't fight against that. Honour matters, doesn't it?
The Government didnt call him a liar ,India Today/Sandeep mag did and if GOI or Top Government official ends up making an issue with every thing getting published calling one a Liar or Saint then every chief will end up using his tenure to defend what press says or doesnt.

What matters is what the government does and MOD has made its stand clear in the floor of house , now its up to the Chief to either accept it or confront the government and spent the rest of his tenure doing exactly that.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:
ASPuar wrote: Boss, answer to everything is not resign. Why should he resign, if the charges against him are nonsense? Resign, and let the other side have its way? I would never have resigned if I was him. He is doing the right thing by fighting this injustice. And he certainly should not resign now. Its just what his detractors want. They will immediately make it look like he was fired, and that he accepts that he was wrong.


Lets see who has made bed of roses or bed of thorns for himself , my fear is this will lead to a Vishnu Bhagwat like confrontation and the results are just too damaging for the armed forces.

During the bhagwat case, the powers that be were actually homing in on another weighty and more deserving (un)worthy when bhagwat foolishly and over confidently landed up in an "aa baile mujhe maar" situation. This guy had practically litigated his way to senior promotions using his commie ( and senior level commie connected ) supreme court lawyer wife and so thought that he was invincible.

BTW, both seem to be as quiet as church mice these days.

bhagwat had absolutely no sympathy in any circles as he was a sanctimonious bigot and most of the silence was because people who mattered thought that he well deserved what he got. Any way it was good riddance but the image and morale of the Navy took a serious hit

Moron georgy boy was a low IQ maverick and vajpayee maybe was as much a prisoner of coalition politics then as people seem to be these days. The offence of bhagwat certainly did not merit or deserve sacking considering the wider ramifications but moron georgy was egged on by the IAS lobby to sack bhagwat.

The kangress cannot do a bhagwat on vks and survive to tell the tale. It is the Indian Army that they are fiddling with. The IAS will also not survive in its present all pervading form.

In the ensuing chaos, there could very well be a coup :) and more than a few well deserved coir rope suspensions of chosen politicos from well placed lamp posts could be the happy result. :wink:
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Gaur »

Austin wrote:
Gaur wrote:Arre bhai..it seems that hardly anyone gets the point. It is not about 10 months of service. It is about a Chief of 11 million strong Army being publicly called a petty liar. I don't see how a self respecting man wouldn't fight against that. Honour matters, doesn't it?
The Government didnt call him a liar ,India Today/Sandeep mag did and if GOI or Top Government official ends up making an issue with every thing getting published calling one a Liar or Saint then every chief will end up using his tenure to defend what press says or doesnt.

What matters is what the government does and MOD has made its stand clear in the floor of house , now its up to the Chief to either accept it or confront the government and spent the rest of his tenure doing exactly that.
Come on man, who are we kidding here?
When a COAS repeatedly says his DOB is 1951 and GOI says "No, you're DOB is 1950", what does that imply from GOI's point of view? That COAS is a nanna munna 3 yr old who cannot even remember his DOB? If not, then the only other thing that is implied is malintent on Gen VK Singh's part. At the very least, the GOI is implying that Gen VK Singh is a power hungry man who will lie about his age in order to cling to his post for another year.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju

On the age issue of Army Chief Gen V K Singh, he said, "I think that has been answered in a Parliamentary question. This is not an issue for public debate but an internal matter which we is being looked into. Everybody is dealing with it in a dignified manner."
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

370 officers commissioned into Army
Chennai, Sep 17 (PTI): Over 370 men and women were today commissioned into the Indian Army as officers after a passing out parade at the Officers Training Academy. Lt Gen V K Ahluwalia, GOC-in C, Central Command, reviewed the passing out parade at OTA. Eighteen cadets from Afghanistan also graduated as officers. Cadet Under Officer Abhinav Shulka was adjudged the best performer in the course. The academy's Officiating Commandant Maj Gen U M Rajavelu was also present during the function. The 650-acre Officers Training Academy here trains cadets as officers, acquainting them with physical training, drill endurance training, weapon training, academics, radio communication supplemented by military history, communication skills and military etiquette.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

Gaur wrote:Come on man, who are we kidding here?
When a COAS repeatedly says his DOB is 1951 and GOI says "No, you're DOB is 1950", what does that imply from GOI's point of view? That COAS is a nanna munna 3 yr old who cannot even remember his DOB? If not, then the only other thing that is implied is malintent on Gen VK Singh's part. At the very least, the GOI is implying that Gen VK Singh is a power hungry man who will lie about his age in order to cling to his post for another year.
We do not really know who is the Munna or who has become the Abba of the Munna or the Munna thinks he is the Abba :lol:

The Government has set the dice rolling by sticking to its statement in Parliament and Palam Raju emphasising it again , now he talks of dealing with dignified manner , wonder sticking to what it said in Parliament a dignified manner would imply arm twisting the Chief till he remembers his revised DOB :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

chetak wrote: In the ensuing chaos, there could very well be a coup :) and more than a few well deserved coir rope suspensions of chosen politicos from well placed lamp posts could be the happy result. :wink:
Come on Chetak. Coup on DOB issue. Unlikely. Afterall IA is largely SDRE. :twisted:
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Austin wrote:
chaanakya wrote:yes, if AKA is wrong, he should not only resign, but leave politics. If he is right . let Chief retire.
Leave politics for what he may just quit thats it and that too not becuase the chief is proven right because he mislead on the floor of the house
AKA is stated to have given this decision, as per earlier reports once Attorney General's Advice and Law Ministry's notings were received. And now he seems to have misled the Parliament ( read lied) on the issue. So his resignation would be because a Junior Authority was proven right in a public stand off. So much of heat is being generated on the issue which is primarily a question of facts, documents and procedure , notwithstanding the big implication of decision on future COAS. CON Party seems to have dubious interest.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

chaanakya wrote:
chetak wrote: In the ensuing chaos, there could very well be a coup :) and more than a few well deserved coir rope suspensions of chosen politicos from well placed lamp posts could be the happy result. :wink:
Come on Chetak. Coup on DOB issue. Unlikely. Afterall IA is largely SDRE. :twisted:

May be not DOB issue but dismissal or removal of vks at this stage.

The Army will not keep quiet for sure if a bhagwat is pulled. It will be a knock down and drag

out fight on prime time TV if VKS is dismissed.

Nor will the country keep quiet for that matter.

Do you want to bet that Anna will lead the charge??

Followed by the BJP, RSS, VHP and the wrath of the middle class.

VKS has all the documentary evidence in his legal favor.

The kangress / IAS only has some vague succession policy.

It's a no contest
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by anjan »

Austin wrote: Then he should not have scummed to the pressure of his bosses , you cant get it both ways . He could have put a note of dissent disagreed upon and could have put his papers.

The Chief should never repeat never end up in confrontation with Government , It doesnt agur well for the morale of the force should the government end up taking action against him , It took a long time for the Navy to get over Vishnu Bhagwat episode.
What kind of argument is this? If the Chief believes he's right he should pick a fight. ASPuar pointed out this is exactly what the IAS has used against the Army time and again. Since when did the rule of law stop applying on the basis of "Chief should never end up in a confrontation with the Govt." Who else does this brilliant rule apply to?

Talking to people both serving and retired you can see the amount of respect the man has generated which is quite something especially given the tenures of his predecessors. As it stands, if he stopped fighting it would be a greater blow to morale.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Kakkaji »

rohitvats wrote:From BR News section (http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=15347)

Babus block Indian Army’s plans to counter China’s PLA

Excerpt:
The finance wing of the defence ministry in consultation with the ministry of finance is not agreeable to spend a whopping Rs12,000 crore to set up a Mountain Strike Corps even as a plan to create an alternate, all-weather route from Siliguri to North Sikkim to rush troops to the Indo-China border has been rejected by the ministry of environment and forests on the grounds that the alignment passes through eco-sensitive areas.

Feeling kind of helpless and sad after reading this. :(
So, there will be a sequel to the song "Ae mere watan ke logo".

It will be sung by Lata Mangeshkar (or the most popular contemporary female vocalist) on the Republic Day. It will make the Prime Minister of the day, and the audience, cry.

The song will be a chart-topper, and will be sung on Independence Day and Republic Day for the following several years.

What else is new? :(
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

A pooch to Gurus... Mr. CG claims
deliveries of the (Prithvi SRBM) SS-150s got underway from 1993 and lasted till early 2009, with about 180 being built by the MoD-owned, Hyderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd. These missiles presently equip the 333 (raised in June 1993 in Panchmarhi and commissioned in October 1995 under the Ambala-based 40 Artillery Division of the Mathura-based I Corps), 444 (raised in October 2001 under the Pune-based 41 Artillery Division of the Jodhpur-based XII Corps) and 555 Missile Groups (operational by January 2005 under the 42 Artillery Division of the Ambala-based II Corps), with each Group being equipped with 60 liquid-fuelled SS-150s.
My questions:
1) 333rd Missile regiment was raised in Kamtee in Maharashtra, isn't it?
2) Div-Corps correspondence seems to be iffy?
3) Do we have only 180 Prithvi missiles?

Appreciate a response.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

chaanakya wrote: Come on Chetak. Coup on DOB issue. Unlikely. Afterall IA is largely SDRE. :twisted:
Lol, Sir Indian Army has a vast representation from the land of the five rivers, just like the Army of certain of our porcine neighbours.. :twisted:

Of course, Chetak is just joking, but agree 100% with his comments. No government in its right mind will ever attempt to pull a Bhagwat on the Indian Army. And of course, Bhagwat really didnt get a lot of sympathy amongst the services, as he made his unceremonious exit. The BJP largely brushed that matter under the carpet as an embarrassing aside.
Last edited by ASPuar on 18 Sep 2011 09:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

chackojoseph wrote: On the age issue of Army Chief Gen V K Singh, he said, "I think that has been answered in a Parliamentary question. This is not an issue for public debate but an internal matter which we is being looked into. Everybody is dealing with it in a dignified manner."
:rotfl: :rotfl:

What about when it was falsely answered by a Parliamentary question??
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

My thinking is the Government wont deliberately mislead the Parliament knowing whats at stake , its not that one fine day they would make statement without verifying the fact , over and above the MOS Defence re-emphasis on that same statement of AKA made to the Parliament and talks of dignified approach.

Now its up to the chief to either confront the MOD or take the right message from Parliament statement and get a dignified exit so that some one equally competent can take over his job.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Actually, the government has clearly misled parliament here, so there is no speculation about it. And it has happened before. And also the courts. It is not that the minister (or solicitor general) wants to tell lies. Its that his notes are prepared by bureaucrats with agendas of their own.

Examples of past misconduct in court abound also. Please see:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20101231/edit.htm#7
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by anjan »

Austin wrote:My thinking is the Government wont deliberately mislead the Parliament knowing whats at stake , its not that one fine day they would make statement without verifying the fact , over and above the MOS Defence re-emphasis on that same statement of AKA made to the Parliament and talks of dignified approach.

Now its up to the chief to either confront the MOD or take the right message from Parliament statement and get a dignified exit so that some one equally competent can take over his job.
Seriously you start by calling him a liar and then you talk about a dignified exit. Make up your mind. At least the Cong. and the bureaucrats in this instance have a vested instance so I understand their waffling. What's your logic? It's not like Govt. misleading parliament is an unheard of thing.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ASPuar wrote:
chackojoseph wrote: On the age issue of Army Chief Gen V K Singh, he said, "I think that has been answered in a Parliamentary question. This is not an issue for public debate but an internal matter which we is being looked into. Everybody is dealing with it in a dignified manner."
:rotfl: :rotfl:

What about when it was falsely answered by a Parliamentary question??
"ANTONY FACES TROUBLE FOR STATEMENT ON ARMY CHIEF'S AGE" - BUSINESS STANDARD




If the 'factuals' brought out in the media report below be authentic, then it changes the perspective on this DOB issue.


The fact of promotions (Brig upwards) being based upon 1951 date, and the real requirement being 'reconciliation' of dates and NOT 'change' of dates, if clearly enunciated, right at the outset of this ugly and undesirable controversy, would perhaps have avoided the ongoing media and Internet 'campaigns' by the two side, with every Tom, Dick and Harry contributing his heated penny's worth, as also it may have tamped the uglier succession 'angle'.


If St Anthony comes up with a 'sane' response even now, perhaps this issue may die down, to the relief of the whole IA - present and past ! But will he be allowed to, by his 'ambient environment' ?


Notwithstanding all above, wish this controversy had not occurred, either earlier, or later than today !




http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/



Friday, 16 September 2011




Antony faces trouble for statement on army chief's age








A copy of the Military Secretary's Branch letter that confirms that all General VK Singh's senior promotions (from brigadier to major general to lieutenant general) were on the basis of a date of birth of 10th May 1951. The army chief has been told by the defence ministry that his official date of birth is 10th May 1950, and that he must retire in May 2012 on reaching the age of 62




Ajai Shukla


Business Standard


16th Sept 2011



Defence Minister A K Antony faces a possible breach of privilege motion for misleading the Rajya Sabha in the increasingly bitter battle between the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the army chief, General V K Singh, over the latter’s date of birth, which will determine when he hangs up his uniform.



The controversy stems from the army’s four-decade error in maintaining two conflicting dates of birth for Gen Singh in two separate record-holding branches: May 10, 1950 and May 10, 1951. The MoD has ruled that the general was born in 1950; hence he will retire on May 31, 2012, after reaching the age of 62 that month. The army chief, asserting a point of honour, has officially petitioned Antony that his birth year be considered 1951 on the basis of multiple documents that he submitted four decades ago (including his matriculation and birth certificates). That would make Gen Singh eligible to serve till May 31, 2013.



Now Antony faces potential trouble in Parliament. Samajwadi Party MP Mohan Singh has demanded a clarification on Antony’s apparently false reply to a parliamentary question that the MP raised on the army chief’s date of birth. In his written reply to the Rajya Sabha on September 7, Antony declared, “The date of birth of General V K Singh, Chief of Army Staff, has been maintained as May 10,1950 at the time of his selection as Corps Commander in 2006, as well as his subsequent promotions as Army Commander in 2008 and Chief of the Army Staff in 2010.”



This, it is learnt, is untrue. The army’s Military Secretary’s Branch (MS Branch), which directly handles promotions, clearly informed the defence secretary in writing, on July 1 that all senior-level promotions of the army chief had been approved with his birth date reflected as May 10, 1951.



Business Standard has viewed MS Branch letter No A/4501/01/GEN/MS(X), signed by the Military Secretary, Lieutenant General G M Nair. This letter informs the defence secretary that Gen V K Singh’s promotion to brigadier in 1996; to major general in 2003; and to lieutenant general in 2005; all had May 10, 1951 as the date of birth.



The MS Branch is the department that has maintained all along that Gen Singh was born in 1950. The Adjutant General’s Branch (AG’s Branch), which is the ultimate authority for personnel records, has the army chief’s birth year as 1951 since he was commissioned as an officer in 1970.



“The MoD has hidden material facts in their reply. I have now asked for details… and I expect the defence minister to reply within 10-15 days. If the defence minister does not provide full details this time, I will be well within my rights to move a breach of privilege motion,” Mohan Singh asserted.



In response to a query from this newspaper, the MoD said, “We have received the MP’s letter and the honourable Raksha Mantri (defence minister) has asked the ministry to examine the issue raised by the honourable MP.”



It is learnt that a band of committed supporters, many of them dating back to the army chief’s childhood, have joined hands behind him. They appear driven by a powerful sense of grievance, Anna Hazare-style, centred on the belief that a crooked system is trying to prematurely rid itself of an inconveniently honest army chief.



This sense of victimisation is reinforced by what they see as a media campaign to malign the army chief. They cite as an example, a news report, ‘Lies of the General’ in the latest issue of India Today, in which Attorney General Goolam Vahanvati is quoted as saying police verification at the time Gen Singh joined the army showed his year of birth as 1950. To refute that, Business Standard was shown copies of the police verification (from DIG CID (IB), Rajasthan and DIG CID, Punjab; Haryana, the army chief’s home state, did not exist at that time) indicating his birth year as 1951.



At the heart of the dispute is the MoD’s contention that any amendment to a date of birth must take place within two years of an officer’s commissioning. Gen Singh argues in his petition that he is not asking for an amendment. His demand is that the MS Branch reconcile its flawed records with the correct record that has always been available with the army’s authentic authority, the AG’s Branch.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

ASPuar wrote:Actually, the government has clearly misled parliament here, so there is no speculation about it. And it has happened before. And also the courts. It is not that the minister (or solicitor general) wants to tell lies. Its that his notes are prepared by bureaucrats with agendas of their own.

Examples of past misconduct in court abound also. Please see:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20101231/edit.htm#7
No two issues are similar so please don't bring in past issue to justify the present decision.

Do we actually have evidence ( other then press news which can be sexed up ) to prove that government has mislead the parliament , becuase its a very serious issue that can bring in breach of previlage motion against the minister and the fact that MOD and MOS are sticking to their statement make me think the government knows what it knows and has acted based on what it knows.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

anjan wrote:Seriously you start by calling him a liar and then you talk about a dignified exit. Make up your mind. At least the Cong. and the bureaucrats in this instance have a vested instance so I understand their waffling. What's your logic? It's not like Govt. misleading parliament is an unheard of thing.
Please dont mix up press hyper activity and adjective used to describe it as Govt intentions , the govt did not call him a liar or any thing like that , the govt made a statement and stood by it and has called for dignified approach

Its not a Congress or UPA or BJP issue here but MOD and Army Chief disagreement over DOB.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Well, since the recorded facts disagree with what the minister has said in parliament, I think it is fairly clear that parliament has been misled. It is for this very reason that a privilege motion has been threatened.

And past conduct is a good indicator of future conduct. I am telling you that it certainly has happened in the past. Its your choice what you want to make of it. A privilege motion may be called. But more likely Antony will just say that he was misinformed.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:
ASPuar wrote:Actually, the government has clearly misled parliament here, so there is no speculation about it. And it has happened before. And also the courts. It is not that the minister (or solicitor general) wants to tell lies. Its that his notes are prepared by bureaucrats with agendas of their own.

Examples of past misconduct in court abound also. Please see:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20101231/edit.htm#7
No two issues are similar so please don't bring in past issue to justify the present decision.

Do we actually have evidence ( other then press news which can be sexed up ) to prove that government has mislead the parliament , becuase its a very serious issue that can bring in breach of previlage motion against the minister and the fact that MOD and MOS are sticking to their statement make me think the government knows what it knows and has acted based on what it knows.

Austin saab,

It is a very serious issue.

The IA is incensed and the breach of privilege motion against the minister will also be taken up very soon.

BTW what "actual" evidence do you want produced and by whom? All is by press reports only and in some cases corroborated by reliable verbal inputs from old service "contacts" and "sources".

That this government has misled the parliament is without doubt and it's not the first time either. moron politicos who are more interested in protecting their rear ends in state politics have no time for their main jobs and so depend on motivated babus to steer them through the minefield in parliament. Sometimes such saints also do come a cropper.

vks is not a fly on the wall and cannot easily be brushed aside and also is as clean as saint antony ever claimed himself to be. All the bluster by the MOD and MOS and solicitor general et al will not save them. BJP will not allow this issue to to be brushed under the carpet now.

The govt will now try, in true kangress style, to buy off vks with either a diplomatic or governer post somewhere.

And get kicked in their B@!!s for their efforts.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

ASPuar wrote:Well, since the recorded facts disagree with what the minister has said in parliament, I think it is fairly clear that parliament has been misled. It is for this very reason that a privilege motion has been threatened.
Recorded reliable fact some thing available in public domain or something that has been mentioned in the press , becuase afaik all the information available is through press which i am not inclined to take it.

Which MP has threatened privilege motion against AKA ?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

chetak wrote:The govt will now try, in true kangress style, to buy off vks with either a diplomatic or governer post somewhere.

And get kicked in their B@!!s for their efforts.
Right now what the government says is I know I am right but let us take this in a dignified matter they cant get it both ways, MOD cant be right and vks cant be right either ?

regarding government never underestimate GOI , right now IB would be very busy collecting all the information that they need and keeping an eye on VKS and in the last occasion government used RAW/IB to prepare the ground before they eased out bhagwat.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:
chetak wrote:The govt will now try, in true kangress style, to buy off vks with either a diplomatic or governer post somewhere.

And get kicked in their B@!!s for their efforts.
Right now what the government says is I know I am right but let us take this in a dignified matter they cant get it both ways, MOD cant be right and vks cant be right either ?

regarding government never underestimate GOI , right now IB would be very busy collecting all the information that they need and keeping an eye on VKS and in the last occasion government used RAW/IB to prepare the ground before they eased out bhagwat.

bhagwat was a one time foolisness only. It can never be repeated in India again. The IAS lobby has wasted it's most potent weapon. This option does not exist anymore.

No other govt will dare to do this as they will be trashed by the people.Least of all this scam tainted mms government with it's string of corruption cases and the country's reaction via ex Army man Anna. The kangress can ill afford to go up against the IA.

IB or no IB vks will survive. If the succession plan issue is brought up then it had to be based on the actual date of birth as all of vks's senior promotions were done on the basis of his correct DOB. The IAS joker who advised antony should be sacked imediately as this will both get antony out of the privilege motion spot and assuage the IA.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:
ASPuar wrote:Well, since the recorded facts disagree with what the minister has said in parliament, I think it is fairly clear that parliament has been misled. It is for this very reason that a privilege motion has been threatened.
Recorded reliable fact some thing available in public domain or something that has been mentioned in the press , becuase afaik all the information available is through press which i am not inclined to take it.

Which MP has threatened privilege motion against AKA ?


If not him then many others eager to embarrass the kangress will take it up.

Amma is a prime candidate through her MPs in parliament.

Now Antony faces potential trouble in Parliament. Samajwadi Party MP Mohan Singh has demanded a clarification on Antony’s apparently false reply to a parliamentary question that the MP raised on the army chief’s date of birth. In his written reply to the Rajya Sabha on September 7, Antony declared, “The date of birth of General V K Singh, Chief of Army Staff, has been maintained as May 10,1950 at the time of his selection as Corps Commander in 2006, as well as his subsequent promotions as Army Commander in 2008 and Chief of the Army Staff in 2010.”
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Austin wrote:
Right now what the government says is I know I am right but let us take this in a dignified matter they cant get it both ways, MOD cant be right and vks cant be right either ?

regarding government never underestimate GOI , right now IB would be very busy collecting all the information that they need and keeping an eye on VKS and in the last occasion government used RAW/IB to prepare the ground before they eased out bhagwat.
I am disinclined, in contravention of your view, to believe what the government is saying.

And while I am sure you are keen on imagining "RAW/IB" (what does R&AW have to do with it anyway) collecting things on General VK Singh, let us not forget that this is just a figment of your imagination, and therefore, even less credible than the news reports which you choose to disbelieve.

The matter is a simple one. Conduct a thorough enquiry and reveal the truth.

Now as ChackoJoseph pointed out, given Antony's importance to govt, lets hope noone cooks anything up.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by anjan »

Austin wrote: Right now what the government says is I know I am right but let us take this in a dignified matter they cant get it both ways, MOD cant be right and vks cant be right either ?

regarding government never underestimate GOI , right now IB would be very busy collecting all the information that they need and keeping an eye on VKS and in the last occasion government used RAW/IB to prepare the ground before they eased out bhagwat.
If you say "dignified" once more this will seriously start resembling the TSP thread. What is dignified about this whole business? Its stinks up and down and there is no way to 'dignify' it.

The IB does tap the phones of most senior offrs of the forces. It's an open secret. It's part of the paranoia cottage industry that the IAS runs. I'm uncertain what bearing this has on this issue though unless you believe there is going to be leaked tape of the general sobbing and confessing he was wrong all along?
ASPuar
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

IB taps the phones of almost all senior government officials... its no big deal.
eklavya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

I have a huge amount of respect for Dr. Manmohan Singh, but in this case his government has got it very very wrong. The stupid article in India Today by that 2-penny journalist has undermined whatever little credibility the Government had on this issue. The Government needs to find itself a face saving solution (like appointing an independent commission or such like), otherwise more indignity will be heaped on the Government on this issue. An honourable person like Dr. Manmohan Singh should be a natural ally of Gen. VKS, establish the truth, and move on to respectively govern and protect the country. This controversy should not be happening.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

10 to 1, the mishandling of this entire situation is the result of the defence ministry mandarins taking a hand. The politicians have nothing apparent to gain by precipitating this matter.
chaanakya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

ASPuar wrote:
chaanakya wrote: Come on Chetak. Coup on DOB issue. Unlikely. Afterall IA is largely SDRE. :twisted:
Lol, Sir Indian Army has a vast representation from the land of the five rivers, just like the Army of certain of our porcine neighbours.. :twisted:

Of course, Chetak is just joking, but agree 100% with his comments. No government in its right mind will ever attempt to pull a Bhagwat on the Indian Army. And of course, Bhagwat really didnt get a lot of sympathy amongst the services, as he made his unceremonious exit. The BJP largely brushed that matter under the carpet as an embarrassing aside.
Well I could be mistaken.I thought on brf Indians are SDRE and pakistanis are TFTA .We know the path taken by each. DOB or any other issue , coup would be impossible.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

ASPuar wrote:10 to 1, the mishandling of this entire situation is the result of the defence ministry mandarins taking a hand. The politicians have nothing apparent to gain by precipitating this matter.
This case would not have reached this stage without senior political figures having some interest in the outcome. The bureaucrats have demonstrated time and again their capability for putting their egos and self interest ahead of the national interest, but they only ever get away with it due to political support.

There is no question whatsoever of a coup. But a Government that does not treat even the Army Chief with dignity and respect will weaken the State. Justice must be done and seen to be done.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Chaankya, of course any talk of a coup is nonsense.

But ask a defence ministry mandarin. To hear them talk, the main threat to India isnt China, or Pakistan, or any other external actor. Its the Indian Army itself!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Thank god the Indian Army has a chief with a pair of spheres between his legs, and cant be bribed with the governorship of some minor state. Sam Manekshaw once said that the highest honour that any soldier can aspire to, is to be the COAS. Anything after that is unnecessary, because he has already achieved the greatest thing that any military man should ever want.

I hope and pray that the truth will prevail in this case. MoD has made an unseemly, and utterly undignified mess of the whole damned thing.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ry/449657/

Army chief readies for legal battle with ministry


Ajai Shukla / New Delhi
September 19, 2011, 0:33 IST

The growing tension between the army and the ministry of defence (MoD) over when the army chief, General V K Singh, will retire could be heading for a sensational climax. Business Standard has learned from sources close to the army chief that he will definitely go to court if defence minister A K Antony turns down his official petition requesting that his birth date be recognised as May 10, 1951.

Driving Gen Singh’s decision to escalate the face-off is his annoyance at the defence minister’s statement to Parliament on September 7, in which Antony said the army chief was “left with 8 months and 23 days of service as on date”. Given that Antony is still considering Gen Singh’s petition, the army chief sees this unvarnished answer as an indication that Antony will reject his appeal and humiliate him in the process.

“The chief feels he has been pushed into a corner; he has no choice but to fight for his military reputation. And, he knows that his legal case is watertight,” says a close personal associate of the army chief, who is assisting him in this matter.
Antony’s statement to Parliament has already proven nettlesome, with a Rajya Sabha MP, Mohan Singh, challenging the defence minister for allegedly falsely stating in Parliament that Gen Singh was promoted on the basis of a date of birth of May 10, 1950. The MoD acknowledges this challenge and says it is examining the matter.

This controversy stems from the army’s inability to detect or reconcile, for 35 years, that two key branches in army headquarters maintained conflicting dates of birth for Gen V K Singh.

The Military Secretary’s Branch (MS Branch), which deals with postings and promotions, has May 10, 1950. The Adjutant General’s Branch (AG’s Branch), which is the record-keeping authority, has May 10, 1951.

The MoD has ruled that the general was born in 1950; hence, he will retire on 31st May 2012 after reaching the age of 62 that month. But the army chief has officially petitioned Antony that his birth year be considered 1951, on the basis of multiple documents that he submitted four decades ago (including his matriculation and birth certificates). If his plea is accepted Gen Singh would serve till March 31, 2013, when he completes three years as the chief.

In concluding that 1950 should be regarded as Gen Singh’s birth year, the MoD has argued that the army chief had himself accepted that date. Now Business Standard has accessed confidential documents that show this acceptance was under pressure. The documents illustrate that Gen Singh was explicitly threatened by the MS Branch to accept that he was born in 1950; and that the MoD had serious concerns over the branch’s handling of this issue.

When Gen Singh was being evaluated for appointment as the commander of the eastern army in Kolkata, the MS Branch sent his documents to the MoD in 2007. On December 14, 2007, the key MoD official dealing with promotions and postings of senior officers, Joint Secretary (G) Bimal Julka, wrote a secret letter — number MoD ID No. 11(9)/2007-D(MS) — to the military secretary, Lt Gen PR Gangadharan. Julka asked how the MS Branch had changed Gen V K Singh’s date of birth from 1951 to 1950.

Echoeing what Gen Singh says today, Julka demands to know, “It is seen… that the officer has all along indicated his date of birth as 10.5.1951. Hence, the basis for officer’s date of birth as 10.5.1950 may please be indicated.”

Julka’s question triggered a flurry of letters from the MS Branch to Gen Singh (then a lieutenant general commanding the prestigious 2 Corps), demanding an unequivocal written commitment that he was born in 1950. When Gen Singh demurred, the MS Branch issued a bald threat. In wireless signal number 388025/2008/MS(X) dated January 24, 2008, the MS Branch demanded an unconditional and immediate commitment to a 1950 birth year, adding, “If reply not recd (received) by 1000 hrs (hours) on January 25, 2008, action deemed appropriate will be taken.”

Gen Singh believed that “action deemed appropriate” was an MS Branch threat to scuttle his candidature as eastern army commander. The same day he sent off his acceptance to MS Branch, but continued a testy correspondence, protesting this demand.

The MS Branch lost no time in triumphantly telling the MoD’s Julka that Singh had accepted 1950 as his birth year. But it was hardly possible for the MS Branch to hide its own faults.

In a letter number A/45751/Army Cdr/MS(X) dated January 25, 2008, addressed to the MoD’s Bimal Julka, Lt Gen Gangadharan admitted that two birth dates existed “because of lack of coordination between the two branches (MS and AG’s) at that point in time…. The officer had also been mentioning 10 May 1951 in all his ACRs (Annual Confidential Records) but the MS Branch did not seek clarification/reconcile his date of birth.”

The MoD could see that Gen Singh’s acceptance of 1950 was half-hearted. In a confidential letter — MoD ID No. 11(9)/2007-D(MS) dated January 25, 2008 — Bimal Julka wrote to the MS, “On perusal of the letter of Lt Gen V K Singh to MS dated 24 Jan 2008, it is evident that the doubts regarding his date of birth remain unanswered.” Julka demanded “a detailed enquiry into the matter to find out the correct date of birth of the officer, immediately in consultation with AG’s Branch”.

The AG’s Branch responded on January 30, 2008, stating that “the date of birth of IC-24173 Lt Gen V K Singh has always remained May 10, 1951. This has been corroborated in all of the documents on file of the officer in MP Directorate (which maintains officers’ records). Copies of the same have already been endorsed to MS Branch.”

But the enquiry demanded by the MoD was never completed, say sources close to Gen Singh. The army chief, Gen Deepak Kapoor, was not on good terms with Gen V K Singh, a relationship that practically broke down when Gen Singh, then in Kolkata, went after generals allegedly close to Gen Kapoor in the Sukhna land scam. And, so the matter remains to be resolved to this day.
Surya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

not surprisingly shows Unnithan's article in poor light

what a sad change
Gaur
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Gaur »

Posting in IA thread though this article is relevant to all 3 services.

Mamata's patriotic song becomes swansong for ex-servicemen
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Mamata-s- ... 47163.aspx
Former railway minister Mamata Bannerjee's patriotic song for the country's armed forces and promise of railway jobs for ex-servicemen became quite a hook for many a battle-scarred ex-soldier. But now they would like to make it their swansong. Lured by the promise of a permanent job, ex-servicemen responded to a railway recruitment drive across its divisions earlier this year, in the chimeric hope of a rewarding new career.

When they finally got their appointment letters in June, however, they were shocked to find that they had been placed as cleaners, waiters, loaders, and in other menial positions.
chetak
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Surya wrote:not surprisingly shows Unnithan's article in poor light

what a sad change

This of course begs the question.......

Who or what motivated unnithan, a two bit hack with a scant concern for the truth, to write such a malicious story about a serving Army Chief??

Was it the urge to support fellow villager antony??
chetak
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ASPuar wrote:Chaankya, of course any talk of a coup is nonsense.

But ask a defence ministry mandarin. To hear them talk, the main threat to India isnt China, or Pakistan, or any other external actor. Its the Indian Army itself!

Guys, talk of a coup was just a sarcastic joke. :lol:

The IA is far too disciplined and loyal to do this but for some time now they have reached the end of their tether at the ill advised onslaught from the motivated IAS lobby who would just love to pull another bhagwat, sneakily from behind the scenes, as in the actual bhagwat case.

Incidentally, if this were pakiland, unnithan would have long washed up in some canal with obvious signs of torture. :evil: The press here simply do not know how to use their freedom in a constructive way.
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