INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

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Mihir
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir »

RajitO wrote:
Mihir wrote:Oh, it gets worse. The take-off and landing paths intersect, so aircraft can't take off and land simultaneously.
:shock: ...beg your pardon? Is there an expectation that a carrier does simultaneous launch and recoveries??!! Do not pass GO, Do not collect $2 million, Go straight to carrier school. :D
Indeed there is. It's one of the reasons angled decks exist in the first place. If you're looking to maintain the kind of operational tempo that comes with the sea domination mission, it's a critical requirement. Khan's carriers can do it, the Foch and Clemenceu could do it, the Charles de Gaulle was supposed to do it but bad design got in the way, and the Kuznetsov can do it. So when the Vik, which is being touted as India's first 'propah' carrier lacks the capability, one has to ask why.

TL;DR: Yes :mrgreen:
RajitO wrote:Now we need a cat for a recovery? Simultaneous launch and recoveries?
Yes. A cat shortens the takeoff run and frees up deck space, which makes simultaneous launch and recovery possible. Now that wasn't so difficult, was it?
RajitO wrote:I am sorry but to see the stuff defence journalists get called on this forum and then to read such posts is positively embarrassing. :oops:
Here's a suggestion to address that: leave. At the very least, we'll be spared the misery of wading through the snark and superciliousness to see if you actually have a point every time you hit the submit button.
Last edited by Mihir on 28 Nov 2013 00:26, edited 2 times in total.
NRao
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

If you take a holistic look at the entire refurbishment of the Gorshkov/Vikram,the capabilities of the aircraft embarked,fully modernised and upgraded versions of the MIG-29,with further upgrade potential in the future,and the quantum leap in performance and sea control capabilities over our Harrier carrier the Viraat,we would see what a great asset we have got.That too at a very reasonable cost.
The MiG-29Ks would have gone with any carrier, so it is of no use bringing that into the picture. Heck they are supposed to be deployed on the Vikrant too.

So, then the question becomes could India have got a *better ship* (does not mean that the Vicky is bad - although I think it is badly designed) for about the same price in the same time frame.

I think the Russians could have done that job. They did it for the Vicky, did they not? So, a better designed ship was well within their capability too.

And, imagine that the IN has to live with the drawbacks of the design for the next 30-40 years. Why?
NRao
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

I think the Vicky should have been dumped once the Russians could not meet the $800 million mark. She still can be.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

the beam of the ship is the crucial limiter to how much you can widen. 39m on the cavour . 31m in the kiev class ship. ~50m in nimitz. 38m in the laioning

its a miracle they have been able to make it a carrier.

the last time someone attempted this feat was the redoubtable IJN Akagi below. it has 3 flight decks - 1 for landing and 2 for takeoff, all at different levels :rotfl:
this was later made 1 level.
Image

however she was the flagship of Adm Nagumo during the pearl harbour attack & midway and part of the IJN raid on Sri lanka where she handed the brits a real mauling ... so I guess never underestimate the "mongrels" over the tfta pedigreed breeds. Akagi was sunk in midway.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Image
Singha
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

for the size the QE2 has a really impressive deck space if the above is accurate...truly a next-gen break the mould design.
Izumi is 50% bigger than Hyuga and our Vikrant should be similar to CDG deck area.
NRao
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Was reading that when a plane leaves the angled deck it achieves around 130 mph. This means that they have to select a plane that does not stall at those low speeds.
for the size the QE2 has a really impressive deck space if the above is accurate...truly a next-gen break the mould design.
Izumi is 50% bigger than Hyuga and our Vikrant should be similar to CDG deck area.
The QE2 should be restricted to the JSF tho'. No CAT. no AR.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_28041 »

Compared to the same tonnage carries, how small the deck space of Vikramaditya looks...
Big on weight but less area for planes....
Our own IAC which is almost the same size has a much larger deck area which should be able to support a larger number of planes..
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23364 »

One data point that might be useful in this thread is how much did the Liaoning refurbishment cost the Chinese?

It might not be available but would serve as a good data point to understand whether we were robbed, over-charged or we got a deal.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

Mihir wrote: Here's a suggestion to address that: leave. At the very least, we'll be spared the misery of wading through the snark and superciliousness to see if you actually have a point every time you hit the submit button.
You and the gent after you with the "cats for recovery" gem clearly live in an alternate universe where Wikipedia and god knows what else fuels your knowledge.

Don't kid yourself that my comments were meant for your consumption. There is an old saying up north "Samajhne waale samajh gayein hain...". The fact that you can post drivel and then continue to defend it is unsurprising.

Nice exchanging pleasantries, until of course you come up with another gem which has to be rebutted, for the sake of the thread.
Last edited by member_23455 on 27 Nov 2013 22:58, edited 1 time in total.
suryag
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by suryag »

I am curious given the displacement of Vik the lesser number of A/Cs it can carry. It clearly shows that when you change a heli carrier/Cruiser into an AC you get a sub-optimal solution. All in all we got robbed by the Russis as usual. They (re?)learnt the entire art of AC making with our money and we are left with a carrier which is not all that great. It is like paying 80lakhs for a hyundai verna :(
member_23370
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

The Kuznetsov or the joke liao what ever can barely carry 40 plans. The Kuz usually carries Su-33 and if J-15 is what chinese plan then rest assured it cannot carry more than 35-40 total. Its only because Mig-29K is smaller that Kuz can carry almost 30+ else with Su-33/25 they are limited to under 30 with 12 choppers.

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/ ... rrier.html
Mihir
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir »

RajitO wrote:
Mihir wrote: Here's a suggestion to address that: leave. At the very least, we'll be spared the misery of wading through the snark and superciliousness to see if you actually have a point every time you hit the submit button.
You and the gent after you with the "cats for recovery" gem clearly live in an alternate universe where Wikipedia and god knows what else fuels your knowledge.

Don't kid yourself that my comments were meant for your consumption. There is an old saying up north "Samajhne waale samajh gayein hain...". The fact that you can post drivel and then continue to defend it is unsurprising.

Nice exchanging pleasantries, until of course you come up with another gem which has to be rebutted, for the sake of the thread.
Ah, the good ol' personal attack. When called out, there's always that option to fall back upon, I s'pose. Never gets stale if done creatively, but that requires wit and intelligence. :P
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Post by Philip »

Again,one has to understand the chronology of the deal.those who can remember that far,know that there were few if any options.RN Illustrious carriers,smaller than the Hermes/Viraat itself,which could only operate Sea Harriers,the ancien Clemenceau,with equally ancien Super Etendards,rejected even by Brazil.There was no Cavour,Juan Carlos ,etc. available as well.Building a new carrier for the IN in Russia would've at that time taken far more estimated time than refurbishing the Gorshkov and added significantly to the costs.Also remember that the carriers were built in the Ukraine,which became independent after the Sov.Union collapsed,and they couldn't build a new carrier for us too.There were if I recollect another one or two Kiev class sister ships of the Gorshkov.been tougher at bargaining,we could've got two for the price of one! In fact,I saw sev. pics of many warships of the once great Sov. fleet being broken up at Alang.

The Chinese cannot be compared.They will spend any amount of money to get what they desire.In fact,they bought up almost every carrier that was being scrapped,from the Melbourne,the Vikrant's sister ship,the Kiev and the Minsk,the Baku/Gorshkov's sister ships.They bought the Varyag for scrap value,ostensibly to turn into a floating casino at Macau.Great big Chinko lie.Few believed them.The entire ship has been virtually rebuilt,plus they also bought the drawings for the Ulyanov class carriers,3 of which are reportedly being built in China,the first already under construction.China has studied carrier aviation for decades.The Varyag/Liaoning is currently undertaking regular sea trials.It is only a matter of time before sea trials of aircraft are undertaken on a regular basis.There will be extra urgency as the Vikram has just been delivered to the IN.

I personally am a great believer in STOVL aircraft for carriers ,esp. in the IN context.They are far simpler to operate from flat tops,no cats,arrestor wires and the extra power req. for operating cats.In fact the Soviets had eevloped a better aircraft than the Yak-38,the Yak-41/141,which Lockheed bought into and used the etch to develop their STOVL fighter ....the JSF!

Wik:
Yak-41 or Yak-141

From April 1991, various kinds of rolling take-off and run-on landings were performed on normal runways and also "ski-jump" ramps at the lift jet center at Saky. Throughout its testing, the aircraft demonstrated excellent combat maneuvers.[1] Chief test pilot Sinitsyn went on to set twelve new world class records, but as the Yak-41 designation was classified, the records were submitted under the fictitious name "Yak-141".[1] As a result, the previously unknown aircraft came to be known in the west as the "Yak-141".

The design was initially designated the Yak-41M by the Soviet military. Once testing commenced, and the two prototypes began accumulating numerous world class records, it became necessary to invent a designation for use in the west, as the name Yak-41M was classified. The designation Yak-141 was selected, and it was by this name that the aircraft became known to western allies, though officially the aircraft's designation remained Yak-41M within the Soviet military. In 1991 Lockheed-Martin entered into partnership with Yakovlev to further develop an aircraft they had always known as the Yak-141. Largely as a result of this agreement, by 1992 Yakovlev changed the aircraft's designation to Yak-141 for the two flyable prototypes. Series production in Russia could further change its designation.[1]
Cooperation with Lockheed

Following the announcement by the CIS on September 1991 that it could no longer fund development of the Yak-41M, Yakovlev entered into discussions with several foreign partners who could help fund the program. Lockheed Corporation, which was in the process of developing the X-35 for the US Joint Strike Fighter program, stepped forward, and with their assistance 48-2 was displayed at the Farnborough Airshow in September 1992. Yakovlev announced that they had reached an agreement with Lockheed for funds of $385 to $400 million for three new prototypes and an additional static test aircraft to test improvements in design and avionics. Planned modifications for the proposed Yak-41M included an increase in STOL weight to 21,500 kg (47,400 lb). One of the prototypes would have been a dual-control trainer. Though no longer flyable, both 48-2 and 48-3 were exhibited at the 1993 Moscow airshow. The partnership began in late 1991, though it was not publicly revealed by Yakovlev until 6 September 1992, and was not revealed by Lockheed until June 1994.[1]
Just as the RN has found that the STOVL version of the JSF fits the bill best for its requirements,so should the IN pursue the option of acquiring a STOVL fighter in the future.Perhaps the JSF once its performance has been evaluated in the field,oer even a new design based upon the Yak-141 or a development of the FGFA.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir »

suryag wrote:I am curious given the displacement of Vik the lesser number of A/Cs it can carry. It clearly shows that when you change a heli carrier/Cruiser into an AC you get a sub-optimal solution. All in all we got robbed by the Russis as usual. They (re?)learnt the entire art of AC making with our money and we are left with a carrier which is not all that great. It is like paying 80lakhs for a hyundai verna :(
Sub-optimal, yes. Robbery? Dunno. For all its flaws and the headaches it has caused, it still appears to be a decent deal at $2.3 billion.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

suryag wrote:I am curious given the displacement of Vik the lesser number of A/Cs it can carry. It clearly shows that when you change a heli carrier/Cruiser into an AC you get a sub-optimal solution. All in all we got robbed by the Russis as usual. They (re?)learnt the entire art of AC making with our money and we are left with a carrier which is not all that great. It is like paying 80lakhs for a hyundai verna :(
Well at $800 million it was worth it (I guess). At more than $1.5 billion I would have gone back to the drawing board.

Also noticed that if they could have broadened the ship some, made the island a little smaller and moved it back, then they could have placed one of the takeoff points to the north of the island and may just have been able to conduct simultaneous operations.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

While the different aircraft inventory mixes will become clearer over time for the Vikramaditya (personally am intrigued by INAS 300 crest featuring prominently in pics), in times of combat a few more airframes can be squeezed in with a fair bit of improvisation. The logistics tail though becomes more complex.

As the IN becomes more comfortable with the ship the usual jugaad should kick in. We may not have built the ship but we have a longer history of operating carriers than the Russians, and better trained/motivated personnel than them.

At some point in this thread maybe folks should start treating it from "It's a ba***rd, but it's our ba***rd" perspective.
member_23455
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

Mihir wrote: Here's a suggestion to address that: leave. At the very least, we'll be spared the misery of wading through the snark and superciliousness to see if you actually have a point every time you hit the submit button.

Ah, the good ol' personal attack. When called out, there's always that option to fall back upon, I s'pose. Never gets stale if done creatively, but that requires wit and intelligence. :P
You chose the language of communication, and have turned victim. :?:

Since it's important that you be called out for your egregious "factual" posts, please dazzle us with you superior wit and intelligence by providing, from the reams of video footage available on the Internet of real life carrier operations of:
1. "Simultaneous" takeoffs and landings from a carrier.
2. A catapult being used to recover an aircraft.

If you cannot do the same, heed your own advice and leave the thread. Deal?
NRao
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Mihir
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir »

RajitO wrote:
Mihir wrote:Ah, the good ol' personal attack. When called out, there's always that option to fall back upon, I s'pose. Never gets stale if done creatively, but that requires wit and intelligence. :P
You chose the language of communication, and have turned victim. :?:
Turned victim? Don't let your imagination get the better of you, I just pointed it out. In any case, your snark and supercilious attitude is a fact and has been pointed out by others as well. Also, are you arguing that you were actually making a relevant point in the quoted post? :eek: Enlighten us as to what exactly that point was, dear sir, and I shall gladly take my words back.

On the other hand, to argue that someone "lives in an alternate universe", without addressing any of the arguments he presented without evidence of the same is a textbook case of ad hominem, dontchya think? All this after all the trouble I took to paraphrase that wall of text into a simple summary clearly designated by the letters "TL;DR". It hurts, man, it truly does.
RajitO wrote:Since it's important that you be called out for your egregious "factual" posts, please dazzle us with you superior wit and intelligence by providing, from the reams of video footage available on the Internet of real life carrier operations of:
1. "Simultaneous" takeoffs and landings from a carrier.
TIL the presence of videos on the internet is the only proof acceptable on internet fora.

I know that drab books and publications other such crap won't meet your high standards 'like reams of video footage' will, but I'll try anyway.

Almanac of American Military History, Volume 1, by Spencer Tucker
The introduction of an angled flight deck revolutionized carrier design, allowing simultaneous launch and recovery operations
U.S. Aircraft Carriers: An Illustrated Design History, by Norman Friedman
With the post-war advent of the angled deck and simultaneous launch and recovery operations, the full deck load of aircraft can no longer be parked
Rearming for the Cold War 1945 - 1960, by Elliot V. Converse III
This angled deck arrangement created more deck space, permitted the simultaneous launch and recovery of aircraft, and made flight operations much safer
RajitO wrote:2. A catapult being used to recover an aircraft.
Painless Reading Comprehension by Darolyn E. Jones. Available for Rs. 195 onlee on Flipkart. Buy. Read. Attain Enlightenment. Then read NRao's post again. Win. You're welcome.
Last edited by Mihir on 28 Nov 2013 02:02, edited 1 time in total.
Shalav
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Shalav »

Referring to an earlier comment quoting Wikipedia and simultaneous lauch/recovery. I do hope members realize the faster launch/recovery mentioned in Wikipedia != simultaneous Launch/recovery.

A long time ago I had posted in great detail on the USN surge effort across 3 carriers during GW 1, in the Naval thread. Even then IIRC with an avg of around 200 sorties / day - there were no instances of simultaneous launch and recovery, and that has been the maximum number of sorties achieved by any carrier till date. This surge sortie rate works out to one launch or trap every 4-5 minutes. That's plenty of time to clear the BAR area / launch your next fighter if you want to go that route.

In practice there would have been 2 /3 launches using cats. then another 2/3 launches within a 3 minute window and so on till the launches were complete. Then recovery would occur at the end of the mission with the airframes being trapped on the single BAR area. This would take the longest, since it can only be done one airframe at a time.

In effect your bottleneck on high sortie rate is not the ability to launch and trap simultaneously, but the ability to recover launched airframes in the quickest possible times. If you really want to study efficiency you should take a look at how quickly trapped airframes can be moved out and the barrier wires redeployed in trap position on the Vicky. That would be enlightening for all of us.

About the only time you may want to have simultaneous launch/recovery is on disputed seas and contested airspace. That's when you may need your 'ready 2 or ready 5' fighters launching without waiting to clear trapping aircraft, still it would not be a very great factor.

The ability to launch/recover simultaneously is an advantage if you have it, but its not going to win the battle for you. In other words a 'nice to have' feature. Whats really important w.r.t. launch/recovery is sortie rate.

While a big thing has been made of this ability by naval designers and commanders, they really don't like to discuss their sortie rates, where a simultaneous launch/recovery capability provides no advantage and was never used, even during the highest per day sortie rates ever to date.
member_23455
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

Mihir,

Ever heard the phrase "bookish knowledge". That is why I had asked you for video of "real-life carrier operations", because that would illustrate the gulf in what you think you know from books and what happens out there. Picture speaks a thousand words and a moving picture a hundred thousand.

Of course had the books also been better written, such transmission and distribution errors of "simultaneous"-ness would not have happened.

Let me try and illustrate this with a parallel. In the link below:

http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/military ... -data.html

It says the rate of fire is 800 RPM. Has an MP-5 ever fired 800 rounds in a minute as the "books" say the should? No. For real world reasons.

The fact that you deflected the "cat for recovery" point though shows that even books have limitations though.

Congrats on your win - maybe you won some legal argument, but lost the bigger opportunity to learn. :)
Last edited by member_23455 on 28 Nov 2013 00:56, edited 1 time in total.
nachiket
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by nachiket »

NRao wrote:Was reading that when a plane leaves the angled deck it achieves around 130 mph. This means that they have to select a plane that does not stall at those low speeds.
How can the speed be independent of the aircraft? Given the same takeoff distance, a Mig-29 will accelerate much faster than a Jaguar for example. It would be about the same in case you are using a catapult though.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Shalav »

The ski deck creates a higher AoA, which means greater lift and hence lower T/O velocity. This could not be done with a flat deck without a catapult as changing the AoA at lower than designed criteria would lead to a wing stall.

A cat. does this on a flat deck by accelerating the airframe to its designed T/O velocity rather than changing the angle of attack.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

Shalav wrote: While a big thing has been made of this ability by naval designers and commanders, they really don't like to discuss their sortie rates, where a simultaneous launch/recovery capability provides no advantage and was never used, even during the highest per day sortie rates ever to date.
There are many other reasons why it is never used and actually not even called by this term "simultaneous", but that is a whole different level of detail...
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Shalav »

Please enlighten - I am a good student. Always happy to add knowledge.

:)
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir »

RajitO wrote:Ever heard the phrase "bookish knowledge". That is why I had asked you for video of "real-life carrier operations"
Okay boss, let us assume the books were all wrong. Why don't you you produce a more credible source that debunks those claims and help edumacate poor ol' me? Apart from you doing the written equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "NananananaCantHearYouNanananana", I've seen precious little. Last I heard, poster "RajitO" on BRF wasn't a recognized authority in naval technology.

IOW, put up or shut up.
RajitO wrote:Let me try and illustrate this with a parallel. In the link below:
Ah, so a webpage made by a company to market their products is the same as a book (or three) that were the product of much research by their authors.
RajitO wrote:Congrats on your win - maybe you won some legal argument, but lost the bigger opportunity to learn. :)
You doth misunderstand me, sir. I learned so much today! I learned that videos are impeccable sources of information, while books are not. I learned that H&K made some seemingly exaggerated claims on their website, and therefore every book ever written was wrong wrong wrongitty wrong! Please, pretty please, keep the wisdom flowing.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Mihir sahab, Rajit ji,

We are not going anywhere. Please let it rest.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

Indranil,

Absolutely, but i would request you to put Mihir in touch with Pranay who has served on a USN Carrier. His sticks and stones comments aside it is an opportunity to learn and not put misleading stuff on the thread.

Feel free to delete as felt suitable.
Last edited by member_23455 on 28 Nov 2013 01:23, edited 1 time in total.
Mihir
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir »

Hi Shalav,

I don't disagree with what you wrote. The capability to launch and recover aircraft simultaneously doesn't *have* to be used every time. In and of itself, I understand that launching and recovering aircraft at the exact same time is not critically important.

But having the capability allows you to put an aircraft or two on hot standby while recovering others. The problem with the Vikramaditya is that this cannot be done. You basically have to clear the deck, recover aircraft, park them, then put new aircraft the in position for take-off, prep them, and then launch. All this takes time. The fact that you may have to clear the deck before take-off because of the absence of jet blast deflectors the process even more time consuming. And time is not a luxury we may have in wartime.

The French are experiencing this exact thing with the Charles de Gaulle. It simply cannot generate sorties at the rate it was supposed to when it was conceived.

Does this mean that simultaneous launch and recovery is an overriding requirement that we just can't do without? No. However, it is a flaw that negatively impacts the overall operational capability of the Vik. When one looks at other design decisions, like retaining the elevator in the middle of the deck, keeping the island where it was while adding more deck space to starboard, one gets a measure of how difficult it is to convert an aircraft carrying cruiser to a flat-top, and how it results in a solution that is nowhere near as efficient as a from-scratch design would be.
Last edited by Mihir on 28 Nov 2013 01:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

member_23455
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

Shalav wrote:Please enlighten - I am a good student. Always happy to add knowledge.

:)
Shalav, I think I may be one who'll be doing the learning as you seem to have a good handle on the USN side of the house:-). Is there an email ID I can reach you at and we can exchange thoughts?
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Shalav »

Hmm...

Mihir

I am unaware of CdG's sortie rate issues, but your paragraph construction implies that a simultaneous Launch/recovery capability would correct this low sortie rate. Since I am not up-to-date on this, and you have mentioned this, I am assuming you do have the figures at hand. Please let me know the following for CdG

Designed normal sortie rate
Actual normal sortie rate

Designed surge sortie rate
Actual surge sortie rate

That would give us numbers to actually figure out what's what, rather than flail about discussing imprecise descriptions on the internet.

Regarding the Vicky, again I am not really aware of designed and normal sortie rates and turnaround times between launch and recovery. Please let me know if you are? Till some information is actually available for analysis, all discussions is speculative conjecture. Even the IN has no precise idea at this time. The carrier is still being worked up.

Regarding its island, that placement was dismaying, I understand it was due to the boiler room and other trim requirements. I was however hoping they would make the best of it and use the starboard space for airframe taxing which could have improved turnaround, but observing the pictures during the later part of the construction i noticed they put in a boat and crane there. So no joy in that department either! Again I understand it was due to trim and wing clearance requirements.

The Vicky was always a slapped together effort to get over the carrier gap for the IN. It's aircraft lifts are in the middle of the deck, which will hamper launch/recovery/turnaround at all times. Both the long and short T/O positions are within the BAR area. It would never have had simultaneous launch/recovery capabilities. There is no point criticizing it for a capability it could never have had in practicality. Anyone who had seen the initial artists impressions of it would have reconciled to that fact immediately. For its size it will carry an understrength squadron - 15 aircraft + 15 Helos.

Due to all of the above it will never ever have a high sortie rate or be a USN type super-carrier. But SO WHAT! The Viraat should have retired 3 years ago, the Vikrant is still under construction and the Vicky with a decent airwing is all we have in terms of a modern capable carrier now. Delayed or not, this carrier was necessary for the IN - both to maintain it's carrier operations expertise and re-convert from STOVL to STOBAR and thence (hopefully) to CATOBAR.

Now that she is with us I forgive all and will love her like I love all IN ships.

May she serve long and be victorious in all her battles.
Mihir
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir »

Shalav, I don't have the hard numbers, boss. Even if I did, I wouldn't be posting them to BRF! Just happened to meet and work with a few interesting people who have seen things first hand and built naval vessels for a living.

Regarding the placement of the island, I believe it had more to do with structural issues than with the placement of the boiler room. It imposes significant loads on the ship, and relocating something as big as the island would have meant altering the structure substantially.
Due to all of the above it will never ever have a high sortie rate or be a USN type super-carrier. But SO WHAT! The Viraat should have retired 3 years ago, the Vikrant is still under construction and the Vicky with a decent airwing is all we have in terms of a modern capable carrier now. Delayed or not, this carrier was necessary for the IN - both to maintain it's carrier operations expertise and re-convert from STOVL to STOBAR and thence (hopefully) to CATOBAR.
No disputing that. I've said before that for all the trouble it caused, it was still worth what we paid for it. But it is important to note that the Navy itself had initially turned it down.
Victor
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Victor »

The angled carrier deck provides a longer landing area for a given hull size so it doesn't interfere with aircraft waiting to take off. The latter are either parked in or near the landing area or waiting to come up on lifts which are also usually in or near the landing area. The uncertainties during landing (overshoots, crashes etc) make a "ready deck" impossible while landing is in progress so it is practically impossible for a plane to take off while another plane is landing which is why it is never done even though it may theoretically be "possible". This is true even for the biggest carriers like the Nimitz class.
Shalav
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Shalav »

Here's another thought - EMALS could potentially be fitted to a ski ramp. If so, a Vicky with this retrofit suddenly is more dangerous. I am hopeful but not optimistic this could happen during the Vicky's service lifetime.

Too many variables. Will the US ever share thus tech with us? If not, will we ever research the tech for it based on a market size of 3 hulls + 3 spare? The Vicky never had a steam cat. hence never had a dedicated boiler for cat. steam, so will there be room to add another boiler to generate the required electricity?

:-(
NRao
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

I do not think anyone was thinking of modifying the Vicky. It is what it is.

However, she will impact ground reality and when the challenges become robust the thinking will have to change. Nothing a ship can do, that is the nature of this business.

_______________________

On simultaneous operations, I think a better term would be ripple operations, for "simultaneous" does not mean everything happening at the same time. As a FYI only, the latest from China:

Three J-15 fighters can take off simultaneously from Liaoning carrier

On sorties, very interesting question, but next level of detail. Much out there but all seems to be only talk - the serious numbers are probably not in open source. However, there is talk of sorties being impacted by how close a ship is to the target (closer means less sorties, capability of the opponent (less capable, less sorties), etc). Interesting.
NRao
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

For what it is worth:
Will the US ever share thus tech with us?
Sept 19, 2013 :: US offers help for next generation aircraft carrier.
Avinandan
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Avinandan »

Noob Pooch : If it is almost certain that IAC-2 would possess catapults, then shouldn't we look at the big picture and have some plans ready for a navalised CABS AEW ? How feasible it is for an Embraer ERJ 145 (with better landing gear) to do operations from IAC-2 ?
NRao
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

And folding wings.

I would go with whatever the US has to offer.
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