PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

[Austin]

Most likely I expect the FGFA and MTA deal would be signed during Putin's visit both the Indian and Russian official are hush about it and dont want to revel any thing before it gets inked , also some last minute barganing going on by both countries.

Would also be interesting to see if India and Russia co-operate on civilian program like Superjet and MS-21.

Among Civilian program likely more deal for Nuclear Reactor and new Frame Work Agreement for Strategic Co-operation.

Rupee-Rouble trade and co-operation within BRICS framework could also be expected.

Next year India is expected to join SCO as full member so may be some talk on that front.

Again we need to wait and see

[deejay]

The Russians are hiding from prying Indian eyes. Surely something is not right with the FGFA (PAK- FA) programme. Else why the hesitance specially when we have worked with Russians on far more sensitive projects?

[NRao]

It is not just that. Just google "India US Defense" and see the amount of articles - from foreign sources on this topic!!! It is crazy.

Even the agreement with Australia was first reported by a Australian paper. I have yet to see something substantive in an India paper.

That there is a change is a given. Question is how much and in which direction.

IMHO, there are two major events: first this Indian government - it is very different in many ways for sure, so to that extent the old experiences - IMHO - will have a lesser impact and 2) The past few weeks have been decisive - there is no room to doubt the relationship with either Japan or Australia (and there is no doubt about those two and their relationship with the US).

So, irrespective of what happens with Russia, I feel, that the die is cast as far as operational leanings. Irrespective of what happens to the FGFA the fact remains that the Indian services will lean towards this newly formed relation (that was actually rather adversarial just a few years ago). How will Russia react to that reality - I feel - will determine which way such projects will go.

[Austin]

So, irrespective of what happens with Russia, I feel, that the die is cast as far as operational leanings. Irrespective of what happens to the FGFA the fact remains that the Indian services will lean towards this newly formed relation (that was actually rather adversarial just a few years ago). How will Russia react to that reality - I feel - will determine which way such projects will go.

Time Will Tell

[NRao]

Why?

Does not the new agreement with Australia count? The comment on Quad and Diamond is an Australian thinking.

That is a huge lean.

Also, no one has talked about what transpired when Modi visited the US.

As compared to, say, five years ago, do we not find a lean towards a totally different direction?

More wait - which is OK with me - will only cement these findings. IMHO of course.

[NRao]

So, irrespective of what happens with Russia, I feel, that the die is cast as far as operational leanings. Irrespective of what happens to the FGFA the fact remains that the Indian services will lean towards this newly formed relation (that was actually rather adversarial just a few years ago). How will Russia react to that reality - I feel - will determine which way such projects will go.

Time Will Tell

Time has passed?

??????

[Austin]

^^ Wokay Take this Geo-Polictics Decison to Strategic Dhaga , Here just PAK-FA/FGFA news and discussions please


KRET to develop next-generation avionics on the basis of radio-photonics

Concern Radioelectronic Technologies (KRET, part of Rostec State Corporation) and the Advanced Research Foundation signed an agreement on the implementation of scientific and technological project “Development of an active phased array based on radio-photonics” (“ROFAR”). The project includes the creation of a new specialized laboratory and the development of a multipurpose technology, which will be used in development of next-generation radars and electronic warfare systems. The amount of investments in the project is around 680 million rubles, the press service of KRET reports.

“Nanophotonics - a promising research area, which soon will define the vector of development of dual-use technology in the developed countries, - CEO of KRET, Nikolai Kolesov, said. – Cutting-edge technologies will allow us to create efficient and advanced transmitter-receivers, radar systems, electronic intelligence systems and EW suites, which will replace the existing products”.

The laboratory will be opened on the basis of KRET concern using test benches of a number of KRET companies: Fazotron-NIIR, RPKB, GRPZ, KNIRTI, NPO Ekran, etc. It will be fitted with all the equipment required to carry out scientific studies and “clean room” mode (concentration of dust, microorganisms and chemical fumes reduced to minimum values) will be implemented there. Doctor of Technical Sciences, Deputy General Designer of Fazotron-NIIR, Dmitry Zaitsev, was appointed the head of the laboratory. It is planned that 680 million rubles will be allocated from the federal budget in order to implement the project.

“The development and production of a next-generation active phased antenna array (its major components will be developed using the principles of radio-photonics) will be one of the major areas of “ROFAR” project. These components will help reduce the weight of the equipment 1.5-3 times, increase its reliability and efficiency 2-3 times, as well as dramatically increase the scanning speed and resolution. In case of successful implementation of the project, the technology will open up new possibilities for improving the characteristics of a “smart skin” used on the latest Russian-produced helicopters and airplanes. The system of ROFAR elements integrated into a fuselage and distributed all over its area will allow a crew to receive a coherent radar picture within a radius of 360 degrees, assure work of antenna systems in active and passive radar modes, allow using all kinds of jamming countermeasures, hidden and jamming-resistant transmission, assure communication with ground facilities and other aircraft, friend or for identification, etc.,” KRET explained.

On the basis of new materials and components developed using principles of photonics KRET will implement advanced technologies for production of powerful light-sensitive detectors and semiconducting laser modules. The active phased antenna array technologies are widely used in development of radars for advanced fighters. So far the concern has already developed radars with active phased antenna array for MiG-35, Zhuk-AE, FGA and FGA 35 aircraft. This technology allows an aircraft to track a large number of targets due to electronic control of the beam’s position. The radars are able to detect and acquire sea, ground and air targets, define the target’s class, type and size. They may also be used for navigation purposes and in order to target high-precision weapons.

[Cosmo_R]

Time Will Tell

I thought one told time.

[Austin]

Youl guys are too edgy and anxious and I can bet India would take decision in its own interest which is it wont side with any party just work with all for its own benefit as is been the case so far and been the hallmark of Indian Foreign Policy across party in power

[Cosmo_R]

Or fast tracking AMCA,
India was using FGFA to get an insight into 5th gen tech, via the joint development route.

The JSF option of direct buy will still be an inferior option - 0 learning value.
The russians want something more, money or otherwise. Things will be negotiated.

...

Buying JSF off the shelf is zero learning value in building one, but it is huge in terms of learning the tactics of 5Gen fighters, managing the supply chain and the strategic messaging to PRC and to the Russians.

Buying the PAK/FA/FGFA we learn a lot (again): "wish we had something that has up time as the M2K (and even LCA)" AND more importantly, that Putin has chosen a relationship with PRC over that with India. He needs the money and anything we buy he'll sell to PRC."

You learn something every day

We can still have a relationship with e Russians in areas such as SSBNs where they would be afraid to sell to PRC and where the US won't help.

Our relationship with the US need not be at the expense of the Russians just as they keep telling us their PRC relationship is not at ours.

[NRao]

India was using FGFA to get an insight into 5th gen tech, via the joint development route.

The problem as I understand it is that that "insight" is not happening. Time will tell.

However, my read is that the Russians - outside of some 200 projects under way - are unable to meet IAF needs. ?????? Could be wrong too.

The JSF option of direct buy will still be an inferior option - 0 learning value.

Apple and oranges. The JSF (which I do not think is coming), IF it comes will *not* be to gain insight into the design. But, it will assist in other areas, including fielding a true 5th Gen plane - the std today.

The russians want something more, money or otherwise. Things will be negotiated.

And, I really hope all works out. We should have a far better picture in about two weeks.

[rohitvats]

MODERATOR NOTE:

While one understands that some bit of geopolitical discussion will be an unavoidable part of this thread, the same needs to be tangential and NOT core of the substance on this thread. The idea is to discussion the PROGRAM that is FGFA. Please take the geo-political discussion to appropriate thread. Posts will be summarily deleted and posters warned for thread derailment.

[Karan M]

RV, a request, can you delete the non tech posts as well? Most of the prior few pages is the usual US vs Russia stuff.

[Austin]

New Engine Type 30: 3 -stage LPC; 5 -stage HPC (see pics) and single staged turbine. ( via Jo/Keypubs )

First 2 stages of HPC are made of titanium alloy with blisk tech , The LPC is an aluminium (CNT) martix composite, and the turbine is a nickel-based superalloy.

[NRao]

Who needs to down the FGFA?

[Austin]

Seems misplaced information , FGFA and MMRCA are separate program with their own needs , MMRCA is more like wanted yesterday and still not available while FGFA will come about in next decade in sqad service.

[rohitvats]

MODERATOR NOTE: Certain amount of thread clean-up has been done. Irrelevant posts have been deleted. Please maintain thread discipline. You've been cautioned - rohitvats.

[Austin]

Russia 5th generation fighter jet T-50 to have advanced weapons

MOSCOW, November 22. /TASS/. Advanced weapons will be produced for a Russian fifth generation fighter jet T-50 before the end of state trials, Director-General of Tactical Missiles corporation Boris Obnosov told Russian News Service radio on Saturday.

Creation of advanced weapons for a promising frontline aircraft system is one of guidelines for the corporation, he said.

“We seek to produce weapons by the end of state trials for the warplane,” Obnosov said.

Air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles are being manufactured for T-50, the corporation chief said. Jamming protected and all-weather weapons will be placed inside the fighter jet’s body with a larger fire range.

Russia may develop hypersonic weapons before end of this decade

Development of these weapons is given a priority, he said. “To create weapons with a speed exceeding Mach 4 (about 4,900 km/h) is a major task. This implies a huge scope of scientific problems,” he noted.

The corporation is working on these weapons for Russia to be in parity with many developed countries, Obnosov said.

“Weapons which will reach a speed of Mach 6-8 (about 7,350-9,800 km/h) should be produced before the end of this decade,” the corporation chief noted.

[Ankit Desai]

Can’t keep waiting for stealth fighter, India tells Russia

Russia has now been told that India cannot wait for a decade to get the FGFA. The delivery schedules should be compressed instead of IAF waiting for the FGFA till 2024-2025. The Russians will probably respond during Putin's visit

a defence ministry source said on Monday.

India is already upset with Russia for not giving its experts "full technological access" to the FGFA project despite being an equal funding partner. The final design contract, which is yet to be inked after missing the mid-2012 deadline, envisages the two countries chipping in with $5.5 billion each towards designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing.

With the 127 single-seat FGFA that IAF wants costing extra, India will spend around $25 billion on the entire project. India had already spent $295 million on it after inking the preliminary design contract with Russia in December 2010.

-Ankit

[Cosmo_R]

^^^ Its a paper airplane that we have to fund to keep Russkies happy. It will be out of date by the time we get it.

Bah! just get the AMCA and do the 6G a/c with Boeing/LM

[Niranjan]

* (potentially) sign next year
* induction 94 months after signing!!
* "if they want to sign the deal next year" ???? last chance to sign the deal? on the flip side everything else within reach - only induction time frame in question?
* pogosyan's comments (in china) did not seem to be too positive

* vicky must have some impact on the indian thinking
* mki must have provided some great insight

* russian eco has to have an impact on the decision. india will need to divest between the FGFA and the PAK-FA (an independent line in india is what is envisioned)

should have a better picture after putin leaves india in a week or so

[Austin]

In that report it says MOD has asked for compressed schedule for FGFA and Rafale

[brar_w]

Bah! just get the AMCA and do the 6G a/c with Boeing/LM

The ones that are "actually paper" airplanes at the moment? And would continue to be "paper" airplanes until the end of the decade? How is that a good idea? Unless you are joking.

[Niranjan]

In that report it says MOD has asked for compressed schedule for FGFA and Rafale

it does not seem to say anything specific about the rafale:

Negotiations for the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multirole combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale fighters, too, are stuck with France yet to accept full responsibility for the 108 of the jets to be produced in India. "MoD wants at least two of the three projects (FGFA, LCA and MMRCA) to be speeded up," said a source.

i do not recall seeing the graphics and the last para (with ref to the rafale) when i first read it.

[Austin]

Obviously they cant speed up LCA beyond what HAL can do but they can speed up Rafale and FGFA if more of these are delivered from OEM of the shelf in order to compress the time frame. Recently HAL was told to compress the time frame of MKI delivery by 2 years or by 2016

[Niranjan]

Not obvious at all. FGFA will not be OEM, for one (India has her own line and FGFA is nowhere near PAK-FA). And then there is no reason to add the LCA in the convo if it had no place.

When does Putin arrive? Does not seem to be too much time to allow to make such heavy decisions.

Something does not add up here.

[Austin]

Not obvious at all. FGFA will not be OEM, for one (India has her own line and FGFA is nowhere near PAK-FA). And then there is no reason to add the LCA in the convo if it had no place.

When does Putin arrive? Does not seem to be too much time to allow to make such heavy decisions.

Something does not add up here.

BTW are you NRao with another ID ? Something does not add up

[Philip]

France can speed up the Rafale production.It is "treading water" right now.In fact,two sqds. of Rafales -at least one,should be transferred to the IAF from French stocks,replaced by two built in France before we start local production.That way we will get the aircraft fast and of the desired quality as there still is a Q mark about HAL's ability to deliver quality equal to the French,with dassault having to guarantee quality of product.

If we want the FGFA delivery schedule compressed then we must acquire the first few sqds. of aircraft built to Russian stds./specs with indigenous/foreign input that will not delay the production appreciably.If e are acquiring around 140+ aircraft,then the first 40 or so could be Mk-1 std. with the later 100 built to our full specs.The first lot can later be upgraded just as the Sukhois were .

[Austin]

The Rafale production line is rated for 16 a year and is operating at 11 a year right now. Just how will one accelarate the deliver there? Off the shelf can be done after 2018 - when their own demand has been met. 18 means another year at best, and therefore we could have this line for Indian production starting mid-2020.
FGFA speeding up will still take 7 years to deliver unless we go with the PAKFA version with no changes to the airframe itself - i.e. only avionics per our current requirements.

LCA Mark 1 otoh, what stops HAL from adding the additional line - it does cost much lesser to do this than push either of the above two.
Mark 2 will not start until 2020. No chance of it happening right now.
So Austin... what would you recommend?

Right now Rafale is the best option , They have to deliver 16 Off the shelf rest lic production in India after 3 years , they can double that up off the shelf need ...Lic production wont be running according to script , it depends on factors beyond the control of OEM and local agency like time to absorb the TOT , delays due to external factor .....they might start with low number initially and bump up later or go for more CKD and just do assembly here to bump up number before starting with gradual indiginisation.

LCA MK1 HAL wont add lines unless IAF gives more order to Mk1 but IAF is betting on Mk2 .....but HAL does not have a great record even with Spoon Fed Lic production in initial phase Tejas would be something more.

FGFA/PAK-FA depends on what IAF wants now versus what they can afford to wait in any case no one is betting beyond a single squadron before 2020.

All in ALL Rafale is more practical then others inspite of unknown risks involved which is there in any big programs

[srai]

...
LCA Mark 1 otoh, what stops HAL from adding the additional line - it does cost much lesser to do this than push either of the above two.
Mark 2 will not start until 2020. No chance of it happening right now.
...

Current plan is to have a line that will top off at 12/year with 16/year possibility. For a order of only 40 Mk.1 (and no further orders beyond that), there is little incentive for HAL to add additional line. Even when speaking of Mk.2 order it is set at around 80 aircrafts (4 squadrons). That is hardly enough to justify increase in production capacity.

[tsarkar]

I wonder whether our decision makers have any common sense.

Any new technology has its own development cycle. The more exotic capabilities one wants, the prolonged the development cycle. The development of LCA & LRSAM is testimony to that.

In that light, asking Russia to expedite is laughable. The plane flies on interim engines, subsystems like radars, weapons & EW suite are under development.

HAL as development partner was to MKI-ize it, but itself gradually whittled down requirements (from two seater to single). My personal belief is that even with increased sensor fusion, modern fighter pilots are best dual operated, one to fly & one to fight.

Similarly, asking Dassault to "accept full responsibility" (whatever that means in the first place?) fighters built by HAL or any other builder is meaningless. Its like asking the long dead Gerald Bull to "accept full responsibility" Denel or Soltam or GHN howitzers built by Tata or Kalyani.

What can be done is buy the Tejas Mk 1, despite whatever shortfall between design & performance specifications. And instead of doing an expensive Mid Life Refit, replace them with later Marks. Today the cost of upgrade is as much as a new aircraft.

And if IAF is doing any hanky-panky, MoD or PMO is well within its rights to overrule them.

In U S Navy, after WW2, the leaders were carrier pilots who promoted their trade. Admiral Hyman Rickover bypassed the aviation cartel and went to Congress and got their backing for the development of the submarine arm.

[vishvak]

^^^ Its a paper airplane that we have to fund to keep Russkies happy. It will be out of date by the time we get it.

Bah! just get the AMCA and do the 6G a/c with Boeing/LM

Will the Gen 6 plane out of date by the time we get it?

In such a scenario we need to start with Gen 7 and then everywhere on the internet, discussions perpetually would be how an Indian fighter jet is better than x/y/z.

[Cosmo_R]

^^^ Its a paper airplane that we have to fund to keep Russkies happy. It will be out of date by the time we get it.

Bah! just get the AMCA and do the 6G a/c with Boeing/LM

Will the Gen 6 plane out of date by the time we get it?

In such a scenario we need to start with Gen 7 and then everywhere on the internet, discussions perpetually would be how an Indian fighter jet is better than x/y/z.

Everything we get will be out of date by the time we get it . 30 years from now, our spiritual successors (especially Philip's) will be arguing about getting second hand FAK/PA's (sic) from Malaysia

[Cosmo_R]

@Tsarkar^^^: "Similarly, asking Dassault to "accept full responsibility" (whatever that means in the first place?) fighters built by HAL or any other builder is meaningless. Its like asking the long dead Gerald Bull to "accept full responsibility" Denel or Soltam or GHN howitzers built by Tata or Kalyani."

That is funny but also sad. It's a mentality of ours: we want to run the show but don't want to be accountable for our actions.

It's no different on the nuke liability side: we want component vendors to have unlimited liability for events out of their control such as the jamadar who gets invited in to the control room and presses the big red button marked "DO NOT PRESS" .

We Indians all want to be Chiefs but are not brave enough to take the arrow

[vishvak]

I think we did very well with LCA without any of 'not taking the arrow' part. In case of LCA, shouldn't there be some responsibilities shared by every team - which actually another aspect in itself. To go through that and then quietly forget is a quiteful leap in backward direction.

[brar_w]

@ Austin, Any word on how many fleet hours of combined testing has been performed on the T-50's?

[Victor]

Never had any faith in the PAKFA. Not as a "stealth" a/c as in vlo from all angles, not as a quick addition to the IAF in the practical future and certainly not as any magic spoon in the mouths of HAL/DRDO who finally settled for doing simple screwdrivergiri much to the IAF's annoyance. From all indications it is a 4.8 Gen a/c to me at most, not anywhere near the capability of F-117 let alone F-22/F-35. Am even more suspicious about Chinese "5 Gen" planes and these doubts will remain until we see verifiable reports of their RCS and engine performance. In the meantime, we can listen to western hype about the danger of these planes that are designed to win more funding for the F-35 and coming 6 Gen efforts and Chinese boasting with behind-the-bushes-blurry fotos of exotic shapes taking off designed to puff up their self importance.

We need to join the F-35 program if we are able to. It will be a much better learning experience than any so-called "transfer of technology" nonsense that we have been barking up. At this juncture, with no engine of our own, we are not doing any favors to ourselves by tying up the IAF's plans with pie-in-the-sky projects. Last I knew, it is not the IAF's job to incubate and encourage the development of India's aeronautical industry. It is for the aeronautical industry to demonstrate to the IAF that it has the goods.

By all means let us maintain a well-funded research effort in building capability in advanced technologies that could give us a 5th-6th gen a/c in a decade or two. Let us even build demonstrators with foreign engines until we get our own engine, learning the ins and outs of advanced materials and construction voodoo. But let us not hamper the IAF's effectiveness by foisting half-baked projects on them.

[Victor]

.. asking Russia to expedite is laughable. The plane flies on interim engines, subsystems like radars, weapons & EW suite are under development.

Right. It makes absolutely no sense coming from an IIT-educated politician, so it is probably more a way of p!ssing off the Russians than a signal of our annoyance (what possible good would that do?). This implies a Plan B but what that plan is and why it exists we don't know yet. I'm 90% convinced that is the case.

HAL as development partner was to MKI-ize it, but itself gradually whittled down requirements (from two seater to single). My personal belief is that even with increased sensor fusion, modern fighter pilots are best dual operated, one to fly & one to fight.

Most likely the Russians, who know HAL inside-out, promptly told them to stuff their grandiose plans if India wanted T-50s in reasonable time and at reasonable cost. They were not going to delay their own development plans for a tangential project that would have diverted assets and funds to no practical end just to provide HAL with bragging rights in a "jointly developed" 5 Gen aircraft which was 95% designed already.

Similarly, asking Dassault to "accept full responsibility" (whatever that means in the first place?) fighters built by HAL or any other builder is meaningless. Its like asking the long dead Gerald Bull to "accept full responsibility" Denel or Soltam or GHN howitzers built by Tata or Kalyani.

Bingo. Which company, western or eastern, would be insane enough to sign off on such limitless liability unless they had full control of production? IMO it truly shows how clueless our decision makers have been so far on these issues. I'm hoping it was a case of UPA being filled by big-mouth idiots that will soon be set right by BJP.

[brar_w]

Never had any faith in the FGFA. Not as a "stealth" a/c as in vlo from all angles, not as a quick addition to the IAF in the practical future and certainly not as any magic spoon in the mouths of HAL/DRDO who finally settled for doing simple screwdrivergiri much to the IAF's annoyance. From all indications it is a 4.8 Gen a/c to me at most, not anywhere near the capability of F-117 let alone F-22/F-35. Am even more suspicious about Chinese "5 Gen" planes and these doubts will remain until we see verifiable reports of their RCS and engine performance. In the meantime, we can listen to western hype about the danger of these planes that are designed to win more funding for the F-35 and coming 6 Gen efforts and Chinese boasting with behind-the-bushes-blurry fotos of exotic shapes taking off designed to puff up their self importance.

We need to join the F-35 program if we are able to. It will be a much better learning experience than any so-called "transfer of technology" nonsense that we have been barking up. At this juncture, with no engine of our own, we are not doing any favors to ourselves by tying up the IAF's plans with pie-in-the-sky projects. Last I knew, it is not the IAF's job to incubate and encourage the development of India's aeronautical industry. It is for the aeronautical industry to demonstrate to the IAF that it has the goods.

By all means let us maintain a well-funded research effort in building capability in advanced technologies that could give us a 5th-6th gen a/c in a decade or two. Let us even build demonstrators with foreign engines until we get our own engine, learning the ins and outs of advanced materials and construction voodoo. But let us not hamper the IAF's effectiveness by foisting half-baked projects on them.

They are different types of aircraft. The PAKFA/T-50 is similar to the F-22, while the F-35 is more similar to the F-16 and Rafale in mission profile. The costing would also be different. With closer to 70K thrust (eventually), and a much larger super cruising profile the T-50 will also cost more given the added requirements. Its really an F-22 class fighter in role and purpose while the F-35 is a 5th generation version of the F-16 Block 60 that is stealthier than the F-22 which IOC'd nearly a decade ago. Now the capability of the F-35, and what it plans to maintain and build upon allows it do go much over and above what the traditional roles of the fighters it is replacing but still, if you go out and buy the F-35 for a certain type of mission and you buy the PAKFA for another type of mission. The costing footprint on the annual budget for the fleet would also be much different so they really aren't switchable as far as priorities are concerned.

[Victor]

Its really an F-22 class fighter in role and purpose while the F-35 is a 5th generation version of the F-16 Block 60 that is stealthier than the F-22 which IOC'd nearly a decade ago.

Nothing out there is as stealthy (VLO) as the F-22 and I seriously doubt anything will come close in the next decade or so. The Russians are superb aircraft designers but I'm sorry to say they simply don't have the technology or money to develop it out to it's full potential or follow up with a multirole version. The engine is just one aspect of this problem.

And from what I have read, F-35's main aim is to be as many things to as many forces as possible while being "excellent", "good" or "good enough" in each of these roles. As aircraft become hyper-expensive to develop and produce, a common platform with different versions for different roles will give F-35 users an insurmountable edge in productivity and the infrastructure that developed it will ensure its superiority well into the future. I doubt that any country or bloc today can replicate this project without bankrupting itself. Whether it does what the F-16 does today or how "stealthy" it is today is immaterial. It is the infrastructure that is killer and that is what all the top industrialized countries are buying into. It is a fait accompli.