Indian Military Helicopters

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 May 2015 08:37

More and more I feel helicopter usage in India will be with the IA with the IAF's role diminishing in the lighter weight segment. Apart from Mi-17's everywhere else, IAF will be no. 2 after the IA. The heavies like Chinook may also remain with the IAF.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 May 2015 01:51

Cross post from the Indian Military Aviation thread.

indranilroy wrote:A long awaited step. Good to see HAL finally take visible steps towards ESA certification.

HAL Completes Noise Measurement Flight Trials for ALH for European Certification

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 22 May 2015 02:55

deejay wrote:More and more I feel helicopter usage in India will be with the IA with the IAF's role diminishing in the lighter weight segment. Apart from Mi-17's everywhere else, IAF will be no. 2 after the IA. The heavies like Chinook may also remain with the IAF.

I have always found this fixed wing vs rotary vs all airborne assets being part of the air force (any), a bit strange. It's sort of the the Electricians' Union in NYC which says anyone who works under a light bulb is an Electrician.

By the same token the IA could argue that anyone who walks and carries a gun is part of the Army.

Th IAF really need s to focus on its strategic role: air superiority over contested air space, degradation of enemy air defenses and destruction of infrastructure that supports the enemy's war-making capability.

Rotary a/c have no role in any of this. These arguments about types of a/c are really budget battles not grounded in increasing our military capability and effectiveness.

I look forward to the day when there is just an Indian Defense Force that has two very straightforward missions: inflict unacceptable damage on the enemy and prevent him from doing the same to us.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 May 2015 15:29

Guys,pl. don't be negative,"can't wait for .. falling out of the sky". Don't be flippant or make comments that are mere flotsam and jetsam that have little depth. You're talking about Indian pilots and their passengers and their lives here. Both the helos.were extensively tested twice. It could have been the Fennec selected. Someone who doesn't like the faces of say for instance Yanquis could easily also say,"can't wait for the Apaches,Chinooks,etc...." ,or Rafales for that matter. We may question the reasons for any deal,have our own strong viewpoints based upon our information boundary,but do we have all the facts? At least this new govt. has been pro-active in fast-tracking requirements that should've been made a decade ago and is taking decisions based upon what it feels are in India's best interests. I can't remember a previous period when deals were decided as fast as they are being done right now and am positive that in this decision,the GOI is not toying with the lives of Indian pilots,etc.

Secondly,if with any weapon system,product,component,acquired from abroad,one trusts that the MOD has factored in the usual responsibility/guarantee for the performance of the product. These come with usual penalties,which for the first time now are going to be applied to DPSUs! No longer can the DPSUs continue with their time schedules stretching into infinity. Therefore,if the KA-226 should experience problems which can be traced due to OEM fault,one is sure that the OEM will have to bear the responsibility for the same.The LUH is still an unknown qty.It has yet to fly and we all know how long it takes after a first flight before serial production begins.Take the ALH,LCA,IJT for example. These new LUHs should've been in service replacing Chetaks,etc. at least 5 years ago. Anyway,we are keeping our fingers crossed for the LUH,which after the arrival of the Dhruv/ALH,which has matured over the last decade and the LCH prototypes,the LUH should be an easier programme to succeed with.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 May 2015 16:01

Sir,

The most polite thing that I can say to you is that, you are......................

The LUH is untested. OK but have you ever though about what will make it a tested product.

If the OEM for the K 226 can be held accountable. What is it that prevents the LCH manufacturer from being held accountable. Considering that both will be made by the same entity. Guess which one??

Unless you go through the long & painful slog of the developing capacity to design the product and going beyond the prototype stage, and into production. India will forever remain an importer. This is a road that goes through the blood of the test pilots and the sweat of the designers. But this is a point that eludes you and most of the other Indians.

It is this attitude that prevented a followup effort to the HF 24, and people claim that the LCA is 35 years late.

BTW, have you ever understood why the HAL struggled to develop the IJT. Or why the LCH prototype no 3 was delayed for as much time that it was.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 May 2015 17:10

Look, the HAL LUH was never in the picture as far as the tender for the LUH was concerned.The tender was evaluated twice.The HAL product has never flown.How can the IA which has been deprived of an LUH for years risk the vital need extending almost to a decade of no product,relying on ancient Chetaks which crash and kill pilots and passengers? The IAF too have suffered with their legacy MIG-21s,flying in service for 50+ years (which should've been retired a decade ago but couldn't because of the LCA dealy )! This is the exact situ with the BT,HAL's BT has never flown,hasn't decided yet on the engine ,its earlier bird crashed regularly killing many pilots and when the world's most popular BT ,the Pilatus is bought, which has served without any problems thus far, desi jingos scream blue murder against the Pilatus!

The Russians,French,Brits,Israelis,etc.,all foreign cos.,have all experienced delays,cost escalation,etc. with their deals with India. Our DPSUs too cannot blame the firangis for their incompetence as well.

The LUH deal is a done deal,with no controversy at all.There is no use ranting and raving about it and the Russians.

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 May 2015 19:11

Philip wrote:Guys,pl. don't be negative,"can't wait for .. falling out of the sky". Don't be flippant or make comments that are mere flotsam and jetsam that have little depth. You're talking about Indian pilots and their passengers and their lives here.

Good to see you've changed your mind since posting this below couple of days ago on this same thread .. or does your touching concern apply solely to pilots flying Rodina-made stuff ?

Philip wrote:Yaas,we've been hearing about it like the IJT.At least the IJT has shown that it can fly ....and crash,thrice!

Not that I'm biased against Russian stuff, but your blind anti-HAL/anti-DRDO posts are becoming a bit nauseating.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 May 2015 04:30

Cosmo_R wrote:@Viv S ^^^ any difference in the service ceiling heights?

All three manufacturers advertise a 20,000ft+ flight ceiling. But the Vivek Ahujaji's modeling gives the Bell & Fennec a decisive edge at high altitudes.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 May 2015 04:33

Philip wrote:How can the IA which has been deprived of an LUH for years risk the vital need extending almost to a decade of no product,relying on ancient Chetaks which crash and kill pilots and passengers?

How can anybody who values the lives the pilots and passengers advocate a just-out-of-development aircraft in lieu of a tried-and-tested type that has millions of safe flight hours under its belt?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 May 2015 04:48

Philip wrote: Yaas,we've been hearing about it like the IJT.At least the IJT has shown that it can fly ....and crash,thrice!

The IAF requested and bought a plane that crashed at least twice, once when the nose cone came off at some 15K and killed the pilot!!!!

And, now they are looking into one whose engine flamed out on one occasion and the plane caught fire on another (in front of a visiting Indian delegation). !!!!!!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 May 2015 16:07

There is no genetic anti-DRDO bias ,but the DRDO has to deliver and be judged it on its performance which leaves a lot to be desired.As I've always said its performance has been patchy,some successes bot more failures/delays. The problem is that the DRDO dinosaur is still trying to stay alive and feather the nests of its incompetent boffins/babus (report on the PMO rejecting cushy extra post-retirement posts for DRDO scientists posted earlier) and soldier on with no accountability.
Parliament and various GOIs have said so officially,that in its present form it does not deliver.period.What is its track record on major projects? Tejas,IJT,Trishul,BT,Nag to name a few. The blame game is now on with Israel as to who is responsible for the LR-SAM delay.

Secondly the KA-226 was developed years ago and has passed all the tests/trials of the IAF (twice),and found worthy of being acquired by the new regime. Spew one's bile against those who sealed the deal! Nitpicking is the tactic of those who cannot win an argument.

PS:Oh by the way for Osprey fans,another one crashed,tut,tut.Pity about the fatalities.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 May 2015 11:45

Russian Helicopters announces new Ka-226T receives IAC AR certification

Russian Helicopters (part of State Corporation Rostec) announces that it has received Additional Type Certification from the Interstate Aviation Committee's Aviation Register (IAC AR) for the light multirole Ka-226T helicopter. Receiving additional certification opens up opportunities for the delivery and operation of the basic model of this helicopter.

'Certification of the Ka-226T is the result of the great efforts made by the aircraft designers and producers,' said Russian Helicopters CEO Alexander Mikheev. 'I am confident that the Ka-226T will find its niche on the light helicopter market.'

The Ka-226T was developed by Kamov design bureau and is a development in the Ka-26, Ka-126, and Ka-226 light helicopter series. These helicopters were produced by Kumertau Aviation Production Enterprise. Special models of the Ka-226 are in service with the Russian armed forces and are still produced. The Ka-226T will also be produced at Kumertau Aviation Production Enterprise.

The certified model boasts French Turbomeca Arrius 2G1 FADEC engines. This is the first instance of Arrius 2G1 engines being installed on a coaxial helicopter. The Ka-226T is also equipped with new reduction gear and the latest avionics. The design solutions applied in the construction of this helicopter make it safer, reduce its environmental impact, and improve its operational efficiency.

Thanks to the new engines, the helicopter is 20% more powerful, and boasts a significantly greater cruising speed. The Ka-226T is certified under transport category A, which indicates increased flight safety. In emergencies, if an engine fails, the helicopter can continue flying and also land. Its upgraded avionics suite can perform instrument-enabled flights, in which the helicopter's location, position, and flight parameters are determined by on-board equipment.

Outstanding controllability and the latest navigation equipment mean that the Ka-226T is easy to manoeuvre in dense, built-up, urban environments and mountainous areas. The absence of a tail rotor and compact size mean that it can land in small spaces. This helicopter does not need to be stored in a hangar, which is another feature expanding its range of use away from base. During the certification tests, the Ka-226T confirmed that it boasts an excellent main rotor system, and outstanding altitude and manoeuvrability characteristics.

The prototype Ka-226T successfully underwent tests in India during a helicopter tender process that was later withdrawn by the Indian government last year. This helicopter performed flights in India's hot, mountainous areas, and consistently out-performed its western-made competition. During flight tests in the Himalayas, the Ka-226T acheived an altitude of 7,200 metres.

In 2013, the Ka-226T demonstrated its versatility in Kazakhstan. It was rated highly by representatives of the Republic's emergency situations ministry and law enforcement agencies, who tracked the helicopter's flight performance when carrying cargo using an external sling and winch. The Ka-226T also carried out a flight, hover, and landing at 2,500 metres to evacuate the sick and injured. One of the Ka-226T's unique achievements in the light helicopter class is its operational ceiling of 7,500 metres.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 24 May 2015 18:10

Expect 100nos NLUH requirement also being fulfilled by naval version of Ka226T along with 197nos IA and IAF LUH requirement.

That is firm order of 300nos of 400nos planned run.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 May 2015 18:38

Philip wrote:Secondly the KA-226 was developed years ago and has passed all the tests/trials of the IAF (twice),and found worthy of being acquired by the new regime.

Years ago huh? And uh how many have been produced over the many years?

Spew one's bile against those who sealed the deal! Nitpicking is the tactic of those who cannot win an argument.

Those who sealed the deal (no contract has been signed yet FYI) must be always be right? Surprisingly I don't hear you take the same tone when it comes to the Rafale acquisition. On that thread you're always going on about how many MiG-29s we should import instead.

PS:Oh by the way for Osprey fans,another one crashed,tut,tut.Pity about the fatalities.

Are you now alleging that Bell used desi materials in Osprey's production?

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 24 May 2015 19:53

My take on India buying and assembling ka-226 are
1. to establish a second assembly line ( wonder what tata-sirosky are doing )
2. I guess its cheap to operate and maintain ( spares and after sales service have always been an issue with ruski product )
3. It can operate high and can easily be configured into various roles
4. The principal operator will be AAC ( and thus the ruski color

)

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 May 2015 20:58

srin wrote:
Not that I'm biased against Russian stuff, but your blind anti-HAL/anti-DRDO posts are becoming a bit nauseating.

Aron - why do we need to suffer through anti national drivel like this? The poster under reference has served in the armed forces. Is this mind set typical of the ordinary fauji?

srin · Post by **srin** » 24 May 2015 22:48

Philip wrote:There is no genetic anti-DRDO bias ,but the DRDO has to deliver and be judged it on its performance which leaves a lot to be desired.As I've always said its performance has been patchy,some successes bot more failures/delays. The problem is that the DRDO dinosaur is still trying to stay alive and feather the nests of its incompetent boffins/babus (report on the PMO rejecting cushy extra post-retirement posts for DRDO scientists posted earlier) and soldier on with no accountability.
Parliament and various GOIs have said so officially,that in its present form it does not deliver.period.What is its track record on major projects? Tejas,IJT,Trishul,BT,Nag to name a few. The blame game is now on with Israel as to who is responsible for the LR-SAM delay.

Secondly the KA-226 was developed years ago and has passed all the tests/trials of the IAF (twice),and found worthy of being acquired by the new regime. Spew one's bile against those who sealed the deal! Nitpicking is the tactic of those who cannot win an argument.

PS:Oh by the way for Osprey fans,another one crashed,tut,tut.Pity about the fatalities.

Hi Phillip, I'm just checking wiki, but it appears that Ka-226 project was started in 1990 - that's more than 20 years before going into production, that too with a foreign engine. Terrible record, I must say.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 May 2015 23:15

The foreign engine probably is the best thing in the Russki design. At least the Helo will have a better up-time than the typical Russian design.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 May 2015 23:50

Vivek K wrote:
srin wrote:
Not that I'm biased against Russian stuff, but your blind anti-HAL/anti-DRDO posts are becoming a bit nauseating.
Aron - why do we need to suffer through anti national drivel like this? The poster under reference has served in the armed forces. Is this mind set typical of the ordinary fauji?

P and fauji?

More like a wannabe Russian and more loyal than the king so willing to spit and curse his own folks 24./7 in order to show due deference.
PS: You have a fauji trying to knock some sense into the rubbish posted by the aforesaid gent on the prior page.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 25 May 2015 01:16

People like him are the reason that India is where it is.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 May 2015 01:52

Moderator note: People, if you continue this personal attack, be prepared to face the consequences. This is the military helicopters thread, discuss precisely that.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 25 May 2015 04:55

I wouldn't call Philip anti-national, his love for Russian hardware notwithstanding.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 25 May 2015 06:34

Lesser posts against Indian weapon systems in the pasts (than the one for the IJT) have led to posters being banned from BRF in the past. Disrespecting Indian products and industry, blind sycophancy of foreign products in today's world are nothing short of treason.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2015 08:09

KA 226 cockpit

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2015 08:11

KA 226 with skis allegedly during J&K trials

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2015 08:25

Thats not Ka-226 Cockpit but Ka-52

Ka-226T cockpit is this

http://img.webme.com/pic/a/aviarus/043958.jpg

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 May 2015 08:52

Philip - anti-national?

Has BRF gone bonkers that this tag has to be applied to win an argument.

Philip is actually one of the most knowledgeable jingos on BRF. He just has his own views and is able to stand up to intense personal attacks. Besides he is a good friend of mine and we meet, or at least talk, every Aero India. He knows more about defence issues than most people do not know there is to know. I may not always agree with him - but "Salesperson for Russki stuff" and "anti-national' reflect more on the stupidity of the person making the accusation than anything else.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2015 08:59

Treason,thy name is Anthony!
Two years hence since that deadline,where is the IJT? Did we see it anywhere at Aero-India earlier this year?

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 384209.ece
Deliver IJT by 2015, Antony tells HAL
BANGALORE, February 6, 2013

Chides developing agencies for delay in readying LCA Tejas

Defence Minister A.K. Antony with a model of an aircraft given to him during the seminar.— Photo: K. Bhagya Prakash

Defence Minister A.K. Antony on Tuesday set 2015 as the deadline for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. to deliver the intermediate jet trainer (IJT) to the Air Force. “Please speed up your processes. Please get the IJT ready by next Aero India,” he said, inaugurating the ninth Aero India seminar here.

HAL began the IJT programme in 1999.

(According to HAL Chairman R.K. Tyagi, the IJT is being readied for initial operational certification in 2013-14.)

Mr. Antony also chided the developing agencies for the delay in readying Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

The LCA, 25 years in the making, is yet to receive its final operational clearance, though a limited series batch is being produced. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is a partner in the LCA and other military programmes.

Not happy with delay

Mr. Antony noted that the DRDO, which earlier received only brickbats, now got some bouquets, including some Padma awards for its scientists this year. “It’s a mixed bag. We are proud, but I am not fully happy, the Tejas delay is not a happy thing,” he said. However, he was happy on another count. “I’m happier than last year,” he said, pointing at the 100-odd engineering students seated. “All students are inside [the auditorium]” and he was not worried any more about the future of the country.

To industry, he cautioned, “Don’t expect the country’s main manufacturing strengths — cheap labour and cheap natural resources — to last forever, especially low wages. Give the working class its due.” The private sector was miserly in investing in R&D and could well chip in some more “if you want to keep up the momentum of growth,” Mr. Antony said.

It’s a mixed bag for DRDO, says Antony

PS:Shame on you Anthony for daring to criticize HAL and the DRDO,by these standars you are guilty (to some) of treason!

PPS:I think that Austin's post has given enough details about the KA-226's credentials and capability to most doubters,barring the Russian-haters.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 May 2015 09:33

shiv wrote:Philip is actually one of the most knowledgeable jingos on BRF. He just has his own views and is able to stand up to intense personal attacks. Besides he is a good friend of mine and we meet, or at least talk, every Aero India. He knows more about defence issues than most people do not know there is to know. I may not always agree with him - but "Salesperson for Russki stuff" and "anti-national' reflect more on the stupidity of the person making the accusation than anything else.

Tell me, do you also find the prospect of an Indian aircraft crashing, hilarious? Not disappointing, not aggravating, not exasperating, not depressing... but funny. Roll-on-the-floor laughing funny. Also, when a Russian-origin IAF aircraft crashes, is your instinct also to check the degree of 'desi materials' employed in its manufacture?

Philip wrote:Yaas,we've been hearing about it like the IJT.At least the IJT has shown that it can fly ....and crash,thrice!

Philip wrote:Nevertheless,the aircraft that crashed needs to be identified as from which batch it arrived,the latest aircraft being manufactured with desi materials upto 70$ indigenous. Previous reports said that the service availability of the MKIs were hampered due to poor maintenance,spares shortage and engine problems.The global record of SU-30s in service with other nations must also be examined. Whether the aircraft was an "India built/origin" one,or from Russian import kits.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 25 May 2015 11:30

Viv S,

Give over. Philip was doing nothing of what you are suggesting or alluding to. He was only speaking to the performance of IJT, not the pilots themselves. He may have a hard on for Russian products (sometimes, I think hes got too hard of a hard on but thats me) but being anti national is not one of them. Stay away from personal attacks and refrain to attacking points on technical or scientific merits.

member_29004 · Post by **member_29004** » 25 May 2015 12:00

shiv wrote:Philip - anti-national?

Has BRF gone bonkers that this tag has to be applied to win an argument.

Philip is actually one of the most knowledgeable jingos on BRF. He just has his own views and is able to stand up to intense personal attacks. Besides he is a good friend of mine and we meet, or at least talk, every Aero India. He knows more about defence issues than most people do not know there is to know. I may not always agree with him - but "Salesperson for Russki stuff" and "anti-national' reflect more on the stupidity of the person making the accusation than anything else.

While I disagree with the anti national term, but I disagree with the rest of your post. If there is a person who is clouded by his biases, that is him.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 May 2015 12:21

Hitesh wrote:Viv S,

Give over. Philip was doing nothing of what you are suggesting or alluding to. He was only speaking to the performance of IJT, not the pilots themselves. He may have a hard on for Russian products (sometimes, I think hes got too hard of a hard on but thats me) but being anti national is not one of them. Stay away from personal attacks and refrain to attacking points on technical or scientific merits.

Who said anything about the pilots? I was also referring only to the IJT. Personally, I wouldn't be too disappointed if they canned the IJT program (the whole 'intermediate' requirement is little dubious IMO) - would much rather see a two seat levcon equipped Tejas Mk1 be inducted into a LIFT role.

But the IJT is still an Indian aircraft, and I can't see any humour whatsoever in an IJT crash.

While I wouldn't go so far as to call him anti-national, he's quite.. unique in the sheer depth of his affection for Russia & Russian products even when at comes at the cost of Indian products or interests.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2015 14:00

I think my quote on AKA's "deadline" go the HAL babus to deliver the IJT IOC by Aero-India 2015...which never happened,puts the picture in perspective.Our desi boffins unable to walk the talk. For oldtimers like myself,the decades of DRDO bovine faeces about desi wares arriving on dates never met,are like the old joke (true) about a long distance train arriving at Delhi Jn. in the 1960s. Onlookers were surprised to see a Janata Exp. from the south arrive on time,only to be told that it was the previous day's train! It has stopped being funny,and the nation cannot be taken for a ride any longer.Unless the GOI sacks/holds the bosses accountable,like it is done world over,the DPSUs will suck the defence budget dry with major projects stumbling on into history,arriving obsolete decaxdes late,when they finally gasp across the finishing line.

The IJT is by any standards a fiasco ,that even crashed at a Bangalore air show-one witnessed it. Yet the HAL boffins want to deny the IAF an IJT,very short on trainers caring ahoot about pilot safety. The HTT-32 fiasco is still sore in the IAF's memory,why it is so reluctant to believe HAL on anything..This what the CAG said:

In 17 Deepak crashes so far, 19 pilots have died. The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India has been reported as saying the aircraft is "technologically outdated and beset by flight safety hazards" when discussing the grounding of the fleet in 2009

A Nov 2014 IToday report:

IAF jittery as faulty design grounds HAL jet trainer
...The aircraft has been in development since 1999 and the project has been marred by delays and crashes. The government will soon have to take a call on the programme, sources said. The Indian Air Force has already committed its full support to the development of the IJT but further delays have forced a rethink. The government had sought information from international companies on intermediate trainer jets as an alternate measure, sources said.[/quote]

So please see that after a long rope,various GOI's have had no alternative but to look for alternatives from abroad for many major defence projects. Keeping the services capability healthy is the first duty of any govt.Dereliction of that duty can be called whatever fits the bill. In the case of the KA-226/LUH acquisition,the IA/IAF have been using the ancient Chetaks far beyond their retirement date,also suffering fatalities and crashes,gravely endangering air crews.In fact the wives of the pilots protested against using these obsolete helos.

A group of Indian Army officers' wives have demanded that the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) stop using its fleet of obsolete Chetak (Aerospatiale Alouette III) and Cheetah (Aerospatiale SA315B Lama) helicopters due to their high accident rate.

The 28-strong Indian Army Wives Agitation Group - all of whom are married to AAC pilots or technicians assigned to these two platforms - claim that 191 of the helicopters have crashed over the past two decades, killing 294 officers.

"Every time officers go on a sortie on either of these helicopters, their families are on tenterhooks," group head Meenal Bhosale told IHS Jane's on 25 November by phone from Nashik, western India. "And each time they land safely it's like they have been given a new lease of life," added Bhosale, whose husband is an AAC engineering officer.

The group was formed on 2 October, the day after a Cheetah crashed in north India, killing two pilots and an engineer on board. It has created an online petition demanding the two helicopters' withdrawal from service that has received 20,000 signatures in support.

The group has petitioned Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the Ministry of Defence to retire the about 120 Chetaks and Cheetahs still in service. Most are deployed to sustain Indian Army formations in the Himalayas.

However, senior AAC officers said they had no alternative but to continue operating the platforms, which entered service in the mid-1960s, for another 4-5 years until replacements were acquired.

Are these wives/widows traitors?

The KA-226 decision has come like a breadth of fresh air for the IA,that too after it was twice cancelled.Who cared? Anyway,as I said,the KA-226 has the opportunity to become the helo equiv. of India's Maruti small car,that could revolutionise air connectivity to remote areas and spur passenger traffic and tourism.It will also be a cheap helo for corporate entities to buy,and what's the big deal with using RR engines? US aircraft also do!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 May 2015 14:11

Funny no mention of the wives/widows of all the MiG crashes thanks to Russian technical "ingenuity".

Not to mention sudden concern about lives and what not when the Ka-226 is mentioned.

Sample the brazen hypocrisy.

Guys,pl. don't be negative,"can't wait for .. falling out of the sky". Don't be flippant or make comments that are mere flotsam and jetsam that have little depth. You're talking about Indian pilots and their passengers and their lives here.

As versus...

Yaas,we've been hearing about it like the IJT.At least the IJT has shown that it can fly ....and crash,thrice!

Note the difference in attitude. When it comes to Russian gear and Russian interests, never ever criticize them. Everyone will be dragged in, from wives/widows to who knows what else. No depth too low.

However, if an IJT crashes during development, its to be mocked with no concern about lives etc there.

Heck, I'd rather the IJT was canned, but the above attitude speaks for itself.

Similarly, if a Su-30 crashes then some tenuous link to HAL must be found.

If a MiG crashes, then out comes the apologia linking it to bad maintenance by the IAF and Russian claims. Even maligning the IAF on basis of dodgy Russian claims is ok.

A lot of bovine faecal matter in this thread true, all thanks to one gent who spares no effort in order to run down Indian industry to cover up for the Russians and their crooked behavior.

If not for his repetitive 24/7 crap about great Russia versus pathetic India, people wouldn't have to respond.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2015 16:24

The usual spew of anti-Russian garbage,exonerating our own culpability in keeping in service helos and aircraft long past their retirement/pension date,but them as so many DRDO scientists fix themselves a second innings in cushy post-retirement posts of their choice (now banned by Mr.Modi),no wonder they think that aging weapon systems can soldier on forever!

As for MIG-21 crashes,we've for decades now been howling about the need for replacements and have posted years ago the chief reasons for the same,dubious spares etc. bought from the grey market after the fall of the USSR.The LCA was supposed to sort out that problem replacing the MIG-21 but where is it ? (remember APJAKs statement believing the boffins that "200 LCAs would be built by 2010") How many have been delivered to the IAF as of now? Tell me,who is fundamentally responsible for the 50+ yr. old service life of the MIG-21,long beyond its retirement age? It is now a geriatric fighter,still flying amazingly in Bison avatar thanks to the ingenuity of Indo-Russian experts and IAF experience.

Let's stick to the topic about Chetak crashes and protests from wives and widows. If you want to start a MIG-21 debate,discuss it in the Ind. Mil Aviation td please.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 25 May 2015 16:41

shiv wrote:Philip is actually one of the most knowledgeable jingos on BRF.

That he is. I think few would dispute that (even if it is mostly with regard to russian junk). It is only because of that he gets away with so much. Regardless, his fanboyism is totally disgusting.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 May 2015 18:18

Which is a better helo, I do not know.

What I do know is that the Indian services will make the 226 work - one way or another.

Also, I think India did NOT have any options. Putin needed a bone and the 226 was that bone. THIS - to me at least - is the key.

The real investment of "JV" with Russia is in the energy segment (if it comes to that).

For all I know this could be the last of major def purchases from Russia (outside of more MKIs, which are made in India)

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 May 2015 18:50

NRao wrote:Also, I think India did NOT have any options. Putin needed a bone and the 226 was that bone. THIS - to me at least - is the key.

We certainly had other alternatives to the helicopter itself, in the Bell & Airbus offerings. As for Putin, unless the PAK FA acquisition plus nuclear power plant deals are definitively cancelled, I don't think he has anything to complain about. Not considering how closely Russia and China are tied these days.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2015 19:03

There's nothing subjective in my assessments. It is purely objective and the mantra is "horses for courses".Had it been the US instead of Russia which had supplied us with 70% of our milware for over 50 years,I would be plumping for those reliable,affordable,US milware. IF one examines my many posts,one can see me advocating buying Hercules C-130s, sealing the Chinook and Apache deals,though I still want MI-26s in service becos they are unique helos (largest in the world) which can carry v.large heavy eqpt. and can even rescue downed Chinooks! Russian wares are more affordable,which makes them attractive apart from capability,as one can see from the latest news about the large Egyptian AF MIG-29 order. It was just about $30M for a Russian MIG-28,$32M for our 29Ks, and now this unconfirmed price,which looks v.attractive.

Western ASW multi-role helos are more likely to serve aboard our warships and carriers,as Russia has no medium multi-role maritime helo as of now.The KA-28/ AEW31s are excellent birds,which will still serve us for a long time. In the heavy maritime class,the merlin is the best and it is good to see AW now partially rehabilitated so that it can offer its wares for the huge IN 100+ helo requirement.

The KA-226 decision is now history and one should now look at how one can get max leverage out of the deal.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 25 May 2015 20:08

^Rafale was a done deal, we will see how far it goes. The russian flying junk will not find life easy as its ancestors did in the Indian Armed Forces.