Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Philip »

Desperately seeking spies: British intelligence is advertising for Russian-speaking spooks
Published time: February 16, 2015

http://rt.com/uk/232751-uk-searching-spies-russia/
Bright, British and with a natural air of secrecy: the UK is recruiting spies. It may seem like an extract from a John Le Carré novel, but in the wake of heightened international tensions UK spy agencies are recruiting fluent Russian speakers.

While the Cold War may have ended over 20 years ago, and the hackneyed images of shady alleyways and wide-brimmed hats long lost to the popular imagination, British intelligence agencies are putting espionage at the forefront of relations with Russia.

In a recruitment advert online, MI5, MI6 and GCHQ have advertised posts for applicants fluent in Russian to translate documents “intercepted under warrant,” which will be used “to make the right choices to help safeguard national security.”

The job, which will pay a salary of £30,000 a year, will cover “terrorism,” “espionage” and “potential threats” to Britain’s security, with the possibility of postings abroad.

The role will also involve liaising with teams of investigators in London, operatives working overseas and influencing the government’s policy on how to deal with Russian President Vladimir Putin and alleged aggression from Moscow.

The extremely public job listing has prompted questions about the effectiveness of current British espionage, with critics saying agencies are not prepared for a resurgence of hostile relations with the east.

Dr Andrew Foxall, Director of the Russia Studies Centre at The Henry Jackson Society, said the Ministry of Defence (MoD) had lost their focus on Russia after the end of the Cold War, saying their “desperation” was evident.

“There is clearly a desperate need within the security services and government as a whole for Russian-speaking individuals,” he told the Sunday Telegraph.

READ MORE: Public inquiry into Litvinenko poisoning begins

“There was a process that began in 1990 which involved frittering away the capability to understand Russia due to an increasing lack of Russian speakers. That’s continued unchecked ever since.”

He further said that Russian “dark forces” had been rampant in London, causing it to be a “hotbed of activity,” saying intelligence agencies were due to step up their level of Russian monitoring.

“Individuals that we traditionally think about as being spies in the James Bond sense are actually relatively few and far between,” Dr Foxall said.

“Instead what the Russians have are individuals in think tanks, in banks or high up in particular organizations who are on their pay role and placed to feedback information to the Kremlin. It is a subcontracting of traditional spy activities to individuals who the Russians can pick up, use and drop when they’re not useful.”

Candidates for the jobs will have to undergo a lengthy application process, involving language tests, screening questions about their education and employment, assessment centers and face-to-face interviews. The full process could take months.

Naturally, though, applicants should have the discretion not to post about their application or appointment on social media.

“Discretion is vital,” the document reads. “You should not discuss your application, other than with your partner or a close family member, providing that they are British. You should not post on social media sites about your application.”

For candidates lucky enough to be selected by MI5, their offices will be conveniently situated directly across the Thames from RT’s London offices. So presumably, listening in to editorial meetings won’t present too many problems for British security agencies. :rotfl:
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Philip »

OberGruppenFuhrer Semenchenko? Or perhaps even ReichsFuhrer Semenchenko once Willy Wanker bites the dust!

More on Debacalseve.,the UKR's Dunkirk.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/f ... ing-defeat
Ukrainian soldiers share horrors of Debaltseve battle after stinging defeat
Thousands of Ukrainian soldiers retreat from strategic town taken by pro-Russia separatists, leaving their dead and wounded comrades behind
Alec Luhn in Artemivsk, and Oksana Grytsenko in Luhanske
Wednesday 18 February 2015
A long line of military vehicles crawled north on the highway leading out of the abandoned government positions in Debaltseve in eastern Ukraine, pulling a motley assortment of half-destroyed ambulances, trucks without wheels and tanks without treads.

Those soldiers who had managed to get out of the ruins of the besieged town were immediately recognisable, their wide eyes staring out from a thick coating of grime as they waited for buses to take them back to Artemivsk. A group of national guardsmen fired their Kalashnikov assault rifles in the air to celebrate their close escape.
Analysis After separatists' victory in Debaltseve, will Putin stick or twist?
If Russia and the rebels continue to breach the ceasefire or otherwise overplay their hand, they are likely to face a much tougher US response
Read more

In what marks a strategic victory for pro-Russia forces and a stinging defeat for Kiev, thousands of government troops retreated from Debaltseve starting in the small hours of Wednesday, most of them on foot through the surrounding fields.

In the government-controlled village of Luhanske, which lies at the end of a deadly 10-mile stretch of highway out of Debaltseve, first lieutenant Yuriy Prekharia described how he led 50 men through the fields and forests to reach Ukrainian positions. “We knew that if we stayed there it would be definitely either be captivity or death,” he told the Guardian, as armoured vehicles passed by carrying hundreds of dirty soldiers. Heavy artillery boomed and rockets streaked through the sky as government forces tried to cover their comrades’ retreat.

Standing in front of the presidential plane in a camouflage coat before leaving Kiev for a visit to the front line, Ukraine’s leader Petro Poroshenko said he had ordered the “planned and organised retreat” from the strategically important rail hub after the opposing side had denied access to European observers.

But the withdrawal seemed anything but orderly, and Prekharia said the decision to pull back had been made by the senior commanders on the ground when they saw that the situation was becoming catastrophic. Other soldiers said artillery and ambushes had been waiting for them on their way out.

Combat medic Albert Sardarian said he had been woken up at 1am for a sudden withdrawal in armoured vehicles with about 1,000 other men. Pro-Russia forces ambushed the column in the morning, so the survivors had to continue on foot, leaving their dead and wounded behind.

“There was one guy whose hand had been blown off. I could only stop his blood and put him in a comfortable place, hoping that the armoured vehicles following us would pick him up,” Sardarian said.

Smoking cigarettes outside the hospital in Artemivsk, weary soldiers, many of them with light wounds, described leaving behind carnage and destruction in Debaltseve. “There’s no city left, it’s destroyed,” said a soldier with the call sign Sailor. “Two hours after the ceasefire, awful things started ... Residents are in basements. Lots of bodies haven’t been picked up because the separatists are shooting.”

“It was a madhouse. It was Chechnya,” said a soldier named Igor Nekrasov, referring to the bloody separatist conflicts in Russia’s Chechnya region.

The Ukrainian authorities insisted that Debaltseve had never been surrounded, but army medics and soldiers who escaped the city told the Guardian that shelling and mines along the road had cut off the flow of ammunition, supplies and ambulances to Debaltseve for more than a week.

Kiev’s armed forces command said on Wednesday that 22 Ukrainian soldiers were killed and more than 150 wounded in Debaltseve in the past few days, although with many Ukrainian troops reported to still be in the city it could be some time before the real death toll becomes clear. The director of the Artemivsk morgue told the Guardian that the bodies of 23 soldiers had been delivered since Tuesday night. Many of them had bullet wounds, he said, suggesting close-quarters combat.

Russian state-owned television showed rebels hoisting their flag over a high-rise building in Debaltseve, as well as images of several dozen captured Ukrainian troops being led along a village road.

The spoils of war: pro-Russia rebels recover a tank (left) abandoned by retreating Ukrainian troops.
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The seizure of the city, which holds a highway crossing and a rail junction connecting Donetsk and Luhansk, is a major victory for the breakaway “people’s republics” based in those two cities. “Coal from the DPR will go to Luhansk and other cities through this railroad junction,” Donetsk leader Alexander Zakharchenko told a Russian website from a position on the outskirts of Debaltseve on Tuesday. He was later injured in the ankle by an exploding mortar shell.

The fall of Debaltseve also represents a win for president Vladimir Putin, whose government has backed the pro-Russia forces with heavy weapons and soldiers. In Budapest on Tuesday, Putin called for Kiev to give up Debaltseve. The leaders of France, Germany and Ukraine, who met with the Russian president in Minsk last week to hammer out a peace plan for eastern Ukraine, told a European Union summit that Putin had attempted to delay the ceasefire for 10 days to force the city’s surrender.

But the end of weeks of fighting for Debaltseve could breathe new life into the stillborn ceasefire, which was broken by shelling in the area almost as soon as it began on Sunday. Rebel leader Zakharchenko had previously said his forces would observe the ceasefire everywhere except in Debaltseve, which he said rightfully belonged to the rebels.

Although both sides were supposed to begin withdrawing heavy weapons on Tuesday according to the Minsk agreement, Kiev and Donetsk said they could not do so while fighting was ongoing.

But in a sign of progress for the peace plan, Igor Plotnitsky, head of the Luhansk People’s Republic, said on Wednesday afternoon that his forces had begun pulling back heavy weapons and expected Kiev to respond in kind. Donetsk deputy military head Eduard Basurin said his forces were pulling back five self-propelled guns from Olenivka, south of Donetsk, as a “first step”.
The retreat continues: Ukrainian servicemen approach Artemivsk after withdrawing from the key town of Debaltseve.

But fighting reportedly continued on Wednesday afternoon near the coastal city of Mariupol, where Poroshenko said last week his forces had begun a “counter-offensive” to push the front line back to where it was before a September ceasefire. The local organisation Mariupol Defence reported that rebels had fired nine times with mortars and machine guns at the village of Shirokyne, which has reportedly seen tank and artillery battles in recent days, wounding two of Kiev’s fighters.

“What agreements can we have with terrorists? The main problem is that we sit at a table with terrorists and sign a paper, and then base our policy on this paper that is not worth anything,” said Ilya Kiva, deputy police chief for the Donetsk region, who also fought in Debaltseve. He complained that Ukrainian forces had only been allowed to open retaliatory fire after the ceasefire began. “Yet again these bandits used the ceasefire to make treacherous strikes against us.”

The ignominious retreat may have political fallout for Poroshenko’s government. Semyon Semyonchenko, a well-known MP and commander of the Donbass battalion, blamed the Kiev leadership for the defeat and said in a post on Facebook that he would call for the resignation of army commander Viktor Muzhenko at the next session of the security and defence committee.

“What hindered us in Debaltseve? We had enough men and material,” Semyonchenko wrote. “The problem was with the leadership and coordination of actions … What’s going on now is the result of incompetent management of our troops, even though they’re trying to cover this up with a propaganda storm.”
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Deans »

Analysis (Translated to English) on weapons recovered from Debaltsevo.

http://fortruss.blogspot.com.es/2015/02 ... ve-of.html

Video of a IFV retreating from the pocket. After a brief photo opportunity, the vehicle speeds away. An exhausted soldier
falls off, which does not bother anyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24RQKbTC8XU

Video of the orderly withdrawal from the pocket: See the `Nazi' helmet at the 20 sec mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_LpH3zaw88#t=14

Abandoned Ukrainian position in the pocket. Plenty of unused Ammo and vehicles left intact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo2ZLpmWnDc
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shreeman »

As ukraine starts quietening down, intelligent debate is in order. Ordinary hatred will not produce the bloody hand to hand combat smong what are essentially split families. And unlike India Pakistan, religion does not play a role. Any idiot would have foreseen post MH17, that air power will play no role. So why persist on trying to destroy any spcial fabric and civic sense left in the population?

I can only think of two reasons,

-- some general staff, far too drunk in victory juices from gaddafi's posterior.
-- some influential politician expanding their entire fortune in the hope of becoming european oil/gas king/queen.

The racists dont think on a hitler scale any more and wouldnt have had traction. Everything else, including ethnic diversity and tensions were counter balanced. Every leader in the landscape equally corrupt.

So what gave way? The Obamas, Camerons, Merkels would have had to ok these developments, one assumes.

And why is the UK now waking up so late to the party full of hate speech? Are the conservatives hoping to confiscate some of that london money to shore up coffers ahead of the elections? If winter lasts two more months, will there still be a population left in many of the eastern places?

Note that the rest of the situation is a boiling cauldron already. Turkey is already unsavory to europe (EU membership + cyprus for gas!). And except for georgia (or what is left of it) there is no place in middle-east/central asia where americans can safely travel, except perhaps as a garrison. The saudis and egyptians will take on the libya issue and sooner or later some smart person from somalia, yemen, gaza, egypt or libya have grand designs on the suez.

Why was all this worth it?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/27/expl ... 07920.html

Poroshenko didnt sell his company as promised. And there is more.
Its quite obvious tat this man is going to deliver Ukraine from evil and corrupt Russians.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shreeman »

^^^ Poroshenko is small fry. Given that Yanuk was off his rocker and literally off the blocks running and the blond lady reduced to hissing and spitting, he was a compromise for the normandy lot. Surely the german would have fared worse.

Poroshenkos money is also in Russia, so his tiny little piggy bank, lost as it is, is not sufficient reason. Sakashvilli having been transplanted says his backers made a big investment. But not big enough to put blackwater/xe at every street crossing.

There is an order of magnitude greater resource that has bern applied. If it is about money. So who had it?

Or its not about money. Every one ismore or less broke in eukraine, and the investors have cut their losses.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31548896
Poroshenko accuses Russia over Maidan 2014 killings

Russian reaction -
"Ukraine's investigative and security services have things to be getting on with. But at the moment, instead of carrying out investigations, they're exploiting people's deaths and putting out nonsense worthy only of a mental hospital," he said.
:P
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31552773

What is happening in this great land of democracy and freedom and European way of life. :eek:
Mr Semenchenko has proposed a "parallel" co-ordinating structure for the volunteer battalions fighting in the east. So far 13 battalion leaders have signed up, including Dmytro Yarosh of the nationalist Right Sector.

Mr Semenchenko insists this is not to replace, but to help, the army's general command in "information exchange, planning, logistical assistance and facilitating mobilisation."
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Semenchenko == Goering/Himmler. He is organizing the SS / HitlerJugend separately from the weak and corrupt Wehrmacht. Genocide coming, and as they lose more on the battlefield they will turn their attention more to the Russian population inside western Ukraine and esp. in the region east of the Dnieper.

Thus providing Comrade Vlad the excuse to clean them up all the way to Kyiv. I guess Mariupol and Kharkiv are heading for liberation soon.

See an example:
TheEqualizer ‏@ColoniumKoeln 1 hour ago: #Debaltseve #Mariupol Ukrainian army wanted KILL OWN Ukrainian Battailon 40 POWs, Separatists forces rescued them! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ZNcrTVNl8 … [eng subs] Surrendering UA soldiers attacked by UAF barrier squad....
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by ramana »

UB here is wiki on Ukraine collaboration with Nazis in WWII:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_ ... xis_powers
During the military occupation of Ukraine by Nazi Germany, a large number of Ukrainians chose to cooperate with the Nazis. Reasons for this generally included resurgent Ukrainian nationalism, aspirations for Independence and widespread anger and resentment against the Russians over the Holodomor, which occurred only a few years before. These were coupled with rampant racism towards other ethnic groups (such as Jews, Tatars, Roma peoples and Poles) as well as a prevailing sentiment of antisemitism. However, the absence of Ukrainian autonomy under the Nazis, mistreatment by the occupiers, and the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians as slave laborers, soon led to a rapid change in the attitude among the collaborators.

By the time the Red Army returned to Ukraine, a significant number of the population welcomed its soldiers as liberators.[1] More than 4.5 million Ukrainians joined the Red Army to fight Nazi Germany, and more than 250,000 served in Soviet partisan paramilitary units.[2]....
Looks like Ukranians are quite mixed up lot.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

And Comrade Stalin got a lot of roads built in Siberia by his dear Ukrainian Comrades, so there is a continuation of that love story far beyond 1945. The "Devil's Alternative" by Frederick Forsyth is about Ukrainian Nationalists (aka Terrorists in those days) subverting the USSR Comrades.
IOW, this tamasha won't end until one or the other side is totally beaten: the hate is trans-generational.

More on the victorious withdrawal from Debaltseve:
Vadim, a soldier from Ukraine's 30th brigade, told a Reuters reporter about the troop withdrawal: “There are no words to describe it. Along the entire way we were blanketed with shots, wherever there were trees they fired at us from machine guns and grenade launchers. They used everything.”
In another age, that would have been said in French. Or German.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by chanakyaa »

If it took, one year to take dark blue areas, going after lighter blue areas would take longer and could be much more difficult. Looking at the extremes taken by the both sides, ex-Cri-may-ya Ookraine could be split at some point; with lighter colored Ookraine becoming a permanent bakistan. Looks like the events have a real possibility of turning really really ugly, bloody perhaps.

Image
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shanmukh »

It is a bit rich of the Right Sector characters to claim victimisation by Holodomor, when most of them were not even in the USSR at the time. Lvov, Lutsk, Rivne & Ternopol (all red hot Right Sector areas) were part of Poland, while Uzhgorod was part of Czechoslovakia (and later Hungary). If anyone has a right to complain about the Holodomor, it is the Novorossiyans. The Holodomor hit worst in mostly Novorossiyan areas (Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhie, Odessa and farther east in what is today's Don region & Kuban in Russia). In UkBapZi areas, only Kiev & Vinnitsa, and to an extent, Zhitomir, were affected
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

Low gas price and "complicated" political situation in Ukraine leads to Gazprom cancelling its Nord stream pipeline expansion plans.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/ ... HO20150128
But "we were not allowed access to (German pipeline) Opal. Why build two more arms? We are not building them," one Gazprom source told Reuters.
Gazprom said last week it would build a liquefied natural gas plant near the Russian Baltic Sea port of Ust-Luga to ship LNG to Europe, India and South America
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Ralph Mens ‏33 minutes ago.
RT @arp111: #Kremlin-backed fighters gain more ground, build forces for attack on #Mariupol http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/separatists-seize-more-ground-build-forces-for-attack-on-mariupol-381395.html …


IMO, Comrade Vlad is allowing the UkBapZis enough and more time to fortify and dig in facing east from Mariupol. There are all sorts of reports of tanks, convoys, missiles, all crossing the border. Meanwhile, the Freedom Fighters have declared that they have no intention of attacking Mariupol. How does one reconcile these items?

One word: Kharkiv. IMO, Mariupol can be taken any time from the south and east. But Kharkiv has to be liberated before the snow melts. Mariupol may be a great port, but Russia has Naval superiority and can dictate who comes and goes to Mariupol. Kharkiv has the industry, and if that is denied to the UkBapZis, then it makes no difference whether Mariupol is open or not. Also, once Kharkiv has been liberated, the east-of-the-Dnieper UkBapZi presence becomes not-viable and may collapse very fast along with the Kyiv coup regime.

It is very close to the border. Once Kharkiv is liberated, UkBapZi frontline is stretched thin. It may be a swift ride down the E-109 highway to DnieproPetrovsk, and the river access to Kyiv is finished.

So haven't the UkBapZis figured this out?
Хуёва Німеччина ‏@el_roosevelt 20 minutes ago: #Ukraine trains #WW2 partisan tactics in #Kharkiv to prepare for a RU invasion. https://vk.com/public72144850?w=wall-72144850_405357 … #ArmUkraine
Molotov cocktail attack practice from manholes in the streets
Retweeted 46 times
EuroMaidan PR ‏7 hours ago: BREAKING #Russian military hardware spotted in #Belgorodsky region (#Russia) moving towards #Kharkiv oblast (#Ukraine) | EMPR @InformNapalm
Retweets 46

marqs ‏3 hours ago: Worrying reports about more and more #Russia|n military is arriving in the #Belgorod region next to #Kharkiv oblast. Diversion? Threat?

#Kharkiv isn't in the news right now, but could be soon. Only 25 miles fr Russian border & a stepping stone to Kyiv. http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/20/the ... ussia-war/
Meanwhile, from Debaltseve: why so few have been seen returning:
"Kiev must collect its 3,000 dead soldiers from Debaltseve"
UkBapZi Poroshenko has basically done a Musharraf-Kargil on Debaltseve: refused to acknowledge those who died there. Many are in pieces and buried under the snow, if the pictures we saw are to be believed.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shreeman »

Moaar Sanctions please!

No big fighting ought to happen before snow melts now. Not in kharkov/kharkiv. There arent any fighters left in UA for the moment. Minor skirmishes at mariupol, but the rest will be calm, broken only by french/german sanctions.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Austin »

Source seems German Intel , Interesting read

Victoria Nuland: America’s tumultuous diplomat
The American gave an internal briefing to the US delegation at the Munich Security Conference last Friday. She sat on the sixth floor of the Hotel Bayerischer Hof; in the room were perhaps two dozen US diplomats and senators. The German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen had just publicly spoken about the fact that weapon deliveries could serve as an accelerant in eastern Ukraine. The Americans were angry.

According to the German “Bild” newspaper, Nuland said, “We can fight the Europeans, fight them rhetorically.”

According to the report, Nuland called Chancellor Merkel’s trip to visit Russian President Vladimir Putin “Merkel’s Moscow stuff.” The atmosphere heated up; one of the senators was to have ridiculed the German Defense Minister (the “Defeatism Minister”); a reference to the Europeans’ “Moscow bullshit” was probably also made.


The top diplomat Nuland is considered conservative. In case of an electoral victory by the Republicans in the coming year, she will be considered a potential new Secretary of State. She is married to Robert Kagan, a [Ed: neo-]conservative thinker. Last year he published a text, why America must remain the undisputed leader of the world.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shreeman »

Bleh! Backroom ontrigue. Dont believe a word until she starts distributing water bottles in public in munich.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by rsingh »

Aaah Kharkov.............some 25KM north there is a rest house. I had first ahm ahm with my gf/ghq. One of my pasandida position still bear the name of that place. Wah re kismat.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Why are they practising with Molotov Cocktails? Because that's all they will have in the Next Phase.

The West have screamed "IT'S THE REGULAR RUSSIAN ARMY!!!" so many times that I see no merit in Comrade Putin going to extreme convolutions, sending Volunteers and weapons under cover etc.

Victory-Ah! Nuland will be sending weapons to Kyiv. The moment the first attack helicopters are dragged out of the C-17s, all bets are off: it's "use 'em or lose 'em" for the Freedom Fighters.

Next phase, so close to the Russian border, is simply to start the T-72s carrying the vodka, pick up speed along the border like Gen. Vij, and turn 90 degrees and keep going for the few miles needed. When they appear in Kharkiv, the UkBapzis can die or run.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

http://sputniknews.com/asia/20150219/1018500421.html

Indis being needlessly dragged into this. EU ambassador says India should use influence with Russia. Russian embassy reacts strongly.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Tuvaluan »

These NATO/EU oiseaules kept India out of the meeting about Afghanistan a couple of years ago, when SM Krishna was MEA head (and kept pakistan in) and now those mofos want India to "influence" russia is it? That is just freaking precious.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

India HAS already intervened: scrapped the Rafale, :rotfl: at the Oirofighter and F-18 and said hello to the Su-30. How many $$B worth of Sanctions Reversal was that?
They must be getting real desperate to try to drag India to use "influenza". :((
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

The Americans are working hard to dismantle the ceasefire. Unfortunately for them, there is no stomach for fighting in Ukraine.

`Yats` is on the American side. Recently stated that there is no ceasefire. Poroshenko has to manage between Ukrainian public opinion and American support.

I think American push will win. The ceasefire will crumble. Either we will see another crisis in Ukraine internally or Russia will have to intervene militarily.
Either ways, there will be serious sanctions on Russia for the next many many years. And Ukraine will go into the Russia orbit. US will probably also arm Galicia and volhynia regions in Ukraine to keep Ukraine destabilized.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by vijaykarthik »

But realistically, the Sukhois can't be technically compared to the MMRCA that the IAF requires. Isn't it. They need MMRCA's. Raffles or not.

But I am happy that France is kept on tenterhooks too. Think of it, its a Russian hull they used in the astral and Russia has paid in full and the freaks in NATO recommended that the ship could be sold to other NATO members because Russia is creating trouble in Ukraine.

Leads to lots of qns about what France will do as a military and defense supplier in case of trouble. Apart from cost and schedule overruns etc.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Austin »

The longer the fight persist the greater is a chance of another anti-maidan. So porshenko needs to manage the peace and fight its own people who are fedup.

Come April Gas price in Ukraine will go up 4x time as per todays report.

US and its puppet UK is unhappy that they were not part of Minsk 2.0 agreement so they are now talking sanctions among themself.

Looks like EU is now divided into two camps German/France that wants some kind of peaceful settlement and US/UK that want to fuel in money and more arms.

Interesting times ahead !
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

OT I know, and I know the MIlForum spends mega-hours nano-analyzing micro-components of each weapon system for Pakis to waste time copying, but I do not see why the IAF cannot be perfectly OK with a large fleet of indigenously-built Su-30MKIs (and maybe follow-on Su-35s or 40s or whatever) with constantly updated avionics and weapon systems rather than 126 prima donna French-speaking Rafales that can't be maintained. 60 of them will be on concrete blocks within 5 years unless they crash. Someone recently, for the first time, started mentioning realistic numbers for aircraft fleets, like 1000 LCAs. Not 100 F-16s or Viggens etc.

Of course in Mangolia we only have yak-carts with wings.

The case for twin-engine, large-payload strike aircraft is no longer about agility (actually I have no clue what is so great about the Rafale except that the execuBibis being from Phrogistan, don't under-wear). It is about speed of response, familiarity and adaptability for missions, flexible payloads, and advanced ECM/avionics, and most of all the smart weapons carried and delivered - IN MASSIVE NUMBERS and the ability to take the loss of 300 planes on Day One, if there is any serious intent to counter the Chinese threat. Parading above Nai Dilli can be done with Gnats painted to look like F-22s. India will never be able to achieve any of the above with Oiropean or American imports - and there is no history of either type going into large india-genius production in sufficient numbers.

Relevance to this thread: I think the whole debate about IAF needs and procurement, with the advantage now with the Oiropeans and Amirkhans instead of the dollar-poor Russians, is contaminated with the prospects of pucca makaans in Dilli/Mumbai, bank accounts abroad, and ranches in suburbs and US/UK, and at micro-level, bottles of Johny Walker supplied by Paco & Co at their Special Smuggled Phoren Liquor Store inside the Paco Makaan. But far b it phrom me to make such an unfounded allegation on the MIL-Phorum. Apologies in advance for any unintended aspersions cast on the Eidelweiss-pure character of Dilli Babus, demonstrated amply in current desi news on executives, journalists, babus all sharing Indigenous Chappati-Production industry at Tihar. Hope the investigation extends into why India has been unable to get a decent engine technology R&D - Flight Test - small production- refinement cycle going for the past 70 years.

As far as the case for 'state-oph-the-art' and safe, reliable equipment needed for the military - the prime reason given to hide the baksheesh - that can be achieved in india-geniuus programs by requiring that the Air Force Chief and the Chief Babu of the Raksha Bhavan ride in the vehicles built in India, powered by India-built engines, and their Z-Security types carry only Indian-made weapons, at least once every month. Will work wonders, at least in clearing the way for promotions of mid-level staff.

Bottom line: India still cannot hope to survive more than a 3-week war with any serious adversary. Don't have enough reserves of first-line equipment. Look at what has happened to Ukraine.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 22 Feb 2015 18:03, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Gyan »

What proof do you have regarding corruption? Ban Ulan Batori for behaving like an Indian.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

"Supari" is the fashionable way of dealing with ppl who allege corruption. :mrgreen:

C what happened to Guruswamy (article about editors and makaans in Internal Sekyoority dhaga). Stuff that he would compose for Ministry memos and send via secure Ministry channels to be given to the Mantri, would appear in corporate HQ before Mantri saw it. So he complained and poof! he was fired for "exceeding his brief". Poroshenko and Yanikovich would fit right in as senior ppl in Indian babucracy.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Meanwhile, UkBapZis adopt Maidan 2014 / KrystallNacht tactics in Kharkiv
Agence France-Presse ‏@AFP 1 hour ago: #UPDATE: Blast kills three, wounds 10 during pro-government march in eastern Ukraine city of Kharkiv: officials http://u.afp.com/Hq3
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Philip »

The time is now for wound-licking,denying the facts of the defeat,calling it a glorious victory,another Dunkirk, strategic retreat,whatever.Real aim was to destroy Donestk Intl.Airport to deny tourist access to the rebel areas.Any bl**dy lie!

Willy Wanker will use the "time-out" to try and stay in power by any means,prostituting himself even further.The man's face on telly is a splendid advertisement for suicide pills! The tussle between him and the neo-Nazis of the RS will grow and the cracks in the Kiev junta will only widen.Putin knows that just one more defeat for the UKR forces will see a collapse of the regime like a house of cards.With the entire MEast ablaze and under the increasing control of IS,there is no stuffing left in the EU for a face-off with Russia which has rearmed very well under Putin. O'Bomber also knows this well.There is little elft in the US quuiver to force Putin to do an about turn.Sanctions have failed,but have produced the opposite result,in getting Russians to unite behind Putin against the US/West. Russians at the air show,though acknowledging tough eco times ahead, were full of praise and support for Putin in casual conversations.

The thrashing that the UKR forces have taken from a Russian supported rebel/volunteer force is a mere taste of what would happen if the UKR clash with regular Russian troops should madness afflict the regime's leaders and they invite Russian wrath by going after the Russian speaking population in the east.Merkel and Hollande want a dampener on the UKR to find the time to rescue the EU from eco woes and the Greek rebellion. The worst fears of the EU leaders is a total collapse of the UKR and millions of UKR refugees streaming into the EU for economic reasons. This is not an impossibility if the neo-Nazis urged on by Uncle Sam try and use Gestapo and SS tactics against the Russians in the east and are mauled by reg. Russian forces who may decide to recover their famous city in Russian history, Kiev.

The view from Kiev.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 81315.html
Out from Debaltseve hell and back to the trenches
Feb. 20, 2015, 8:22 a.m. | Ukraine — by Kyiv Post+, Oksana Grytsenko

The Independent: A mood of relief, anger and mutiny prevails among retreating troops

ARTEMIVSK, Ukraine – Less than 24 hours after breaking out of the encirclement in Debaltseve on top of a tank, junior lieutenant Taras Savchuk was digging trenches at the new front line some 46 kilometers northwest, near Artemivsk, on. Feb. 19.

Savchuk, 25, who worked as agronomist in Khmelnytsky Oblast before being drafted to the 30th Mechanized Brigade, said his unit was lucky to survive during a dramatic escape under fire. He said he saw at least five Ukrainian soldiers killed while fleeing from Debaltseve on Feb. 18.

Now Savchuk thinks that Russian troops and their proxies will advance despite the Feb. 12 Minsk cease-fire agreement, which the Kremlin has already ignored. “Most probably they won't stop and will try to capture Artemivsk and then Sloviansk," Savchuk told the Kyiv Post, as he cleaned his Kalashnikov with a toothbrush.

The fall of Debaltseve, a strategic Donetsk Oblast railway junction city of 30,000 people, transformed the fate of Artemivsk as well. Previously, this city of 80,000 residents was at the rear of Ukrainian forces. It has become the front line overnight. Soldiers started to dig in at their new positions, this time knowing that they do not stand a chance against Russian military might. None of them had the slightest doubts that Russian soldiers knocked the Ukrainian troops out of Debaltseve.

“They have Grads, tanks and, half of them Russian, as manpower. How could we resist them? With our Kalashnikovs?" said Oleksandr, 37, a soldier of 128th Brigade, who refused to give his last name without permission of his commanders. He added that the soldiers were in dire need of new guns and equipment. This is why, he said, military aid from Western allies would be helpful now.

The road from Artemivsk to Debaltseve was relatively quiet on Feb. 19, but only part of the way remained under Ukrainian army control. The roar of armored vehicles drowned out the sound of distant shelling. It was only a fraction of the fire the previous day, which killed dozens of soldiers who tried to escape Debaltseve after a months-long stand-off.

Ukraine's General Staff said 22 soldiers were killed, 90 captured and 82 missing in the Debaltseve area. Andriy Lysenko, a government military spokesman, reported 172 wounded during their “redeployment."

But those who survived the retreat, say the casualties are higher. They describe the retreat as chaotic. Early on Feb. 18, combat medic Albert Sardarian dodged bullets while trying to save wounded soldiers. But the medics could do no more than give the injured first aid and pray that someone picks them up later.

“There was a guy who lost his leg. We fastened his tourniquet tight and moved him to a safe place, hoping the armored vehicles will pick him up," Sardarian said. He had to walk miles by foot after his armored vehicle was destroyed by shells.

The withdrawal once again showed lack of planning, communication and trust, raising comparisons to the August massacre of Ukrainian troops in Ilovaisk. Hundreds -- some say as many as 1,000 -- troops were killed.

After Ilovaisk, Ukraine signed the first cease-fire agreement in Minsk in September, under which Debaltseve remained under Ukrainian control but remained surrounded from three sides by separatist forces. After the second Minsk peace deal signed on Feb. 12 Debaltseve became a disputed area.

Kremlin-backed separatist Aleksandr Zakharchenko claimed Debaltseve was not part of the peace deal. So the truce that started on Feb. 15 lasted less than an hour there.

Sardarian, who served at a checkpoint close to Debaltseve, said that shelling resumed 1 a.m. on Feb. 15. He started his tour as a frontline medic on Feb. 5, hoping to return from Debaltseve within 12 hours. But he ended up stuck in the city for two weeks. The only instructions he received from his commanders were to “stay put."

There was a constant flow of dead bodies and wounded soldiers to his medical unit. “Many wounded died as we couldn't take them to the hospital in Artemivsk because of the encirclement," Sardarian said.

The fighting got more intensive every day as artillery gradually destroyed the city. By Feb. 17, Sardarian said his checkpoint was just 500 meters from the fighting.

Observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe were meeting with both sides in the town of Soledar, some 45 kilometers from Debaltseve, to enact the cease-fire. But they did not succeed.

Yuriy Brekharia, first lieutenant of the 40th Brigade said that since Jan. 20 it was clear that they were fighting against Russian soldiers. “They were obviously well-coordinated and precise in targeting. They were moving in en masse. I remember this style since Ilovaisk," he said.

On Feb. 17, the fights in Debaltseve reached their peak. Brekharia's redoubt with some 50 soldiers, located north of the city, had its last armored vehicle burned. By then the enemy managed to capture most of the city, destroying the Ukrainian checkpoints and taking many soldiers as prisoners.

Brekharia said the Ukrainian commanders decided to start withdrawing their units because they could no longer see any way to resist the attacks. “If we stayed there it would be either captivity or death," he said.

Brekharia led his unit on foot through fields and forest by a secret pass, which the separatists overlooked. After walking for 20 kilometers his soldiers were exhausted, freezing, but all safe.

Way too many soldiers were less fortunate.

Vladyslav, 19, a soldier of the 128th brigade, who refused to give his last name without permission of superior officers, ended up in a hospital bed in Artemivsk with his leg injuries.

His unit was one of the last ones to withdraw. At about 4 a.m. on Feb 18, they brought their dead comrades into the truck and started traveling. But the truck got lost and was ambushed along the way. He feels lucky to be alive. “After the ambush I saw five guys killed and lying by the wall," he said.

Sardarian, the medic, said he saw about a dozen soldiers killed on the way from Debaltseve after three trucks in his motorcade were hit by a shell and burned.

But President Petro Poroshenko said that the retreat was a planned operation that he ordered. Late on Feb. 18 he traveled to Artemivsk to meet with soldiers who left Debaltseve, and gave the Hero of Ukraine order for heroism to the commander of the 128th Brigade, Serhiy Sheptala. Poroshenko wrote on his Facebook page that he was “proud and happy" to be the chief commander of such brave forces.

But Igor, a soldier of the same brigade who fought at a distant checkpoint near the village of Chornukhyno, said he wanted to meet Poroshenko in Artemivsk and talk to him about those killed in the encirclement, but failed to find him. “I wanted to ask him: What did the best of our guys perish for?"

Kyiv Post staff writer Oksana Grytsenko can be reached at [email protected]

Editor's Note: This article has been produced with support from www.mymedia.org.ua, funded by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Denmark and implemented by a joint venture between NIRAS and BBC Media Action. Content is independent of the donor.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shreeman »

UlanBatori wrote:Meanwhile, UkBapZis adopt Maidan 2014 / KrystallNacht tactics in Kharkiv
Agence France-Presse ‏@AFP 1 hour ago: #UPDATE: Blast kills three, wounds 10 during pro-government march in eastern Ukraine city of Kharkiv: officials http://u.afp.com/Hq3
Yes, I am sad. There was every chance the lines would be frozen where they were. But no, there are new fronts in Ukraine, Syria, and Libya.

Kharkov/Kharkiv is a bit of a mixed bag, and will lead to refugee populations that will be a problem for both sides. Would be nice if there were actual news sources that covered this conflict.

Also, are we passing off considered miltary analsysys in positive newsthreads now? If so, consider the blight of the russians, what to say of the indians. Torbedos stopped for year or two, helicopter engines gone, light rocket launchers gone. New sources for rail wagons. It is a rebasing. It will put ukraine out of business, but russia is not having much fun right now either.

India is thus bowing to everyone and keeping its tongue firmly in cheeks. If a ukraine/russia style assault was ordered on india, you can forget three weeks. We are talking three days here. And this is the main reason india will not militarize meaningfully for at least another generation. Look at the poodlistan, froggistan, and unklistan degrees for babus -- practically each one has one. It does not appear Modi has the foresight on international matters, and Parrikar is the wrong man for the job.

Wait until the AN32 stories start appearing in the press. Its not clear the last 5 ever came back.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

What caught my :shock: :eek: was a report from Mariupol back in August b4 Minsk-1. Must be way back on this thread. Something like:
3 tanks drove up to the school. UA declared that they were going to use the school. Parked tanks outside, guys were inside. A few minutes went by. Two missiles came in within seconds of each other. One tank blew up. Then the second tank blew up - soldiers' remains were hanging from the trees. Guys in 3rd tank got out and ran as fast they could.
IOW, Missile #3 did NOT come in because the occupants had fled - the FF could walk in and take them over, undamaged.

This is modern warfare. Drones scope out the coordinates and confirm with visuals, real-time. Seconds later, missiles come in. Total precision. PRC has thousands, tens of thousands of these things. What good are Indian 1980s-vintage tanks or 126 imported MRCAs against these? Only vast numbers of dispersed weapons can do any good, and no imports can ever hope to do that. Plus all-out development of electronic countermeasures, drones for detection, improved targeting.

When the Russians decide to really intervene, this is what they will do to the UA: already, drones are scoping out Mariupol and probably Kharkiv. But if the Americans intervene, worse will happen to the Russians because the American style is to first wipe out the air force and all air access. So the Russians will have to react, the moment American air assets (UCAVs, attack helicopters, air superiority fighters) and 'defensive missiles and radar' start coming in. As I see it, they HAVE to take over Kyiv and Odessa to stop the Americans.

The PRC is into relentless R&D, relentless manufacture and deployment of new weapons, and relentless force training and improvement. Lessons 4 India: I best keep quiet.
More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.
etc
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shreeman »

When I said long long ago, in another time, that India's security is its population. I was not far wrong.

The 126s pay for next elections. If BJPs funds come from other businesses, -- cement, trash, rent; I could care less -- then there will be a defense. Until then, the only protection is abolishment of inner line permits, and 370 and all the other crap that prevents ONLY indians from using what they own today.

I fear that like 2008, when the democrats had it all lined up and chose only to enrich thrmselves and further the bush agenda, the BJP will succumb to the international toasts and banquets. Mann ki baat will never translate into votes.

Throw away the archaic restrictions on indians using their own land, and build like crazy. In ice, in water, and on land. This "unauthorized basti" appdoach is what gave india its metropolises. Waiting for the government to do X is to admit failure outright.

Their in an upper limit on indian tayyaras, no more than a hundred or two should be functional at any given time. The army is the worst in this. And Navy is being taken care by ineptitude.

Scale reverses all these flaws. There will never be anything of meaningful scale. You see 98 changed the landscape overnight. We cant have another like that, can we?

A 2000 plane or 10,000 IFV or 500 ship navy turns off pakistani economy overnight. Via land, air and sea. Therefore you shall not have it, you shall not even dream it.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shreeman »

Americans have been vetoed forvonce, from doing anything more than "training and advice", this will slow down matters this year. The drones, hummvees, and manpads are not appearing before things heat up elsewhere.

Syria is a start, lets see where things wake up other than syria.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by chanakyaa »

...
India is thus bowing to everyone and keeping its tongue firmly in cheeks. If a ukraine/russia style assault was ordered on india, you can forget three weeks. We are talking three days here...
...
Those who are placing these orders, when comes to India, could use Yeast India Kompany route than Ookraine route to monopolize and eventually take over Korporates. Of course, prediction is a difficult bizzness, so preparedness to stick around longer than three days is definitely a good plan.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Back to our regular programming on UBCN: Reporting the News Even B4 It Happens:

Events prove what we said: Blast was staged for UkBapZi publicity.KrystallNacht rehash
Armed Research ‏3 hours ago
VIDEO: Reportedly footage of SBU arrest of #Kharkiv bombers. Draw your own conclusions. #Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT8a0o9JscE
Armed Research ‏@ArmedResearch 3h3 hours ago

ButtHead ‏@ButtHead239 3 hours ago: It’s fake. According to the authorities the arrest took place at 15.30. It’s daylight in Kharkiv.
@ButtHead239 @rConflictNews Can you link me to that report? Because this is obviously a fake.
gheorghe ‏@ghmacici 3h3 hours ago @ArmedResearch what is not faked in Ukraine nowadays? @ButtHead239 @rConflictNews
Peter Hofmann ‏@PeterHofmann6 3h3 hours ago @ArmedResearch @rConflictNews It's quite dark in Charkow between 13.30 and 15.30 ;-)
cy80s ‏2 hours ago #Kharkiv staged arrest video makes it clear bombing was falseflag to start ATO to crush the resistance in #Kharkov & appeal for int'l help.
And this: EuroMaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR 13 minutes ago Ukraine. BREAKING #Kharkiv explosion updates. Heartbreaking footage at the site right after the tragedy (18+) | EMPR Video http://empr.media/video/conflict-zone/b ... s-after-18
Ludicrous to see all the rona-dhona over a blast that killed 2 and wounded 11, after burning 30 civilians alive, in Odessa, shelling the entire town and then the hospital in Donetsk and reducing Luhansk to rubble - thousands murdered. And apparently over 800 reported rapes by the Nazis in Mariupol already.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

As UBCN predicted:
Thomas C. Theiner ‏5 minutes ago: Think #Russia will attack #Mariupol next? Wrong - #Kharkiv is the next target on the Kremlin fascists' list http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/22/t ... e-god-act/
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Kyiv Post ‏@KyivPost Feb 21 #Ukraine shuts down border posts with #Russia in response to troop build-up near #Mariupol http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-po ... 81493.html
Picture shown is obviously bogus: Look at the Fall tree colors.. in February?
Stop EXCEPTIONALISMs ‏25 minutes ago: Putin tell to Hillary n her pet Obama that UKR in NATO/armed by, not allowed for RU and he explicity named RU will use tactical-N. #Mariupol
This is one feature of this war: each time there is a big explosion, people seem to assume that it is likely to be a tactical nuke. Wonder how many are loose in the region. :shock:
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