Bharat Rakshak

hgupta wrote:

Mort Walker wrote:Rishirishi ji,

That is all natural growth and will remain small for many years, but that’s okay. When you get your magic solar bus that can travel 1,000 KM in a 30 second charge, I will be happy to take a ride. Cheers.

Are you willing to ride a petroleum based bus right now? diesel bus? What kind of bus are you willing to travel right now?

I ride CNG buses right now, but will happily take an electric bus from Mumbai to Indore when offered and takes less than 10 hours.

Mod Note

Vayutuvan, you're derailing this thread with everything from 'eurotrash' to beef consumption. You're on notice.

Noted.

https://www.techbriefs.com/component/co ... asts/45232

Here's an Idea: Recycling Lithium-Ion Batteries from Electric Vehicles

Over 145 million electric vehicles are set to take the road by 2030 and a major component of the new class of electric vehicles – lithium-ion batteries – is rarely recycled.

Canadian battery recycling company Li-Cycle is aiming to change through its sustainable process to provide an end-of-life solution for lithium-ion batteries, while creating a secondary supply of critical battery materials.

On this episode of Here's an Idea™, Kunal Phalpher, Chief Strategy Officer at Li-Cycle, discusses why we haven’t been able to recycle batteries effectively in the past and how that’s changing. Phalpher also talks about the company’s “spoke and hub” model.
...

A tracker to see how much renewable energy was generated in Karnataka.

https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/IN-KA

We should have similar trackers for all states in India.

Vayutuvan wrote:

hgupta wrote:Vayutuvan,

So I am turning the questions on you. You obviously favor continuing fossil fuel powered plants.

No, I don't favor fossil fuel power plants. I favor biogas-powered trucks/automobiles and co-located power generation facilities. CH4-based H fuel cell-powered autos are competitive vis-a-vis EVs.

.......

Check this out.
http://www.primove.in/agrogas.html
(Full disclosure: I am one of the directors and an investor)

Sorry for OT,

Vayutuvan Saar, I am interested in knowing more about this project. is there another number or e-mail to contact to know more or get info about the opportunity to invest as they are looking to expand in more states.

I tried their +91 number on the website, but didn't get any info for investment per se.
thanks in advance.

venkat_kv wrote: Vayutuvan Saar, I am interested in knowing more about this project. is there another number or e-mail to contact to know more or get info about the opportunity to invest as they are looking to expand in more states.

venkat_kv gaaru, you can contact me. Are you on twitter BRF groups or BRF TG groups? That would be the easiest.

Vayutuvan wrote:

venkat_kv wrote: Vayutuvan Saar, I am interested in knowing more about this project. is there another number or e-mail to contact to know more or get info about the opportunity to invest as they are looking to expand in more states.

venkat_kv gaaru, you can contact me. Are you on twitter BRF groups or BRF TG groups? That would be the easiest.

twitter is still far off Vayutuvan Saar, what is BRF TG groups (is it the telegram app). if so i have to join that as well. any other form of contact? or i will have to create a twitter account just for this one.

venkat_kv gaaru, contact me here. **** got your email.

Vayutuvan wrote:... deleting info as the required message seems to be sent.

^^^^
e chitti sent Saar, can you delete your message here if you have received it Saar? thanks in advance.

Could you please delete your msg which includes a quote? Thanks.

^^ done saar. thanks

India to see 48k more EV chargers with investment of Rs 14k cr in 3-4 yrs.

India is likely to see around 48,000 additional electric vehicle chargers at an investment of around Rs 14,000 crore over the next 3-4 years amid an expected healthy electric vehicle (EV) penetration in the country, a report said on Wednesday.

As the EV penetration is expected to increase in the two and three wheeler as well as bus segments, the expansion of charging infrastructure which is currently at a nascent stage will play a critical role, domestic credit ratings agency Icra said in its report.

The penetration of electric two-wheelers is expected to be at about 13-15 per cent of the new vehicle sales by FY25, according to the report which also expects electric three-wheeler and e-bus segment penetrations at more than 30 per cent and 8-10 per cent, respectively, by FY25.

Currently, there are less than 2,000 public charging stations in India with concentration in a few states, and that too primarily in urban areas, the rating agency said.

"India remains a laggard in EV charging infrastructure penetration. However, like most global counterparts, the policy push has been strong in India as well to increase the number of EV charging stations. To capitalise on the potential opportunity in the space, several PSUs and private players have also announced plans to foray into charging infrastructure," said Shamsher Dewan, Vice President and Group Head, ICRA.

"Battery swapping is an alternative solution instead of developing EV charging infrastructure, especially for commercial applications. This is also currently in nascent stage in India," Dewan added.

In order to increase the EV charging network, the central government has allocated Rs 1,300 crore in the FAME (Faster Adoption and Manufacturing of Hybrid and Electric Vehicles) scheme.

Further, the government has proactively amended guidelines for charging infrastructure development in the country, Icra said.

Overall, the policies aim to proactively promote more EV charging stations, with a sizeable part of the population expected to have charging infra access in the next 3-5 years, it said.

While several Public Sector Units (PSUs) and private players have announced plans to foray into charging infrastructure to capitalise on the potential opportunity in the space, Icra said it expects an addition of around 48,000 chargers over the next 3-4 years at an investment of Rs 14,000 crore.

However, the EV charging infrastructure business is capital intensive. Excluding land, the initial upfront cost is approximately Rs 29 lakh without subsidy, as per the report which also said that the operating costs are over Rs 10 lakh per year, thereby making asset utilisation critical.

Icra estimates that it will take about four years for an EV charging station to reach break-even based on current expectations of EV penetration and commensurate asset utilisation (30 per cent in four years years), without accounting for any subsidy.

The localisation is only 10-15 per cent currently with the hardware components largely imported from China and Taiwan, it said, adding that increase in localisation can save cost.

Battery swapping is advantageous for it being a quick way of recharging a vehicle. It is cost- and time-efficient, and also reduces the upfront cost of EV as battery ownership is replaced by battery leasing, according to Dewan.

"There is increased predictability of battery life due to controlled charging conditions. However, ensuring interoperability, adequate financing availability and maintaining sufficient battery inventory can prove to be challenging," he added.

CONGOs BLOOD LITHIUM

Four Electric Scooters Catch Fire in 7 Days. Proceed with caution with EVs as they aren't ready at this time. Automakers are pushing them to drive sales and western governments are complicit in this.

Its a epidemic of unregulated, untested chinese junk. Every town now has atleast half a dozen different brands previously unheard of selling colorful EV scooters. Fire is just one part of the problem but from a consumer protection perspective one knows if these companies will even be around in 12 months . Even desi manufacturers are just importing chinese components and batteries and rebranding them. There were fires last year too, the govt is now issuing media statements because the number of EV 2 wheelers has exploded (pun unintended!) thanks to the high fuel prices, add a hotter than usual summer and hazardous chinese junk on 2-wheeles and we have a lethal problem. If this is bad just wait until chinese EV cars enter Indian markets !

Ambar wrote:Its a epidemic of unregulated, untested chinese junk. Every town now has atleast half a dozen different brands previously unheard of selling colorful EV scooters. Fire is just one part of the problem but from a consumer protection perspective one knows if these companies will even be around in 12 months . Even desi manufacturers are just importing chinese components and batteries and rebranding them. There were fires last year too, the govt is now issuing media statements because the number of EV 2 wheelers has exploded (pun unintended!) thanks to the high fuel prices, add a hotter than usual summer and hazardous chinese junk on 2-wheeles and we have a lethal problem. If this is bad just wait until chinese EV cars enter Indian markets !

Isn't Automotive Research Association of India not responsible for certifying road-worthiness of EVs, too? How are RTOs registering EVs without ARAI certification?

EVs in India are new, ARAI may take a while to catch up with test criteria, equipment etc. also EVs with motors <250 w are not required to go through ARAI testing. Never forget lobbying either, manufacturers importing chinese batteries and chinese motors can easily bribe/arm twist agencies into approving these unsafe automobiles .

Bengaluru startup launches indigenous cell manufacturing line to boost India’s electric mobility.

Bengaluru-based advanced battery technology startup Log9 Materials Thursday unveiled an indigenously-developed cell manufacturing facility at its campus in Jakkuru, aimed at meeting India’s future electric mobility goals.

With the newly-launched facility, the startup is aiming to achieve at least 50MWh of peak cell production capacity in the next one year, and then they would be scaling to over 5GWh in the next 3-5 years.

Speaking at the inauguration event, Dr. K Sivan, Ex-Chairperson, ISRO, said, “Just as Dr. Sarabhai (ISRO founder Dr. Vikram Sarabhai) many years back understood and laid emphasis on indigenous innovation to advance and reap large scale benefits of space-technology, Log9’s path-breaking indigenous research and infrastructure development shall bring India closer to self-reliance in energy storage and EV sectors in the near future.”

Gunjan Krishna, Commissioner, Department of Industries and Commerce, said, “It is inspiring and exciting to see the work done by Indian startups like Log9, helping the nation’s climate action goals as well as advancing the cause of bettering our planet. It is imperative today to build climate-friendly technologies and products as the country increasingly moves from conventional fuel sources to alternate clean or renewable energy sources. And, in enabling that, building innovative and future-ready energy storage solutions in India, for India, will be the key.”

The company called the inauguration day as ‘Day Zero’ marking its seventh anniversary. Day Zero refers to the starting point in terms of reimagining electric mobility in India and redefining innovation for the years to come, and most importantly, commemorating a special day marking the auspicious beginning of everlasting transformation in India’s EV sector.

Dr. Akshay Singhal, Co-Founder & CEO, Log9 Materials, said, “We at Log9 are extremely proud and happy to launch India’s first cell manufacturing line, which reflects a giant leap forward in empowering India with all the flexibility and scale that would be required to give the country the right impetus for ushering its EV-led future. Thus, for Log9, Day Zero marks the day that will usher a new era of India-made cell for the country. Our cells have been designed ground-up in India, for India; and this means that Log9’s cells and batteries are best suited for Indian operating conditions, climate and customers, and hence, they are going to play a crucial role in making the country self-reliant while helping the nation realize its ambitious electric mobility vision. With the momentum garnered from Log9’s Day Zero event, we will be going onward and upwards and pledge to do everything possible to enable our country to accelerate and lead within the intersectional areas of e-mobility, EV-tech, clean energy and clean-tech, sustainability and deep-technologies.”

Kartik Hajela, Co-Founder & COO, Log9 Materials added, “It is ironic but true that India despite being a talent-dense economy still starves of grounds-up innovation in the field of deep-tech and EV-tech. When we at Log9 started our journey, we could have either borrowed from what was present in the market and further built on it; but we instead chose to work on a blank canvas, and over the years, with multiple trials, errors and failures, we have been able to better our product and technologies. And today, with utmost pride, we can announce that we have finally made our mark by bringing to India, the best of the battery and cell technology available. India as a market demands products designed bespoke for the country and not carried forward from some other market. In that respect, we have been able to understand the pulse of the market and our customers well and hence bring to them the best that the world has to offer.”

India’s first electric double-decker bus unveiled in Mumbai

MUMBAI: India’s first electric double-decker was unveiled by Union transport minister Nitin Gadkari at Y B Centre in south Mumbai on Thursday. The double-decker bus - called Switch EiV 22- will be run by BEST from September.
It is equipped with the latest technology, ultra-modern design, highest safety and best-in-class comfort features, said Switch mobility CEO Mahesh Babu. The renewed iconic double-decker bus is designed to revolutionise public transportation in the country and will set new standards in the intra-city bus market, he said, adding there was an order bank of 200 double-decker buses for BEST, Mumbai - the operator of double-decker buses in India for over seven decades.

Ushering Sustainable Revolution!It gives me immense pleasure to launch the Ashok Leyland's Electric Double Decker… https://t.co/OlVdpEY8pY
— Nitin Gadkari (@nitin_gadkari) 1660810730000


“There is a need to transform the country's transport system from a long-term perspective. With focus on reforming urban transport, we are trying to build a low footprint and high passenger density integrated EV mobility ecosystem. Government's vision and policies are supportive towards EV adoption with growing consumer demand for greener solutions. Switch Mobility, subsidiary of Ashok Leyland, has revived the double-decker and remained committed to introducing new technologies for the benefit of passengers," Gadkari said.

Giving Dynamic Boost to the sustainable transportation sector, such initiatives are cost-effective solutions & achi… https://t.co/Y4oTRew7lk
— Nitin Gadkari (@nitin_gadkari) 1660810731000


Ashok Hinduja, Chairman - Hinduja Group of Companies (India) commenting on the launch, said, "The Hinduja Group has a clear vision to support economies in delivering their net zero objectives through renewable energy, finance and zero-emission transportation. We are confident that our new zero-emission double-decker bus will deliver a cleaner and more sustainable future, reinforcing our commitment for India and the globe.”
The double deckers will provide a carrying capacity of 78-90 per bus. The bus will have two staircases instead of the single one in the existing double decker. This will ensure smooth movement of passengers while boarding or alighting from the bus.
The buses will be noiseless, electric and air-conditioned, which will not just augment the carrying capacity but will also provide comfortable rides. It will have two staircases and charging points for commuters.

Mort Walker wrote:Four Electric Scooters Catch Fire in 7 Days. Proceed with caution with EVs as they aren't ready at this time. Automakers are pushing them to drive sales and western governments are complicit in this.

Western Governments are complicit in forcing us to consume Chinese mall?

EV tech is ready for prime time as you can see the huge adoption curve in US, but we in India only want cheap Cheenie mall.

If Govt regulates the industry and commits the automakers to source EV tech from locally regulated industry then it will not catch fire. This will not happen naturally because we will always try to save the last rupee unless govt forces our hand.

My neighbourhood Shell charging station was out of order today. The supermarket inside was fully functional. A couple came to charge their car and do groceries. I wonder what they chose
It’s going to be a nightmare to plan the initial conversion to all electric in urban areas. Best is if they can make a lamppost a charger like they do on some streets but then parking and reserving spaces will be a problem.

The catching fire in lithium batteries is due to induced short circuit. The lithium batteries are dominated by CALT (china), Panasonic, LG for worldwide demand. Tesla spent a huge R&D figuring out the fire issue. A bunch of cells is packed into a unit and unit to unit discrepancies in amperage flow is carefully regulated to within a small delta of a spec. If there is a little wide difference then fires are possible. The fire is caused by the liquid separator between cathode and anode of the lithium battery cell. If lithium batteries figure out a solid separator then the fire issue goes away.

The companies in India haven't spent R&D on addressing the amperage flow discrepancies.

EVs combusting spontaneously due to battery fires will be a risk until better batteries start being used. Until then, the risk has to be managed by parking a little further away from human habitation and having an appropriate amount of insurance coverage.

Chevy Bolt recall
Hyundai recalls Kona EVs
While they were asleep, their Teslas burned in the garage

Electrolytic lithium ion batteries are a dead end. Solid state batteries are around the corner. Until then, EVs should be limited to 65 KWHr battery packs. It will take 5-10 years.

Another Lithium discovery -- this time in Rajasthan





Apparently, this Rajasthan discovery is larger than the one in J&K

Mort Walker wrote:Electrolytic lithium ion batteries are a dead end. Solid state batteries are around the corner. Until then, EVs should be limited to 65 KWHr battery packs. It will take 5-10 years.

hydrogen as a fuel is fast emerging as a viable alternate

This idea also looks like its time has come:



At least we'll produce less noise pollution in the water, which intimately affects aquatlc life, and carries for much longer distances than through the air.

Elon likes Modi, will bring Tesla to India asap

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/21/tech/tes ... index.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/21/elon-mu ... -modi.html

x-posting from Indian Economy thread to EV and Power Storage thread.

yensoy wrote:Are you sure it's a good thing? I would rather let our local companies get ahead on the EV push; they are already doing very well in terms of innovation, quality, pricing and market share. ....

Vips wrote:The price difference is way higher if you factor in the Indian and Chinese products.

1. Tesla coming to India and manufacturing batteries at Gigawatt scale will be a great thing.
2. Tesla has the best technology on earth currently to manufacture reliable EV batteries both at Gigawatt scale and at highest safety rating.

For example:

Tesla vehicles have had a fire rate of one for every 175 million miles traveled compared to the U.S. average a vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled.

Source: https://www.carsdover.com/tesla-car-fire-statistics/

Comparatively, 10 EVs catch fire in China. ~40% of them while parked (as opposed to involved in an accident). Safety and reliability matters. Of course, Indians have the habit of throwing their life to save few rupees. That's an attitude change.

3. Local companies are just branding unsafe cheeni maal and selling it here. They are way below in innovation. Tata is worse. Mahindra is still better when it is partnering with LG.

I have experience >7 years with EV and >100k miles. So feel free to ask questions.

Both Tata and Mahindra must collaborate and start developing India battery packs. They can take help from Tesla for their first generation of EV pack.

disha wrote:Both Tata and Mahindra must collaborate and start developing India battery packs. They can take help from Tesla for their first generation of EV pack.

I thought Mahindra were going to use the VW MEB (https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/ ... x-meb-3677) architecture for its future line up.

Tesla is a fantastic engg and innovation co. They're so far ahead of the rest that many in the auto industry really don't get it, sometimes by intent.

Their coming to India will help, some day may be we can compete with Tesla but until then, we should join hands and learn about R&D, materials, processes, s/w design, robotics and a bunch of related things.

Example: (I had better vids bookmarked than this about the mfg process of plaid motors that's very groovy. Will post that later when I find it.)



As far as lithium goes, how can the element no 3 in the periodic table be so rare? The problem is other rare earths like Neodymium etc needed to make powerful magnets to generate the required torque smoothly and very very quickly. Tesla is known for sometimes scrapping cool designs for manufacturability.

I own some Tesla stock from few years ago, so I follow what they're doing now and then. Awesome nerdy good guys.

It makes a lot of sense to go nuclear+ solar + wind in that order, for powering the transportation sector. If we solve some important issues in a few years wrt storage and recycle the batteries very very strictly then electric propulsion transportation seems feasible for road and even sea. Not for any military usage anytime soon.

I remain a bit sceptical about hydrogen and bio fuels. They are a lot more difficult to produce, distribute, store onboard for H2. Ethanol's nett cost to the environment in terms of land usage, water, fertilizers, farming then fermentation and processing before putting it into some thermic motor that may not have better performance than the best fossil fuel motor today makes me highly doubtful how useful it will ever be.
Jmt, these are fast evolving fields so many things can change.

<sorry double post>

rajkumar wrote: I thought Mahindra were going to use the VW MEB (https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/ ... x-meb-3677) architecture for its future line up.

The VW MEB is still under development and Mahindra is going to license the tech to be used in India. At least that is the idea, and lot depends upon the VW MEB progress. If VW cans it, Mahindra sinks.

My point is, both Tata and Mahindra and other Indian car companies could have come up with a battery packaging tech working together and evolved the electric-drive-matrix kind-of tech and standardized on the batteries and invested into building the batteries in house with say Panasonic and investments from Reliance. There are lot of vehicles that need to be replaced with batteries and there is always room for three in each market segment (for eg. LCVs, UCVs, Semis, Small and Ultra-small commercial vehicles, Large Buses, Small Buses, MiniVans, Cars, Bikes, Autos etc).

Tata is a conglomerate. It can bring up say Tata Solar and come up with charging stations. And use, used Tesla car batteries there to charge at night! In one stroke it would have entered the "fuel supply" market. India imports @90% of its fuel or some USD $200 Billion. Let's say if it makes even 1% dent per year, we are talking of billions of USD per year. That will pay off the R&D in the first 10 years itself.

But then I never said that Indian companies (particularly auto companies) had vision. For example what stops Tata & Reliance to come together?

(1): https://www.zeebiz.com/markets/commodit ... tri-227963

Cyrano wrote: As far as lithium goes, how can the element no 3 in the periodic table be so rare? The problem is other rare earths like Neodymium etc needed to make powerful magnets to generate the required torque smoothly and very very quickly. Tesla is known for sometimes scrapping cool designs for manufacturability.

Cyrano'ji, people do not understand high school chemistry and then the worst of the batch become journos.

Lithium is less abundant in say Space (due to its transmutations etc) but is very plentiful in Earth's crust and occurs rarely in its elemental form in rocks. Because it is reactive, it always is bound to some or other mineral. Further, DDMs have promoted Lithium into "rare earth metal" which is sacrilege.

Even in battery recycling, Lithium is not the material that is recycled. The recycling is for really valuable metals like Nickel etc.

Cyrano wrote:It makes a lot of sense to go nuclear+ solar + wind in that order, for powering the transportation sector.

... I remain a bit sceptical about hydrogen and bio fuels. ... these are fast evolving fields so many things can change.

Stay tuned. Biofuels mean not only Ethanol. CH4 is the answer. I would put the preference order as nuclear + bio-methane + Solar. Wind power requires too much maintenance of the Wind mills and machinery. Solar, ofc, has the problem of recycling the Silly-con.