India-Russia: News & Analysis

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Philip
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

It beggars the Q,What are our much publicized "intl. air exercises in the US,UK,etc. for?" Like Republic Day flypasts and Aero-India aerobatics?

http://in.rbth.com/
Six reasons why India should join Russian air strikes in Syria

8 October 2015 Rakesh Krishnan Simha

Instead of always being a bystander during events of global import, it’s time India showed some spine and acted like a responsible power.

Two Russian SU-25 ground attack aircrafts take off from an airbase Hmeimim in Syria. Source:mil.ru

Warplanes from multiple countries are screaming through the skies over Syria. On the ground, terrorist groups are nibbling at Syria’s extremities. It is an environment that India should jump right into. Here are six good reasons why India needs to send its well-trained and ferocious military to defend beleaguered Syria.

India needs to show support for an ally

Currently, Russia is conducting airstrikes against ISIS, al-Qaeda and CIA-backed terror groups all by itself. The Russian Air Force has brought a strong detachment of jet fighters and bombers to Syria, but the fact remains that it is a solo act. Iran has provided shock troops to fight on the ground, but no aircraft. India should send at least a squadron of jets for joint air strikes with the Russian Air Force against terror groups. This is a matter that concerns India’s only strategic partner. When your friend is in a fight, you enter the fray.

India’s counter-terror expertise can be a game changer

India’s experience in counter terrorism could play a decisive role in combating ISIS as well as CIA supported terrorist groups such as the so-called Free Syrian Army. The Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Army have been fighting extremists in Kashmir and eastern India for decades. India also stamped out separatism in Punjab after a take-no-prisoners campaign that lasted nearly 20-years. Such valuable counter terror experience is precisely what Russia would appreciate having on its side in the Syrian war.

India’s armed forces will gain invaluable experience

Significant events are happening over Syrian airspace and beyond. Turkish Air Force F-16s that attempted to come close to the action got a taste of Russian airpower when MiG-29s interceptors – providing top cover – achieved radar lock on the F-16s. Turkey’s military admitted that as many as eight Turkish F-16 jets patrolling the Turkish-Syrian border were “painted” by a MiG-29 as well as surface-to-air missile systems based in Syria in two separate incidents.

This is an eerie replication of the 1999 Kargil War when Indian MiG-29s – which were providing top cover to IAF jets targeting Pakistani intruders – achieved missile locks on Pakistan Air Force F-16s, forcing the latter to disengage from the battle.

The airspace over Syria is an environment that India’s MiG-29 and Sukhoi-30MKI pilots would relish. Not only would they be right at home in the Syrian cauldron, Indian pilots will also gain experience in a 21st century battlefield environment involving western air forces. The IAF can also test its ability to quickly airlift Indian troops into a war zone.

After the bombardment by Russian and Indian aircraft, the Indian Army would savour the prospect of mopping up the remnants of the ISIS as well as CIA-backed rebel groups.

Fight them in Syria, not at home

There will be plenty of naysayers who will argue India should not enter the mess because they fear the country will end up on the ISIS radar. But the point is to fight – and exterminate – ISIS in its home base than in India. ISIS should not be given any breathing space which would allow them to expand out of the Middle East. India – like Russia – faces a serious threat from these media and technology savvy terrorist organisations that are able to radicalise its citizens via the internet. India, therefore, has every right to destroy ISIS in its breeding grounds before it becomes a threat at home.

India’s stock will rise globally

Despite sending spectacular missions to the Moon and Mars and becoming an IT superpower, India is still known as the land of holy men, tigers and Gandhi. What the country needs is an image makeover. If India sends its armed forces to Syria, its stock will rise globally as one of the few countries able to hit the ISIS. We are talking about fighting the world’s most vicious rebel group, whose terror tactics have achieved the impossible task of making al-Qaeda look like a moderate bunch.

There is an ancient Indian saying – the brave shall inherit the earth. India’s leadership needs to bite the bullet.

India’s entry will be a landmark geopolitical event

The Russian airstrikes in Syria could be the beginning of a more assertive BRICS group. Until now it was the West which was enforcing no-fly zones and dictating terms. Now the Russian side is doing it – not against small, defenceless countries but against real terrorists who are a global menace. This is a significant development because Russia is finally taking decisive military action and has received wide support internationally.

Importantly, Russian air strikes against opponents of the secular Bashar al-Assad government have decapitated American foreign policy in the Middle East. People in the Middle East have front row seats to the wilting of American power in the face of a determined Russia.

India has rarely intervened outside the scope of the United Nations. The country is known as the reluctant superpower because it rarely ventures into global hot spots. If India sends its mighty defence forces to support Syria, it would have the weight of over 1.2 billion people saying no to terrorist groups holding a peaceful and secular country to ransom.

This is history in the making – don’t sit it out.
habal
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by habal »

Sorry philip, that isn't possible. Lot's of bureaucrats have their children in USA and many have even obtained green cards. Siding with Russia and bombing Syria now may create problems for the bachchas.
srin
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by srin »

Now I've seen everything on BRF :) Of all reasons to engage in war ...

Anyway, we have enough guerrilla wars to fight at home and we have pretty skilled armed forces. It just isn't in our interest to fight with Russians. This is the time to acquire more weapons and ammo, not to expend them on wars that don't mean anything for us.
Philip
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

Provocative yeah?! But as I said,it beggars the big Q.What the F are we doing about Paki terror? What is all the billions of arms that we possess worth if we cannot be bold and brave enough to take out the jihadi scum in their lairs? If we can't deal with our enemies in our own backyard,who will trust us or rely upon us around the globe? All the mil exercises being conducted with Oz,Japan,the US,et al are worthless if we cannot defend our core interests and keep taking sh*t from Pak and insults from China.

Secondly,if we want a UNSC seat,keeping as quiet as a scaredy cat or mouthless mouse on the key global issues,it makes us look weak and impoten.A state that has no opinion or policy of its own,always wanting to follow someone else's lead earns little respect.That never happened during Mrs. G's time.India was respected by both superpowers for our frothright stance on key events.Yet we simply fold our hands and say "namaste",when the West leaves us out in talks on Afghanistan,when NATO-from Europe have front seats! If we behave like butlers,we'll be treated like butlers.

Just wait when China joins the fray,most probably in Iraq.
JE Menon
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by JE Menon »

Did Russia consult with us before it started bombing in Syria? I suspect not. Though I could be wrong.
Viv S
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Viv S »

habal wrote:Sorry philip, that isn't possible. Lot's of bureaucrats have their children in USA and many have even obtained green cards. Siding with Russia and bombing Syria now may create problems for the bachchas.
Bureaucrats? Green cards? How about the matter of the 5 million Indians working in the Gulf and remitting nearly $50 billion of foreign exchange to India annually?
Viv S
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:It beggars the Q,What are our much publicized "intl. air exercises in the US,UK,etc. for?"[/b] Like Republic Day flypasts and Aero-India aerobatics?

Has the IAF been carrying out all those training exercises so it could one day help the Russian military keep Assad in power?

Philip wrote:Provocative yeah?! But as I said,it beggars the big Q.What the F are we doing about Paki terror? What is all the billions of arms that we possess worth if we cannot be bold and brave enough to take out the jihadi scum in their lairs? If we can't deal with our enemies in our own backyard,who will trust us or rely upon us around the globe? All the mil exercises being conducted with Oz,Japan,the US,et al are worthless if we cannot defend our core interests and keep taking sh*t from Pak and insults from China.

Right... so our response to Pakistan should come in the form of air-strikes 4000 km away in Syria?

Philip wrote:Secondly,if we want a UNSC seat,keeping as quiet as a scaredy cat or mouthless mouse on the key global issues,it makes us look weak and impoten.A state that has no opinion or policy of its own,always wanting to follow someone else's lead earns little respect.That never happened during Mrs. G's time.India was respected by both superpowers for our frothright stance on key events.Yet we simply fold our hands and say "namaste",when the West leaves us out in talks on Afghanistan,when NATO-from Europe have front seats!If we behave like butlers,we'll be treated like butlers.

We've lived without a seat in UNSC for the last 65 years, we can live without it for the next 65 years if we must, if the alternative is sacrificing Indian lives where Russian Indian interests are not at stake. Whatever obligations we have to the world community, we have more than satisfied through our contributions in Indian peacekeeping efforts.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Karan M »

Cosmo_R wrote:@KaranM ^^:" ..On the other hand, we have got SSBN tech from Russia, strat programs have benefited in some ways - so its not all black and white either."

It can be pretty black and white if we want. We pay Russia directly for the SSBN tech, strat programs etc. What we don't have to do is save their shipyards, MiG, Sukhoi, MiL etc on a hidden open ended basis through science projects.

The mere fact they would not even let the IAF see the PAK/FA after the engine incident or reveal any details, smells.

The best thing that can happen to us is that Pakistan has to pay for its weaponry. The Russians are not going to supply stuff on a coalition support funds basis. They want hard dollars. And extra for such things as spare parts like tires on the SU-35.

Who are the Russians going to sell SSBN tech to? PRC? Pakistan? Iran?
Our problem has been simple. Russians allow us into their science projects. Rest of the world doesn't or asks for too high a price. We joined the IAI Barak-8 science project. Lots of moolah spent, and IAI is hawking it everywhere. At the end of the day, we have to build our own capabilities. These "easy options" turn out to be anything but.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Karan M »

WTF?!? Why should we jump into a ME mess and bomb a dictators opponents so that he can remain in power? Meanwhile, why should we undertake combat ops and make open enemies of Islamists who are hitherto focused on the west and nearer geographical targets?
Philip in his luvv for Russia seem to have lost all sense.
As regards being only good for flypasts and what nots, I suggest he make a trip to Kashmir or the NE and see what the IA and IAF do everyday to protect his noble self.
India's armed forces are for India's protection not for general imperialism of a confused, messy kind. Whether it is pro-one-group or anti.
kit
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by kit »

:mrgreen: so why isnt China bombing in west asia ? same reason as india ..more to gain from not doing it !!
srin
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by srin »

Finally found the article I was searching for weeks. This is about the Iraq war but the same context in light of Philliposky's post.

Who Won Iraq? EVERYONE THAT STAYED OUT
1) In a big bloodbath like the Thirty Years War or WWI, the winner is usually the powers that don't fight, but dabble in spycraft and wet ops, meanwhile consolidating their own economic power.

2) The biggest loser is almost always the country on whose territory the war is fought. (Note: You could argue that America entered WWII fairly early and still came out ahead, but on the European Front up to D-Day our role was supplying materiel to the Russians and letting them do all the bleeding for us. On both fronts we were far away from the action and that allowed us to pick where and when to commit money and troops, so the generalization still holds: the further away you are, the better.)

3) In a regional war, the big winner will be any neighboring states that can stay out of the war and work out supply contracts with the richer combatant (Thailand during Nam, Argentina in WWI, Switzerland in every war since Ur took on Ur South).

4) However, if there's an ethnic spillover, like Turkey has with the Kurds, this relationship can backfire.

5) The worst thing a major power can do is go to war alone for "moral" reasons. This is how medieval France wasted its huge advantages on pointless Middle Eastern crusades that did nothing but revitalize the Muslims and drive down the price of white slaves in the Cairo market.
NRao
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by NRao »

Sorry philip, that isn't possible. Lot's of bureaucrats have their children in USA and many have even obtained green cards. Siding with Russia and bombing Syria now may create problems for the bachchas.
Man, this takes the cake. :)

You got my vote for sure.

BTW, the author of that article - egging India to join the fun - has migrated to New Zealand. A card of a different color I guess.
Last edited by NRao on 10 Oct 2015 01:52, edited 1 time in total.
Vipul
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vipul »

India’s ties with Russia are freezing over.

President Vladimir Putin talked tough on Syria in his New York meeting with President Barack Obama. He signalled that Russia was no longer prepared to acquiesce in unilateral American actions in West Asia, despite American sanctions imposed on it, following its actions in Ukraine and Crimea.

What has emerged is a more assertive Russian role to challenge destabilising and disastrous American policies in Iraq, Libya and most notably Syria. Ill-advised American actions in West Asia have resulted in the rise of the barbaric ISIL and a massive refugee exodus from conflict zones, which has destabilised Europe. What is now emerging is an unannounced Russia-China partnership backed by Iran, Iraq and the Assad dispensation in Damascus, to counter American unilateralism and dominance in West Asia.

Coincidentally, these Russian moves coincided with a visit to New Delhi on September 15 by Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov. The Russian envoy focused attention on the expansion of membership of the UN Security Council and the situation in Syria. Gatilov paid lip service to support for India’s candidature for permanent membership of the Security Council. Moscow, thereafter, chose to join China and Pakistan in seeking to undermine the G- 4 initiative in the General Assembly, which aimed for an early decision on restructuring the Security Council.

Interestingly, no meeting was scheduled between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Putin in New York. Moscow has made no secret of its concerns about the US getting an increasing share in defence acquisitions by India.

Faced with unrelenting American hostility and sanctions, Russia now appears to have taken a decision to respond strongly in West Asia and elsewhere. It will strengthen its partnership with China, even if it involves acting as a junior partner of China in crucial areas like the Afpak region and in Central Asia, where China has seized effective control of access to energy resources. This has eroded the historical dominance of Moscow in the oil and gas sectors, in its south-eastern, Central Asian neighbourhood.

In Afghanistan, Russia plays a silent partner to Chinese-Pakistani initiatives seeking ‘reconciliation’ with the Taliban. This is happening even as the Taliban, joined by the remnants of Chechen resistance and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, seizes control of Kunduz, sending shivers down the spines of neighbouring Central Asian states, such as Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

There has also been a noticeable shift on relations with Pakistan, now described by Russian academics as Russia’s “South Asian gatekeeper”, and even on Pakistan-sponsored terrorism. The India-Russia joint statement in 2003 called for Pakistan “to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan and Pakistan controlled territory (POK).”

The Russians now avoid mentioning any linkage between Pakistan and terrorism. This became noticeable after Pakistan’s foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, and army chief, General Kayani, visited Moscow in 2012 and issues of Russian defence supplies were broached.

What followed was an agreement for Russia to supply RD 93 engines directly for JF 17 fighters being assembled in Pakistan with Chinese collaboration. Things moved further ahead after the visit of General Raheel Sharif to Russia, with Sergei Ryabkov, the deputy foreign minister, describing Pakistan as Moscow’s “closest partner” and promising to supply Pakistan advanced Sukhoi 35 fighters and MI 35 attack helicopters. Sukhoi 35 fighters are also being sold to China. Cash-strapped Pakistan, slated to acquire Israeli-designed advanced J 10 fighters from China, can hardly afford to pay for Russian fighter aircraft.

The modernisation of China’s arsenal over the last two decades has largely come about by the acquisition of equipment ranging from fighter aircraft and surface-to-air missiles, to warships, from Russia. Moscow is, however, less than happy at the manner in which China has violated copyrights and reverse engineered defence equipment it has supplied to Beijing. But Moscow has few options now, faced with the falling prices of oil, gas and other natural resources, amidst growing concerns in western Europe about excessive dependence on oil and gas supplies from Russia At the same time, Russia is miffed at the manner in which China reneged on a $400-billion, 30-year agreement on purchase of Russian natural gas, reached with Putin last year.

Russia is seeking to complement its own plans for a ‘Eurasian Union’ with China’s grandiose ‘one belt one road’ initiative, while envisaging expanding economic connectivity with Iran, Saarc and China. Its strategic thinkers would like to construct an Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline and extend it to China while hoping that India could be persuaded to go along, even if the pipeline is constructed through POK. The military dimensions of this thinking can be gleaned from the fact that in recent months there have been joint military exercises between China and Russia not only on Pacific shores, but also, for the first time, on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea, even as Moscow was planning its Syrian deployments.

It remains to be seen whether, given its economic limitations, Moscow can fulfil these grandiose plans. It will live to regret its U-turn on the Taliban, once the impact of Taliban medievalism is felt by its Central Asian partners. While the Taliban may appear like “good guys” in comparison to the ISIL, which has been reinforced by hundreds of Chechens, there is nothing to suggest that the Taliban have changed their ideological inclinations, or forsaken their erstwhile Chechen and Central Asian partners. Nor is there any reason to believe that groups such as the Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Haqqani Network are going to abandon their Islamist propensities.

India has experienced Moscow’s flirtations with Pakistan and China in the past and seen them end in disappointment for Russia. Moreover, the Russians cannot forget the enthusiasm with which Mao and Deng made U-turns to embrace the US and dumped them. New Delhi will hopefully strengthen its extensive engagement with Moscow and advise it on how best its firms can take advantage of its new ‘Make in India’ policies, while strengthening their robust defence partnership. At the same time, Moscow would be well advised to understand precisely what India’s concerns are.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vipul »

India’s ties with Russia are freezing over.

President Vladimir Putin talked tough on Syria in his New York meeting with President Barack Obama. He signalled that Russia was no longer prepared to acquiesce in unilateral American actions in West Asia, despite American sanctions imposed on it, following its actions in Ukraine and Crimea.

What has emerged is a more assertive Russian role to challenge destabilising and disastrous American policies in Iraq, Libya and most notably Syria. Ill-advised American actions in West Asia have resulted in the rise of the barbaric ISIL and a massive refugee exodus from conflict zones, which has destabilised Europe. What is now emerging is an unannounced Russia-China partnership backed by Iran, Iraq and the Assad dispensation in Damascus, to counter American unilateralism and dominance in West Asia.

Coincidentally, these Russian moves coincided with a visit to New Delhi on September 15 by Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov. The Russian envoy focused attention on the expansion of membership of the UN Security Council and the situation in Syria. Gatilov paid lip service to support for India’s candidature for permanent membership of the Security Council. Moscow, thereafter, chose to join China and Pakistan in seeking to undermine the G- 4 initiative in the General Assembly, which aimed for an early decision on restructuring the Security Council.

Interestingly, no meeting was scheduled between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Putin in New York. Moscow has made no secret of its concerns about the US getting an increasing share in defence acquisitions by India.

Faced with unrelenting American hostility and sanctions, Russia now appears to have taken a decision to respond strongly in West Asia and elsewhere. It will strengthen its partnership with China, even if it involves acting as a junior partner of China in crucial areas like the Afpak region and in Central Asia, where China has seized effective control of access to energy resources. This has eroded the historical dominance of Moscow in the oil and gas sectors, in its south-eastern, Central Asian neighbourhood.

In Afghanistan, Russia plays a silent partner to Chinese-Pakistani initiatives seeking ‘reconciliation’ with the Taliban. This is happening even as the Taliban, joined by the remnants of Chechen resistance and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, seizes control of Kunduz, sending shivers down the spines of neighbouring Central Asian states, such as Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

There has also been a noticeable shift on relations with Pakistan, now described by Russian academics as Russia’s “South Asian gatekeeper”, and even on Pakistan-sponsored terrorism. The India-Russia joint statement in 2003 called for Pakistan “to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan and Pakistan controlled territory (POK).”

The Russians now avoid mentioning any linkage between Pakistan and terrorism. This became noticeable after Pakistan’s foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, and army chief, General Kayani, visited Moscow in 2012 and issues of Russian defence supplies were broached.

What followed was an agreement for Russia to supply RD 93 engines directly for JF 17 fighters being assembled in Pakistan with Chinese collaboration. Things moved further ahead after the visit of General Raheel Sharif to Russia, with Sergei Ryabkov, the deputy foreign minister, describing Pakistan as Moscow’s “closest partner” and promising to supply Pakistan advanced Sukhoi 35 fighters and MI 35 attack helicopters. Sukhoi 35 fighters are also being sold to China. Cash-strapped Pakistan, slated to acquire Israeli-designed advanced J 10 fighters from China, can hardly afford to pay for Russian fighter aircraft.

The modernisation of China’s arsenal over the last two decades has largely come about by the acquisition of equipment ranging from fighter aircraft and surface-to-air missiles, to warships, from Russia. Moscow is, however, less than happy at the manner in which China has violated copyrights and reverse engineered defence equipment it has supplied to Beijing. But Moscow has few options now, faced with the falling prices of oil, gas and other natural resources, amidst growing concerns in western Europe about excessive dependence on oil and gas supplies from Russia At the same time, Russia is miffed at the manner in which China reneged on a $400-billion, 30-year agreement on purchase of Russian natural gas, reached with Putin last year.

Russia is seeking to complement its own plans for a ‘Eurasian Union’ with China’s grandiose ‘one belt one road’ initiative, while envisaging expanding economic connectivity with Iran, Saarc and China. Its strategic thinkers would like to construct an Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline and extend it to China while hoping that India could be persuaded to go along, even if the pipeline is constructed through POK. The military dimensions of this thinking can be gleaned from the fact that in recent months there have been joint military exercises between China and Russia not only on Pacific shores, but also, for the first time, on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea, even as Moscow was planning its Syrian deployments.

It remains to be seen whether, given its economic limitations, Moscow can fulfil these grandiose plans. It will live to regret its U-turn on the Taliban, once the impact of Taliban medievalism is felt by its Central Asian partners. While the Taliban may appear like “good guys” in comparison to the ISIL, which has been reinforced by hundreds of Chechens, there is nothing to suggest that the Taliban have changed their ideological inclinations, or forsaken their erstwhile Chechen and Central Asian partners. Nor is there any reason to believe that groups such as the Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Haqqani Network are going to abandon their Islamist propensities.

India has experienced Moscow’s flirtations with Pakistan and China in the past and seen them end in disappointment for Russia. Moreover, the Russians cannot forget the enthusiasm with which Mao and Deng made U-turns to embrace the US and dumped them. New Delhi will hopefully strengthen its extensive engagement with Moscow and advise it on how best its firms can take advantage of its new ‘Make in India’ policies, while strengthening their robust defence partnership. At the same time, Moscow would be well advised to understand precisely what India’s concerns are.
NRao
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by NRao »

Predictable.

Nothing to worry about. Need to adjust to new realities. India will do very well, IMHO.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Gyan »

India is like a kid in forties who does not want to grow up and take responsibility to manage his own kitchen. He is always whinning for mommy or daddy to cook him food. Indian dependance on imports is shameless, comic, absurd, idiotic and dangerous.

Instead of wasting our money on CWG, MNREGA type scams, if we increase our R&D budget to Rs. 100,000 crore per annum from Rs. 15,000 crores, suddenly every one in the world will find love in their heart for us and respect for our concerns.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by JwalaMukhi »

This is direct result of wasted years of license-permit-quota-control Nehruvian era for all along, with soviet-china-bhai-bhai nonsense.
India just has had chance to have real freedom, not completely yet. There is a powerful cabal which is interested and struck with old style of functioning along with loyalties built up over years. This has directly led to active promotion of Russian interests with Indian interests being a byproduct of that. There is every lobby (Russian lobby, china lobby, saudi lobby, unkil lobby) in the lutyens circle and it is still very active. The babucracy is extremely seeped in that culture of looking out for every other interests to the determinant of Indian interests.
It is very hard to break such institutional bias. The awful and pitiable state of Indian production and manufacturing is nothing short of suicide and was actively promoted and abetted by Lenin, Stalin eras, where the drug addict was supplied with drugs on loan.
Hopefully, the pitiable babucracy is soon replaced by a new generation. There is no hope for the old foggies, who are struck in their ways and can't and will not change. Modi's administration has had tough time dealing with the movers and shakers to change the culture. It will take time, but there is no other way out. Else one could be a vassal. Being a vassal of Russia is NOT ON.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Y. Kanan »

NRao wrote:Predictable.

Nothing to worry about. Need to adjust to new realities. India will do very well, IMHO.
OK, so we've jumped into the American camp with both feet, but I'm not sure what we're getting in return (if the past in any guide, the US will repay us with lies and treachery). Russia will drift away and their relationship with India will become more like France, selling advanced arms to both sides and backing neither. China is backing Russia's play in the ME, but we're not, which will have the effect of bringing those two countries closer together and lead to Russia viewing Pakistan and India as equal-equal. Russia may even shift towards Pakistan. In any case they'll certainly drop the pretense of keeping us happy and will sell whatever the Porkis can pay for.

If India had joined the Sino-Russian effort in Syria, we could have forged an alliance between all three powers (Russia + China + India), which would have had the effect of peeling China away from Pakistan as its all-weather ally. That's not going to happen now, which leaves me wondering where that leaves India in a few years.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by NRao »

As far as I can tell India is NO "camp". Modi had decided to pick what he needed from each player out there: US for tech and like, Russia for energy, China for finance, Japan for infrastructure, ............

I really think he has a great game plan (outside of internal affairs) and he is following his script. It is very predictable.

The problem is that Modi has very little time and has to massage the humongous egos in that very short span of time. And, it is not working according to plan - which is part of life.

But, sure, you are right that it appears that India has jumped both feet into the US "camp". And, Putin is in a real hurry.

That is not what Modi's script had. : (
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by NRao »

forged an alliance between all three powers (Russia + China + India)
Sure, that is one option.

But the other that has already been formed is the India-US-Japan. And perhaps to include Australia soon? Then to boot UK + France to keep rear end cleared.

The trilateral stuff is all but three days old - while all thus hulla gulla is going on. (Which is why I say India needs to make a move in A'stan + Baluchistan.)

Then:
India has launched a naval diplomacy campaign to garner support from Australia, Japan and Vietnam for countering China's maritime expansion into the Indian Ocean

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Viv S »

Y. Kanan wrote:OK, so we've jumped into the American camp with both feet, but I'm not sure what we're getting in return (if the past in any guide, the US will repay us with lies and treachery). Russia will drift away and their relationship with India will become more like France, selling advanced arms to both sides and backing neither. China is backing Russia's play in the ME, but we're not, which will have the effect of bringing those two countries closer together and lead to Russia viewing Pakistan and India as equal-equal. Russia may even shift towards Pakistan. In any case they'll certainly drop the pretense of keeping us happy and will sell whatever the Porkis can pay for.
Who started the drift? India by buying arms from the US, or Russia by selling arms to China?
If India had joined the Sino-Russian effort in Syria, we could have forged an alliance between all three powers (Russia + China + India), which would have had the effect of peeling China away from Pakistan as its all-weather ally. That's not going to happen now, which leaves me wondering where that leaves India in a few years.
I've heard the same hope expressed by Russians nationalists everywhere. They'd 'settle' for an alliance with China but would prefer to include India so that the alliance is less lopsided in China's favour.

Given the whole 'lies and treachery' bit, its odd that you'd judge China's potential as an 'ally' to be to better, if it betrayed its higher-than-mountains-deeper-than-seas, 50 years old, relationship with Pakistan. Not that the Chinese have ever displayed an iota of interest in taking any such action as evidenced by the upcoming China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by NRao »

That does NOT mean Russia is sidelined. Just that India (read Modi) had determined that Russia can contribute in the energy sector. And, that Russia is not as capable in other sectors as other nations are.

Indians need to think about this and base their opinions.

This is NOT a pro or anti some nation. It - IMHO - is a pro-India policy.

Sure it would hurt most nations for sure. It also reduces their leverage in some ways. But Indian funds are there to support a few sectors within each nation. I see it as win-win. So, as an example India will spend billions on oil/gas with Russia, but not on defense. We naturally tend to see the "not to" branch and arrive at conclusions. I would suggest that people look at the other branch and see how it very well fits everyone.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by member_23370 »

India and Russia already have strategic defense relationship. There is little to no trust or relationship with US. Its purely transactional and is meant to keep china in check. PAK-FA and Indian SSN's will need Russian help and US is not being consulted in any of there critical projects.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Viv S »

Bheeshma wrote:India and Russia already have strategic defense relationship. There is little to no trust or relationship with US. Its purely transactional and is meant to keep china in check. PAK-FA and Indian SSN's will need Russian help and US is not being consulted in any of there critical projects.
Our relationship with Russia, or rather the Soviet Union started out in the same 'transactional' way. We found common ground in our antagonistic relations with the US & China (with whom the Soviets had fought a minor border conflict in 1969) culminating in the Indo-Soviet Friendship Treaty, 1971.

With the fall of the USSR, Russia chose to re-evaluate its relationship with China, regardless of Indian apprehensions. As an internally weak & near-bankrupt state, we weren't strong enough as a market or as an ally. Though winds of change eventually shifted in our favour and have continued to blow, China will remain a far stronger state for at least another two decades.

Substantial ToT on the PAK FA is unlikely to be granted, given that permission for an Indian test pilot to merely fly one of the prototypes is yet to be sanctioned. The extent of Russian involvement in the SSN program is unknown. The Indian Navy is however engaged in SSN discussions with both the US and France (and probably the UK too).
Last edited by Viv S on 10 Oct 2015 06:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by NRao »

None of these relations are a zero sum game. More like a dynamic Venn diagram.

Besides each nation is acting in her own interest. One cannot and should not actually see Russian decision on Indian SC ambitions as a departure. Perhaps as a surprise because of the sudden and unexpected turn (assuming that is the case). But Russia did what was in her interest. India will, when the time comes, too - perhaps the "leaning" towards the US is seen by Russia as that.

On the topic of Russia providing a nuclear boat - it is a very important step, no two ways about that. But, equally important would be the multilateral relationships with other nations. One cannot discount those steps - no way.

But, I would agree that the Indo-US relationship has a ways to go. Also that the US is not a homogeneous entity from an Indian pov. One should expect different reactions from different entities within the US establishment - they have babus too. Entrenched, biased, etc. But, expect Russia to move to that model. The rise of India will mean such reactions.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by member_23370 »

SSN discussion with france USA is a non starter and is simply a media trial balloon. It will not happen.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Austin »

India must 'speed up talks' on free trade zone with Eurasian Economic Union
9 October 2015 Sputnik
India must accelerate talks on the establishment of a free trade zone with the Eurasian Economic Union (EEU), allowing the country to enter a new market, India’s Minister of State for Agriculture and Farmers Welfare told Sputnik Friday.

In June, the EEU and India began free trade negotiations, signing a framework agreement at the International Economic Forum in St. Petersburg.

"India is very keen to have a free trade agreement as it opens up a new market of Eurasian Economic Union countries," Mohanbhai Kundariya said. "We need to speed it up."

The Eurasian Economic Union, comprising Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Russia, aims to foster greater economic integration between its member states, including the streamlined flow of goods, services, capital and labor.

"We have already formed a joint working group. But we want the joint study group to work faster to resolve issues to reach faster the free trade agreement," the minister added.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Bhurishrava »

IMHO; That India has jumped into US camp or Russia is about to sell Sukhois to Pakistan is shallow analysis. Indian foreign policy is working just fine. They are not getting involved in other people`s mess.
And it is incomprehensible to see how a Russia, China, India axis can be built merely by our participation in Russian geopolitical moves. This is more the way Russians see it than Indians. The centre focus of China is East Asia and south China sea region. The focus of India is south Asia. Neither state is actually interested in Ukraine or Syria.
Indian relationship with Russia is good and strong. India coninued to find ways to pay Iran during the sanction days. We have even better ties with Russia. Its not a zero sum game for us. The day it becomes, we should choose the side that forces us not to.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by kit »

India and Russia will remain friends and engaged , have more common interests than differences ! . The marriage looks set to endure despite flings and one night stands :mrgreen:
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Austin »

If any one interested in trains which is more interesting then geo-politics and military :)

EP-20 is the latest passenger coming in service in Russian railways since 2011 , Fine engine by any standard

Designed for top speed of 200 Km and for CIS countries jointly designed by Alstom-Transmashholding

Specs http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transport/ ... uage=en-GB

Video are not much on internet but this is one pretty video of EP20 passing through snow



And another one moving at 198 km

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Y. Kanan »

I understand the urge by many Indians to take a cautious "wait and see" approach to the Russian gambit in Syria. But the catch is, Russia's deployment to Syria has the potential to remake the world order, but only if they succeed. If the Russians fail, India's position will be ultimately weakened. It's not in our interests for the US and the Saudi bloc to win in Syria\Iraq. Should that happen, we all know what comes next. Flush with victory, the Gulf powers and Pakistan will stage a big push to reconquer Afghanistan, and then spread the jihad to Central Asia and India itself. It will be the 1990's all over again, with Sunni Islam on the march while India stands alone.

So we need a Russian victory in order to bring about a multipolar world order which ultimately benefits India (for a variety of reasons not just security).
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

Madam Sus is to go to Rus to work out the nuts and bolts of the visit of Mr.M next month. The aim appears to be to work out as many agreements as poss..
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vipul »

Concentrate on a couple of Akulas, S400 system, check what other more powerful reactors/know-how can be had for the next line of ATV's and yes discuss FGFA and MTA's on more chai, biskoot and samosa's.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by A_Gupta »

Putin spells out Russian policy: Youtube with English subtitles: https://youtu.be/HZVgDQYp4GA
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Austin »

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by NRao »

I understand the urge by many Indians to take a cautious "wait and see" approach to the Russian gambit in Syria
I think I read a quote from MEA traveling with the Pres in Jordan, that India's position is that Russia is in Syria to combat ISIS. No?
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Prem »

A_Gupta wrote:Putin spells out Russian policy: Youtube with English subtitles: https://youtu.be/HZVgDQYp4GA
Putin at 15 Minute: We intend to Develop BRAHMOS further with Indian partner.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Cosmo_R »

Is 'sputnik news' a Russian mouthpiece? Anyone?
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

Sputnik was the name given to the world's first orbiting sat (in this epoch of human history).

Talk about Ripley's "Believe it or not"!
Second Time Lucky? France Says It Is Ready to Sell New Ships to Russia

09:51 14.10.2015
French president Francois Hollande says Paris is looking to sell new ships to Russia; the announcement comes after France cancelled a long-standing deal for Mistral-class helicopter carriers originally built for Russia, eventually re-selling the warships to Egypt.

France is looking to sell new ships to Russia in the future, French President Francois Hollande said on Tuesday during his visit to the shipyard of Saint-Nazaire in western France.

"Things went well with Russia, which has agreed to cancel the contract. And I even think we'll get partnerships for new ships," Hollande said.

He didn't specify whether they would be military ships. Neither did he say if Russia is willing to buy anything from France in the future.

The French president came aboard one of the warships, originally named the Vladivostok, in reference to the Russian port. The inscription on the hull has been erased and replaced by grey paint.

The Mistral sale was supposed to be the biggest arms sale ever by a NATO country to Russia, until the deal fell apart because of the Ukraine crisis.

The Mistral-class helicopter carrier Vladivostok is seen at the STX Les Chantiers de l'Atlantique shipyard site in Saint-Nazaire

Russian Firm Offers to Fit Egypt’s Mistral Ships With Electronics, Radar
France refunded the 950 million euros ($1 billion) already paid by Russia and sold the ships to Egypt, which signed a 950 million-euro contract last week.

Egypt emerged as France’s replacement customer for the Mistrals in September 2015.

"I had to sell them to a country that needed to ensure its own security but didn't threaten anyone," Hollande said.

The ships are supposed to arrive in Egypt in summer 2016 but first they should be de-equipped of Russian-developed command, control and communication systems.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20151014/1 ... z3oi3Q7ERM
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