Indian Education System

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 22 Sep 2015 03:51

Instead of closing they (the engg. colleges which have vacant seats) should downgrade themselves to Polytechnics or even ITIs. That way they will help Make In India in a small way as well as get a chance to recoup at least part of their investment.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 22 Sep 2015 04:11

The closing down of fraudulent 'engineering colleges' is a good thing. They can be substituted by online degrees for those who really want them.

And please we're not talking about places of any standard here. These are tier 4 'fake' colleges where people pass out knowing less than when they entered.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 22 Sep 2015 05:16

Where do the lab experience come from online degrees, especially in the sciences and engineering ? If they even have a brick and mortar existence with labs/workshop why cannot these serve as centers for augmenting online degrees too ?

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 22 Sep 2015 06:28

Fraudulent engineering colleges have labs?

These places exist solely to get some money out of gullible students in the name of awarding a 'degree'. Usually they are set up with the help of a local politician who gets his cut.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 22 Sep 2015 06:31

I hope they have a workshop at least.

So why was AICTE sitting on the behinds for so long ?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Sep 2015 09:53

Plenty of capable talent exists down stream of the 100% state rank types. It is these out of the way colleges that are producing the engineers our construction, manufacturing, IT industries are built on. There is no need to get snobbish and snooty about the smaller institutes. My opinion is because these engineers actually stay and build India they are more important than all the IIT's & Elite institutes put together, at least economically speaking... ..shut down those tax sucking elite parasites, except the handful of exceptional ones, India will do just fine without them. But don't shut down the down scale engineering colleges. They are cheap and many are VFM. The students know which ones are good, the market place is sorting things out, why intervene when you don't have to... ..even the USA does not shut down the small cheap out of the way community college types.. ...what ever you do keep the foolish babugiri's out... ..I say that as an ex-Babu myself... I can't beleive people are demanding the same old same old disaster that brought us decades of stagnation... Free the higher education structure, set them to openly compete for students and fees and investment, and you will see far better results... ..infact last 10 years has produced more skilled folks than than the previous 60 years combined did, that it self should tell you how inane this conversation is...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 09:59

Well ,mostly these colleges are in Ktk and TN who had first mover advantage with political patronage and black money. With advent of "engineering" courses in IT , CSE, ECE, EEE etc they needed only computers and softwares and few equipment for circuits, processors testing etc to set up labs. These colleges have not started Mech or Civil or Ele as these would entail capital expenditure and workshop buildings. These colleges have fed india's export of IT Manpower getting much moolahs in remittance. Intake depends on job prospects more than on faculty. However to fault them would be erroneous. That was India's response to world demand for code coolies that attracted from top tier colleges like IITs to bottom rung certificate from NIITs alike. or else why do you think ECE and CSE commands high preference in IIT than a Mech and Civil.
The difference would be slight elevation of quality in case of IITs and NITs but would not be sufficient to feed the growing demand at all levels. Toilet just ran a report last week that except IITD and IISc no other institutes figure in world's top 200 technical colleges.IITD at 179 up from 235 and IISc at 147. Of course we can't blame the institutes or the students. We have to make do with what we have and try to improve constantly.

Now why AIcte is doing it now is that demand for Engineering seats have reduced and TN alone had 80000 seats vacant last year. This is due to regional imbalance in not promoting balanced growth in all regions as far as setting up engineering colleges are concerned. There are other reasons for this as well. Slow demand is creating havoc with gravy train of Aicte not that they suddenly became quality conscious ( even IITs are below PAR by world standards) . For quality control we have NAAC and they should be taking care of this issue and hand hold colleges to achieve desired level.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 10:07

Theo_Fidel wrote:Plenty of capable talent exists down stream of the 100% state rank types. It is these out of the way colleges that are producing the engineers our construction, manufacturing, IT industries are built on. There is no need to get snobbish and snooty about the smaller institutes. My opinion is because these engineers actually stay and build India they are more important than all the IIT's & Elite institutes put together, at least economically speaking... ..shut down those tax sucking elite parasites, except the handful of exceptional ones, India will do just fine without them. But don't shut down the down scale engineering colleges. They are cheap and many are VFM. The students know which ones are good, the market place is sorting things out, why intervene when you don't have to... ..even the USA does not shut down the small cheap out of the way community college types.. ...what ever you do keep the foolish babugiri's out... ..I say that as an ex-Babu myself...

+100 Theo garu.

I once recruited a civil engineer from SC community who was unable to speak much english( your point abt finishing school) but quite ok with Tamizh ( technical understanding is not dependent upon English alone). Had good marks in subjects and willing to do things. Against all Board members advice we recruited him( had to stick my neck out) and he proved gem of a person in doing things required by organisation( many came recommended by MPs and others and went straight to dustbins). Not all civil engineers get to design Empire State Buildings. Requirements vary and we need not go by preconceived notions. Not all from IIT would have been interested in those jobs which required a degree in civil engineering.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 22 Sep 2015 10:17

csaurabh wrote:The closing down of fraudulent 'engineering colleges' is a good thing. They can be substituted by online degrees for those who really want them.

And please we're not talking about places of any standard here. These are tier 4 'fake' colleges where people pass out knowing less than when they entered.

Saar, 90% of colleges start with no labs, no teachers or low quality teachers. Then slowly labs are built, these low quality teachers start gaining experience and quality and then become just acceptable. Then the journey starts to being good. Talk to those who go to the latest iims, which have no buildings, faculty comes from other institutes on flying visits.

Any institution takes time. Private Engineering colleges were allowed in the 90s, can you think of any such colleges started in the 90s which are not considered half decent or above average today??

Those colleges are needed for the future of the country. Give them chances, warnings to develop - Dont support the babudom which look for bans because it increases their power and money.

Give them incentives. 15-20 of running decent engineering college allow them to expand into full fledged universities. Harvard started as a clergy training school.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 22 Sep 2015 10:30

By that logic lets keep IIPM running as well.. IIPM will get better with time..

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 22 Sep 2015 12:58

We are not talking of colleges providing education. Many of hese scam cfolks are run in cowsheds meant to fleece parents. Those are the colleges that need to be culled. Shape up or ship out.

Vadivel · Post by **Vadivel** » 22 Sep 2015 14:16

csaurabh wrote:By that logic lets keep IIPM running as well.. IIPM will get better with time..

Yes, or it might go down. But its not Babu or you or me to decide.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 22 Sep 2015 16:13

csaurabh wrote:By that logic lets keep IIPM running as well.. IIPM will get better with time..

IIPM is a symbol or symptom of non-availability of quality education options. The problem was simply, he wanted to dupe without having any intention to abide any laws today or in the future.

Lakhs of people who joined IIPM show the number of people who want to study MBA and such things. Provide them with options.

Do you think if IIMs had started accepting 100000 students, any person would have gone to IIPM.

I have seen engineering colleges of yesteryears which were called the same sh*t which you are calling these colleges today becoming the "apples" of engineering seekers. The comments and commentators have remained the same - only the commented have been replaced by newer colleges. But if they had been closed at the first instance, they wouldnt have had the opportunity to grow.

Stopping IIPM is the easiest thing to do - and the babudom is excellent at that. providing alternatives and understanding how institutions grow is completely different. There will always be a few bad apples, dont hurt and block the futures of the hundreds and thousands of students in the name of these rotten things.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 22 Sep 2015 17:08

Have you seen these cowsheds- I have. When my Son was writing his entrance exams you should see the COMEDK and another exam where they were soliciting people to "come visit our campus" etc desperately. Most of these places have no facilities etc and have been opened by politiciqans to make a quick buck.Agreed that some have seriously tried to improve and made their name. You can also argue it is simple market forces have played out and you can see it even in the CET counselling - seats just lie vacant as no one takes these colleges so what is the great fun having these open.Also I ahve personally seen some of these students who have been conned into getting a degree from there suffering as they do not get placements, are poorly trained and if you se they have employability rates of less than 5-15 % Such places are just scams and need to be closed and students can be shifted to centers which actually teach. I am not talking of places like IIT's etc but there are umpteen good local engineering colleges and these are doing well.It is the huge junk that needs to be culled out. Saying that babudom can do this or that is easy but can you also allow students to be conned.Places like IIPM practiced active deception by clever marketing and yes isn't that illegal ? You can't blame a regulator for that.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 22 Sep 2015 17:09

Also as a simple example go to the Karnataka CET website and see the number of colleges that have no or single digit admissions. Guess hwy there are no takers ?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Sep 2015 18:13

No one is forcing you to go there right. So what is your problem. VFM, not all students have the money to throw around and are willing to give up A/C comfort and most of the frills in lieu of a basic engineering education. As I said students are not fools, as you can see, they won't give up their hard earned money just anywhere... ..as evidenced by the desperation of they start-ups to visit their campus and decide for yourself... ..If the degree is accredited or non-accredited should be the only concern here, which is obviously the job of AICTE not being done. AICTE should also be educating students and parents on what to look for but again the fellows on high are no shows. AICTE should also demand that all the information is disclosed up front. In higher education for the masses market forces should be allowed to perform their job. This is far more effective than anything babugiri can come up with.... ...knowing babugiri first hand, it is the kiss of death and will destroy all the good along with the bad, much prefer students perform this weeding themselves with open eyes....

If someone wants a garbage, un-accredited degree from IIPM why should we stop such people. This is moral policing at this point. No one stops people from getting useless 'University of Phoenix' or even fake paper degree's even in USA, as long as all the data is revealed up front. Force the institute to be completely open and let the students decide. For gods sake, you can get a degree from the Lunar Institute, with picture of the moon and you in a spacesuit, along with a 1000 acre chunk of the moon if you want! good luck getting a job with that but... ...As long as no laws are being broken what exactly is the heart burn over cow sheds. ISRO started in a cowshed, actually thatched hut, Even MIT started in a 2 room miners cabin....

On a personal note I would like to mention that the government school I went to was thatched building with no electricity, 1 tap and 2 latrines for ~1000 students, quality of teachers was hit or miss, some did not even show up. These days babugiri would probably shut it down on the spot. I have never experienced any handicaps from this education, in fact many benefits. Many of my classmates populate the highest levels of industry and manufacturing and administration, several are in EU & Australia and USA. Just because they are attending a cowshed type school does not make them bad students, just their circumstances are difficult and options limited. Why deny them an ability to compete with others for jobs. We need to get over this snobbishness as a nation...

Again, I can't believe we are having this conversation. After all their disastrous failures in higher education, the babu's still have credibility on this board. I'm reminded of the IT industry and how such cowshed IT companies popped up when the babu's forgot to choke the life out of yet another sector of India. Anyone remember the vegetable oil company. Many of those cowshed companies closed but a few succeeded beyond our wildest dreams. Many times the babu's tried to kill these 2 room start ups for some reason or another... ..thankfully they never succeeded but not for lack of trying...

By some miracle a handful of states pulled of a true revolution in Higher education for India and now Babu's want to choke the life out of it and fellows line up 6 deep to back the babu's. Why do we have so much trouble letting the market decide.... ...what exactly do you fear competing in the job market with a student with a degree from a cowshed...

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 22 Sep 2015 19:12

So it is OK to run a Ponzi scheme or fraud and its all about caveat emptor. In the spirit of full disclosure does anyone here have an financial interest in these colleges ?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 19:29

AICTE will not give permission to start courses unless certain basic norms are met in terms of land, finance, infra and faculty. Still they would give only for at the most three courses to start with , with intake of 60 each, renewable each year. Full approval comes only at the end of fifth year. So Aicte is not doing its job well else such sub standard colleges would not have come up. BTW gone are the days of Cowshed colleges. There are none . May be remote locations, stand up faculty or hired books /computers for library / labs. But those days are also over. Most of the colleges meet basic Minimum requirements , which obviously is not enough for bright students with parents having money to spare. Such colleges don't attract placement companies and and hence less attractive for prospective students who are not into Engineering but into future job for which a certificate and some NIIT type Java course is enough, as companies insist for BTechs.

The fact that TN had 80000 seats vacant at the end of Govt sponsored counseling process shows that students are up to the game and those institutions which invested miserly in educational infra would lose out. Also if college don't build up reputation for quality intake for majority of students then others with low standards would not join as well when they are paying well. That is why they are now taking students from JEE and local state Govt CETs or conduct their combined CET for management quota.

And why should one fear engineers from a cowshed. Bill gates didn't get degree either and none of the IITians are any closer to that league or got Nobel prize for India .

I know one engineer from real cowshed college back in 80s who is now quite high up in Hero Honda R&D div, a job he got after pulling some strings. He is doing far better than many engineers that I know passed out from Govt colleges. Intelligence can flourish in unlikely of circumstances and places. I have seen so many examples of breakout events in families because of these degrees that I am convinced of its utility. One example would be former maid servants daughter joining TCS now. Another one lowly chaprasi's son got out of VIT and is in L&T . Besides personal examples, I see mass upliftment from lowest strata to the Middle income level without any investment by the Govt or even providing subsidy ( if they are able to clear some merit based examinations or save enough to pay small additional management fees). Whatever value these certificates may have or not, Education and Certificate is liberating for masses in India.

One of the few good initiatives of UPA. Please read . Everyone would find resonance with some idea or the other. Lots of data and set of recommendations. It recommends setting up to 1500 universities, smaller and agile , responsive to changing needs and 50 national universities. It also talks of regional imbalance and unemployability of engineering graduates etc. Have special regards to data and draw your own conclusions , not what it says or we argue. We have own own interest to cater to , even here.

http://www.aicte-india.org/downloads/nkc.pdf

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 22 Sep 2015 19:38

How is having a degree from a fraudulent college better than having an online degree?
If one needs a standard 'degree' to apply for a job, an online one will do. Lakhs of rupees will be saved.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 19:41

prasannasimha wrote:So it is OK to run a Ponzi scheme or fraud and its all about caveat emptor. In the spirit of full disclosure does anyone here have an financial interest in these colleges ?

While it is bad in taste yet I would come forward and say yes I have. I want all the students from Bihar who are able to pay management fee stay in Bihar and get degree and jobs and spend money i n my native place instead of TN and Ktk.I want the poor people of Bihar, rickshaw pullers, maid servants, Mochis, Julahas, Badaees, rajmistris also to dream of joining engineering colleges but unable to join as they can't afford "donations" to TN engineering colleges or stay outside the state. That way , I do have financial interest for getting investment in Bihar by Bihari money and not going outside and listen to goons like RT/UT etc. Do you have any objection??

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 19:45

csaurabh wrote:How is having a degree from a fraudulent college better than having an online degree?
If one needs a standard 'degree' to apply for a job, an online one will do. Lakhs of rupees will be saved.

How is a degree from AICTE approved and a University accredited college be termed fraudulent?? Are we talking of IIPM type degree or approved degrees with minimum infrastructure prescribed by AICTE and respective university which is precisely that Cowshed. And I know one cowshed engineer who is in Ari team.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 19:49

And how is it a Ponzi scheme?? When precisely these engineers from cowsheds contribute to remittances in Billions to this country and those who remain in desh join countless organisations and doing silent IT revolution right down from ISRO to villages (courtsy NKN and OFN) and contribute better than many non Nobel winning NITians/IITians( barring few who chose to stay put).

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Sep 2015 20:06

prasannasimha wrote:So it is OK to run a Ponzi scheme or fraud and its all about caveat emptor. In the spirit of full disclosure does anyone here have an financial interest in these colleges ?

Please explain. How is this a Ponzi scheme….
No I don't have money in any financial institute, though I do know a hand full of people working in private colleges, for that matter in public too, in the same spirit can I ask you to disclose your links.

But this is classic right, run out of arguments so go after the poster... ..the old Indian politics tactic...

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 22 Sep 2015 20:20

I am still to see any convincing argument why it is o.k. to have a supply of 1 million engineers ( and that is after the proposed cut of 600,000 seats ) against a demand of about 150,000. This is still 5 to 1 over supply.

At least another 200,000 seats need to trimmed to restore some sort of sanity between the demand and supply and more importantly restore a semblance of standard.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 22 Sep 2015 20:32

Theo_Fidel wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:So it is OK to run a Ponzi scheme or fraud and its all about caveat emptor. In the spirit of full disclosure does anyone here have an financial interest in these colleges ?
Please explain. How is this a Ponzi scheme….
No I don't have money in any financial institute, though I do know a hand full of people working in private colleges, for that matter in public too, in the same spirit can I ask you to disclose your links.

But this is classic right, run out of arguments so go after the poster... ..the old Indian politics tactic...

I did nothing of the sort- I asked for a clarification if there is a conflict of interest. I made no accusations.any discussant has a conflict of interest he should so declare it- that is all.Done in so many scientific papers etc to allow interpretation of a statement/ position and yes when you ask - I have no such conflicts of interest and do not feel offended like you if asked about it- just a concerned parent who has gone through the rigmarole and also helped various parents select engineering colleges for their children during the selection process.
Yes - it becomes a con job when you run an institute charging exorbitant fees and provide inadequate facilities. I have seen umpteen such institutes and frankly at times it is shocking.They also have flashy posters and yes I have seen medical colleges also con inspectors about facilities and the same is also rampant when AICT inspections go on. Get temporary teachers for the inspection , fudge records, show nonexistent facilities and hire temporary equipment during inspection time etc etc.The list is endless. That is what I object to.I was Lucky and my child got into a reputed institute but I had to see enough of my child's classmates having to walk through this minefield.
I have no objection to anyone running an institute with the true spirit of providing education and yes they need to make a profit too but running a sham institute is also nothing but fraud. Also these Institutes have now become a method of processing Black Money and getting land sanctioned and then hive it off for other purposes.Wonder why so many of these such institutes have been started by politicians all of a sudden ? Why do you think that AICT is closing these insitutes- - some of them are just so bad that they have built their "reputation" that hardly anyone joins and the unfortunate ones who had no access to due diligence have to suffer. You can argue that due diligence needs to be done and well if AICT says that the norms are not meant after inspection what is wrong ?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Sep 2015 20:34

csaurabh wrote:If one needs a standard 'degree' to apply for a job, an online one will do. Lakhs of rupees will be saved.

This is just my opinion but 90% of engineering is teamwork. The ability for large teams of engineers 10+ to slice up a project and then put it all back together seamlessly is what make the west so productive. This is not going to come with an online degree. Need to be in a team environment, even if it is in a cowshed. Need to speak the same language and learn to work with others. Maybe some type of split is possible with team building for 2-3 years and some course work online.

Certainly there are other degrees that could be done mostly online, but not engineering….

Go read Vikram Sarabhai's biography on how the ISRO team was put together in a cowshed. Engineers, many with zero aerospace knowledge, working together to figure out the math and technology to built the bottom rungs of ISRO. In my opinion, all the degree tells you is the student has a mechanical and technical bent of mind. One of the best engineers in my office has a degree in textile design and drove trucks for 5 years. My boss got him registered as a licensed engineer through the mentorship and IDP for 12 years... ..a good engineer can come from anywhere...

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Sep 2015 20:40

prasannasimha wrote:Yes - it becomes a con job when you run an institute charging exorbitant fees and provide inadequate facilities. I have seen umpteen such institutes and frankly at times it is shocking.They also have flashy posters and yes I have seen medical colleges also con inspectors about facilities and the same is also rampant when AICT inspections go on. Get temporary teachers for the inspection , fudge records, show nonexistent facilities and hire temporary equipment during inspection time etc etc.The list is endless. That is what I object to.I was Lucky and my child got into a reputed institute but I had to see enough of my child's classmates having to walk through this minefield.

You still havn’t explained how it is a Ponzi scheme. Please do so at first opportunity.

If rules are being broken why did you not report them. You have made the market based decision right and selected form the various examples available, so what is the complaint… ..if you have evidence of illegal activity please present it, rather than making random claims. All education system have sham schools and wild claims. It is the responsibility of the parent and the adult child to do due diligence… ..you may not think a institute is great shakes but certainly someone may disagree with you and benefit from it. This is called a market place.

WRT offense, we are not writing a white paper here. This is a discussion board. It is one thing to ask for evidence for a claim , another to ask the personal details of a poster. There are several high level people on BRF, no one asks them to reveal their background...

durairaaj · Post by **durairaaj** » 22 Sep 2015 20:42

Dipanker wrote:I am still to see any convincing argument why it is o.k. to have a supply of 1 million engineers...

Let me try to address this.

The average skill level of a student increases with Engineering education than arts and literature graduate or even pure science graduate. It is better to have engineering educated accountants and salesmen because average inellectual ability to grasp and comprehend complex information goes up with the engineering education.

Though there are true high level students in the other streams(arts and science) the average is lower than the engineering educated students (despite the input level is same based on Higher secondary marks). this is because the quality of education in other streams have not improved. Those streams don't test the limits of students brain and had not evolved adequately. For example, still chemistry education deals only with pippettes and buerettes and not many colleges have updated their curriculum to address recent improvements in molecular modeling etc... Whereas the engineering education have consistently updated itself, though considerably lagging in comparison with the peers in other countries. In other streams, such as arts, literature, economics and commerce, less said the better.

In concise, I would rather have 850,000 engineering educated or to a lesser extent science grads as accountants and salesmen than arts and literature educated students.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 20:48

I was talking of Bihar and UP and NKC report does talk about regional imbalances in Higher education. I know for a fact that while there are less colleges in Bihar , those who can afford , get admitted to TN etc colleges. My point is why should this happen and why those who cant afford extra money ( other than tuition fees etc) be deprived of choice when they are more intelligent than most of those passing or not passing from Cowsheds and heck even IITs.

And limiting number does not imply automatic improved quality. I mean even NITs and IITs don't gigure anywhere near world's top 50. Should not they be closed. We can get gora engineers to do quality work. I think vested interests want to limit job pool to existing colleges and hence this drama by AICTE.

For quality improvement a conscious effort has to be made, better enforcement, ratings etc. NKC has given pointers. private colleges are not funded by Govt but paid for by students unlike IITs and NITs and govt collges so let them find their own equilibrium. They may morph into something else if they can't find students to be admitted. What Govt is losing in that case. On the other hand you get a person with somewhat better ability than others to cope in life and not be a burden on exchequers. Anyway when supply increases clamour for development would also increase.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 20:52

prasannasimha wrote: the same is also rampant when AICT inspections go on. Get temporary teachers for the inspection , fudge records, show nonexistent facilities and hire temporary equipment during inspection time etc etc.The list is endless. That is what I object to. ..........You can argue that due diligence needs to be done and well if AICT says that the norms are not meant after inspection what is wrong ?

Well it is the only argument that you have put forward then I am sure answer is not in closing down but in revamping AICTE inspections and reducing corruption by them. Who has asked AICTE to grant approvals if norms are not met in the first place? Problem of quality is to be answered differently.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Sep 2015 21:09

Chanakya saar,

I get the feeling part of the problem is many folks are looking at it from a parents point of view rather than societies point of view. Parent want a sure thing. College, nice job, nice car, nice wife, nice kids, etc. Straight line, no deviations….

Societies point of view is open competition benefits us and everyone should have an opportunity to play the game. Even if they came from cowshed while your kid came from IIT. Good enough works for companies, rather than perfect....

In the real world it does not matter where you came from. Reality is an unforgiving mofo… …if someone can do your job cheaper and better, no matter they came from cowshed, you bet you are going to lose your job. ..in reality all that matters is drive, ambition, ability to work hard and willingness to learn. Your degree is just the start of the competition and your lifelong learning… This is message that people don’t want to hear…

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 22 Sep 2015 21:40

chaanakya wrote:
prasannasimha wrote: the same is also rampant when AICT inspections go on. Get temporary teachers for the inspection , fudge records, show nonexistent facilities and hire temporary equipment during inspection time etc etc.The list is endless. That is what I object to. ..........You can argue that due diligence needs to be done and well if AICT says that the norms are not meant after inspection what is wrong ?
Well it is the only argument that you have put forward then I am sure answer is not in closing down but in revamping AICTE inspections and reducing corruption by them. Who has asked AICTE to grant approvals if norms are not met in the first place? Problem of quality is to be answered differently.

Go to the latest and greatest IIMs or IITs, every IIM including the ones this year, started off in buildings which will shame a half decent school. I have studied in college which opened the previous year.

Those institutes have also been given 5 years by the AICTE for a reason and they cannot improve if students do not go to them. THis is where market forces come. Have you seen the requirements of AICTE?? There is a reason why even govt. institutes frees itself from it as soon as it can.

https://www.iiitd.ac.in/sites/default/f ... ne2012.pdf
The total PHDs for 2011 in computer science in India was 137 from decent institutions. Lets double that for the total number of PHDs, say around 300.
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... india-phds
This one says we produced 60 in 2006. So the number I am taking will not be off by much.
http://www.knmt.org.in/vacancy/FACULTY- ... 0AICTE.pdf

BE./B.Tech.
Faculty required 1:15 (Teacher: student ratio)
Cadre ratio
1:2:6 (Professor: Associate Professor : Assistant Professor)

Assosciate and professors must have phds. i.e. a phd every 45 students. So a maximum of 300*45 =13500 computer science students in whole of India, if each and every one of the phds becomes a professor.

The number of computer science btech seeking students in India will at the minimum 1 lakh (more than 15 lakh engineering students graduating every year, I would say around 5 lakh would be CS, but lets take the barest minimum).

If I still have to go on why the babudom of AICTE is corruption prone, look at their rules and reality. It is impossible to follow the rules - as simple as that.

The ratio of non - teaching (inclusive of admin istrative, ministerial, technical and other unskilled and semiskilled staff) to teaching staff should not exceed 3:1

They have a limit on the number of peons as well

http://www.aicte-india.org/downloads/Gr ... #toolbar=0
Some data

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 22 Sep 2015 22:05

Are these all for-profit colleges? If so all bets are off just as with University of Phoenix in the US. There are no well known for-profit universities in the US. Public are public and by definition non-profit (they are state owned) and private are all non-profit. I am not saying making money is a sin or anything like that but fleecing hapless students and their parents certainly is. Bottom line: One can buy an education (degree) but none can buy a job where one has to perform. Future India is going to be more and more capitalist and the large loss making PSUs is a thing of the past. Why that is important? It was possible to buy a job or rather get a job for one's progeny as a quid pro quo. It would be easy to have ridden the loss making gravy train.

k-12, k-12, k-12 -- that is where India needs to focus and strengthen it rather than use the first two years of engg. as preparation for real engineering. Another way is to make the BE 6 year long and use first two years to teach the kids what they should have learnt in 10-12 grades.

One of the worst things that had happened to India is the junior college (sorry for the strong words) BS. In the olden days when there were not too many people for LDC/UDC positions, an FA (or Matrilcate) would have done the trick. Most of those jobs have disappeared what with MIS/DP becoming main stream.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 22 Sep 2015 22:06

Virupaksha: ~300 number I got from sources who are in the know. You are right in the ballpark.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 22 Sep 2015 22:12

You still havn’t explained how it is a Ponzi scheme. Please do so at first opportunity.

If rules are being broken why did you not report them. You have made the market based decision right and selected form the various examples available, so what is the complaint… ..if you have evidence of illegal activity please present it, rather than making random claims. All education system have sham schools and wild claims. It is the responsibility of the parent and the adult child to do due diligence… ..you may not think a institute is great shakes but certainly someone may disagree with you and benefit from it. This is called a market place.

WRT offense, we are not writing a white paper here. This is a discussion board. It is one thing to ask for evidence for a claim , another to ask the personal details of a poster. There are several high level people on BRF, no one asks them to reveal their background...

Yes and how do you know that we haven't complained ? In fact it is due to a lot of complaints from Parents that AICT is acting now.

No one is asking your background or personal details - nor do we care- what we ask is when you make a statement - is there a possible conflict of interest- a simple yes or no is all that is being asked.If there is a conflict of interest- whatever is being discussed will be viewed in that light.

I have explained already how this fraudulent scheme works at multiple levels but you chose not to see it. Go outside these colleges during selection time and see how their touts work, how seats are promised etc etc. People have been liberally conned by many of these colleges which are facing closure and you say that is how market forces work and yes market forces are kicking such fraudulent colleges out. Do not think that AICT is acting in isolation- Parents have complained against such colleges and at last action is being taken. No one is asking and no one is closing or reducing seats of these colleges based on whims and fancies- the colleges themselves are unable to run the same and when they have been found to be unable to run nor attract students they have been asked to close such courses rather than misrepresent their abilities and thus entrap some innocent or gullible students . The complaints have become so high in the last two years that finally it is acting albeit slowly.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 22:33

Theo_Fidel wrote:Chanakya saar,

I get the feeling part of the problem is many folks are looking at it from a parents point of view rather than societies point of view. Parent want a sure thing. College, nice job, nice car, nice wife, nice kids, etc. Straight line, no deviations….

Societies point of view is open competition benefits us and everyone should have an opportunity to play the game. Even if they came from cowshed while your kid came from IIT. Good enough works for companies, rather than perfect....

In the real world it does not matter where you came from. Reality is an unforgiving mofo… …if someone can do your job cheaper and better, no matter they came from cowshed, you bet you are going to lose your job. ..in reality all that matters is drive, ambition, ability to work hard and willingness to learn. Your degree is just the start of the competition and your lifelong learning… This is message that people don’t want to hear…

Please don't use "saar" Theo garu.

yes, at one level it is parent's point of view which generates demand as they want a secure future for their children. But I am also thinking of vast majority of underclass who would also like to get education but for various reasons. If they move up in the chain India will move up. Believe me, I have seen the change when they join professional courses, not only medical and engineering but Nursing, pharmacy etc.

Society wants open competition but not for merit purpose alone. In India competition is more like rejecting equally meritorious students from lucky few. Those who need reservation also compete within their own sphere with relaxed standards. But I agree the society view point is and should be that everybody gets equal shot at what they want to study.

And of course degree is just the start. We have umpteen examples to show that.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 22:38

Virupaksha wrote:

Go to the latest and greatest IIMs or IITs, every IIM including the ones this year, started off in buildings which will shame a half decent school. I have studied in college which opened the previous year.

Those institutes have also been given 5 years by the AICTE for a reason and they cannot improve if students do not go to them. THis is where market forces come. Have you seen the requirements of AICTE?? There is a reason why even govt. institutes frees itself from it as soon as it can.

https://www.iiitd.ac.in/sites/default/f ... ne2012.pdf
The total PHDs for 2011 in computer science in India was 137 from decent institutions. Lets double that for the total number of PHDs, say around 300.
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... india-phds
This one says we produced 60 in 2006. So the number I am taking will not be off by much.
http://www.knmt.org.in/vacancy/FACULTY- ... 0AICTE.pdf

BE./B.Tech.
Faculty required 1:15 (Teacher: student ratio)
Cadre ratio
1:2:6 (Professor: Associate Professor : Assistant Professor)
Assosciate and professors must have phds. i.e. a phd every 45 students. So a maximum of 300*45 =13500 computer science students in whole of India, if each and every one of the phds becomes a professor.

The number of computer science btech seeking students in India will at the minimum 1 lakh (more than 15 lakh engineering students graduating every year, I would say around 5 lakh would be CS, but lets take the barest minimum).

If I still have to go on why the babudom of AICTE is corruption prone, look at their rules and reality. It is impossible to follow the rules - as simple as that.

The ratio of non - teaching (inclusive of admin istrative, ministerial, technical and other unskilled and semiskilled staff) to teaching staff should not exceed 3:1
They have a limit on the number of peons as well

http://www.aicte-india.org/downloads/Gr ... #toolbar=0
Some data

You will not be off the mark and right in your comments. I know AICTE guidelines verbatim. And I also know why they are crooks of first order. This idea is derived by them to create a market for money making which was drying up. This is a serious accusation to make but sadly it is true.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Sep 2015 22:52

So again how is this a Ponzi scheme. Please take the time to explain, with some data please. It is hard to take all your comments seriously without you taking your own comments seriously.
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prasannasimha wrote:I have explained already how this fraudulent scheme works at multiple levels but you chose not to see it.

I see more random aspersions being cast without any data being backed up. Not saying all this stuff does not happen but please back it up or we just having tea kaddai chit chat...

Well if you had said that you were trying to avoid conflict of interest that is one thing. But this is what you said. You are asking for full disclosure not eliminate conflict of interest. Please be clearer in future or chose your words carefully...

prasannasimha wrote:In the spirit of full disclosure does anyone here have an financial interest in these colleges ?

In fact I would be very interested in comments that an owner of such institutes had to make. There was one a few months back who came and decried the RTE for religious reasons. He did not get much traction and moved on....

Btw it is right there in the comments from AICTE on why they are acting. They are acting on the basis of complaints from companies, not from parents. The colleges are already asking to shut down some courses as they have few students. This is exactly how market forces should act. Of course the AICTE then exceeded its brief by getting into silly comments about how many engineers we need and raising quality of students, all of which it is not competent to pronounce on. This is what happens to babu-dumb in India.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/education/ ... 79155.html

In a bid to tackle the problem of degrading education quality for aspiring engineers All India Council for Technical Education (AICTE) has decided to cut its undergraduate seats by 40 percent.
The council will also shut down some schools and decrease the number of admissions over the next few years.AICTE is the statutory body and national level council for technical education in India under Department of Higher Education, Ministry of Human Resource Development. According to the reports, AICTE is likely to bring down the number of of engineering students from 16.6 lakh to 10 lakh- 11 lakh. In the year 2015, the council has shut down 556 courses/departments of engineering colleges.
The problem was spotted when companies recruiting from various engineering colleges started complaining about the quality of students. Except for few top colleges like IITs and BITS-Pilani, other students from other colleges suffered due to lack of poor infrastructure and faculty. The poor quality of education at these institutes create many unemployable graduates every year.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 22:57

Genesis of profiteering in education is to be found in plethora of supreme court judgement on private colleges. It would require a treatise level of writing. Suffice to say that in Final judgement , which overturned the interim order in Unnikrishanan case was like this.

1. Private colleges have their right to admit students and charge fees.
2. There will be a committee, fee committee headed by retired Justice of HC in respective states, to decide fees
3. All students are to be admitted on merit based on competitive exams/+2 marks in order of merit and availability of seats+choice. Private colleges are free to conduct their own exams or join a common exam by private college association or govt exam. Choice is their's
4.Govt can not send their students to private colleges. there would be no 50% quota.
5. All colleges have to follow norms set by respective bodies, University
6. Minority institutions are immune from regulatory interference in matters of admission policies as may be decided by each state.

Once NOC is issued by State Govt, their job is done. Then AICTE takes over. Once AICTE is done University takes over. To bypass this issue they applied for "Deemed to be University" under Section 3 of UGC Act. Then they can pay off UGC and become self sufficient and autonomous. If we read UGC Section 3 reg this we would know that this has restricted applicability and no substitute for university set up by an ACT. But powers that be, mostly in UPA, decided to give "free" for all deemed to be University status. You know what has happened.
Now all this has led to the chaos and talk about quality. Now how do we depend on the same regulatory agencies who are responsible for the mess in the first place. NKC recommended setting up of New Bodies and abolish the existing one. Govt played with MCI but failed. AICTE also faced heat for some time but survived.

That is why "quality" issue is different from "numbers" issue. In a country of 125 cr we need more development and more engineers and hence more colleges. For past 10 years we have not done so well hence we talk of surplus.

The fate and current status of polytechnic and ITIs are also pathetic due to neglect. It is nobody's case they they should not be revived. Many people would get diverted to from 10th level to these courses and then we have to provide jobs as they can not survive otherwise coming from poor strata of society. Many of the dip holders go on to become engineers( better one at that) through lateral entry programme. Perhaps we can think of increasing the intake in lateral entry to 50% and make direct Btech a five or six year course(v2van suggestion) to even out.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 22 Sep 2015 23:13

Theo fidel- it seems when I say something - it is random aspersions whereas when you say something - it is fact.I have given enough examples and you choose not to see it. When I give examples you say there are no proof and I don't think you understand what is meant by in the spirit of full disclosure - what was asked to be disclosed was if they (anyone discussing it) have financial interests. That means a Yes or No - no one is asking an IT return !!
I think that this is a useless conversation anyway and yes I believe that those colleges which are getting defunct are paying the price for their unbridled greed- you can only fool all the people for some time but not all the people all the time.
As a simple example of how these things run(since you wanted "proof" I will give an example - see the MCI documents of Vinayaka Mission Medical College and what happened there.That is how it runs in medical colleges and engineering colleges.If that is not duping then I don't think you will find anything fraudulent and it is not even worth prolonging this discussion.