West Asia News and Discussions

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ramana
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Lalmohan, Was thinking about KSA largesse of $37B. Heck with oil price going up so much, they can give even more as West is paying at the gas pump!

However it wont solve the problem. When the people are asking for political reforms giving them money wont do. Its like "Let them eat cake!" So in long run KSA needs to reform.

BTW its fitting the Quigley 7 step cycle of evolution of civilizations. They need to change or go away.

And Libya is at the stage of the periphery conquering the center! Thats the significance of Bengazhi.

Quigley's model civilization is subject to 7 distinct stages:

Mixture
Gestation
Expansion
Age of Conflict
Universal Empire
Decay
Invasion
Not all go thru all the phases and some cycle back and forth (dither)between the phases.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

yes, the KSA largesse is indeed cake - and unlike marie antoinette, there is no misquoting
but KSA is too rigidly structured with ultra conservatives for any gradual/moderate change to occur
there is no happy ending for KSA either... there is no natural economic activity for them to engage in which will provide employment or services to the population

expect to see large scale displacement of migrant labour... India had better be prepared to defend its citizens in the Gulf states... the scenarios get more and more alarming

saud took power in a coup too once upon a time... will be interesting to see how the national guards and army in KSA start aligning - they have been backing different horses over the past few years
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by SwamyG »

Libya has 6 million people, and almost 2 million live in Tripoli. No doubt in West Asia, all it takes is to capture couple of cities, the entire country collapses and comes under a tyrant or foreign power. Methinks, India should send some few millions to each of these countries as a goodwill gesture.

After Libya, is it Bahrain? I doubt SA would allow Bahrain to go down. It is too close for its own comfort. Maybe another one of the African Arab countries.

BTW, why is he bring AQ into picture here? Trying to scare the Western audience? He talks about hallucinogens mixed in milk, like Nescafe :-) Is that good or bad advertisement for Nescafe?
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Prem »

SwamiG,
:D
Too bad , Indians dont have imperialistic streak and unfortunately its a real weakness otherwise 200 Million Indians will be rulling whole "West Asia".
Last edited by Prem on 25 Feb 2011 00:56, edited 1 time in total.
SwamyG
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by SwamyG »

Prem wrote:SwamiG,
:D
Too bad , Indians dont have imprealistic streak and unfortunately its a real weakness otherwise 200 Million Indians will be rulling whole "West Asia".
Something tells me, that is not really a typo :mrgreen:
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Muppalla »

A lot of links and a perspective.

Middle East Chaos: What To Learn And What To Expect - Submitted by Giordano Bruno of Neithercorp Press
There are many different kinds of revolution; some more effective than others. Telling the difference between a successful revolution and a failed revolution can be tricky. Often, on the surface, they look exactly the same. The secret is to set aside what we would “like” to see, and be brutally honest about what was actually accomplished in the course of the dissenting action. Has power been fully rescinded by the offending government or regime to the people, or, to yet another corrupt bureaucracy with a slightly different face? Have the puppet strings of corporate globalists been severed from your country, or do they remain strong as ever? Has ANY corrupt official actually been punished for the crimes that led to the insurgency in the first place, or, did they fly off scot-free to their million dollar villas in Ecuador, drinking mojitos in wicker recliners and watching the disaster they created unfold on CNN? Who ultimately benefited from the event?

Today, the entire Middle East is on the verge of complete destabilization and possibly civil war. Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Bahrain, Yemen, and other nations are experiencing a shockwave of unrest not seen since the 1970’s. Western media sources are calling it a “people’s revolt”, one which the Obama administration is heartily embracing like an old relative. But are we witnessing the democratization of the cradle of civilization, or something else entirely? How will we be affected by this tide of confusion? Instead of falling into panic and fear over the growing chaos, what can discerning Americans learn from a social implosion on the other side of the world that will help us to survive a similar occurrence here? Let’s examine some of the distinct moments that have characterized the Middle East debacle, the underlying and corrupt influences that surround them, as well as certain historical facts of the region that globalist engineers would rather we forget…

Molding The Arab World

Are globalist interests involved in the breakdown of the Middle East? Most certainly. However, this much widespread resentment and pent-up collective rage is not something that can be easily fabricated. It is far more likely that anger over the feudal governing tactics of dictators in the Arab world (many of which were installed or supported by U.S. and European interests) is very real, and has been building for quite some time. So then, why are Western governments applauding the overthrow of despots they themselves placed in power?

The Mubarak regime was the second largest recipient of U.S. financial and military aid in the world. One third of ALL publicly reported U.S. foreign aid goes to Egypt and Israel:

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politic ... gn-aid.htm

Without this vast military aid from the U.S., Mubarak would not have been able to maintain his 30 year reign. This is a cold hard fact. So then, why go against a leader you already have firmly in your grasp?

When the Shah of Iran (a violent madman we anointed) was overthrown by popular revolt in 1979, the U.S. government responded with vitriol and saber rattling. When Hosni Mubarak (a violent madman we anointed) was overthrown this past month, the U.S. government responded with cheers and warm regards. What was the difference between the revolution in Iran, and the revolutions all over the Middle East today? Insurance…

Like most puppet leaders and figureheads, Mubarak was an errand boy, a conduit for implementing globalist policies in Egypt. His relinquishment of power was in reality nothing of the kind, because the power was never his to give back. It is important to take note that Mubarak’s cabinet and most of the existing government and military structure remains firmly entrenched:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/internation ... s-1.345069

Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, who leads the ruling military council and has been defense minister for about 20 years, took “temporary” control of Egypt after Mubarak ceded authority. Tantawi retains very strong ties to Washington D.C. and an unerring loyalty to Mubarak’s policies, which is perhaps why Barack Obama seemed so jubilant about Mubarak’s departure. In the recent and controversial Wikileaks release of private diplomatic cables, Tantawi is famously referred to as “Mubarak’s Poodle”:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/ ... 2166.shtml

The key here is that globalist circles support the change in Egypt exactly because nothing will change for the citizenry. The Egyptian people will not gain true influence in the politics of their own country, and they may have even less influence over their own lives if a military infrastructure remains embedded within their government. Their entire rebellion was diluted and redirected, because they naively focused on Mubarak as the source of all their ills, instead of the corrupt system he was a mere front-man for.

What about Libya? Muammar Gaddafi, the crazy bag lady of third world dictators, was the darling of the UN in 2009 when he was nominated the head of the African Union. He was just as much a monster then as he is today, and as far as I know his human rights record has remained dismal, but then again, he was helping the globalists by paying the AU dues of numerous countries with Libyan oil money and luring them towards centralization:

http://www.saiia.org.za/diplomatic-pouc ... rence.html

Apparently, Gaddafi has outlived his usefulness as international bodies now fully support the rebellion in Libya.

Remember Tunisia? That fight for freedom that the mainstream media essentially ignored until it was almost over and the two decade rule of Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali (another despot with a history of human rights violations who was also installed with the help of Western interests, primarily Italy) was finally overthrown? Well, now globalist proponents suddenly “love” Tunisia and are promoting it as a “model revolution”. Why? Maybe because the dastardly duo of McCain and Lieberman are in town to offer the new Tunisian government “training from the U.S. to help Tunisia’s military provide security”:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/ ... YE20110221

Yikes. These are the same guys who drafted the ‘Enemy Belligerents Act’ which would allow the U.S. government to treat any American citizen as an “enemy combatant”, removing Habeas Corpus and all Constitutional rights to a fair trial. I guess the lesson to Americans and most importantly the Liberty Movement is that if they can’t beat you, they’ll try to join you, and then co-opt you. My hope is that the Tunisians will turn down the Trojan Horse offerings of sewer rats like McCain and Lieberman, but if they do, I imagine the globalists will not be quite so friendly anymore.

What is happening in the Middle East is a perfect example of the manipulation of existing dissent towards establishment ends. The surface trigger for these events is obviously the doubling of food prices across the world in the past two years (you can thank the orchestrated devaluation of western currencies for a large part of this). People have a bad tendency to weather all kinds of atrocities as long as they are fed, but once certain necessities are taken from the masses, they WILL act, usually in a violent and unfocused manner. These revolutions are, for the most part, legitimate when they begin, but are co-opted as they progress, chiefly because the cultures involved do not understand where the real threat is coming from. Is centralization of the Middle East through catastrophe the goal? Perhaps, though, when all is said and done, I think the upheaval in the Middle East is much more about the U.S., than the Muslim world…

Déjà Vu All Over Again…

For those who really want a comprehensive sense of what is happening in the Middle East and why, I suggest a look into the last major Egyptian revolution of 1952. At that time, Britain was still the preeminent western power in the Arab world, and its control of the oil supply was absolute, much like the stranglehold the U.S. has enjoyed for many decades. Oil was pegged to the British sterling and any trade in crude required a conversion to the British currency. In fact, it was often said that the British Empire’s power after World War II was entirely dependent on its reserve currency status in oil markets. Any of this beginning to sound familiar?

In 1952, a revolution against the Egyptian puppet monarchy and its British overseers burst seemingly from nowhere, led by a group called the “Free Officers Movement”. In reality, the insurrection, fed by years of corrupt Aristocratic rule, was initiated and in some cases funded by both U.S. and Soviet agencies in tandem! In 1951-1952, nationalist police officers backed by the U.S. and Russia began supporting fedayeen terrorist groups using false flag attacks to weaken the region (is this sounding even more familiar?). Interestingly, this era was the birth of the so called “Muslim Brotherhood”, a group which has suddenly resurfaced in media discussion today.

Riots spread through Cairo, King Farouk was overthrown, the British were eventually run out, and their control of the Suez Canal was lost. But the story doesn’t end there…

The British and the French wanted the Suez back (at least that’s what they claimed), for control of the Suez meant control of Middle East oil markets. A plan was initiated by the two European powers to take back the canal using an Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip as a spring board. This time, Israeli agents were used by the British to conduct false flag attacks, which were presented as a pretext for Israel to move against Egypt. The British and French followed by landing troops near Cyprus and Algeria.

The plan would have worked, except for one thing, the British were financially weak after two world wars and were completely dependent on American investment in their treasury debt. In response to the British action, the U.S. along with the UN threatened to halt investment in British debt and to stop price support of the Pound Sterling. This led to the eventual fall of the pound as the world reserve currency, and the rise of the dollar.

Official history portrays this move by the U.S., Russia, and the UN, as an attempt to undermine the long reach of the English. It is rather convenient however that the pound was dethroned just as plans for the European Union were beginning to be implemented in the early 1950’s. It seems to me that the British elites were fully aware that their futile attempts to hold onto the Middle East would result in the fall of the Pound; it was simply the British people’s turn to be taken down a few notches, and centralized. The similarities between the British Empire’s decline over Middle East oil in the 1950’s and our decline over Middle East oil today, are startling.

If history was to repeat itself, I would guess that the U.S. will soon be embroiled in political or even military operations to control the Suez, and retain its dollar peg to oil, which will illicit a negative response by international investment, causing central banks to dump their U.S. treasury investments and the dollar as a reserve currency.

Think of it as a grand theater meant to amuse only global bankers…

Energy Crisis To Strike The U.S. And Protect Globalists

An unstable Middle East benefits very few people, and that, I suppose, is the point. As we have covered here in a multitude of articles, the U.S. is on the verge of engineered economic collapse, driven mainly by the steady and purposeful devaluation of the dollar and our quickly expanding national debt. If you are a corporate central banking group seeking the death of the greenback as the world reserve currency, you face the very serious problem of avoiding immediate blame or retribution for your actions. What better way to escape the torches and pitchforks of the furious populace than to find a scapegoat, or a distraction even more terrifying than poverty?

Middle East turbulence provides the perfect smokescreen for the inflationary destruction of the dollar.

First and foremost, it hides the already skyrocketing price of energy, which was inevitable due to our devaluing currency (oil is traded primarily in dollars), but can now be blamed entirely on “Middle Eastern instability”. Already, the cost of crude has spiked to $100 a barrel, with no sign of relenting. Certainly, many Americans will now blame Egypt or Libya for their empty wallets, instead of global banks.

To add to the confusion, various agencies are feeding the MSM with a rainbow of mixed messages, which leave Americans vulnerable to uncertainty, making them far more malleable. For instance, the IMF has recently stated that the world can easily withstand $100 oil (a lie), while the International Energy Agency has stated that $100 oil would be “very very bad”, leading to a complete derailment of the global economy (which was going to occur anyway):

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-2 ... -says.html

http://www.cnbc.com//id/41714336

Social and economic disaster ANYWHERE in the world today will invariably cut the thin threads of psychological faith in our so called recovery. The system was a sham to begin with, and the quantitative easing methods of the Federal Reserve were never intended to actually “save” our financial house from collapsing, just prolong the event until they were ready to sweep away the ailing remains and offer us an IMF controlled replacement. It is designed to fail, and fail spectacularly. However, these facts will sink into the fog of history if Americans are suckered into fixating on a single area of the planet as the sole source of economic catastrophe.

Finally, if the tension spreads to other nations such as Saudi Arabia and triggers violent in-fighting, or Israel is tapped as an asset to instigate wider conflict, we could be looking at all out war on an incredible scale. This would be the distraction to top all distractions.

Is American Upheaval Next?

If crude oil continues to climb above $100 for more than a couple months, the negative effects will be undeniable. If you thought we had inflation before, just wait until gas hits $5 to $6 a gallon, and shipping costs for goods explode. This doesn’t even take into account the very real possibility that once the Middle East is fully destabilized, and certain political influences are dissolved, OPEC will completely de-peg oil from the dollar. From there, the sky is the limit on gasoline values. Already, Mohamed El-Erian, chief executive officer at Pacific Investment Management Co. (PIMCO) is calling for a “stagflationary” market reaction to the turmoil in Libya:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-1 ... -says.html

What will be the U.S. government response to a crashing currency and climbing costs? Austerity! Although, they will probably use different terminology to describe it. The onset of cost cutting measures is becoming more visible, especially within the states, where municipal bond investment has run screaming off a cliff. Large scale protests are erupting in Wisconsin and Ohio due to state cuts designed to help them stay financially afloat:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/ ... SR20110222

The debate here becomes two sided; do state workers deserve to have their wages or benefits cut because state governments were fiscally irresponsible? Should states continue to run up incredible deficits just to appease state workers (who many consider overpaid) in the short term? They are both meaningful positions that need to be considered, however, these two sides miss the full picture.

The fact is, state governments are beyond broke, and eventually, they will have to nix spending and entitlement programs regardless of how anyone is affected, especially in the face of unchecked inflation. State employees and all people dependent on welfare are not necessarily the culprits behind financial clear-cutting either. The argument cannot be allowed to devolve into a mindless cage match over who deserves the money, because, first, there is no money, and second, this distracts from the original cause of the distress; the corporate banking elites who instigated the disaster in the first place. Already, I can see a certain subsection of the populace lashing out wildly at figureheads and opposition parties, just like in Egypt, instead of the corrupt system and the banking moguls who built it.

If an Egyptian or Libyan style revolt, driven by blind mob mentality, takes place in the U.S., we can expect several things to occur. Normal means of communication will be disrupted; both Egypt and Libya responded to protests by shutting down all internet and cell phone traffic. Martial Law will be enacted, and Constitutional rights suspended; continuity of government programs are already in place to legally bind states into bowing to DHS and FEMA authority in the event of any “national disaster”, including a dissenting citizenry. Immediate bank closures will follow, just as occurred in Egypt, causing a lack of liquidity in local markets and panic among those who were financially unprepared. Violence will unavoidably result, giving the Department of Homeland Security the perfect excuse to implement even more controls, all for our own “safety” of course.

Some may welcome such bedlam as a sign of change. I don’t see it that way. Revolution without direction, without a plan, and without a clear understanding of the source of the problem, is meaningless. We can allow ourselves to be herded by our own rage into even more pronounced tyranny, or we can stay focused, collected, and act with purpose by organizing our communities with the objective of self sufficiency and self protection. We can work with state legislators to bring support to Tenth Amendment issues, giving them the strength to withstand an economic collapse and the ability to turn down DHS or FEMA’s “help” when the time comes. We can organize intelligently, without centralized control, or we can hand over our destinies to yet another elite group of unaccountable autocrats. As impossible as it might seem, the choice really is up to us. How we act and react in the coming months will mean the difference between a free and prosperous America, or a scorch mark in the annals of history.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shravan »

SwamyG wrote: BTW, why is he bring AQ into picture here?
Even Iraqi PM said the same thing about AQ today.

Iraqi PM to country: Stay away from Friday protest

By HAMID AHMED, Associated Press – 1 hr 49 mins ago

BAGHDAD – Iraq's prime minister warned his people to boycott a planned anti-government protest scheduled for Friday, saying it was being organized by supporters of Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida.
ramana
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

To scare off the Western supporters of the protests.

Muppala please post in the Tech forum Prespectives thread also for the Econ guys to comment.
BTW, shaymd he is recounting things from WWII as I asked you to.!
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

symontk wrote:IMO, someone is creating lot of Pakistan's across Arab world which will be neither opposing US but also not supporting US. They will behave as current pakistan do. They are throwing away dictators and are veering towards democracy with military help

But why is the question? Or was it the part Arabs understood in the Obama's speech at Cairo?

Anyway Israel is going to have funtime
uncle doesn't understand the Arab world. They think they do and have morons passing gas as experts.
Only Aunty does. Three decades from now there will be books written about aunty saved the West.

What we are seeing is a dismantling of the order setup in West Asia and North Africa after 1965(AU, OIC, OPEC) and in some cases after WWI (KSA).

These structures have served their purpose and need to go. Its like the West is allowing its dictators to fail just as Gorby allowed the Warsaw pact countries to have freedom ~ 20 years ago.

The Saud family better seek relocation to India just as all those Arab sheiks used to seek shelter in the West Coast of India to escape piracy charges at dawn of colonial era.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

Lalmohan wrote:yes, the KSA largesse is indeed cake - and unlike marie antoinette, there is no misquoting
but KSA is too rigidly structured with ultra conservatives for any gradual/moderate change to occur
there is no happy ending for KSA either... there is no natural economic activity for them to engage in which will provide employment or services to the population

expect to see large scale displacement of migrant labour... India had better be prepared to defend its citizens in the Gulf states... the scenarios get more and more alarming

saud took power in a coup too once upon a time... will be interesting to see how the national guards and army in KSA start aligning - they have been backing different horses over the past few years
Boss, you aint done your research. Look into who controls National Guard and the various units. They broke it up under allegience.
King Abdullah is no ultra conservative and he is spear heading the modernisation of saudi society/clergy etc. But the worry is will these reforms be changed when Nayef comes to power. Most likely, but King A is working on that too. Needs a long post. Do some more research on the subject.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Prem »

Rumor is out there about Qadafi got his 72 by the way of bullet.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by SwamyG »

^^^
Some sources say he is ready to flee. http://blogs.barrons.com/stockstowatcht ... od=BOLBlog
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

So they denied US landing rights, eh?

Time to send in that old rustbucket, INS Trenton er I mean USS Jalashwa.... whatever. might save a few american asses from being dragged behind Toyota trucks.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

The rumor was from William Hague's speech suggesting that. However there are many versions of the rumor. Some suggest he will do a Hitler.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by SwamyG »

AKalam wrote:
ramana wrote: Might be a good idea to offer to evacuate all SAARC citizens.
Thanks ramana ji, for your concerns for fellow subcontinentals. Hopefully all stranded people will be able to safely get out.
Sunday Rescue

Srilankans are gonna come on the Indian ship.
About 1,200 Sri Lankans are estimated to be working in Libya. The mammoth evacuation exercise will be reminiscent of India’s successful operations of rescuing not only its own nationals but also of its South Asian neighbours such as Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, from Lebanon in 2006 after the Israel-Hezbollah war broke out. The Indian Navy was then in the lead of ‘Operation Sukoo’ to evacuate people from Lebanon.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

^^ 50,000 Bangladeshi's present too. Thats more than Chinese nationnals and egyptians in Libya
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Mahendra »

Didn't that nutter Gaddafi make a statement that Bangladesh should merge with India?
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

There is talk of using British Special Forces to get people out of the desert camps. RAF Hercules picked up people from Tripoli and brought them to malta. I suggested the same for Indian evacuation, but India has opted for the egyptian route which is longer. Not sure why.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by SwamyG »

shyamd wrote:^^ 50,000 Bangladeshi's present too. Thats more than Chinese nationnals and egyptians in Libya
According to Daily Times, it is 60,000 BDs, 30,000 Filipinos, 23,000 Thais, 18,000 Indians, 10,000 Vietnamese - all contract workers. In addition there are about 30,000 Chinese.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

SwamyG, Can you stop using BDs for Bangladesis? Thanks, ramana
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by SwamyG »

Why ?
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by AKalam »

Gaddafi, pan-African politics and glimpse of Arabized Maghreb vs. Sub Saharan Black Africa:

http://www.modernghana.com/news/317875/ ... sylum.html
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by saip »

Whats up with the Swiss? Heard they are freezing the assets of Gaddaffi family and they did freeze the assets of Mubarak. So obviously they know where all this wealth is hidden. But when it comes to black money stashed by the Indians they quote the law. Is it because of the weak Indian govt or the Indian Govt really is not pressing hard enough for what ever reason?
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Airavat »

Algeria lifts 19-year Old Emergency Law:

The move follows widespread protests against the Abdelaziz Bouteflika-led government which has been in power for several years now. The African nation like its neighbors, Tunisia, Egypt and Libya has recently witnessed several protests demanding greater political freedom. In particular, the rising food prices was seen as the leading cause for the widespread disenchantment of the Algerian public.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Purush »

Image
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Cairo It Ain't: Pro-democracy protesters have started something big in Yemen. But are they going to like how it ends?

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... ro_it_aint
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Two reasons why oil prices are going through the roof

http://oilandglory.foreignpolicy.com/po ... h_the_roof
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Reflections on the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt

By Rashid Khalidi (Foreign Policy Magazine)

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/ ... _and_egypt

This is above all a moment of new possibilities in the Arab world, and indeed in the entire Middle East. We have not witnessed such a turning point for a very long time. Suddenly, once insuperable obstacles seem surmountable. Despotic regimes that have been entrenched across the Arab world for two full generations are suddenly vulnerable.

...

We are privileged to be experiencing what may well be a world historical moment, when what once seemed to be fixed verities vanish and new potentials and forces emerge.

...


The most difficult tasks are yet to come. It was not easy to overthrow an out-of-touch tyrant and his greedy family, whether in Tunis or Cairo, and it is proving very hard in Tripoli. Building a working democratic system will be much harder. It will be harder still to ensure that a democratic system, if one can be established, is not dominated by the plutocrats who abound in the Arab world and by entrenched, powerful interests like the military. Finally, it will be a daunting task for any new popular democratic regime to achieve the social justice and the rapid economic growth that will be necessary to provide good jobs, decent housing, quality education, much-needed infrastructure, and equal opportunity. These are the very things that the old regimes failed to provide and whose absence triggered the youth revolution now sweeping the region. Failure at any of these daunting tasks could well lead to an attempted comeback for the forces of reaction and repression.

...



This last point raises embarrassing questions. Why were American tear gas canisters used copiously against peaceful protesters in Tunis and Cairo, as they have been systematically used for years against Palestinians and a few Israeli and foreign activists demonstrating at villages like Bil'in in the occupied West Bank? Why were the goons and thugs of Ben ‘Ali and Mubarak on such good terms with the intelligence services of the United States, France and other European countries? Why was support for "stability" (which really meant support for repression, corruption, the frustration of popular demands, and the subversion of democracy) in practice the main, and indeed the only, policy of the United States and the European Union in most parts of the Arab world?

...



It is impossible to say whether this spirit of liberation can be sustained, whether other Arab revolutions underway will help to keep it alive, or even if this spirit can be sustained sufficiently to surmount the daunting structural problems of a country like Egypt. We cannot know whether these upheavals will amount to real regime change, and whether Tunisians and Egyptians will succeed in establishing fundamentally new political systems, or will just end up with Ben Ali-lite and Mubarakism without Mubarak.

...

Another major question is whether what has happened in Tunisia and Egypt, and what appears to be happening in Libya, marks the beginning of a real Arab revolutionary wave. So far the demonstrations in Yemen, Jordan, Algeria, Bahrain, Morocco, and Iraq are no more than a potent expression of universal dissatisfaction with a rotten status quo. Although they are a powerful echo of events in Tunisia and Egypt which have been amplified by the media, there is no indication yet that any of them -- with the possible exception of Libya -- has the potential to overthrow those in power in these countries. For all the similarities between their regimes, each of these countries is very different from the others and from Tunisia and Egypt. The populations of several of them, notably Jordan, Algeria, Bahrain and Iraq, are less demographically homogenous than Egypt or Tunisia, with significant ethnic, regional or religious cleavages that rulers can always exploit to divide and rule. And in some cases, notably Algeria, Iraq, and Jordan, there is memory of bloody strife that recently or not so recently tore apart these societies, and may make people hesitant about protesting.

...



The last question these Arab revolutions raise is that of the role of the United States and its European partners in upholding the rotten Arab status quo which seems to be crumbling before our eyes. The United States is always torn in its Middle East foreign policy between its principles, including support for democracy, and its interests, including upholding dictators who do what is wanted of them.

...

In any case, this new moment in the Middle East will make the old business as usual approach in Washington much harder. The dictators and absolute monarchs, even if they stay in power, have been placed on notice that they cannot any longer ignore their peoples, as they have done before in making policy. Whether this meant submissively following Washington's lead in its Cold War against Iran, or in protecting Israel from any pressure as it colonized Palestinian land and entrenched its occupation, these highly unpopular policies of most Arab governments are no longer tenable. Much remains to be decided in the Arab world, and a real input of public opinion into the making of foreign policy there is still in the future. But the day when a Sadat or a King Hussein could ignore domestic and Arab public opinion and make peace with Israel while it brutalized the Palestinians may well be past.

Israel's peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan will most probably survive, even if there are real democratic transitions in the entire Arab world. But no one in Washington can rely on the complaisance and submissiveness towards Israel and the United States that was one of the features of the stagnant Arab order that is being challenged in the streets all over the region. What will replace it is unknown. It will largely be determined in these streets, ...
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

so far black africa is quiet. but a lot of boundary lines there are straight rulers drawn by colonial overlords during their retreat phase. resentments surely simmer beneath the placid waters going by the hutu-tutsi bloodbath and other situations....it a place where chinese have made huge inroads by cutting deals with korrupt warlord rulers....Massa might light the fuse on that one too and sit back to watch the fun with cigar and a glass of jack daniels :D

I realized the war between christianity and islam has given rise to FOUR new nations in the last 15 yrs alone

bosnia - vs - serbia
ethopia - vs - eritrea
sudan -vs- southern sudan (already ratified by UN sponsored plebiscite)
indonesia -vs- east timor

in the first it was a muslim minority splitting away...in the other three a christian minority.
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Post by Singha »

looking at the scale of massacres in mosques and people still fighting on against hardcore pan african militias, anger is very high.

hopefully the chota mahdi will hang from a lamp post outside his palace soon and spare the people more devastation. a cozy retirement cannot be held as a option due to this kind of wanton murder and unleashing merceneries on the people.

Massa should repair its tarnished rep by authorizing a B2 strike on qadhafi's inner circle and the mahdi himself, in whichever hole he is hiding...

NDTV

Benghazi, Libya: Rebels seeking to overturn the 40-year rule of Col. Moammar el-Gaddafi repelled a concerted assault by his forces on Thursday on cities close to the capital, removing any doubt that Libya's patchwork of protests had evolved into an increasingly well-armed revolutionary movement.

The series of determined stands by rebel forces on Thursday -- especially in the strategic city of Zawiyah, near important oil resources and 30 miles from the capital, Tripoli -- presented the gravest threat yet to the Libyan leader. There, more than 100 people were killed as Colonel Gaddafi's forces turned automatic weapons on a mosque filled with rebels, a witness said. Still, residents rallied afterward to protest.

Colonel Gaddafi's evident frustration at the resistance in Zawiyah spilled out in a rant by telephone over the state television network charging that Osama bin Laden had drugged the town's youth into a rebellious frenzy.

"Al Qaeda is the one who has recruited our sons," he said in a 30-minute tirade broadcast by the network. "It is bin Laden."


Colonel Gaddafi said, "Those people who took your sons away from you and gave them drugs and said, 'Let them die' are launching a campaign over cell phones against your sons, telling them not to obey their fathers and mothers."

The violence on Thursday underscored the contrast between the character of Libya's revolution and the uprising that toppled autocrats in neighbouring Egypt and Tunisia. Unlike those Facebook-enabled youth rebellions, the insurrection here has been led by people who are more mature and who have been actively opposing the regime for some time. It started with lawyers' syndicates that have campaigned peacefully for two years for a written constitution and some semblance of a rule of law.


Fuelled now by popular anger, the help of breakaway leaders of the armed forces and some of their troops, and weapons from looted military stockpiles or smuggled across the border, the rebellion here has escalated quickly and violently in little more than a week.

At the revolt's starting point, in the eastern city of Benghazi, Fathi Terbil, 39, the human rights lawyer whose detention first ignited the protests, drew a map of rebel-held territory in striking distance of Tripoli. "It is only a matter of days," he said.

A turning point in the uprising's evolution was arguably the defection of the interior minister, Abdel Fattah Younes al-Abidi, an army general who had been a close ally of Colonel Gaddafi.

The break by General Abidi, who has family roots near the revolt's eastern origins, encouraged other disaffected police, military and state security personnel to change sides as well. "We are hoping to use his experience," said Mr Terbil, who some called the linchpin of the revolt.

Opposition figures in rebel-held cities like Benghazi have been appearing on cable news channels promising that opponents of Colonel Gaddafi are heading toward Tripoli to bolster the resistance there. Their ability to carry out those assertions remains to be seen.

In parts of the country, the revolutionaries, as they call themselves, appear to have access to potentially large stores of weapons, including small arms and heavy artillery, automatic weapons smuggled from the Egyptian border and rocket-propelled grenades taken from army bases, like the Kabila in Benghazi.

Tawfik al-Shohiby, one of the rebels, said that in the early days of the revolt, one of his relatives bought $75,000 in automatic weapons from arms dealers on the Egyptian border and distributed them to citizens' groups in towns like Bayda.


So far, at least in the east, many of the weapons appear to be held in storage to defend against a future attempt by Colonel Gaddafi's forces to retake the territory. At a former security services building in Benghazi on Thursday, men in fatigues prepared to transport anti-aircraft and antitank weapons to what one said was a storage depot.

Like their counterparts in Tunisia and Egypt, the rebels in Libya have shown tech-savvy guile in circumventing government efforts to block their communication. To sidestep the government's blocking of the Internet and curbing of cell phone access, for example, some of the more active anti-government protesters distribute flash drives and CDs with videos of the fighting to friends in other towns and to journalists.

Mr Shohiby began helping lead an effort this week to shuttle foreign journalists from the Egyptian border to towns across eastern Libya.

His network of contacts was built on the Internet: not on Facebook, but on a popular soccer Web site. "I have friends from east to west, north to south," he said. "There are two guys in Sabha, one in Zawiyah, three friends in Misurata, for example," he said, speaking of towns that were the scenes of some of the clashes on Thursday.

Still, Mohammed Ali Abdallah, deputy secretary general of an opposition group in exile, The National Front for the Salvation of Libya, said the Libyan government's fierce crackdown made organizing the spontaneous uprising a continuing challenge, especially in heavily guarded Tripoli.

"It is almost like hit and runs," he said. "There are almost no ways that those young guys can organize themselves. You can't talk on a mobile phone, and if five people get together in the street they get shot."

Nonetheless, protesters in Tripoli were calling for a massive demonstration on Friday after noon prayers, residents of the city and those fleeing the country said. In recent days, witnesses said, Colonel Gaddafi appears to have pulled many of his militiamen and mercenaries back toward the capital to prepare for its defence.

But despite the encroaching insurrection, Colonel Gaddafi appeared determined on Thursday to put on a show of strength and national unity, a stark turnabout from his approach so far.

Since the start of the uprising, his government had shut out all foreign journalists, cut off communications and even confiscated mobile phone chips, and other devices that might contain pictures, at the border from people fleeing the country. Libya had warned that reporters who entered the country illegally risked arrest and could be deemed collaborators of Al Qaeda.

But on Thursday Colonel Gaddafi's son and heir apparent Seif al-Islam el-Gaddafi announced on television that the government would allow teams of journalists to visit Tripoli. Witnesses said preparations for the visit were already under way.

The soldiers and mercenaries who had previously roamed the streets had largely disappeared by the late afternoon, leaving only traffic police officers, and the capital's central Green Square -- the scene of violent clashes earlier this week -- had been cleaned up. Two banners, in English, now adorned the square. "Al Jazeera, BBC, don't spread lies that reflect other's wishful thinking," one read. The other: "Family members talk but never fight between each other."

But the rebels' unexpected strength was undeniable on Thursday as they appeared to hold or contest several towns close to Colonel Gaddafi's stronghold in Tripoli in the face of a coordinated push by his mercenaries and security forces.

In Misurata, 130 miles the east of the capital, Colonel Gaddafi's forces struck at rebels guarding the airport with rocket-propelled grenades and mortar shells, The Associated Press reported. But the rebels seized an anti-aircraft gun used by the militias and turned it against them.

In Zuwarah, 75 miles west of the capital, the police and security forces had pulled out and a "people's committee" was controlling the city, several people who had fled across the border reported. "The people are taking care of their own business," said Basem Shams, 26, a fisherman.

In Sabratha, 50 miles west of the capital, witnesses reported that the police headquarters and offices of Colonel Gaddafi's revolutionary committees were all in smouldering ruins. "We are not afraid; we are watching," said a doctor by telephone from Sabratha. "What I am sure about, is that change is coming."

In Zawiyah, an envoy from Colonel Gaddafi had reportedly arrived to warn rebels on Wednesday: "Either leave or you will see a massacre," one resident told The Associated Press.

About 5 a.m. Thursday, Colonel Gaddafi's forces fulfilled their threat. Witnesses said a force that included about 60 foreign mercenaries assaulted a central mosque where some of the roughly 2,000 protesters had sought refuge. One witness said the protesters were armed mainly with rifles, sticks and knives, but after four hours of fighting they managed to hold the square.

About 100 people were killed and 200 others wounded, this witness said. During a telephone interview with him, a voice could be heard over a loudspeaker in the background telling the crowd, in an area known as Martyrs Square, not to be afraid.

"People came to send a clear message: We are not afraid of death or your bullets," one resident told The A.P. "This regime will regret it. History will not forgive them."

Meanwhile, the violence sowed concern across the region and beyond. President Obama spoke Thursday, in separate calls, with President Nicolas Sarkozy of France and the prime ministers of Britain and Italy, David Cameron and Silvio Berlusconi.

The White House said the leaders expressed "deep concern" over the Libyan government's use of force and discussed possible responses, without specifying what steps they were prepared to take.
ramana
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

ShyamD, Read this last interview of KS garu:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1036694
There is a method in this Arab revolt.There is a need to bring new type of alignment with new impulse of popular representation.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by AKalam »

I think it is well past the time to invoke R2P and put this joker out of his misery without any further delay and meaningless loss of life:

http://www.responsibilitytoprotect.org/ ... ng-of-rtop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect
http://www.undispatch.com/a-responsibil ... t-in-libya

http://turtlebay.foreignpolicy.com/post ... an_war_cri

Europeans, backed by U.S., demand U.N. investigation of Libyan war crimes
Posted By Colum Lynch Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 7:56 PM Share
European governments, backed by the United States, will press Friday at a special session of the U.N. Human Rights Council for the adoption of a resolution condemning Muammar al-Qaddafi's government for its bloody crackdown on demonstrators and to establish a U.N. commission of inquiry to probe possible war crimes by Libyan authorities.

Friday's meeting will mark the first time that the Geneva-based U.N. rights council will meet in an emergency session to address serious human rights violations by an Arab government. It also provided the first clear sign that the popular uprisings in the Middle East are forcing governments to rethink their traditional alliances to autocratic governments like Libya's at a time when they are facing existential threats to their rule.

Diplomats say that the European sponsors of the draft have already mustered more than 20 cosponsors to their initiative, including the United States, Mexico, Jordan, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority's observer mission. European governments, meanwhile, are planning to convene a session of the U.N. General Assembly next week to consider a measure to suspend Libya's membership in the U.N.'s Geneva-based Human Rights Council.

The confidential draft statement -- which was obtained by Turtle Bay but which is still being negotiated -- "strongly condemns the recent gross systematic human rights violations committed in Libya... some of which may amount to crimes against humanity." It also "strongly calls upon the government of Libya to meet its responsibility to protect its population" and "immediately put an end to all human rights violations."

The statement also demands "an independent, international commission of inquiry... to investigate all alleged violations of international human rights law in Libya in connection with the ongoing protests in the country." The commission would be instructed to identify, where possible, "those responsible" for the crimes, and "make recommendations, in particular, on accountability measures, all with a view to ensuring that those individuals responsible are held accountable."

While the draft statement does not identify a chief investigator, leaving it to the Thai president of the rights council to select members of the commission of inquiry, it calls on the U.N. high commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay, and the U.N. secretariat to provide administrative support to the team.

The draft statement reflects the international anxiety over the plight of foreign nationals, including U.S. citizens, urging the Libyan authorities to "ensure the safety of all civilians, including citizens of third countries" and to "facilitate the departure of those foreign nationals wishing to leave the country."

The Geneva debate comes just days after the U.N. Security Council issued a non-binding statement condemning Libya's violent crackdown on Libyan protesters. The U.S., Britain, France, Germany and other governments are now in negotiations over a binding Chapter 7 resolution that would condemn Libya's conduct and consider imposing unspecified sanctions on the regime.

In a Security Council session Thursday morning, Britain's U.N. ambassador Mark Lyall-Grant appealed to his council partners to consider applying greater pressure on Qaddafi's government, a council diplomat said. China and Russia said they wanted to first hear more credible information on events on the ground from the U.N. secretariat before considering next steps. But they did not block further action on the matter. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon is expected to brief the council Friday morning on developments.

Please follow me on Twitter @columlynch.
shyamd
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

Thanks Ramana. Very interesting.

US is already planning the military option with EU and Egypt. Egypt may do a ground incursion into eastern Libya. Backed by small EU detachments.
The aim is to split it into 2. Divides the oil resources into 2 as well. Gaddafi will go back to the Sahara, his traditional support base.
SBS is placed on standby for rescue missions. This confirms what I heard yesterday.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

benghazi... tobruk... ghazala... (qattara depression... el alamein?!?!)
lot of history for the IA
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Hari Seldon »

Singha wrote:I realized the war between christianity and islam has given rise to FOUR new nations in the last 15 yrs alone

bosnia - vs - serbia
ethopia - vs - eritrea
sudan -vs- southern sudan (already ratified by UN sponsored plebiscite)
indonesia -vs- east timor

in the first it was a muslim minority splitting away...in the other three a christian minority.
Ethiopia is xtian majority. So its 2-2 rather than 3-1.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by SwamyG »

Short-term and long-term, how are these regime changes helpful to India?
shyamd
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Post by shyamd »

^^ They are helpful for India. See Above comment by me.

-------------------
Confirmation of earlier comment by Debka.

US military advisers in Cyrenaica. Qaddafi's loses his air force
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report February 25, 2011, 1:46 PM (GMT+02:00) Tags: Libya Qaddafi US military advisers Cyrenaica oil

British HMS Cumberland puts into Benghazi port
Hundreds of US, British and French military advisers have arrived in Cyrenaica, Libya's eastern breakaway province, DEBKAfile's military sources report exclusively. This is the first time America and Europe have intervened militarily in any of the popular upheavals rolling through the Middle East since Tunisia's Jasmine Revolution in early January. The advisers, including intelligence officers, were dropped from warships and missile boats at the coastal towns of Benghazi and Tobruk Thursday Feb. 24, for a threefold mission:
1. To help the revolutionary committees controlling eastern Libyan establish government frameworks for supplying two million inhabitants with basic services and commodities;
2. To organize them into paramilitary units, teach them how to use the weapons they captured from Libyan army facilities, help them restore law and order on the streets and train them to fight Muammar Qaddafi's combat units coming to retake Cyrenaica.
3. The prepare infrastructure for the intake of additional foreign troops. Egyptian units are among those under consideration.

Click here for first DEBKAfile report of Feb. 21 on the Cyrenaica insurgency.
Qaddafi was shaken up badly Friday, Feb. 25, when many of his air force commanders decided to no longer obey his orders or those of his commanders, DEBKAfile's exclusive military sources report. This loss deprived him at one stroke of one of the key pillars sustaining his fight for survival against the opposition since Sunday, Feb. 20. It means he is short of an essential resource for recapturing the eastern half of the country where half of Libya's oil wealth and its main oil export terminals are situated.
Friday, NATO Council and the UN Security Council meet in separate emergency sessions to consider ways to halt the bloodletting in Libya and punish its ruler Qaddafi for his violent crackdown of protesters.
DEBKAfile reported on Feb. 22: The 22,000-strong Libyan Air Force with its 13 bases is Muammar Qaddafi's mainstay for survival against massive popular and international dissent. The 44 air transports and a like number of helicopters swiftly lifted loyal tribal militiamen fully armed from the Sahara and dropped them in the streets of Tripoli Monday Feb. 21.
Thursday Qaddafi launched an offensive to wrest the coastal towns around Tripoli from rebel hands. Our military sources report that tanks pounded opposition positions in the towns of Misrata, 25 km to the east of Tripoli and Zawiya, 30 km west of the capital, under the command of Gen. Khweldi Hamidi, a Qaddafi kinsman.
In a bloody battle, the insurgents ousted Qaddafi's forces from Misrata, but his troops broke through to Zawiya and captured the town at great loss of life. There are no reliable casualty figures but hundreds are believed to have been killed Thursday on both sides.
Later that day, the insurgents of Cyrenaica announced they were firmly in control of the region including Libya's main export oil terminal in Benghazi, the country's second largest town. Whether or not they decide to block the fuel supplies coming from Qaddafi-ruled areas, their seizure of the facility alone was enough to send oil prices shooting up again on world markets.
Thursday night, Brent crude went for $117 the barrel in London and $103 in New York.
In a 30-minute telephone interview Thursday night, Qaddafi again charged that Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood had instigated the protest uprising in Libya. He warned that the fall of Cyrenaica would open Libya to the establishment of a Muslim jihadi and radical rear base for attacks on Europe and incursions into Egypt.
PRC sending a tough message.
China dispatches warship to protect Libya evacuation mission: Marks the PRC’s first use of frontline military assets to protect an evacuation mission
The PLA Navy has just dispatched Xuzhou, a Type 054 Jiangkai-II class missile frigate, from the ongoing seventh PLAN anti-piracy task force deployment off Somalia to steam to Libyan coast to provide support and protection for the ongoing evacuation mission there. The escort mission has been approved by the Central Military Commission, according to Xinhua, and at least 6,300 of the roughly 30,000 PRC citizens in Libya have been evacuated. The news agency adds that the Chinese evacuation is also utilizing chartered aircraft, overland routes to Egypt and Tunisia, ships from China’s major state shipping firms, and Greek merchant vessels in the region, which are said to be closely coordinating their operations with the Chinese government and plan to evacuate up to 15,000 Chinese from Libya.
Beijing’s speedy response shows nimbleness in handling a situation where descent into chaos has directly impacted Chinese citizens’ security. As of 23 February 2011, the Ministry of Commerce said at least 27 Chinese-run construction sites had been attacked by armed individuals and that there were numerous injuries. Commissioned in 2008, Xuzhou is a 4,000-ton frigate with a Vertical Launch System capable of launching HHQ-16 surface-to-air missiles to protect against air threats and a hangar with one Z-9 helicopter. It is a solid medium-sized warship, but cannot carry many people and thus would not be useful as a rescue vessel. Xuzhou’s escort mission is likely designed to serve several related immediate objectives, including avoiding a USS Cole-style terrorism or irregular attack scenario that could harm evacuees, and sending a clear message to various elements in Libya not to harm Chinese civilians or disrupt their evacuation. This latest initiative is part of a larger ongoing increase in Chinese power, presence, and influence around the world, and should come as no surprise. China has global interests, cannot free ride forever, and requires a presence in critical areas and situations in order to have a voice.
Tactical and strategic implications
Xuzhou’s mission marks an important milestone because to the best of our knowledge, this is the first ever dispatch of a PLA military platform specifically assigned to help protect a non-combatant evacuation operation (NEO) to help PRC citizens trapped in an active conflict zone. Chinese policymakers now have a precedent for future military operations in areas where the lives and property of expatriate PRC citizens come under threat. We expect that the Chinese people’s popular support for the mission will be high.
This action fits with the 2008 decision to launch the anti-piracy mission in the Gulf of Aden. On the tactical level, it reflects the PLAN’s growing confidence and capacity in conducting long-range operations. The mission is also a booster shot for the PLAN’s public image in China and will likely help it secure more funding in coming years.
Successfully protecting Chinese merchant ships from pirates and evacuating Chinese citizens from violent areas are great cards for PLA senior naval officers and civilian supporters of a strong navy to play during internal procurement debates. Having the PLAN consistently answer the call when China’s overseas comrades and commercial interests needs protection clearly explains the force’s value and will smooth the way for advocates of the carrier program, as well as those who seek a more robust long-range naval capability in general.
Finally, as China’s military modernizes its platforms and bolsters its long-range operational capabilities and experience, it can draw on the precedent set in this mission if protection missions or interventions become necessary in the future. On the international level, safeguarding the evacuation of PRC citizens provides a positive and peaceful rationale for logistically-useful operations that also provide advantageous military training opportunities. We think such contingencies are very likely as China’s expatriate workers continue seeking their fortunes in potentially volatile regions such as Africa. Xuzhou’s deployment reflects the reality that Beijing is now more willing to employ military power when PRC citizens overseas are threatened. By demonstrating concrete will and operational capability, a more muscular Chinese foreign military posture such as that shown by Xuzhou’s mission may actually be a positive lever for cooperation against non-traditional security threats. Therefore, we think once the dust settles, Xuzhou’s dispatch should be discussed with Chinese diplomatic and security officials to explore ways to better coordinate bilateral and multilateral military cooperation.
RamaY
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by RamaY »

Singha wrote: I realized the war between christianity and islam has given rise to FOUR new nations in the last 15 yrs alone

bosnia - vs - serbia
ethopia - vs - eritrea
sudan -vs- southern sudan (already ratified by UN sponsored plebiscite)
indonesia -vs- east timor

in the first it was a muslim minority splitting away...in the other three a christian minority.
And yet, people fail to see the christian foundations of western polity and governance... [sic] secular minds in deed.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by RamaY »

ramana wrote:ShyamD, Read this last interview of KS garu:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1036694
There is a method in this Arab revolt.There is a need to bring new type of alignment with new impulse of popular representation.
Why these hijab-revolutions and why now?

Massa encouraged arab dictators for wells of energy during CW I to fight communist USSR. Communist PRC learned this lesson well and paying west in the same coin. So West is ushering democracy in Islamic lands; as it will multiply the players in the game. It would
* Weaken PRC's hold on any govt - Who will benefit from increased energy prices?
* Keeps [sic] 'democratic' options open for west - who is afraid of democracy?

For example in Lebanon - A Hariri was assassinated, where as another Hariri was brought down in a democratic manner.
shyamd
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

^^ Are you suggesting that there was a western conspiracy in bringing down Saad Harriri?
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