The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[shivajisisodia]

the Prime Minister personally can get someone arrested and then when he decides or is pursuaded by someone, presumably Rahul Gandhi in this case, he can unilaterally get that someone released. So, where is the rule of law ? The IPC ? The due process ? Judiciary ?

Sounds more to me like an authoritarian state.

When the "someone" is from the G-khandaan, even the Himalayas can be moved aside in Desh.

Regardless of how unhealthy I think we Indians are, and how pessimistic I am about India's future and knowing fully well that unless we fix something deep inside each one of us we will keep getting garbage for leaders, and completely understanding that without fundamental change in our thinking, if somehow the Gandhi family goes, it will be replaced by another piece of garbage or worse, I still say that it is time, the Gandhi family is shown its "aukaat". Indians have to find a short term fix to ensure that very soon this family gets its comeuppance and perhaps not in the painless manner that how Mrs. G and Rajiv G got theirs.

[Virupaksha]

Nikhil B and rajan b,

Who are AH's supporters? Why is he getting publicity?? Dont tell me that publicity is "cheap" no it is not, simply doing a hunger strike gets you nothing, absolute nothing.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sadhu-dies-a ... 098-3.html
Why did the sadhu get absolute 0 publicity and why is AH covering the whole newspapers?? His initial fasts got less than 100 people coming, but were covered as thought the whole delhi came and even now for this round, he got how many?? 1500 people after so many headlines in newspapers and so much promotion. tells me enough that there is a serious disconnect between his publicity and his capacity to do stuff.

So spare us from your takleef when people call him out.

[sum]

Never to vote for a party, but try and judge who the best candidate was for the welfare of the people in my constituency and vote for that candidate.

Well, i guess thats what most people do which is why we have coalitions which lead to absolute scum whom we don't want coming to power and who care only about their constituents even when at the center and give a damn about national priorities ( like a rly minister only putting trains to his state or a def min opening new factories only in his area).
Sadly, its only these guys who favor their people over the country's need who will be re-elected since they did what their constituents wanted!!

[BijuShet]

...
The politicians are voted to become our masters and we the serfs.

Small correction to your post.

I voted for the UPA politicians to become my master and I their serf.

Here I fixed it for you.

Now go and chant UPA zindabad in your corner and please don't bother the Hindutvaadis from being fascists and what not against the current secular GoI and its democratic agenda.

[chackojoseph]

Sonia Gandhi's NAC is not civil Society?

[SwamyG]

Nikhil:
First, I was summarizing some of the thoughts that has been floating. I do not have all the information to conclude if he is a mole or not. So in the interest of getting different sides I included that POV of in my post.
Second, nobody is sacrosanct. If one is a public figure then people are bound to ask questions and make allegations. The public figure has the option to deal with it or ignore it.
Third, if a particular POV does not make sense or is no longer valid, then we just throw that POV out the window

[rajanb]

Nikhil B and rajan b,

Who are AH's supporters? Why is he getting publicity?? Dont tell me that publicity is "cheap" no it is not, simply doing a hunger strike gets you nothing, absolute nothing.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sadhu-dies-a ... 098-3.html
Why did the sadhu get absolute 0 publicity and why is AH covering the whole newspapers?? His initial fasts got less than 100 people coming, but were covered as thought the whole delhi came and even now for this round, he got how many?? 1500 people after so many headlines in newspapers and so much promotion. tells me enough that there is a serious disconnect between his publicity and his capacity to do stuff.

So spare us from your takleef when people call him out.

I sincerely felt anguished when I saw the news about this Sadhu. There is a lot which is wrong with our society. In my humble opinion, the root cause is corruption. And the lack of education. Literacy and education are not ==. Being educated, means knowing what your rights are. Are the voters educated? Sadly no.

But I will back the best chances of winning. That Sadhu is an unsung hero in my book. And hopefully the most populous causes (use the system to win one's battles) will negate the need for such sadhus dying.

Will Anna's cause win? I hope so.

Will the system defeat it? I hope not.

The jury is out.

I do understand your takleef.

[sum]

There you have it:
PM ordered Anna's release after consulting Rahul

The decision was taken following a one-and-a-half-hour meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [ Images ], Congress general secretary Rahul Gandhi [ Images ] and Congress chief Sonia Gandhi's [ Images ] political advisor Ahmed Patel, where the trio took stock of the situation following the detention of Anna Hazare, who began his fast unto death despite being in police detention.

Rahul Gandhi made it clear that the UPA government should not do anything that may force an uprising like in 1977, sources said.

He agreed with Rahul's suggestion that Anna should be released from Tihar jail as the action against him was proving to be counter-productive.

The knight in shining armor save the day again!!!

[rajanb]

Never to vote for a party, but try and judge who the best candidate was for the welfare of the people in my constituency and vote for that candidate.

Well, i guess thats what most people do which is why we have coalitions which lead to absolute scum whom we don't want coming to power and who care only about their constituents even when at the center and give a damn about national priorities ( like a rly minister only putting trains to his state or a def min opening new factories only in his area).
Sadly, its only these guys who favor their people over the country's need who will be re-elected since they did what their constituents wanted!!

I would be glad to hear about an alternative. I hate coalitions.

[rajanb]

There you have it:
PM ordered Anna's release after consulting Rahul

The decision was taken following a one-and-a-half-hour meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [ Images ], Congress general secretary Rahul Gandhi [ Images ] and Congress chief Sonia Gandhi's [ Images ] political advisor Ahmed Patel, where the trio took stock of the situation following the detention of Anna Hazare, who began his fast unto death despite being in police detention.

Rahul Gandhi made it clear that the UPA government should not do anything that may force an uprising like in 1977, sources said.

He agreed with Rahul's suggestion that Anna should be released from Tihar jail as the action against him was proving to be counter-productive.

The knight in shining armor save the day again!!!

A knight in pampers, I dare say. And a diamond encrusted golden spoon in his mouth

[chackojoseph]

P. Chidambaram (who won after cheating in election: courtesy Jayalalitha) says that law cannot be made on street. Is not govt a representative of people? P. Chidambaram thinks govt is all mighty. They are the ruler. The writ of the people is more than any constitution or parliamentary formalities.

[rajanb]

...
The politicians are voted to become our masters and we the serfs.

Small correction to your post.

I voted for the UPA politicians to become my master and I their serf.

Here I fixed it for you.

Now go and chant UPA zindabad in your corner and please don't bother the Hindutvaadis from being fascists and what not against the current secular GoI and its democratic agenda.

And I thought I voted in a secret ballot. Did you fix the EVM?

[IndraD]

It appears that Chidambaram assured he will take care of Anna and PM confided in him but as heat grew up some one from Gandhi has interfered , today's development is result of multiple centres of power. Direct beneficiary is BJP with all this in next election though with sumo Gadkari and others I do not know if they have the capability to take advantage.

-100 to congress for

1. face loss
2. coming across as a weak party
3. with multiple centres of power
4. poor strategy makers inside; if they arrested they should have had capability to retain Anna other wise the whole strategy should have been different
5. Rajmata is out not without a cause when she comes back some heads are gonna roll
6. Chidu's position has been undermined

[BijuShet]

OT alert to stop UPA propogandus in full blast mode today,

And I thought I voted in a secret ballot. Did you fix the EVM?

NDA in the opposition for 5 years (2004-2009) fixed the EVMs to reelect your favorite UPA sarkar in the 2009 election. Khush!!!

Now go back to your narabaazi UPA zindabaad!!!

[ramana]

Sonia Gandhi's NAC is not civil Society?

No. They are uncivil society!

[rajanb]

OT alert to stop UPA propogandus in full blast mode today,

And I thought I voted in a secret ballot. Did you fix the EVM?

NDA in the opposition for 5 years (2004-2009) fixed the EVMs to reelect your favorite UPA sarkar in the 2009 election. Khush!!!

Now go back to your narabaazi UPA zindabaad!!!

Thios is O/T for this thread so my last post to you.

You seem to be a double agint!

[NikhilB]

Nikhil B and rajan b,

Who are AH's supporters? Why is he getting publicity?? Dont tell me that publicity is "cheap" no it is not, simply doing a hunger strike gets you nothing, absolute nothing.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sadhu-dies-a ... 098-3.html
Why did the sadhu get absolute 0 publicity and why is AH covering the whole newspapers?? His initial fasts got less than 100 people coming, but were covered as thought the whole delhi came and even now for this round, he got how many?? 1500 people after so many headlines in newspapers and so much promotion. tells me enough that there is a serious disconnect between his publicity and his capacity to do stuff.

So spare us from your takleef when people call him out.

Okay, I am with you regarding this news on Sadhu who laid his life for ganga. My pranam to his soul.

But then we are following logic
This poor sadhu did not get any publicity but AH is getting so much publicity so he must be frauad. I don't think it is such linear equation.

Anna is been equipped with very able and strong team - they are NGOs, prominent lawyers, law ministers, lokautas, former IPS officer etc. They presented something concrete on table for people - Jan LokPaal Bil - and hence people are supporting.
Believe me, had this been a generic fight against just corruption without a specific goal, I doubt, support would have been much much less. Now people can clearly see the difference, and they beleive - what's wrong in getting lokpal bill in parliment.

Actually this is BJP's job, and it has failed miserably in mobilising nation's pulse against corruption. Anna has done it. I am a life long supporter of BJP but that does not make me to support BJP of everything and apprehend every action of others as consipracy to split BJP vote bank. BJP has failed in this task. So let us not be afriad of everything that is oppsite to INC and that is not coming from BJP is a consiparacy to split BJP vote bank.

I think if you are true BJP supporter now, the main message to spread is -
Why does Rahul Gandhi take all the credit of good things (say, releasing Anna was a good decision) and let Congressmn (Chidambaram, Soni, etc) to defend bad actiosn (say, arresting a bad action). Let us spread this message and this is a fact. Gandhi family can go to extend to malign INC but all goodness should remain with Gandhi family. BJP has got life time chance to re-inforce this message into Conress chamchas that you are nothing - chidambram is nothin, MMS is nothing, Sibal is nothing - you can't take decisions alone. You spent 30 years in Indian politics and Rahul Gandhi decides what's good action. Wow. If INC folks see this contradition, there are high chances of split between chamchas and G family. Afterall they are humans, and they are insulted today by G family.

[rajanb]

It appears that Chidambaram assured he will take care of Anna and PM confided in him but as heat grew up some one from Gandhi has interfered , today's development is result of multiple centres of power. Direct beneficiary is BJP with all this in next election though with sumo Gadkari and others I do not know if they have the capability to take advantage.

-100 to congress for

1. face loss
2. coming across as a weak party
3. with multiple centres of power
4. poor strategy makers inside; if they arrested they should have had capability to retain Anna other wise the whole strategy should have been different
5. Rajmata is out not without a cause when she comes back some heads are gonna roll
6. Chidu's position has been undermined

I notice that dhoti shivering is going on in the UPA. The crowds are swelling with Anna refusing to be released with conditions.

[Virupaksha]

Are the newspaper wallahs educated?? yes. It is they who determine the amount of publicity one gets. Why did these "educated ones" determine that AH has to be publicized whereas nigamananda swamy should not??
Is Anna himself part of the system?

[chetak]

Nikhil B and rajan b,

Who are AH's supporters? Why is he getting publicity?? Dont tell me that publicity is "cheap" no it is not, simply doing a hunger strike gets you nothing, absolute nothing.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sadhu-dies-a ... 098-3.html
Why did the sadhu get absolute 0 publicity and why is AH covering the whole newspapers?? His initial fasts got less than 100 people coming, but were covered as thought the whole delhi came and even now for this round, he got how many?? 1500 people after so many headlines in newspapers and so much promotion. tells me enough that there is a serious disconnect between his publicity and his capacity to do stuff.

So spare us from your takleef when people call him out.

Okay, I am with you regarding this news on Sadhu who laid his life for ganga. My pranam to his soul.

But then we are following logic
This poor sadhu did not get any publicity but AH is getting so much publicity so he must be frauad. I don't think it is such linear equation.

Anna is been equipped with very able and strong team - they are NGOs, prominent lawyers, law ministers, lokautas, former IPS officer etc. They presented something concrete on table for people - Jan LokPaal Bil - and hence people are supporting.
Believe me, had this been a generic fight against just corruption without a specific goal, I doubt, support would have been much much less. Now people can clearly see the difference, and they beleive - what's wrong in getting lokpal bill in parliment.

Actually this is BJP's job, and it has failed miserably in mobilising nation's pulse against corruption. Anna has done it. I am a life long supporter of BJP but that does not make me to support BJP of everything and apprehend every action of others as consipracy to split BJP vote bank. BJP has failed in this task. So let us not be afriad of everything that is oppsite to INC and that is not coming from BJP is a consiparacy to split BJP vote bank.

I think if you are true BJP supporter now, the main message to spread is -
Why does Rahul Gandhi take all the credit of good things (say, releasing Anna was a good decision) and let Congressmn (Chidambaram, Soni, etc) to defend bad actiosn (say, arresting a bad action). Let us spread this message and this is a fact. Gandhi family can go to extend to malign INC but all goodness should remain with Gandhi family. BJP has got life time chance to re-inforce this message into Conress chamchas that you are nothing - chidambram is nothin, MMS is nothing, Sibal is nothing - you can't take decisions alone. You spent 30 years in Indian politics and Rahul Gandhi decides what's good action. Wow. If INC folks see this contradition, there are high chances of split between chamchas and G family. Afterall they are humans, and they are insulted today by G family.

The BJP and the RSS combine are not wanted in this agitation stage managed by Anna's gang.

There is certainly a hidden agenda here which fights shy of sharing the credit with even Baba

RamDev. Note that Baba is very conspicuous by his absense. He did half heartedly offer to

join the fast yesterday but was immediately snubbed.

This gang fronting Anna is an unknown entity and it's backers are not clearly visible.

Black lentils.

[chackojoseph]

Sonia Gandhi's NAC is not civil Society?

No. They are uncivil society!

P. Chidambaram 's election is questionable. How can he make laws?

[Sanku]

I came across one.

That the Anti Corruption movement was not democratic and weakening democratic institutions.
.

Fairly untrue.

[Sanku]

. Afterall they are humans, and they are insulted today by G family.

Boss, these guys can not be insulted, the chamcha log have no respect, they race with each other to the bottom of how much they can fall to please their masters.

With all due respects, I dont think you really understand how these political steps work.

There is a reason for paranoia.

[SwamyG]

^^^
That is their 15 minutes to fame. If they had some respect to begin with, they would not have been ready to be a puppet or an attack dog. It is not that UPA has a very noble cause for them to push their personal glory and dignity for some great cause.

[ramana]

Time to start an new award:

Chamcha/Tamasha-e-Hindusthan.

[abhijitm]

I don't care what ideology Anna is following; I dont care who is behind all this because there is no clear evidence and I refuse to draw myself in any speculation. What I see is what I believe, and I see a 73 year old social worker who has devoted his entire life for some good cause without lust of power, money. I see he is fighting for the better future for my son & daughter, and I support him. I support his cause because he and his team has brought something concrete on the table. Some focus to the movement against the corruption. I don't know how this will end. I don't even know if Lokapal bill can end corruption. But I know its a start and I want to be a part of it, physically and morally. Because there is something good in this country, and its worth fighting for. For my children and children's children, for my country.

Jai Hind.

[Sanku]

I don't care what ideology Anna is following; I dont care who is behind all this because there is no clear evidence and I refuse to draw myself in any speculation.

Well Sir, I hope for all our sakes that the simplistic view of things turns out to be the reality, for a change I may say so, in this world.

Its not quite like any of us would not like "heros" to swoon over, we all do. Yet when folks like Marten say that hold on, there is more, I would personally listen. And very carefully.

There is no doubt that Agnivesh's of the world are nothing but bad news for India, and there are many of them around Anna, the only hope is, in this game of smoke and mirrors, are they being used by nationalists, or are they using nationalism.

We shall see.

[Muppalla]

For those folks here who still think this whole Arrest and release is a drama orchestrated by INC read the following news (not blogs/article). Note that I am NOT saying Anna is part of the drama. But the government is doing all the drama and Anna's gangs are actors in the drama probably unknowingly.

India against corruption: PM holds huddle leaving out key Sonia aides

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Monday seemed to be taking charge of Congress's counter-offensive against Anna Hazare by holding a huddle with senior party leaders, including Rahul Gandhi and finance minister Pranab Mukherjee.

The rare initiative came just after the flag-hoisting ceremony at Congress headquarters, and was at variance with the perception that Singh, with the exception of his insistence on pushing the Indo-US nuclear deal through, has been content following the party's lead.

Information and broadcasting minister Ambika Soni and general secretary Janardan Dwivedi were part of the deliberations which, among other things, focused on assessing how the confrontation with civil society might play out in the media.

The unusual display of leadership on a political issue came against the backdrop of the assessment in Congress about the divide between PMO and party brass on how to tackle the challenge from Anna's camp.

That was August 15th.

Now on August 16th it is Yuvraj talking to PM and asking to release Anna. Media frenzy with RG all over the screens

Now tell me if it is not a drama.

[Sanku]

Well for me there are two saving graces

1) Justice Hegde (and his past AND recent work )

2) It was MCD (BJP) which gave JP park to Anna, NDMC (Congress) did not give him any permission in any part of the NDMC area.

------------------------------------

Also BJP is sending out message to its cadres to support Anna, one hopes they have factored all of the above possible renegades in.

[shravan]

Christian leaders denounce anti-corruption agitation
http://www.cathnewsindia.com/2011/08/16 ... agitation/

John Dayal, a lay leader, said that “this dictatorial attitude shows that Hazare has no respect for democratic norms.”

--

Isn't he a NAC member?

[RamaY]

I don't care what ideology Anna is following; I dont care who is behind all this because there is no clear evidence and I refuse to draw myself in any speculation.

Said so many moons ago. Difference between AH and BR

AH - Wants clean govt. But can settle for an anti-national govt as long as it is clean.

BR - Wants nationalistic govt. Clean govt is a byproduct of that.

[negi]

^ Boss how can clean-government be anti-national ?

[abhijitm]

Well Sir, I hope for all our sakes that the simplistic view of things turns out to be the reality, for a change I may say so, in this world....

whats the difference does it make? Bottomline is people are getting sensitized and mobilized. Its only a start. Will you not join the voice just because you think it might be supported by X community and not Y community? You just have to take the cue and start your own cause. This is how a movement gathers the momentum. You will never shout alone. So siege the apportunity, join the voice and make it louder. Be selfish Life is sometimes simple, believe it or not.

[Sanku]

Well Sir, I hope for all our sakes that the simplistic view of things turns out to be the reality, for a change I may say so, in this world....

whats the difference does it make? Bottomline is people are getting sensitized and mobilized. Its only a start. Will you not join the voice just because you think it might be supported by X community and not Y community? You just have to take the cue and start your own cause. This is how a movement gathers the momentum. You will never shout alone. So siege the apportunity, join the voice and make it louder. Be selfish Life is sometimes simple, believe it or not.

Oh sure, you think people are not making use of the opportunity ? Of all hues ? That's given.

Here we have the luxury to also think far behind the event to wonder about possible outcomes post it. BRF is also the place for that you know.

[RamaY]

^ Boss how can clean-government be anti-national ?

Perception-wise. Until recently MMS is seen as clean-govt.

If UPA II agrees to include PM in LP bill, it can be an acceptable compromise for AH. How that (LP process) gets used is of no concern to him.

[VinayB]

Christian leaders denounce anti-corruption agitation
http://www.cathnewsindia.com/2011/08/16 ... agitation/

John Dayal, a lay leader, said that “this dictatorial attitude shows that Hazare has no respect for democratic norms.”

--

Isn't he a NAC member?

One more data point that Team Anna could be sponsored with aim to split a section of anti-UPA vote. Need to keep the sheep from straying over to that camp by accident, and splitting your own herd.

[Sanku]

^ Boss how can clean-government be anti-national ?

Chiner chairman, amar chairman?

[RamaY]

whats the difference does it make? Bottomline is people are getting sensitized and mobilized. Its only a start. Will you not join the voice just because you think it might be supported by X community and not Y community? You just have to take the cue and start your own cause. This is how a movement gathers the momentum. You will never shout alone. So siege the apportunity, join the voice and make it louder. Be selfish Life is sometimes simple, believe it or not.

Probably thats what BR thought, to his disappointment.

[abhijitm]

Oh sure, you think people are not making use of the opportunity ? Of all hues ? That's given.

Here we have the luxury to also think far behind the event to wonder about possible outcomes post it. BRF is also the place for that you know.

There will be people who use the opportunity, like BJP or other parties. But who cares? As long as anti-corruption movement gets the publicity and people are getting opportunity to raise the voice.

What possible outcomes there will be? If more and more people join then something, may be.

[Sanku]

What possible outcomes there will be? If more and more people join then something, may be.

Well, people were just pointing out various outcomes based on whats the real situation, till you came along and told us that "all izz well" and we dont need to worry.

So with your permission we will go back to worrying about who is the real backer and are people being taken for a ride (a la marathi manoos ) with MNS.

If you want you can hang around and listen to other perspectives as well, no ones stopping you you know.