Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Mar 2018 18:51

*deleted* Stupid post.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Mar 2018 21:27

Posting here from Twitter: New projects sanctioned by GoI. Thanks to Strategic Frontier on Twitter for this.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Mar 2018 21:34

Haridas wrote:Gagan Ulla sahib

Just Gagan will do Haridas ji

My understanding is that A3->A5 has seen increments in all aspects. Unless a higher ISP propellant is not chosen, how do they lift off a more heavier missile?
They could have saved weight by going to Carbon Fibre, but the A5 1st stage is Maraging steel no? A3's 1st stage is Carbon fibre.

They have to have a higher ISP propellant on A5 & 6. Also the K4 & 5.
A3 and A5 are very different systems. A3 is more of a TD

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 08 Mar 2018 12:35

Gagan wrote:My understanding is that A3->A5 has seen increments in all aspects. Unless a higher ISP propellant is not chosen, how do they lift off a more heavier missile?

Gagan ji, IIRC the A3 booster thrust generates about 150 ton force thrust (30 tonne booster fuel burns for about 55 sec & typical ISP 270), enough to give +2G acceleration to a 50 tonne all up missile, and more for 45 tonne missile. As you can see the thrust is burn rate times ISP; and initial acceleration should be high (typically few Gs) to reduce impulse loss due to gravity while the missile is in flight with low angular velocity such that its mass is not significantly lavitatated by centrifugal force. The ~ 8% heavier A5 is well served by a A3 booster to get the ~2G initial acceleration.

They have to have a higher ISP propellant on A5 & 6. Also the K4 & 5.

More thrust is obtained by increasing burn rate. E.g. the 17 Tonne Agni2 booster fuel ISP is ~260, while THE ~48 TON A3, A5 booster ISP is about the same. A2 and A3, A5 lift off acceleration is similar too. How come A3 or A5 booster ISP is not scaled up to be > twice that of A2 (a whopping ISP of ~600) ? And what the the highest known ISP for solid fuel engine?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Mar 2018 12:53

Gagan wrote:Posting here from Twitter: New projects sanctioned by GoI. Thanks to Strategic Frontier on Twitter for this.

Thats a long list of program interesting ones !

What is Long Range SAM for the Navy Aircraft Carrier, 150 km range Barak-8 ?

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Mar 2018 13:02

^^^
Same Barak-8 -> 70Km which is called LRSAM by the IN.

That line item is for integration of a Barak-8 system on the IAC.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 08 Mar 2018 15:08

Line item#11 gets 180 karore

Is Dhruvastra the Brimstone equivalent?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 08 Mar 2018 15:58

My guess,

Dhruvastra = Dhruv + Astra (= Helina = Heli + Nag).

Probably named internally before Rudra and LCH materialised.

SAAW and other precision munition projects are more like Brimstone.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2018 16:01

item #9 is probably prospina/nag in naval role for anti-FAC/smuggler role
khan makes a big show of it with its own sliding door vls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNli7tNKxgA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G22B0WfdzM8

#10 seems like our take on the klub asw missile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Kal ... ks2009.jpg
this will extend the ships attack range on sub majorly and can fire based on cues from third parties.

dhruvastra, maybe be a powered weapon like AASM/popeye/kh59. to supplement larger number of SAAW gliders

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 08 Mar 2018 16:06

I love the ambition of this list. They truly are determined to go local for all missiles and munitions.

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Mar 2018 16:26

What is Anvesha?

Is Rudra a general name for TD? Rudra-3 sanctioned without Rudra-2 completing? Before all that what is Rudra-1?

John · Post by **John** » 08 Mar 2018 16:51

srai wrote:^^^
Same Barak-8 -> 70Km which is called LRSAM by the IN.

That line item is for integration of a Barak-8 system on the IAC.

Is that for integration? Or combination of procurement cost from Israel plus installation and integration cost.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Mar 2018 16:58

^^^
Would be total cost

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Mar 2018 17:10

hnair wrote:...

Is Dhruvastra the Brimstone equivalent?

It seems different variations of HELINA are in the works. Or maybe different launchers.

Original HELINA launcher

Dhruvastra - looks to be upgrade to the above

SANT - missile directly mounted on pylon (looks bigger than regular HELINA)

The differences between NAG and HELINA:

srin · Post by **srin** » 08 Mar 2018 18:13

^^^ In the last pic, the Nag has those big booster exhausts mid-body, while Helina has comparatively tiny hole of some sort mid body - doesn't look like an exhaust. Any idea what that is ?

srin · Post by **srin** » 08 Mar 2018 18:18

Singha wrote:item #9 is probably prospina/nag in naval role for anti-FAC/smuggler role
khan makes a big show of it with its own sliding door vls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNli7tNKxgA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G22B0WfdzM8

#10 seems like our take on the klub asw missile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Kal ... ks2009.jpg
this will extend the ships attack range on sub majorly and can fire based on cues from third parties.

dhruvastra, maybe be a powered weapon like AASM/popeye/kh59. to supplement larger number of SAAW gliders

I hope that short-range anti-ship missile is way more than those 8km range hellfires/griffins. It'd be much cheaper to use Oto 76mm with guided munitions or AK630 at even closer ranges. A short-range missile must be a decent 500-100km range (modified LRSAM ?).

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Mar 2018 18:34

srin wrote:
Singha wrote:item #9 is probably prospina/nag in naval role for anti-FAC/smuggler role
khan makes a big show of it with its own sliding door vls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNli7tNKxgA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G22B0WfdzM8

#10 seems like our take on the klub asw missile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Kal ... ks2009.jpg
this will extend the ships attack range on sub majorly and can fire based on cues from third parties.

dhruvastra, maybe be a powered weapon like AASM/popeye/kh59. to supplement larger number of SAAW gliders
I hope that short-range anti-ship missile is way more than those 8km range hellfires/griffins. It'd be much cheaper to use Oto 76mm with guided munitions or AK630 at even closer ranges. A short-range missile must be a decent 500-100km range (modified LRSAM ?).

Probably be more like MBDA's Sea Venom -> 30kg warhead with 20Km range. Total weight 110 kg. IMO, it would be more in line with HELINA-ER, or SANT

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2018 18:42

JTull wrote:My guess,

Dhruvastra = Dhruv + Astra

Agree but "Astra" in this case = generic Astra not Astra AAM

srin · Post by **srin** » 08 Mar 2018 18:52

srai wrote:
srin wrote:
I hope that short-range anti-ship missile is way more than those 8km range hellfires/griffins. It'd be much cheaper to use Oto 76mm with guided munitions or AK630 at even closer ranges. A short-range missile must be a decent 500-100km range (modified LRSAM ?).
Probably be more like MBDA's Sea Venom -> 30kg warhead with 20Km range. Total weight 110 kg. IMO, it would be more in line with HELINA-ER, or SANT

Oh - I was thinking ship launched, not heli-launched. The description of #9 doesn't tell us much.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Mar 2018 18:53

srin wrote:^^^ In the last pic, the Nag has those big booster exhausts mid-body, while Helina has comparatively tiny hole of some sort mid body - doesn't look like an exhaust. Any idea what that is ?

Used for initial launch

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Mar 2018 19:06

srin wrote:
srai wrote:
Probably be more like MBDA's Sea Venom -> 30kg warhead with 20Km range. Total weight 110 kg. IMO, it would be more in line with HELINA-ER, or SANT
Oh - I was thinking ship launched, not heli-launched. The description of #9 doesn't tell us much.

IMO, it makes more sense as a helo-launched light-weight ASM than a ship launched one. Capital ships would use larger SSMs.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 08 Mar 2018 19:29

shiv wrote:
JTull wrote:My guess,

Dhruvastra = Dhruv + Astra
Agree but "Astra" in this case = generic Astra not Astra AAM

of course. I meant Nag being the astra to equip the yantradhari (Dhruv or Rudra or LCH).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2018 20:25

nam wrote:What is Anvesha?

Is Rudra a general name for TD? Rudra-3 sanctioned without Rudra-2 completing? Before all that what is Rudra-1?

Its like Apple I.

Paper project.

John · Post by **John** » 08 Mar 2018 23:46

srai wrote:
srin wrote:
Oh - I was thinking ship launched, not heli-launched. The description of #9 doesn't tell us much.
IMO, it makes more sense as a helo-launched light-weight ASM than a ship launched one. Capital ships would use larger SSMs.

But navy was looking for smaller Ashm for vessels seemed to be a replacement for uran.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Mar 2018 00:19

The difference in the layout of the Nag and Helina has been discussed many times here. In both missiles the booster lies ahead of the sustainer. In Nag, the exhaust of the booster is carried out using the 4 mid-body nozzles. The sustainer has the typical layout. In Helina, the boosters exhaust is carried through sustainer using a blast-tube to the nozzle at the back. (I presume) the nozzle is discarded at the end of the booster burn and the sustainer takes over.

I don't know why Nag layout has continued even after the Helina system has been developed. If anybody knows the exact reason, please reply. We have heard all speculations already. It is not impingement of exhausts on neighboring things. The Helina layout was exactly designed for this purpose. Is booster burn on the Nag faster?

The SANT missile is very interesting. I had never seen a picture of this missile before. So credit to Prasun Sengupta for bringing this out. It does look to be larger than Helina. The wings are larger which are understandable. Obviously, the seeker is different. Prasun says it is currently TV-guided. Will be changed to MMW when that seeker becomes available. Well he got the image, so may be he has his sources. But I want to believe it is. But, I want to believe that it one of the MWIR, for which DRDO has been sending out tender after tender since 2014.

The other interesting part is the vehicle on which it is integrated in this picture. MoD said that they had done captive trials on Mi-35. This picture is not of a Mi-35. It is a remotely piloted vehicle which does not have a landing gear. And since it does not have a landing gear, this missile was most likely fired. This RPV is also very interesting. It is not Lakshya as we know it. Lakshya has a podded engine, whereas you can see the side air intakes of the this vehicle is clearly visible. The white part seems like JATO rockets. The intakes don't look like Chukar's either. Clearly this aircraft has mid-body or shoulder mounted wings. Most likely, the latter. So, this is not a Banshee either. which vehicle is this? Have they modified Lakshya under the wraps?

Added later: Okay, mystery solved: it is a Mirach 100/5. Which means SANT does not weight much more than 60 kgs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2018 00:35

IR, I recall a newspaper cutting of the mid 1980s about how RECW was working on a new propellant formulation based on magnesium powder instead of Aluminum for the IGMP missiles. I thought this was a project from HEMRL Pune as the director was a college graduate from mid 1970s.

So its possible this was the propellant being used in Nag.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2018 05:21

Indranil, We have reply in Twitter.
1) https://twitter.com/OmniCurious/status/ ... 12416?s=19

2)
https://twitter.com/OmniCurious/status/ ... 06080?s=19

3)
https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/9 ... 02880?s=19

Essentially they work as thrust diverters as they have on off capability to bring about top attack Cobra o r Nag maneuver.
I said then will be useful for ABM kill vehicle.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Mar 2018 06:31

Ah! Finally answer that makes sense. Would you please thank him for the reply. And ask him if the following sequence is correct (or ask him to look here one again

).

The missile is fired and the booster burns for just over a second. But just before the burnout, the differential thrust is used to change the direction of the missile and point it upwards for the climb phase of the pop-up maneuver. From here on the sustainer takes over which burns more slowly, but still manages to accelerate the missile. As the speed of the missile increases, the fins become more effective and can now be used for the rest of the maneuvers, like change direction again for descend onto the target. Because Helina is launched from an altitude, this is pop-up maneuver is not required. Correct?

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 09 Mar 2018 06:47

Indranil wrote:Because Helina is launched from an altitude, this is pop-up maneuver is not required. Correct?

What about tree-top level launches? I don't think its always from altitude.

srin · Post by **srin** » 09 Mar 2018 06:53

ramana wrote:Indranil, We have reply in Twitter.
1) https://twitter.com/OmniCurious/status/ ... 12416?s=19

2)
https://twitter.com/OmniCurious/status/ ... 06080?s=19

3)
https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/9 ... 02880?s=19

Essentially they work as thrust diverters as they have on off capability to bring about top attack Cobra o r Nag maneuver.
I said then will be useful for ABM kill vehicle.

Thank you, Ramana - now it makes sense.

I don't understand the on/off capability - presuming it is solid propellant powered, how do they switch on / off the thrusters (once for popup and once for the dive) ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2018 07:18

One more answer:

https://twitter.com/OmniCurious/status/ ... 77120?s=19

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2018 07:19

Guys can we have a few videos of last moments of Nag top attack maneuver?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Mar 2018 07:53

In that Helina poster above, I see the range as >7 Kms. That's very heartening.

We have always heard of tests being conducted at 7Km ranges though I recall a statement of an eventual range of 20 Kms made once.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Mar 2018 08:07

a fast jet launching the same helina from 15,000ft vs 5000ft and 3 times the speed (brimstone) could perhaps impart such ranges ?
i have not heard of a helicopter launched atgm of 20k range. its a niche use case of attacking vehicles well protected by portable air defences that helis cannot survive .....could be done with SFW type submunitions better maybe.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 09 Mar 2018 08:48

SSridhar wrote:In that Helina poster above, I see the range as >7 Kms. That's very heartening.

We have always heard of tests being conducted at 7Km ranges though I recall a statement of an eventual range of 20 Kms made once.

How will these IR guided, fire and forget, ATGMs have a lock on at such extreme ranges? Helina is LOBL.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Mar 2018 09:50

Sid wrote:
SSridhar wrote:In that Helina poster above, I see the range as >7 Kms. That's very heartening.

We have always heard of tests being conducted at 7Km ranges though I recall a statement of an eventual range of 20 Kms made once.
How will these IR guided, fire and forget, ATGMs have a lock on at such extreme ranges? Helina is LOBL.

LOAL was worked on. Not sure of the current status.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Mar 2018 11:04

pravula wrote:
Indranil wrote:Because Helina is launched from an altitude, this is pop-up maneuver is not required. Correct?
What about tree-top level launches? I don't think its always from altitude.

That's good for the videos. But why would you come close if you could stay 7 km away, have better sight and better kinematic energy.

srin wrote: I don't understand the on/off capability - presuming it is solid propellant powered, how do they switch on / off the thrusters (once for popup and once for the dive) ?

The motor is not turned on or off. There is a single motor, whose exhaust come out of 4 nozzles. When the exhaust is coming out of all 4, the resultant force passes through the CG and no moment is present. If you close off the exhaust through one or more nozzles, the resultant force no longer passes through the CG, and the moment can be used to change direction.

ramana wrote:One more answer:

https://twitter.com/OmniCurious/status/ ... 77120?s=19
The Cobra maneuver (starting /w a steep upwards ascent) happens when missile is pretty close to target; feat unlikely to succeed without 2 thrusters still functioning; they can burnout at top as not req 4 descent.
Nag boosters are supposed to provide 90+% of all momentum requird.

He has lost me now. The last sentence is true. But the booster provides that momentum using a very short burn. You can see the booster burnout and the maneuver in this video.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Mar 2018 11:39

I did not see any cobra manouver in this video it a parabolic trajectory with Dive & Top Attack.

Older Nag videos did show cobra like manouver but it never fly this his as the current video does.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Mar 2018 13:43

Livefist on twitter

DHRUVASTRA is actually @DRDO_India's twin-rail launcher for India's HELINA missile, as displayed last year.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/971967037722435585

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Mar 2018 14:28

@SJha1618
Mar 4
More
However, the focal plane array in 640 x 512 format is made of imported MWIR detectors. India, at the moment does not have a Mercury Cadmium Telluride 'fab' which can supply such detectors indigenously. It is time India invested in one.

@SJha1618
Mar 4
More
The new indigenous imaging infrared (IIR) seeker equipping the latest iteration of the Nag called the PROSPINA has peformed ' satisfactorily' according to DRDO in the final round of developmental trials.