India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 30 Nov 2011 20:40

rajanb wrote:
kelesis wrote:I don't know what is a big blow but considering the situation (Brazil, UAE, koweit etc... all failures or delays) it is far to be a good news. The best Dassault can hope is the tender to be cancel, the Swiss gov will not change his mind.

Regarding India, I really doubt Dassault and French gov have the ability to secure such a deal. How can you win a difficult competition where you are the outsider when you are not able to win competitions where you are the leading contender (or the sole contender)?

There are two sides to the coin here:

One side that it is bad for Dassault definitely. And the MoD and the rest are going to go with a fine tooth comb over Dassault's proposal. Getting such bad news from the UAE and the Swiss, if the reports are not DDMitis means there will be reluctance building here to go with the Dassault. Also, as a result of the M2K upg costs. Unless the M2K costs are to fund a lower price for the Rafale/ or some uber technology in the upg?. If we look at this side only then the Rafale is doomed not to win the MMRCA. But we have to remember that the loss has to do with the lack of sensitivity to potential customers during the sales cycle or economics or any political considerations. Nothing technical.

The other side of the coin, that the MoD will refer back to the IAF, and if the IAF still says ok to it as as asset, with additional riders in terms of deliverables, The MoD will after having shared their computation of costs with individual sellers, go for L1. If, and this is an assumed scenario, the Rafale is L1, and the MoD is uneasy, in view of Dassault losing, ask the vendors to rework the prices, with no changes to conditions. However, regardless of who is L1, I would think asking the vendors to give their "final and best price" is par for the course and would be a standard tender term. I have always seen that term in the tender as the right of the GOI to do. So we never bid the best price in any case. And if this has changed, then there is some cause for concern.

The good point about this is both, or the hungrier of the two will drop their trousers.

In life, all is fair in love and war and pricing to win a deal.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 30 Nov 2011 20:46

One thing that you are forgtetting is that the Typhoon also lost !!... And was rated inferior to the rafale as far as the technical evaluation is concerned.

The fact that switzerland which is not facing any threat goes for the cheapest albeit least capable airctaft can make sense in their own strategical context. That's a very different situation for India who would rather not make any compromise on performance. If rafale is eventually the L1 and is chosen Indians can be reassured that another airforce came to the conclusion that it was the best fighter.

So if you take some distance with the immediate emotions and acknowledge that swiss choice is "specific" due to its peacefull strategic context then I am sure that the rafale will grow as the best choice for the IAF.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 30 Nov 2011 20:48

Kelesis mate, the UAE and Brazil were heavily political sales.
One was a tender, the other an FMS type agreement and Koweït
is unrelated.
I wholy agree that it is not good news of course but not to your
opinion that it will not be cancelled although it should not IMHO.

As for India, the more difficulties the Rafale sales encounter, the
more GoI can extract from the situation.
Trust your negociators man : if they are any good, they can secure
an exceptional deal here ( if they want to, that is ).
What could the French govt do but abide in the present situation?

A contract is a contract and if the small print is well taken care of,
pretty much anything could be obtained.

Once again, this is not the Rafale/French govt's to lose as some
laughing semi-trolls would have it, they are in deep doo-poo;
it is for India to win which should be the main concern on BR,
should it not

Go India, go

Ed. huh sort of late acknowledgment of Rajanb's post, sorry

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 30 Nov 2011 20:49

And officially Brazil choice is still the rafale waiting for more money to fund the purchase.

manum · Post by **manum** » 30 Nov 2011 20:53

I am sure Mirage upgrade was exceptional bargain...We trust our negotiators, what about french negotiators? They are great at giving away ground in their own backyard...MMRCA not sure bro, economy is hard on India as well...

hoping for pragmatic decision...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Nov 2011 20:57

Is there a data anywhere to say in a competition where both typhoon and rafale contended neck to neck, and one of them won?

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 30 Nov 2011 21:02

rafale and typhoon competed against each other in :

korea
singapore
Neederlands
switzerland
India

It was rated above the typhoon in all these evaluations expect india where we have conflicting informations so no conclusion can be made now.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 30 Nov 2011 21:10

I don't know guys, but I remember my days when GOI would come up with such twists and turns that I got premature grey hair.

I hope, later, after the fat lady sings, we get to know which was T1.

But since both are in the shortlist, it doesn't really matter. It will be L1.

The other point of concern during selection is hopefully the MoD have ensured that vendors come clean i.e there are no hidden costs.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 30 Nov 2011 21:17

The Swiss imbroglio is far from over. The situation continues to be fluid. Certain facts are clear ; the Swiss air force ranked the Rafale as the best aircraft from the military viewpoint. The Gripen did not make the cut - was definitely below the barrier on operational characteristics. The EF was in between. Till this point, the picture is clear.

On the commercial offer, the data is blurred. At first glance, the Gripen appears to be the cheapest, but life-cycle costs do not appear have been finally calculated.

The Swiss decision-making process is also quite convoluted ; the Parliament is not obliged to follow or rubber-stamp the reported decision of the Federal Council. So, dear commentators, let's tarry a while.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 30 Nov 2011 21:22

Will it eventually be decided by drawing lots? Why so much indecision?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Nov 2011 21:25

arthuro wrote:rafale and typhoon competed against each other in :

korea
singapore
Neederlands
switzerland
~~India~~

It was rated above the typhoon in all these evaluations expect india where we have conflicting informations so no conclusion can be made now.

did these countries rate them based on 600 odd parameters that IAF did or something similar?

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 30 Nov 2011 21:39

From memory it was around 700 criteria for the dutch evaluation. I am looking for it

edit, I found it :

The multi-criteria analysis, in cooperation with TNO and Dutch Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space (NLR) was performed, was a time consuming exercise. First were 700 criteria that the new fighter had to comply. Then experts gave a figure for each criterion. The weighted average of the scores was an indication of the system effectiveness of any device - in plain English: how well the aircraft was.

In the Court Brief on the JSF decision of February 11, 2002 was the multi-criteria analysis in detail. The government stressed in the letter detailed the purity of the process. The operation of the Air Force was rated by an independent working group of the Ministry of Defense, wrote the government. It had ruled that "the candidates thoroughly and carefully review''was conducted.

The evaluation itself was not the House. The same was true for the so-called B / C paper, the results were described. Both documents contain confidential commercial information from aircraft manufacturers and are therefore confidential.

According to the Air Force, the uncertainties involved. In the multi-criteria analysis, as wrote the Air Force in the B / C paper, the uncertainties "adequately addressed".

In this analysis, some criteria are not one, but three scores out. The median score, the "expected performance" again. In addition, experts also had a top and a given value. After all values were added together, the multi-criteria analysis yielded three final scores on the system effectiveness.

The median score gave the Air Force how well the aircraft would be in 2010. The top score was the most optimistic expectations of the performance, the score was the worst case scenario. "This leads to more complete picture of system effectiveness with uncertainties, risks but also potential'', wrote the Air Force.

scores :
http://bruxelles2.over-blog.com/article-22711204.html

http://www.dedefensa.org/article.php?art_id=84

"A surprising and important detail had been made public: the technological and operational evaluation by the RNAF of the three candidates. According to the RNAF criteria, the JSF had been graded 6.97; the Rafale, 6.95; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, 5.85. "

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 30 Nov 2011 21:51

Then the swiss evaluation is reckognized as being one of the most rigorous one. The integrity of the process was well edvertise by the swiss airforce. And in terms of rigor and precision you can trust the swiss !!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Nov 2011 21:54

how many planes do the swiss plan to buy?

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 30 Nov 2011 21:59

the swiss plan to buy 22 aircrafts.

The press conference confirms that the gripen was considered as sufficient for swiss needs despite being less capable than rafale and typhoon. Here is a summary of the press conference officializing the gripen choice from another poster who could watch it :

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/30625084

This guy is arguing that the Gripen is enough for the Swiss needs. Eurofighter and the Rafale might be better machines, but the Gripen will be enough for what the Swiss need.

Golf instead of a Ferrari. Kinda true.
When was the last time the Swiss had to fight a war? Gripen will do fine for them, IF this decision is final and nobody appeals to some higher body...if there is one.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Nov 2011 22:10

>> 22 aircrafts.

thats just 1 squadron and a few attrition reserve. hardly the kind of deal to shiver about...one way or another.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 30 Nov 2011 22:18

indeed but the technical evaluation is interesting as the Typhoon and rafale are also opposed in India;

akula · Post by **akula** » 30 Nov 2011 23:07

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/11/gr ... witterfeed

quote from the above link:-
A Swiss newspaper Tagesanzeiger has reported that Switzerland has chosen the Saab Gripen as its next fighter, beating the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon in a three-year battle to replace its Northrop F-5s

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 30 Nov 2011 23:21

Whichever aircraft wins the the MMRCA competition, I am quite sure that the IAF will end up operating more then 200 of it by 2025.

It has been claimed that the MMRCA is meant to replace the MiG-21 in service, now on their last legs. Yes the MiG-21 needs urgent replacement. But replacement with Rafale's or EF Typhoon's? Are you serious? If the IAF was looking just for a replacement for the MiG-21's the Saab Gripen or the F-16 would have been enough. Or they could have fast tracked the LCA, which is even in it's current form much superior to what the MiG-21 offers.

I think that the IAF wants 40 to 50 percent of their figher aircraft inventory to be state of the art, medium multi-role combat aircraft. This is the sweet spot for fighter aircraft.

This is also the reason they don't want to buy large numbers of LCA's yet. Because if the IAF did order large numbers of LCA Mk I now, then the GoI would not provide them with additional funds to purchase MMRCA, the GoI would simply argue that the IAF already has the necessary numbers/squadrons. So the IAF will wait till GoI finally seals the MMRCA deal before they order the LCA in large numbers. The LCA is the real replacement for the MiG-21.

In the current threat situation for India (a coordinated Chinese and Packee attack) the IAF needs at least 300 high-end fighters in the medium class.

The AMCA won't come before 2030 and the PAK-FA too will not be a mature platform before 2025. Besides the PAK-FA has a different role then the MMRCA, instead of being competitors they complement each other.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Nov 2011 23:24

One has to consider political aspects as well to Swiss decisions. Swiss will never to go war with anyone.. it is a declared neutral state. it's decision perhaps only to help Swedish friends.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 01 Dec 2011 00:29

Rafale is going to be the biggest looser in the end. I'm just getting this feeling that after being eliminated from switzerland. they won't win brazil and offcourse not India. french can keep their pride to themselves. Let see how dassault survives this downturn.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 01:18

Again Typhoon was eliminated to so where is the problem ? And the rafale was the best performer in the technical evaluation which is encouraging.

There is nothing Dassault or Eurofighter gmbh can do when eventually the swiss decide to go for the cheapest option despite the more modest operational performance. That has nothing to do with negotiation, offsets or the quality of the aircraft etc...

It is just that the swiss decided that given the low threat environment around them the gripen will be "enough" to succeed their F5 tiger fleet.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Dec 2011 02:37

Taygibay wrote:

This being said, there are very important aspects to this news.
One, the Gripen is the most logical economic choice.
Two, the Gripen is the least logical military choice.
Three, the cooperation basis is better with the Gripen* but do remember
that it concerns the C/D version not the NG.
The proposition goes for the later upgrade to NG electronics/EWS type.
It does not include a full NG type conversion as the cells would not bear it.
Last, the present buy should be followed by the acquisition of more planes
to replace the F-18s in addition to the F-5s.

If it is confirmed and not challenged, the choice is very coherent to the
economic situation and supported by Ruag's links to the Swedish AC.
I personally also think that it would be sufficient to cover the relatively
small needs of the Swiss defence environment.

In any case, this is not a big blow except politically for Sarkozy.
The Swiss tender was reported at lenght on BR but neither Dassault nor
Eurofighter had put all that much on it. MMRCA is still as most here agree
THE most important acquisition program for fighters in the world at present.

Just for fun, can someone tell me which is the second most valuable upcoming
mili planes tender? Hint, it is on the American continent

I don't agree with your assesment. India is a different case- there is a genuine threat from PAF and PLAAF which requires a larger twin engined airplane that has growth potential and so the Typhoon and Rafale are required. But for Switzerland, a country with such a narrow airspace corridor, the Typhoon and Rafale were both overkill.

The Gripen NG being inferior to the F/A-18 C/D is nonsense- maybe for one particular interception mission where the F/A-18 C/D might have done better due to better acceleration figures, the NG offers a big leap forward over the F/A-18 C/D, especially in avionics and to some degree in weapons capability (Meteor for instance). With the ES-05A Raven and the Skyward-G IRST, new electro-optical missile launch warning sensor, towed decoy, satcom and HMDS, the NG is far superior to the F/A-18 that the Swiss currently operate.

Look at Switzerland's history- what do you suppose they need their jets for? To prevent intrusions and intercept airliners and small planes. They don't operate outside of their borders except for exercises or training, they are not a part of NATO, so a highly capable strike jet is not what they needed. The capability offered by the NG or even the C/D in this regard is enough for the forseeable future for them. You yourself suggest that the needs of the Swiss AF are actually relatively small. So, a Rafale or Typhoon are overkill by a big margin. Saab screwed up their Austrian offer, otherwise it was a far better fit for them than the Tranche 1 Typhoons they have that fly with IRIS-Ts alone, look good in photo ops and basically intercept large airliners and small private planes.

Cost is a big factor and IMO, they've made the absolute right choice. Only question I had when I read this was- when it does come to the time to replace their F/A-18s, the Gripen NG may not be in production- not unless a Brazilian order is won. Or maybe they could do a very deep upgrade on existing stored Gripen A/B's of the Flygvapnet and purchase those.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 01 Dec 2011 02:44

The Gripen NG being inferior to the F/A-18 C/D is nonsense-

Except that the AC is the Gripen C/D, Kartik, not the NG.

My assesment was that

the choice is very coherent to the
economic situation and supported by Ruag's links to the Swedish AC.
I personally also think that it would be sufficient to cover the relatively
small needs of the Swiss defence environment.

... and

One, the Gripen is the most logical economic choice.

About the same as yours so maybe you misread?

And no, a Gripen C/D cannot be turned into an NG.
The engine and radar yes, not the cell.

Good day all, Tay.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 01 Dec 2011 02:44

http://hugin.info/143388/R/1567967/487243.pdf

Latest news.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Dec 2011 02:51

arthuro wrote:One thing that you are forgtetting is that the Typhoon also lost !!... And was rated inferior to the rafale as far as the technical evaluation is concerned.

The fact that switzerland which is not facing any threat goes for the cheapest albeit least capable airctaft can make sense in their own strategical context. That's a very different situation for India who would rather not make any compromise on performance. If rafale is eventually the L1 and is chosen Indians can be reassured that another airforce came to the conclusion that it was the best fighter.

So if you take some distance with the immediate emotions and acknowledge that swiss choice is "specific" due to its peacefull strategic context then I am sure that the rafale will grow as the best choice for the IAF.

The Mirage-2000 deal's cost has really soured the image of Dassault beyond belief on BRF and other Indian forums. So while I totally agree with what you're saying and really believe that the Rafale is the best match for the IAF, not sure about convincing others.

Arthuro, there was a French media report (a video) that was posted on Keypubs that gave the cost of the Typhoon as $100 million and that of the Rafale as being $150 million..what's the reason behind the higher price being quoted there?

Not that it matters now- the price of the 22 Gripen NGs is around $3.29 billion as per some report. Works out to a unit price of $149.5 million for each Gripen NG, although it surely is for a package deal and not a unit flyaway cost.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Dec 2011 02:54

Taygibay wrote:
The Gripen NG being inferior to the F/A-18 C/D is nonsense-
Except that the AC is the Gripen C/D, Kartik, not the NG.

that was the aircraft that was evaluated, but the delay in the tender meant that Saab offered the NG instead. And they are going for the NG (call it E/F if you want), not the C/D. So, there is really no question of the Gripen being inferior to the F/A-18 C/D. The issues discussed such as range, loiter time and flight performance will be significantly better for the Gripen NG than the C/D.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 01 Dec 2011 02:57

The NG is not yet confirmed for production, sorry mate.
The prospective development yes but not the AC itself as of now.

Next the MS21 (Gripen E/F) project is to begin circa 2015, depending on the needs of a possible foreign partner.[39]

22 ACs won't cut it.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 03:11

The swiss airforce is unhappy with the choice of the politics and clearly wants the rafale :

The Helvetic Confederation prefer the Gripen for reasons of price ... against the advice of military

Decidedly, the Rafale has no chance. Switzerland has announced it would buy 22 Swedish Gripen fighter aircraft to replace its old F-5. The Gripen was in competition with the Rafale and the Eurofighter.

With France, the negotiations seemed well under way, however, to the point that it was envisaged that not only the Swiss pilot form in France but they can use our airspace, from the base of Luxeuil. They would have used the same aircraft as the Air Force (standard F3), without requiring new developments.

Fernand Carrel, the commander of the Swiss Air Force, regretted the choice of the Federal Council. "All experts know that the Rafale is the best," he said on Radio Suisse Romande.

The Swiss authorities have explained that "financial arguments have played a decisive role in choosing the type of aircraft." Clearly, the Gripen is much cheaper than its competitors from the euro area. The contract is worth 2.58 billion euros (3.1 billion Swiss francs), or 117 million per plane. Rafale and Eurofighter were therefore more expensive.
Dassault Rafale and the team has "regretted that the Swiss Federal Council has" deliberately decided not to position Switzerland at the highest European level as regards the performance of new combat aircraft. "The capabilities of the Rafale would allow the Helvetic Confederation to acquire a smaller number of aircraft to meet operational requirements, at a cost equivalent to or less as shown by assessments of Swiss Air Force. "

This announcement is not expected to help relax the negotiations with the UAE - who want to acquire 60 combat aircraft. As they have informed the French authorities, they find the price too high, around 20%. A "non-competitive offers," according to the Emirati authorities. The CEO of Dassault-Aviation was recently recognized at a conference organized by the Ministry of Defence: "If instead of the euro symbol, there was strong dollar, we would be competitive in price." The contract with the UAE is estimated at around 9 billion euros.
After the mishaps in Brazil, the French aircraft industry was counting on this contract the first Swiss to score a point for export. Remains in contention in the Indian market, and of course

http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefen ... _a440.html

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 03:18

switzerland, Armasuisse officialy ranks the Rafale first

A few days before switzerland makes its final choice, the main operational results of the Armasuisse evaluation have been released.

Armasuisse made a first evaluation of the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter in 2008. Several Air to Air and Air to Ground trials were performed by the 3 contenders, in Switzerland, in order to assess their relative efficiency in different roles.
A second Evaluation was done between March and August 2009 to take into account the upgrades and improvements of the 3 fighters in their "2015 form". This evaluation was based on data provided by the manufacturers or simulated flights. This final Armasuisse report, with updated rankings was released in November 2009 and is recommending the Rafale for the Swiss Air Force (confirming the rumors heard during the last 2 years).

In this report, each capability is ranked on 9 points, 6 points being the minimum score to meet the Swiss Air Force requirement (We understand that te 6 points benchmark would be the F/A-18C score)

Air superiority ranking, rafale first :

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Dec 2011 03:26

So it was a non-military decision by the Swiss against the Rafale.

Looks like Acharya is right. There are wheels within wheels in the a/c buys.

Anyway Swiss were replacing their F-5s only and they hardly have a threat. Even they find the rafale is better than the others.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 03:44

A summary made on the swiss technical evaluation :

Switzerland, Armasuisse officialy ranks the Rafale first

A few days before switzerland makes its final choice, the main operational results of the Armasuisse evaluation have been released.

Armasuisse made a first evaluation of the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter in 2008. Several Air to Air and Air to Ground trials were performed by the 3 contenders, in Switzerland, in order to assess their relative efficiency in different roles.

A second Evaluation was done between March and August 2009 to take into account the upgrades and improvements of the 3 fighters in their "2015 form". This evaluation was based on data provided by the manufacturers or simulated flights. This final Armasuisse report, with updated rankings was released in November 2009 and is recommending the Rafale for the Swiss Air Force (confirming the rumors heard during the last 2 years).

In this report, each capability is ranked on 9 points, 6 points being the minimum score to meet the Swiss Air Force requirement (We understand that te 6 points benchmark would be the F/A-18C score)

©Basler Zeitung November 30, 2011
Basler Zeitung has published the scores for 2 main mission types (see above) : Air defense and Ground attack mission. The green scores refers to the 2008 evalaluation while the red scores refers to the final 2009 evaluation including 2015 improvements.
The Rafale is ranked first with 7.28 and 7.41 points,
The Eurofighter second with 6.49 and 6.54 points,
The Gripen is third with 5.68 and 5.62 points. Therefore it does not manage to pass the threshold of 6 points.

Various quotes from the report :

"Rafale and Eurofighter showed generally better performance than the F/A-18, Gripen worse"

"The performance of the Gripen in air-air engagements as well as attack missions was insufficient"

"The most limiting factors of the Gripen design were the operating time, the flight performance and the maximum weapon load"

"The Rafale is the only aircraft that has met the requirements of the Air Force in all types of applications"

So the report is quite clear regarding the capabilities of the 3 aircrafts:

1- The Rafale is the best technical performer and thus recommended as the Tiger replacement.
2- The Rafale was ranked above the Eurofighter in both Air defense and ground attack missions.
3- The Gripen has serious weaknesses and is considered as a step back compared to the F/A-18 operated by the Swiss Air Force.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Dec 2011 04:02

arthuro wrote:
switzerland, Armasuisse officialy ranks the Rafale first

A few days before switzerland makes its final choice, the main operational results of the Armasuisse evaluation have been released.

Armasuisse made a first evaluation of the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter in 2008. Several Air to Air and Air to Ground trials were performed by the 3 contenders, in Switzerland, in order to assess their relative efficiency in different roles.
A second Evaluation was done between March and August 2009 to take into account the upgrades and improvements of the 3 fighters in their "2015 form". This evaluation was based on data provided by the manufacturers or simulated flights. This final Armasuisse report, with updated rankings was released in November 2009 and is recommending the Rafale for the Swiss Air Force (confirming the rumors heard during the last 2 years).

In this report, each capability is ranked on 9 points, 6 points being the minimum score to meet the Swiss Air Force requirement (We understand that te 6 points benchmark would be the F/A-18C score)
Air superiority ranking, rafale first :

Thanks to the fact that the Rafale B01 demonstrated the RBE-2 AESA radar whereas the Typhoon demonstrated the mechanically scanned array Captor radar. Had the Typhoon been one with the repositioner equipped Captor-E AESA radar, the results wouldn't have shown the Rafale being superior in air-to-air combat.

There is no doubt that the Rafale is more mature than the Typhoon, but potential wise, there isn't much that separates them.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 04:13

Kartik,

The second phase of the evaluation is updated with the typhoon AESA and gripen NG. Basically as the first delivery was postponed in 2015 they updated the technical evaluation with the characteristics of the three aircrafts so your argument doesn't stand.

A second Evaluation was done between March and August 2009 to take into account the upgrades and improvements of the 3 fighters in their "2015 form". This evaluation was based on data provided by the manufacturers or simulated flights. This final Armasuisse report, with updated rankings was released in November 2009 and is recommending the Rafale for the Swiss Air Force (confirming the rumors heard during the last 2 years).

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Dec 2011 04:53

arthuro wrote:Kartik,

The second phase of the evaluation is updated with the typhoon AESA and gripen NG. Basically as the first delivery was postponed in 2015 they updated the technical evaluation with the characteristics of the three aircrafts so your argument doesn't stand.

A second Evaluation was done between March and August 2009 to take into account the upgrades and improvements of the 3 fighters in their "2015 form". This evaluation was based on data provided by the manufacturers or simulated flights. This final Armasuisse report, with updated rankings was released in November 2009 and is recommending the Rafale for the Swiss Air Force (confirming the rumors heard during the last 2 years).

The second evaluation was in 2009- 2 years ago. Neither was the Typhoon repositioner Captor-E available to the evaluators to evaluate nor was the Gripen's Raven ES-05A available, since it hadn't been developed or flown aboard the Demo aircraft by then.

Phase two of the flight test program

After a modification period, phase two of the flight test program began on 27th October 2009. As mentioned earlier, the main focus of the second phase was to test and verify the functionality of the tactical systems. During that phase an AESA radar, a Missile Approach Warning System, and a SATCOM system was integrated and tested with excellent results. Apart from that, flight tests with a new, larger drop tank were performed with equally good results. In total, 73 flights were performed during the second phase, including international ferry flights and flight tests during hot and high conditions.

Next step is to fly the first avionics test bed. It will take to the air early this year and include flight tests of the new avionic system including the AESA radar ES-05 Raven. The new avionic system will have an architecture where flight critical and non-flight critical functionality is separated which in turn will facilitate for faster implementations of new functionality and capabilities.

IMO, to suggest that a Typhoon with a Captor-E AESA radar and AMRAAM will be only 0.5 points better than the F/A-18 C/D with the AMRAAM sounds bogus.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Dec 2011 04:59

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login ... ision=-203

The game changer would be GaN, and should that happen by 2013-15 time frame.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Dec 2011 05:08

V, v, interesting report posted by Arthuro, thank you indeed. So the Rafale is tops A2A as well - amazing! (Or not). As Kartik has pointed out, perhaps/arguably the Captor E was not taken into consideration but still, this might mean that the RBE-2 AESA clearly tops the Captor-M, which many have touted as simply the most fantastic mech FCR around with "tracking" ranges for 5-8msq targets around the 160-180km mark! Detection might then be around 250+km for the Captor M, which evidently the RBE 2 surpasses.

I realize this is rather simplistic logic but it is substantiated by the ATLC/Corsica DACT results as well. There is something special about the Rafale A2A, and its not the teeny radar

CM

Danell · Post by **Danell** » 01 Dec 2011 05:23

Kartik wrote:[...]

IMO, to suggest that a Typhoon with a Captor-E AESA radar and AMRAAM will be only 0.5 points better than the F/A-18 C/D with the AMRAAM sounds bogus.

Over Switzerland and its 40000 km2 ?, it doesn't sound bogus at all for me , never forget this is a Swiss evaluation made by the Swiss air Force for its own missions and adapted to Switzerland 's characteristics. These results are interesting but are not directly applicable to another environment like India i think.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 Dec 2011 05:40

Singha wrote:Acharya, will the indian oligarchs based in london be a facilitator for bringing India inside the tent?

I will answer in detail later and in GDF. But indian oligarchs based in london were working the AS global oligarchs and now some of them have returned to the Indian fold. But there is going to be tectonic shift. I have not visited London and refuse to.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Dec 2011 05:45

^ perhaps it was the AMRAAM that made the Tiffy look somewhat ordinary in the A2A dept? If it was the C5 that was used, can see the radar advantage diminishing a bit. Also, iirc Swiss F-18s were made rather capable after inhouse upgrades, wiki states that another MLU is to take place, which might mean that the comparison was vs. a properly upgraded F-18C.

I took a deeper look at the SwAF UPG25 prog. for its 33 hornets, and the main improvements were for A2A - it has the JHMCS/Aim9X combo plus the same EW suite as the Shornet plus the ATFLIR.

My guess is that since the Swiss have v.small airspace along with mountain terrain, it could well be that their AF focuses on WVR combat where the advantages offered by super radar performance in BVR combat are somewhat nullified. Low and slow, the Hornet with a JHMCS/Aim 9X combo would be a PITA for most birds including the TIffy.

THe Rafale otoh, is supposedly quite amazing below 30K feet, so perhaps the SwAF eval reflects this and provides the perfect foil for the Rafale to strut its stuff.