VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Jul 2020 20:28

nam: Hammer was among the weapons that was optioned for, to use aboard the Rafale.

Now with the ongoing border situation, that option is being exercised. Please see below (from 2017).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Jul 2020 21:36

This ad hoc buys irk me. Hammer is one of the most expensive A2G munitions there exists on this planet. And by a BIG BIG margin.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Jul 2020 21:43

Indranil wrote:This ad hoc buys irk me. Hammer is one of the most expensive A2G munitions there exists on this planet. And by a BIG BIG margin.

Every add-on purchase is pointing towards additional Rafales in the long term. I doubt the IAF would spend its meagre CAPEX on this purchase otherwise. And you are correct. The Hammer is one expensive munition. From wiki chacha....

According to French Senate's Comité des Prix de Revient des fabrications d'Armement (CPRA) cited by the daily La Tribune, the total cost of the AASM program including development costs and the delivery of 2348 kits is €846 million. On that basis the per-weapon cost is $300,000 or twelve times the cost of the comparable American JDAM, although the latter has been manufactured in much larger quantities (~250,000 kits) and would be reasonable to expect a drastic reduction of the price of the French munition if larger contracts are signed and economies of scale are achieved. The 2012 defence budget presented to the Senate reported the project had cost €592.2m (~US $800 m) with a unit cost of €164,000, or €252,000 including development costs.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 23 Jul 2020 21:50

They didn't draw the line on the cost like the USAF did with the JDAM. The cost was a strong requirement because of the need to buy at scale. So the powered version will naturally be more expensive. The USAF/USN just split that requirement between two programs. JDAM on the lower end, and the JSOW (which always had a powered version in its roadmap) at the higher end which was tasked with more efficient networked strikes at longer ranges (turbojet). There's also the powered JDAM which would naturally be more expensive than the standard JDAM but with the availability of the powered JSOW it will likely not see much enthusiasm unless it comes in a lot cheaper.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Jul 2020 21:54

IAF eyes new smart weapon for Rafale jets amid border row
https://southasiansnews.com/2020/07/23/ ... ndia-news/
23 July 2020

The Hammer, consisting of a guidance kit and a range extension kit fitted on a standard bomb of the Mk80 series, is manufactured by French defence firm Safran. The Hammer purchase will necessitate the import of Mk80 series bombs that can later be manufactured in India, said a second official.

While India initiated discussions with France to buy Hammer two to three years ago, the current border tensions with China have lent fresh urgency to the procurement, said a third official. “Enhancement of capability, especially under the present circumstances, will serve the IAF well. Efforts should be made to fast-track the purchase,” said Air Chief Marshal Fali H Major (retd), a former IAF chief.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 23 Jul 2020 22:16

*facepalm*
We have to import the Iron bombs too?!
Ironic that we just achieved criticality on a desi 3+ gen Nuke reactor that can power over 7 Lakh homes.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Jul 2020 23:07

Mysterious are the ways of the Babu.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 23 Jul 2020 23:27

MeshaVishwas wrote:*facepalm*
We have to import the Iron bombs too?!
Ironic that we just achieved criticality on a desi 3+ gen Nuke reactor that can power over 7 Lakh homes.

Defence acquisitions need a reform. The services must be forced to take domestic manufacturers and the government must fund private players to make in India. Private companies need capital and is understandable when people object to public funds to private entities, but this is a matter of national defence and security.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Jul 2020 23:28

It would be insane not to dump the MRCA-II and buy more Rafales at this point. All these gold plated expensive munitions like AASM and SCALP can only be utilized on the Rafale. It would be downright criminal to buy another new fighter and have to buy separate PGM's for that. As it is our ability to integrate current and future indigenous PGM's on these foreign platforms is limited (except for the MKI).

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Jul 2020 23:53

I wonder what is the target which requires a super expensive gold platted air dropped A2G at 100-200KM? Given the low numbers been bought, hope those targets are worth hitting.

The french have been hitting Libyan tanks at 55KM with this uber weapon.

Why is it better than a 200KM desi BM, which is probably going to be cheaper than this TFTA weapon?

I wondered if IAF had bothered asking DRDO to built a rocket powered missile with Brahmos seeker and put in on Su30?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 24 Jul 2020 00:04

nachiket wrote:It would be insane not to dump the MRCA-II and buy more Rafales at this point. All these gold plated expensive munitions like AASM and SCALP can only be utilized on the Rafale. It would be downright criminal to buy another new fighter and have to buy separate PGM's for that. As it is our ability to integrate current and future indigenous PGM's on these foreign platforms is limited (except for the MKI).

True

But I think the central issue here is cost. To achieve anywhere close to 42 in squadron strength, the IAF would need to procure at least 6 squadrons. The two squadrons we have procured have cost us north of 7 billion and a further 72 would mean another 14 billion and I just don't see how we can afford that right now.

Perhaps the MRCA is a means to drive a hard bargain, but I'm really not convinced this is the right way to do that

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jul 2020 00:11

Actually Nihat, an additional two squadrons will come to around US $5+ billion, perhaps $6...but not more than that.

There is no money for 6 phoren squadrons. That is not going to happen. The IAF will be forced to do a re look at this entire purchase. And as Angad Singh says, by the time MMRCA is finalized, Tejas Mk2 will be on the verge of being inducted. At that point, what is the need for phoren aircraft?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Jul 2020 00:14

I wasn't talking about a further 72, but only a further 36. And such a follow on order will not cost the same as the original one. The original acquisition cost included one time costs of setting up maintenance infrastructure, initial training of pilots and maintenance technicians in France etc. You would be leveraging that sunk cost if 2 more squadrons are bought.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Jul 2020 00:19

Well IAF seems to love French equipment since time of Kargil. Recall MRCA in its oldest avatar was just buy 126 Mirage 2000. Even during Balakot we see IAF's love affair with French birds although weaponry used was Israel's Spice.

Some of Rafale's weaponry can be integrated with Tejas MK1A and MK2 versions.

Just buy 2-3 more squadrons of Rafale F4, upgrade our existing contracted ones to F4 standard and then close this chapter of imports.

In future the minimum IAF should agree in principle that it will always be an Indian platform. Some select equipment can bought from a friendly nation eventually to be replaced by our own.

basant · Post by **basant** » 24 Jul 2020 00:22

^^^
May be Meteor for LCA can be linked to further orders.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jul 2020 00:22

The only option in large numbers (triple digits) of phoren MMRCA is the MiG-35 and Su-35.

Does the IAF want them, with their present sensor fit? I doubt it.

All the other aircraft - incl Rafale - in triple digits is unaffordable.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jul 2020 00:23

basant wrote:^^^
May be Meteor for LCA can be linked to further orders.

That will happen when Astra Mk2 comes onto the scene.

basant · Post by **basant** » 24 Jul 2020 00:31

Rakesh wrote:
basant wrote:^^^
May be Meteor for LCA can be linked to further orders.
That will happen when Astra Mk2 comes onto the scene.

This is above mere economics and competition. Astra will take time (even Mk1 is yet to be integrated to Tejas), but the current situation may prompt the Western nations to allow arming India better. China is becoming a nuisance state and we are seeing a slow but steady strengthening of resolve in powers across to get together.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Jul 2020 00:51

Rakesh wrote:
Indranil wrote:This ad hoc buys irk me. Hammer is one of the most expensive A2G munitions there exists on this planet. And by a BIG BIG margin.
Every add-on purchase is pointing towards additional Rafales in the long term. I doubt the IAF would spend its meagre CAPEX on this purchase otherwise. And you are correct. The Hammer is one expensive munition. From wiki chacha....

According to French Senate's Comité des Prix de Revient des fabrications d'Armement (CPRA) cited by the daily La Tribune, the total cost of the AASM program including development costs and the delivery of 2348 kits is €846 million. On that basis the per-weapon cost is $300,000 or twelve times the cost of the comparable American JDAM, although the latter has been manufactured in much larger quantities (~250,000 kits) and would be reasonable to expect a drastic reduction of the price of the French munition if larger contracts are signed and economies of scale are achieved. The 2012 defence budget presented to the Senate reported the project had cost €592.2m (~US $800 m) with a unit cost of €164,000, or €252,000 including development costs.

With 600Cr budget for emergency budget, they will not be able to buy more than a meagre 200-300 bombs (each Rafale can carry 6).

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 24 Jul 2020 01:08

Well... hope people remain mindful of the mindsets of our ancestors. Otherwise Asia mein mar-peeth phir se chalu ho jayenga. May be fun to have a good exposure like this.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 24 Jul 2020 01:12

We should've bought f-21s and jdams.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jul 2020 01:14

basant wrote:
Rakesh wrote: That will happen when Astra Mk2 comes onto the scene.
This is above mere economics and competition. Astra will take time (even Mk1 is yet to be integrated to Tejas), but the current situation may prompt the Western nations to allow arming India better. China is becoming a nuisance state and we are seeing a slow but steady strengthening of resolve in powers across to get together.

For the GOI it will be an opportunity of the strengthening of resolve. For the IAF, it will come down to the cost.

If Astra Mk2 and SFDR can do what Meteor does, then why would the IAF buy even more Meteor BVRAAMs? That is not to say that the IAF will not buy additional Meteor missiles beyond the current batch, but if the IAF can get a greater quantity of BVRAAMs (with similar capability) for cheaper then obviously the purchases will be geared towards more local versus phoren.

The Astra will get integrated onto the Tejas, that will happen. As it stands today, MBDA is refusing to integrate the Meteor onto the Tejas Mk1A because of the Elta AESA radar. So the only choice is Astra Mk1 and Mk2, apart from the Israeli counterparts. MBDA is open to integrating the Meteor with the Uttam AESA though. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the end goal must be Indian missiles on Indian and phoren planes and not the other way around. And Thales is open to Astra Mk2 and BrahMos NG integration on the Rafale.

* Why Meteor when Astra Mk2 will work?
* Why Hammer when a local variant will work? [Is that SAAW? Just asking, I am not sure]
* Why SCALP when BrahMos NG will work?

The former are great, but they are boutique and have a cost that reflects that. The more Indian weaponry that can be incorporated onto the Rafale, the better.

basant · Post by **basant** » 24 Jul 2020 01:26

Admiral, I agree with you. I-Derby ER would help in immediate future. I too would love to see Astra arming all our fighters, please don't get me wrong.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jul 2020 01:29

Does anyone know what is the Indian equivalent of the Hammer?

Is there such a local system?

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 24 Jul 2020 01:35

Rakesh wrote:Does anyone know what is the Indian equivalent of the Hammer?

Is there such a local system?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/glide-bomb
INS guided but
Article link:
https://theprint.in/defence/what-is-drd ... ty/242066/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2020 13:15

Rakesh wrote:Does anyone know what is the Indian equivalent of the Hammer?

Is there such a local system?

Yes. The speciality is GPS/INS with optical seeker.

DRDO has PGHSLD which has similar guidance with same accuracy

viewtopic.php?p=2300993#p2300993

Note how many trials were done? Just three.

And the Mk80 is a small high explosive bomb. Why do you need precision guidance for a HE bomb!
The third official who glibly said they can make the bomb is a jerk. He probably is getting kickback.

TushS · Post by **TushS** » 24 Jul 2020 13:19

LakshmanPST wrote:Slightly OT, but I don't like the way they're hyping up Rafale arrival, as if half a dozen Rafales will destroy the entire PAF and PLAAF overnight...

Forget fighting in a war, tomorrow even if some small technical glitch comes in the jet, the opposition & media will magnify it beyond proportions to create a picture that India got sub-standard jets for kickbacks...
I feel jingos (mainly Jingo journos) on social media (not here) need to tone down their excitement... Those jets are just silver bullets, nothing more nothing less...

Nuclear weapons are silver bullets too, they have paused major wars since 1945. So it's all about chest thumping, showing might to avoid wars (and prepare for it altogether). Rafale will do it too.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2020 13:23

Rakesh wrote:
Indranil wrote:This ad hoc buys irk me. Hammer is one of the most expensive A2G munitions there exists on this planet. And by a BIG BIG margin.
Every add-on purchase is pointing towards additional Rafales in the long term. I doubt the IAF would spend its meagre CAPEX on this purchase otherwise. And you are correct. The Hammer is one expensive munition. From wiki chacha....

According to French Senate's Comité des Prix de Revient des fabrications d'Armement (CPRA) cited by the daily La Tribune, the total cost of the AASM program including development costs and the delivery of 2348 kits is €846 million. On that basis the per-weapon cost is $300,000 or twelve times the cost of the comparable American JDAM, although the latter has been manufactured in much larger quantities (~250,000 kits) and would be reasonable to expect a drastic reduction of the price of the French munition if larger contracts are signed and economies of scale are achieved. The 2012 defence budget presented to the Senate reported the project had cost €592.2m (~US $800 m) with a unit cost of €164,000, or €252,000 including development costs.

That's wrong comparison. JDAM has only GPS/INS kit. HAMMER has extra optical seeker.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2020 13:39

Tales, SAW is the total 125kg weapon. HAMMER is a series of weapons per wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armemen ... _Modulaire

The press report referred to Mk80 bomb which is 250 lbs or 125 kg.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2020 13:44

If this is what was bought IAF needs to be held accountable for buying what's available.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Jul 2020 14:00

Hammer missiles comes in 3 configurations:

Basic: INS + GPS

Advanced 1: INS + GPA + IIR Seeker

Advanced 2: INS + GPS + Laser Guidance

From the manufacturer:
https://www.safran-electronics-defense. ... siles/aasm

Usable from greater and greater safety distances, with unrivaled ease of use, the air-to-ground modular weapon (AASM) "Hammer", developed by Safran Electronics & Defense, enables extremely accurate strikes. The AASM is an autonomous unjammable interoperable modular device which utilizes leverages a range of guidance kits (INS/GPS, INS/GPS/Infrared and INS/GPS/Laser). The AASM has been tested in numerous recent theaters and delivers an excellent cost/effectiveness ratio.

Also, is this piece of news confirmed from MoD or IAF or its just fertile imagination or wish list of some news media (DDM).

When we already have SPICE munition from Rafael why add this unnecessarily expensive french munition ?

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 24 Jul 2020 14:22

Sumeet wrote: When we already have SPICE munition from Rafael why add this unnecessarily expensive french munition ?

Saar, the Brochure had a HD+ image.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Jul 2020 14:44

IIRC AASM Hammer has only 250 and 500 lb versions in service, I'm yet to see any pics of 1000/2000 lb being carried by Rafale (plenty of mock ups on trade shows though).

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jul 2020 15:52

Sumeet wrote:When we already have SPICE munition from Rafael why add this unnecessarily expensive french munition ?

My guess- the IAF originally had no intention of ordering the AASM. They must've felt that the SPICE bombs did the job at a far more affordable price point. SPICE would have been integrated with the Rafale as part of the ISE package, since the Rafale doesn't carry SPICE in any other Air Force's service.

But, given that the IAF Rafales with the ISE are not yet developed (or their software certified), the Rafales entering service now would be limited to only what munitions they are already certified for. Which meant that if they needed to be employed within this year, they'd be limited to carrying SCALP, LGBs and dumb bombs and nothing else. They had no SPICE equivalent apart from the AASM on the Rafale.

Rafale range of weapons

Given how expensive the AASM is (approx. Euro 80,000 or Rs 69.5 lakhs each), I'd expect at most a couple hundred AASM kits will be imported under the emergency provision. Just FYI, Egypt had ordered 200 AASM kits with their 24 Rafales.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 24 Jul 2020 16:03

Intention is to exploit the full capability and lethality of the Rafale as soon as possible given the serious security situation.

For quick deployment of Rafale, IAF opts for HAMMER weapon system, not Israeli Spice 2000

However, sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint that the main reason for the choice of the HAMMER, which costs about Rs 70 lakh each, is the ongoing crisis with China. The system is being procured under the new powers extended to the IAF for emergency procurement up to Rs 300 crore under capital budget.

“The IAF wants to operationalise the Rafale fighters faster due to the crisis with China. The Rafale lacks a proper air-to-surface precision missile for a shorter range of about 70 km to take out hardened surfaces, bunkers. And hence, the HAMMER is being bought,” a source said.

It is not immediately known how many systems are being bought. The emergency purchase is unlikely to have a ‘Make in India’ component, sources said.

Spice 2000 vs HAMMER

As mentioned above, the original plan was to equip the Rafale with Spice 2000 kits, which have already been integrated into the other French aircraft in the IAF inventory — the Mirage 2000.

“The Spice 2000 needs to be integrated into the Rafale aircraft. The cost of Spice, cost of integration and cost of testing has to be calculated. Plus, the whole process will take time. The Rafale is already capable of firing the HAMMER, and hence, it will allow faster operational deployment,” a second source explained.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 24 Jul 2020 16:21

Indranil wrote:This ad hoc buys irk me. Hammer is one of the most expensive A2G munitions there exists on this planet. And by a BIG BIG margin.

Given the serious security situation, using the Rafale to its full capabilities as soon as possible is a good decision / good deterrent.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Jul 2020 16:40

Possibly IAF wanted these but could not fit in the Euro 7.9 Billion deal, so these are begin added on in the current situation, it will take year to integrate Spice SAAW etc into the Rafale.

One of the reasons I think the Chinese are withdrawing from Galwan. With such a large number of their troops in Galwan Valley, they might have realized it could well be Muntho Dhalo II.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 24 Jul 2020 16:51

Rakesh wrote:nam: Hammer was among the weapons that was optioned for, to use aboard the Rafale.

Now with the ongoing border situation, that option is being exercised. Please see below (from 2017).

The Spice is the corresponding equivalent to the Hammer; both are add on kits that feature ins/gps, ir/optical and laser guidance. The spice is even integrated onto Mirage. The hammer has the rocket as part of the range extension, which ought to provide a different set of target attack profile parts

Autonomous after it has been dropped, it can be used at low altitudes, cross hilly terrain or veer sharply from the firing aircraft.

There could be subtler differences that escape me (eg hammer has a 250kg option, which doesn't appear on spice page). Are there any other reasons that would justify an emergency purchase (eg time taken for aircraft separation tests for spice on rafael ?) and higher costs

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jul 2020 20:27

This is by Group Captain MJA Vinod (retd). An top notch Mirage 2000 and MiG-21 pilot.

His twitter profile ----> https://twitter.com/MjaVinod

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/128 ... 92096?s=20 ----> Here I have explained it clearly two things

1. Head to head Rafale vs J20
2. Rafale vs F-16

Explained how balance of power is going to tilt in favour of India. In my self taught Hindi. Do Watch.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jul 2020 20:32

Here’s Why The IAF Has Chosen The Hammer For Its Rafale
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... afale.html
24 July 2020