Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[Virendra]

Rajesh India was and is a fertile land. Those who migrated to Central Asia went to a less bountiful land and had to depend on horse meat because they would not get two crops a year like India.

Reminds me of common AMT argument I hear - people move from less fertile land to more fertile one (into India) rather than the other way round. But they overlook many things:
a) In the vast timeline lying in front, at what time do we place this inward migration and where is the archeologival and genetic evidence to support that session of migration.
b) We use 'fertile land' as if throughout his entire history, man has been an agriculture intensive specie and was specificially looking for fertile land. Thousands of years back what a migrating lot's parameters were to choose a land and which land was how fertile or barren - we don't know.
c) We forget that migrations aren't always like some carefully planned, voluntary and happy procession. They are done out of necessity/compulsion, some times being forced by others.

Plates have moved in ways that the whole of the Island of Dwarka is under the sea now. So this possiblity over exactly the same time period cannot be discounted at all.

It is mentioned in puran that Suvarna Dwarika submerged in great flood/tsunami. What is found submerged near Bet Dwarika corroborates this. But, Mul Dwarka is also ancient place.

I assume that with the retreat of last Ice Age, many coastal areas were reclaimed by the rising Sea and that includes Manu's Dravida?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9RGVxTgQPl4/T ... vida+H.png
How does it relate to submerged Dwarikas (and supposedly many of them) ?
2. K Elst wrote/quoted somewhere that the coastal Sind, Gujarat and Maharashtra have clear Dravidian substratum such as village names ending with 'Valli', 'Palli' etc. Also early Jain texts in Gujarat mention cousin marriages, that we know are prevalant in south India.
3. It is not hard to see that India and Middle-East was a warm retreat for life to survive during Ice Age asentire north was trapped.
When the Ice Age ends, the population would jump to freshly inhabitable areas up north released by the departing Ice Age.
So which migration makes sense after Ice Age - into India or out of India?
4. Are the no. of horse remains/bones found in BMAC comparable to the number found in IVC/SSC? I haven't heard of anyone saying yes to that.
It is vital because BMAC would be the staging area for any central asian nomads moving in towards India. You don't just catch a direct Kingfisher flight to Mohenjodaro thousand of miles away. You would move in stages and definitely leave your marks in staging areas.

For a change, how about we hear an AMT story :
A group of nomads got on their horses from their central asian base;
traveled thousands of miles almost non-stop so there aren't much (horse) remains;
developed astronomic knowledge despite of being on the move;
found the exact gap in Hindukush to pass over in north west India;
settled down in an already existing advanced civilization;
invented sanskrit script and started writing the famous vedas;
yet in all those vedas they never ever mentioned even a wee bit about their central asian lebensraum;
yet they never ever told their brothers in central asia/europe of the land they found or the language and vedas they created?
------------------------------------------------
Humphh .. I'm out of breath ..

Regards,
Virendra

[RajeshA]

Ditto with the theory of "horse in India in 9,000 BC"; Where is the archaeological evidence for this fable ? The earliest evidence for horse I remember from previous discussion was Surkotada (2100 - 1700 BC).

The problem is that because of references to Horse in Rig Veda, you are trying to make a connection to Central Asia. I don't see any connection.

The Rig Vedic Horse has 34 ribs.

Rig Veda: 1.162.18

चतुस्त्रिंशद वाजिनो देवबन्धोर्वङकरीरश्वस्य सवधितिःसमेति |
अछिद्रा गात्रा वयुना कर्णोत परुष-परुरनुघुष्य वि शस्त ||

catustriṃśad vājino devabandhorvaṅkrīraśvasya svadhitiḥsameti |
achidrā ghātrā vayunā kṛṇota paruṣ-paruranughuṣya vi śasta ||

The four-and-thirty ribs of the. Swift Charger, kin to the Gods, the slayer's hatchet pierces.
Cut ye with skill, so that the parts be flawless, and piece by piece declaring them dissect them. (Ralph Griffith Translation)

The axe penetrates the thirty-four ribs of the swift horse; the beloved of the gods, (the immolators), cut up (the horse) with skill, so that the limbs may be unperforated, and recapitulating joint by joint. (H H Wilson And Sayana Bhasya Translation)

So it is obvious that the Rig Vedic Horse has absolutely nothing to do with the Central Asian Horse (36 ribs). Neither the Central Asian Horse came to India during the time of given Rig Vedic Hymn nor did any Horse go from India to Central Asia.

The Rig Vedic Indians obviously used to import the Arabian Horse, and there are sufficient ṛcas (stanzas) which speak of horses being led from afar, especially in connection with the Maruts.

So the Central Asian connection is really a needless legacy from the 19th century European thinking, based on wild speculation.

[member_20317]

Re. Shiv ji,

What you mentioned is also my belief regarding the changing of course by rivers. In addition to that my belief in the sponge like nature of ancient India’s tropical forest stems from what I understand of Amazon and my own native place in Uttranchal. Amazon is common knowledge pasted below for ready reference. In case of my village in lower Himalayas, I think I need to say something myself. Lower Himalayas are mostly made up of soil with only a little amount of rocks throw in. All this mounds of soil and the forest that expect to be only a little lesser then the present day Amazon is what I believe acted as a giant continent sized sponge to supply the Saraswati river system in the past. During the rainy seasons even to this day spontaneous discharge of water from the hills is a common phenomena. The landslide and mud slide cases that one comes across from the Uttranchal-Himanchal area are due to this reason coupled with the deforestation that had taken place in these lower hills. Presence or absence of such a topography adds or reduces the capacity of a river system as big as the Saraswati by a factor of 3.

I am not denying the tributaries. Water has to come from somewhere. In my view the water came from not one source in the Himalayas but from two sources. The direct water supply received by the sponge like topography from the heavy monsoons and the waters from the Glaciers. Unfortunately today we are restricted to only the Glaciers and so the importance of the topography is basically assumed away. But it is quite likely that even the Glaciers will get expended and that could become the primary reason for the yet another dilution of the Indic civilization. And unless we Indics whose life and civilization is at stake understand what happened, we may not be able to prepare ourselves for what can happen.

Certain animals display a very strange sense of usage of natural resources. When resources are in abundance they multiply but when resources are scarce they still try to multiply and reproduce even faster. Men and mice are two such animals that I know of. Our ancient urban Indics could have behaved something like this in a scenario of shifting and attenuating monsoons.

With the Amazon river system I am trying to see if it can be treated as the an advanced/extreme version of the somewhat more tame Ancient Indian subcontinent.

wiki :
The Amazon, which has the largest drainage basin in the world, about 7,050,000 square kilometres , accounts for approximately one-fifth of the world's total river flow.

In an average dry season, 110,000 square kilometres (42,000 sq mi) of land are water-covered, while in the wet season, the flooded area of the Amazon Basin rises to 350,000 square kilometres (140,000 sq mi).

The most distant source of the Amazon was established … as a glacial stream on a peak called Nevado Mismi in the Peruvian Andes.

Scientists have discovered the longest underground river in the world, in Brazil, running for a length of 6,000 km at a depth of nearly 4 km. It flows from the Andean foothills to the Atlantic coast in a nearly west-to-east direction like the Amazon River. Except for the flow direction, the Amazon and the Hamza have very different characteristics. The most obvious ones are their width and flow speed. While the former is 1 km to 100 km wide, the latter is 200 km to 400 km in width. But the flow speed is five meters per second in the Amazon and less than a millimeter per second speed in the Hamza.[35]

[RajeshA]

In response to a post by shiv saar!



Unicorn Seal, Mohenjo-daro

Large square unicorn seal (25.) with perforated boss on the back (26). The unicorn is the most common motif on Indus seals and appears to represent a mythical animal that Greek and Roman sources trace back to the Indian subcontinent.

A relatively long inscription of eight symbols runs along the top of the seal. The elongated body and slender arching neck is typical of unicorn figurines, as are the tail with bushy end and the bovine hooves. This figure has a triple incised line depicting a pipal leaf shaped blanket or halter, while most unicorn figures have only a double incised line. The arching horn is depicted as if spiraling or ribbed, and the jowl is incised with multiple folds.

A collar or additional folds encircle the throat. In front of the unicorn is a ritual offering stand with droplets of water or sacred liquid along the bottom of the bowl. The top portion of the stand depicts a square grid or sieve, that actually may have been a circular cylinder.

Elasmotherium

Elasmotherium ("Thin Plate Beast") is an extinct genus of giant rhinoceros endemic to Eurasia during the Late Pliocene through the Pleistocene, documented from 2.6 Ma to as late as 50,000 years ago, possibly later, in the Late Pleistocene, an approximate span of slightly less than 2.6 million years. Three species are recognised. The best known, E. sibiricum was the size of a mammoth and is thought to have borne a large, thick horn on its forehead which was used for defense, attracting mates, driving away competitors, sweeping snow from the grass in winter and digging for water and plant roots. Like all rhinoceroses, elasmotheres were herbivorous. Unlike any others, its high-crowned molars were ever-growing. Its legs were longer than those of other rhinos and were designed for galloping, giving it a horse-like gait.

Persians called it Karkadann

Karkadann was a mythical creature said to live on the grassy plains of India and Persia.

The name karkadann is a variation of the Persian kargadan, or Sanskrit kartajan, which is said to mean "lord of the desert". Fritz Hommel suspects that the word entered Semitic languages via Arabs from Abyssinia. Other spellings and pronunciations include karkaddan, kardunn, karkadan, and karkend.
It has been conjectured that the mythical karkadann may have an origin in an account from the Mahabharata.

Paper

Published October 4-7, 1999
By Antonio Panaino
Between Mesopotamia and India: Some Remarks about the Unicorn Cycle in Iran

Now we have to move to India, where we find the legend of Ṛṣyaśṛṅga “he who has the horn of an antelope,” who in the later version of the famous Buddhist Sanskrit text named Mahāvastu is called Ekaśṛṅga “Unicorn.” According to the Mahāvastu (141-52) versions of the legend (Naḷinījātaka), Ekaśṛṅga represents one of the preceding existence of Buddha. Son of an hermit, ṛsi Kāśyapa, and of a doe (which corresponds to Mahāprajāpati, the mother of Buddha), Ekaśṛṅga lived on the river GaYga with the animals. Thanks to the teachings of his father he attained the four dhyānas (“meditations”) and the five abhijñās (“super-knowledges”). The king of Benares (who was without a son) wanted him as husband for his own daughter Naḷinī (who corresponds to Yasodhara, the wife of Buddha) and sent her to him. Ekaśṛṅga, who never saw a woman before, was attracted by the young lady and her maidens and thought that they were young ṛsi Ekaśṛṅga, notwithstanding his attraction for Naḷinī refused to follow her, but after her departure he became depressed and forgot his dues. Then his father forbade him to meet again other people, but Naḷinī came again and attracted him on the boat, where they got married by a purohita. Once arrived at Benares, Ekaśṛṅga was accepted as heir to the king, and after his death he ascended the throne.

Della Casa has rightly directed scholars’ attention to another version of the legend, attested in the Pali Buddhist work titled Naḷinījātaka (= Jātaka 526), where the protagonist, here named Isisiṅga “he who has the horn of the ascetic,” was again son of a doe (miga). Isisiṅga “became a sage of such severe austerity that the abode of Sakka (i.e. Indra) was shaken by the power of his virtue.” Sakka, having discovered the origin of such a force, decided to break down his virtue, and hindered rain for three years in the kingdom of Kāśi.

[member_20317]

Re. Virender ji,

I was wondering if the following kind of pulls and thrusts between 12000-6900 ybp could have added up to substantial numbers in terms of coastal areas getting depressed. 5100 year period just a 0.1 mm depression would cause 51 cm or 1.7 feet depression. That coupled with the rising seas can easily account for the submergence of Dwarka.

Dedh do foot zamin khisak jaye, dedh do foot pani uppar aa jaye, aur gayi bhens pani mein.

Look at it this way:
1) How much does the Indian Plate behave in terms of movement per year basis currently:

Wiki:
“The Indo-Australian plate is still moving at 67 mm per year, and over the next 10 million years it will travel about 1,500 km into Asia. About 20 mm per year of the India-Asia convergence is absorbed by thrusting along the Himalaya southern front. This leads to the Himalayas rising by about 5 mm per year, making them geologically active.”

2) How much can the Indian Plate behave in terms of movement per year basis at its fastest:

Wiki:
“In the late Cretaceous about 90 million years ago, subsequent to the splitting off from Gondwana of conjoined Madagascar and India, the Indian Plate split from Madagascar. It began moving north, at about 20 centimetres (7.9 in) per year,[7]”

3) Why the Indian Plate is particularly susceptible to such fast movements:

Wiki:
In 2007, German geologists[7] suggested that the reason the Indian Plate moved so quickly is that it is only half as thick (100 kilometres (62 mi)) as the other plates[12] which formerly constituted Gondwana. The mantle plume that once broke up Gondwana might also have melted the lower part of the Indian subcontinent, which allowed it to move both faster and further than the other parts.[7] The remains of this plume today form the Marion, Kerguelen, and Réunion hotspots.[8] As India moved north, it is possible that the thickness of the Indian plate degenerated further as it passed over the hotspots and magmatic extrusions associated with the Deccan and Rajmahal Traps. [8]

4) How does the area around present day Gujarat look like in terms of its geology:
Note the coastal areas marked in a very thin strip of yellow for coastal Gujarat. That could be the edge of the traps and the beginning of lighter crust area and Dwarka could have been a part of it.

Wiki:

(Caveat – all speculation off course)

[Virendra]

Ravi Ji I take strong objection to the map Rest, the geo-science of your post was intriguing but went above my head. Sorry I'm not qualified enough.

@Rajesh Ji At the seal given above, how do we explain:
a) the very explicit wrinkles at the skin beneath the jaws
b) the longer tail
c) the uhh .. ahem ahem .. main point thingy of the animal

Regards,
Virendra

[RajeshA]

Ravi Ji I take strong objection to the map Rest, the geo-science of your post was intriguing but went above my head. Sorry I'm not qualified enough.

@Rajesh Ji At the seal given above, how do we explain:
a) the very explicit wrinkles at the skin beneath the jaws
b) the longer tail
c) the uhh .. ahem ahem .. main point thingy of the animal

Regards,
Virendra

a) The "restored" image of the Elasmotherium is really a bit of work of fantasy. Nobody really knows how the beast looked like. It is extinct, and one wouldn't know of any wrinkles on the skin of the animal. Those could be layers of loose-jowled skin, as we sometimes see on varieties of dogs.

b) Same is the case with the longer tail.

c) My imagination is insufficient!

[Nilesh Oak]

ravi_g ji,

Speculation is Great! Oh, that joy of speculation - Cupiditas Speculandi!

On subject of Sarasvati, Brihaspati ji, Virendra ji have added few good pointers and I feel (just intuition - may be a flavor of paranormal) that you are on right track.

Murugan Ji,

Thank you for references (and specific places in the Puranas) for Dwarka. Scientific (in non-academic sense of Indology) data exists for flooding of Dwarka, suddenness with which it is described. However I will reserve the details for my book - The Year of Mahabharata War : Addditional evidences from Astronomy, Geology & Anthropology.

Also thank you for references on Ribhus - related to a short lived debate. Of course it was me who decided to run away from the battlefield. Even Krishna is known as Rana-chor. Krishna had his reasons. My reason, in modern lingo.. don't be a Patsy (Las Vegas term).

[member_20317]

Virendra ji, no need to take exception.

It is only a map of Gujarat and a few areas surrounding it thrown in.

[ManishH]

Rbhus in Vedic Literature association with Monsoon

… "Oh, Rbhus! You were asleep, thereafter ask the sun Agohya, who is it that woke us up. The He-goat replied, the hound is the awakener. As the year is passed, today you declare the same" Rigveda 1.161.13

Here the He-goat tells that the season is over and the frogs announce the monsoon.

Where are frogs/monsoon/summer solstice mentioned in the original ?

[shiv]

Vocabulary %ages from substrate languages are not a measure of language origins. Such vocabulary borrowings are determined more by social conditions and willingness to adopt a new vocabulary. Phonetics however is pervasive and affects words regularly.

To give a modern example from bilingualism, my substrate is Hindi, but I often converse in English at work. I rarely (4%) use Hindi words in work conversation. But my articulation of English, like most Indians, is uniformly (99%) influenced by my Hindi phonetics - I retroflex the initial sound of 'tame' and 'dame' unlike a native English speaker who uses a dental stop.

Interesting that you admit that you retroflex those sounds. It so happens that everyone who comes to BRF knows English, and many will be able to figure out exactly what you mean when you write you write that you retroflex the sound. But if you had not written that nobody could have guessed. I cannot read Witzels words and say if he retroflexes his consonants or pronounces "school" as "iskool". The phonology remains uncertain even when the language in known.

The point I am making here is that the presence of a written script, and even a large body of people who are able to read and pronounce that written script is still insufficient to deduce the exact phonology. Even knowledge of the alphabet is no guarantee of knowledge of phonology.

If we have an undeciphered, unknown script, with no living speakers then deduction of phonology becomes pure guesswork.

Take the case of Hittite. This was an unknown language found written in Akkadian cuneiform. Akkadian was deciphered primarily because it was found in bilingual or trilingual scripts with Old Persian. Old Persian was deciphered primarily by its association with Sanskrit.

The assumed phonology of Hittite is inevitably coloured by the assumed phonology of old Persian (deduced by its closeness to Sanskrit)' These guessed sounds were transferred to Akkadian as the assumed phonology of Akkadian. Hittite was deciphered from Akkadian. The "missing sounds" the laryngeals of Hittite are touted as a great victory of lexicostatistical deduction, but the whole thing may well be fake. There is no science in assuming phonology. No one can really know what Hittie really sounded like other than by some nifty guesswork starting from Sanskrit, to old Persian to Akkadian Cuneiform to Hittite. All known and attested phonology in the chain of decipherment is from Sanskrit.

I find it extraordinary that philologists have this elaborately constructed series of bluffs and fake constructs to claim that they know the phonology of Hittite and other dead languages. And from this cooked up, unprovable phonology, the art (not science) of philology conjures up timelines by saying "This sound came earlier and that sound came later". The sounds are themselves are guessed and cooked up, and the timelines made out of that cooked up sound. The level of self delusion here is mind boggling. The sounds themselves are pure guesswork. The timelines for those sounds are even more artful bluffing. Already there are two levels of guesswork and bluffing, the sounds and the timelines, with one based on the other.

On top of this is a third layer of bluff, which is where we are today. Those unproven, definitely cooked up and completely fake timelines for language are then matched with real archaeological finds to claim that X people found in Y area dated Z spoke this language which was the proto language of someone else.

The utter baloney is not science. It is bluffing of the highest order and few people have bothered to catch these philologists by the scruff of the neck and hold them to account for cooking up bluff upon bluff upon bluff, with each new bluff self-referencing and older act of confabulation.

This is exactly the sequence of bluff referencing an earlier bluff referencing some handy prior guesswork that has been used to date the undated Rig Veda and connect it up with Central Asia. Deconstruction of this nonsense and reversing the damage done by philological delusions being passed off as knowledge, even science, is going to take a long time.

[shiv]

a) The "restored" image of the Elasmotherium is really a bit of work of fantasy. Nobody really knows how the beast looked like. It is extinct, and one wouldn't know of any wrinkles on the skin of the animal.

b) Same is the case with the longer tail.

c) My imagination is insufficient!

RajeshA. No one knows what Hittite, Babylonian, Tocharian or Old Persian really sounded like. But yet the sounds have been conjured up and "calculated" as "older sounds and newer sounds" by linguists. And from older and newer sounds they have deduced mother languages, daughter languages and sister languages. And from these completely cooked up relationships they have guessed backwards in time to conjure up dates for cooked up languages. Based on these dates they have found out who spoke those cooked up languages. And based on that guesswork they have found out about your father.

If linguists can do all that why can't you be given a little leeway hain?

[RajeshA]

shiv saar,

add to that that the main driver for phonology change and thus language change is the spectrum of sounds available in the substratum language of new (non-native) speakers, rather than the shift of sound based on closeness of sounds in the speech system of same language-speaking ethnic group thus allowing evolution of language over time.

The latter too happens, but in the case where migrations are being considered, the first factor becomes critical.

Thus one cannot extrapolate language changes based solely on the second factor, building axioms based on that.

[ManishH]

The domestication of horse would entail memories of wild horses, steppes, cohabitation, breaking of horses, full integration of the horse in the livelihood including drinking mare's milk. Drinking milk is a sign of intimacy which goes with cohabitation and domestication.

To so confidently make such a statement, have you searched vedic literature for references to wild horses and taming of horses ? You want to make up theories without doing research. This is the hallmark of propaganda, not serious study.

I'll just give you one from Gopatha Brāhmaṇa which uses an allegorical story of taming of wild horse to give a message that the three vedas cannot protect a man ...

(GBr_1,2.18d) tān vāg abhyuvācāśvaḥ śamyeteti
(GBr_1,2.18e) tatheti
(GBr_1,2.18f) tam ṛgveda etyovācāham aśvaṃ śameyam iti
(GBr_1,2.18g) tasmā abhisṛptāya mahad bhayaṃ sasṛje
(GBr_1,2.18h) sa etāṃ prācīṃ diśaṃ bheje
(GBr_1,2.18i) sa hovācāśānto nv ayam aśva iti
(GBr_1,2.18j) taṃ yajurveda etyovācāham aśvaṃ śameyam iti
(GBr_1,2.18k) tasmā abhisṛptāya mahad bhayaṃ sasṛje
(GBr_1,2.18l) sa etāṃ pratīcīṃ diśaṃ bheje
(GBr_1,2.18m) sa hovācāśānto nv ayam aśva iti
(GBr_1,2.18n) taṃ sāmaveda etyovācāham aśvaṃ śameyam iti
(GBr_1,2.18o) kena nu tvaṃ śamayiṣyasīti
(GBr_1,2.18p) rathantaraṃ nāma me sāmāghoraṃ cākrūraṃ ca
(GBr_1,2.18q) tenāśva abhiṣṭūyeteti
(GBr_1,2.18r) tasmā apy abhisṛptāya tad eva mahad bhayaṃ sasṛje

The english translation is from Lakshman Sarup's book on Nirukta and Naighaṇṭuka of Yāska ...

'Speech said to them, "tame the horse". "Be it so", replied they. Having approached him, the Rgveda said, "I shall tame the horse". When he set about (accomplishing it), a great terror seized him. He turned her in the eastern direction. He declared, "this horse is wild indeed". The Vājasneyi approached him and said, "I shall tame the horse". When he set about accomplishing it, a great terror seized him. He turned her in the western direction. He declared, "this horse is wild indeed" ... < and so on >

The point being - allegorical stories come from real life experiences. Whoever chose the theme of taming of wild horses was familiar with actually having tamed them. Just like Kabir's couplets use weaving terminology as allegory for his philosophical messages.

In RV horse references have a limited scope!

On the contrary, the horse is used as a ride of many Gods (already stated) and also personification of Agni (which is described as a Red steed appearing in the woods). It makes no sense to use a purely commercial beast in liturgy and theology.

[shiv]

The domestication of horse would entail memories of wild horses, steppes, cohabitation, breaking of horses, full integration of the horse in the livelihood including drinking mare's milk. Drinking milk is a sign of intimacy which goes with cohabitation and domestication.

To so confidently make such a statement, have you searched vedic literature for references to wild horses and taming of horses ? You want to make up theories without doing research. This is the hallmark of propaganda, not serious study.

Serious study of earlier propaganda and bluff may be called serious study, but the material remains propaganda and bluff. Serious study of philologocal "proofs" and timelines is serious study, but the conclusions are nonsense because the material that is seriously studied was guesswork and garbage in the first place.

[RajeshA]

The domestication of horse would entail memories of wild horses, steppes, cohabitation, breaking of horses, full integration of the horse in the livelihood including drinking mare's milk. Drinking milk is a sign of intimacy which goes with cohabitation and domestication.

To so confidently make such a statement, have you searched vedic literature for references to wild horses and taming of horses ? You want to make up theories without doing research. This is the hallmark of propaganda, not serious study.

I'll just give you one from Gopatha Brāhmaṇa which uses an allegorical story of taming of wild horse to give a message that the three vedas cannot protect a man ...

(GBr_1,2.18d) tān vāg abhyuvācāśvaḥ śamyeteti
(GBr_1,2.18e) tatheti
(GBr_1,2.18f) tam ṛgveda etyovācāham aśvaṃ śameyam iti
(GBr_1,2.18g) tasmā abhisṛptāya mahad bhayaṃ sasṛje
(GBr_1,2.18h) sa etāṃ prācīṃ diśaṃ bheje
(GBr_1,2.18i) sa hovācāśānto nv ayam aśva iti
(GBr_1,2.18j) taṃ yajurveda etyovācāham aśvaṃ śameyam iti
(GBr_1,2.18k) tasmā abhisṛptāya mahad bhayaṃ sasṛje
(GBr_1,2.18l) sa etāṃ pratīcīṃ diśaṃ bheje
(GBr_1,2.18m) sa hovācāśānto nv ayam aśva iti
(GBr_1,2.18n) taṃ sāmaveda etyovācāham aśvaṃ śameyam iti
(GBr_1,2.18o) kena nu tvaṃ śamayiṣyasīti
(GBr_1,2.18p) rathantaraṃ nāma me sāmāghoraṃ cākrūraṃ ca
(GBr_1,2.18q) tenāśva abhiṣṭūyeteti
(GBr_1,2.18r) tasmā apy abhisṛptāya tad eva mahad bhayaṃ sasṛje

The english translation is from Lakshman Sarup's book on Nirukta and Naighaṇṭuka of Yāska ...

'Speech said to them, "tame the horse". "Be it so", replied they. Having approached him, the Rgveda said, "I shall tame the horse". When he set about (accomplishing it), a great terror seized him. He turned her in the eastern direction. He declared, "this horse is wild indeed". The Vājasneyi approached him and said, "I shall tame the horse". When he set about accomplishing it, a great terror seized him. He turned her in the western direction. He declared, "this horse is wild indeed" ... < and so on >

The point being - allegorical stories come from real life experiences. Whoever chose the theme of taming of wild horses was familiar with actually having tamed them. Just like Kabir's couplets use weaving terminology as allegory for his philosophical messages.

Well that is taming. Not domestication!

Before a rider can ride a horse, he needs to tame it. It is not just horses in the wild that need taming.

When horse herds were brought from Arabia to India, it was not as if all horses were fit to be ridden or to drive a chariot. The journey itself would have made the horse traumatized, especially if the horses were being shipped in crampy boats or ships and transported over sea.

Often one uses the Rarey technique to tame traumatized horses! And yes, horses do act wild initially.

Besides Gopatha Brahmana, which is the Brahmana associated with Atharva Veda, is considered a very late development. One would hardly expect it to be producing a case, which may have occurred allegedly by some alleged Central Asian Aryans.

In RV horse references have a limited scope!

On the contrary, the horse is used as a ride of many Gods (already stated) and also personification of Agni (which is described as a Red steed appearing in the woods). It makes no sense to use a purely commercial beast in liturgy and theology.

Just like all this is speculation on the part of the Indologists, let me indulge in a bit of that myself.

Asvah is a term one uses for the Sun. It is from the Sun that the Horse got its name and not the other way. I did write a few posts on this earlier also. It probably means "untiring, relentless, full of energy, always running, inextinguishable".

Also Sri Aurobindo writes in The Secrets of the Veda (Volume 15) Page 44

The cow and horse, go and aśva, are constantly associated. Usha, the Dawn, is described as gomatī aśvavatī; Dawn gives to the sacrificer horses and cows. As applied to the physical dawn gomatī means accompanied by or bringing the rays of light and is an image of the dawn of illumination in the human mind. Therefore aśvavatī also cannot refer merely to the physical steed; it must have a psychological significance as well. A study of the Vedic horse led me to the conclusion that go and aśva represent the two companion ideas of Light and Energy, Consciousness and Force, which to the Vedic and Vedantic mind were the double or twin aspect of all the activities of existence.

It was apparent, therefore, that the two chief fruits of the Vedic sacrifice, wealth of cows and wealth of horses, were symbolic of richness of mental illumination and abundance of vital energy. It followed that the other fruits continually associated with these two chief results of the Vedic karma must also be capable of a psychological significance. It remained only to fix their exact purport.

This "The Secret of the Veda", Sri Aurobindo wrote between August 1914 - July 1916. That was before archaeological excavations started in Harappa in 1920, i.e. before somebody knew that the horse would become an issue. So he wasn't trying to "trick" somebody with an alternate definition of aśva.

Light and Energy are what we get from the Sun. So when the Horse is associated with the Sun it pertains to the Sun in its mode as giver of energy.

So Aśva is the inextinguishable source of energy! Aśva first and foremost pertains to the Sun and only secondarily to the Horse due to analogous properties like speed, journey, power, etc..

Since the Sun was central to Vedism, it is not surprising that the Horse is also revered. But that in itself has no bearing on Rig Vedic Aryans being the prodigy of some alleged Central Asian Aryans trying to preserve their memory of the Horse.

Once the Horse came to be associated with the Surya (due to property overlap, zoomorphism) as well as with Indra (regal power, privileged use), it was obvious that the Horse would become an object of reverence.

Disclaimer: All this is not peer-reviewed, only peearef-reviewed!

[Nilesh Oak]

RajeshA and Shiv Saar,

Changing gears (but not the topic - language), I have a booklet created by my friend, original thinker along the lines of Vartak, Einstein, Newton and kepler. So expect flight of fancy, joy of speculation and wonderful research. I do want you to have a look at it. I have deliberately taken a break from tautological science of Linguistics. My head starts hurting in a hurry.

I asked the question what Linguistics have produced that is worthy of mention since Rosetta Stone (and Panini).

I would say.. Sullivan Code (we could be wrong and will be happy to be wrong.. but that means there will be progress in SIVC script decipherment) and the booklet I am referring to. Both from two non-academics. Now you know where to look for breakthrough research. If you are still not convinced read Nassim Taleb's quote I copyed on this forum few days ago.

I have RajeshA email, but not of Shiv Saar. RajeshA, would you please forward email of Shiv to me. I will send you e-copy of his booklet. If you are in North America do support his efforts (he is not eligible for academic grants) by purchasing (~$10) paper copy of his booklet.

He is also one of the many collaborators, along with me and others, on Sullivan Code (SIVC script decipherment).

[brihaspati]

Rbhus in Vedic Literature association with Monsoon

… "Oh, Rbhus! You were asleep, thereafter ask the sun Agohya, who is it that woke us up. The He-goat replied, the hound is the awakener. As the year is passed, today you declare the same" Rigveda 1.161.13

Here the He-goat tells that the season is over and the frogs announce the monsoon.

Where are frogs/monsoon/summer solstice mentioned in the original ?

I think this is a crucial observation : there is no frogs/monsoon/summer solstice mentioned here directly. If one says they exist - one has to interpret the verse and show connections to the words/expressions used - to frogs et al. If interpretations are anot allowed, we have to take the verse as it is and take it literally.

Remember - no "interpretations" at all!!! So all that the verse says is that one can literally talk to the sun, and converse with it/him/her, and the sun will reply in corresponding understandable terms. Crucially the male-goat can talk Sanskrit, and said that the hound woke up everyone.

Maybe the wriggling out exercise will be now to say - it is obviously an allegory. Why should it be an allegory? An allegory necessarily implies that the words/imagery/expressions/descriptions as stated do not literally represent what the allegory is actually trying to convery or describe. Moreover, the need for the allegory also implies that the original underlying object of description does not have realistic/visualizable/concrete descriptions of its own in the material culture of that society.

Both of these aspects require the assumption of non-literal interpretations, and an underlying origianl abstract object or event. If you ban "interpretations" even allegories are ruled out.

The point being - allegorical stories come from real life experiences. Whoever chose the theme of taming of wild horses was familiar with actually having tamed them. Just like Kabir's couplets use weaving terminology as allegory for his philosophical messages.

I am flummoxed! This logic would require us to believe that whoever compsed the verse on the "ribhus" waking up - was familiar with the he-goat actually speaking Sanskrit. Or that the he-goat was in the habit of communicating with humans in some form - as otherwise why pick on the poor he-goat for the allegory - why not the horse [whose head is supposedly equivalent to the human head] which is theologically so much more significant, empowered, exalted and "non-cmmercial" after all!

Curiously : how could the composer of a verse related to the AV have memories of taming wild horses - which as "wild" - could only have been in the horse-guru cultural centres of Steppes, and not in India, so -so late in Atharva Veda phase which came after - after RV? Did he have astral travel capabilities in time and space, and tamed wild horses in the astral planes of Steppes?

[PS: I am skeptical about the dogmatic chronological ordering of the Vedas - and I think we should explore whether or not it is possible that parts of the AV represent an older form in tradition to that of the RV. None of these texts should be taken as single-time-point compositions, insertion of later material into earlier texts should not be assumed to have taken place only at sites and in order that the dogma demands - and that the whole ordering could be reversed once we allow looking at heterogeneity in composition, re-textualization, and drop current assumptions on linguistic identifications as fit for re-examination.]

[member_22872]

insertion of later material into earlier texts should not be assumed to have taken place only at sites and in order that the dogma demands

Bji, are there any works Indian or otherwise where later authors have edited and/or added parts to say this is also possible in case of Vedic texts? and why do you feel this is possible in case of vedas? are there any changes in compositions that stand out? any examples?

[Virendra]

I've heard N S Rajaram say once that although text like Ramayana or Mahabharata could be interpolated and amended; it is almost impossible to play with the vedas. Don't remember what his reasoning was.

Regards,
Virendra

[Atri]

I've heard N S Rajaram say once that although text like Ramayana or Mahabharata could be interpolated and amended; it is almost impossible to play with the vedas. Don't remember what his reasoning was.

Regards,
Virendra

Shruti cannot be changed.. Shruti has been copied and kept alive across length and breadth of India and there is hardly any "Paathabheda" within different Shruti learning and teaching centers. Verses, their chronology and even "accents" is preserve and transferred on to generations as it is.

This is the key difference between Shruti and Smriti. Shruti is considered "infallible" and "Apaurusheya" (cannot translate this one) by the tradition. hence this stringency..

We should be thankful to those who have painstakingly preserved these memories of mankind since antiquity, perhaps even prior to evolution of human speech, in spite of all odds.. The only "change", so to speak, in Shruti was by Veda Vyaasa who, as tradition holds it, compiled and categorized shruti in 4 parts (what we know today as 4 vedas).

Incidently, even Puranas are full of such old memories, lores, stories, metaphors, legends. But Puranas are those stories which are somehow not considered as "important" as Vedas. By importance, I mean that the stringency with which vedas have been preserved to word and even accent, is not applied ot Puranas, which can be amended and recomposed and rewritten in any language prevalent in space and time. Same is case with other "smriti" literature. Hence tradition says, in instances where shruti and smriti are in contradiction, stand of "shruti" is upheld, without exception.

[Atri]

Certain inquiry about verses from RV

1. 1.161.11

Lets see how originally the verse is in sanskrit

सुषुप्वांस ऋभवस्तद पृच्छता गोह्य क इदं नो अबूबुधत् |
श्वानं बस्तो बोधयितारमब्रवीत् सम्वत्सर इदमद्या व्यख्यत ||

Now, the word Basto (बस्तो) is vibhakti of basta (बस्त).. I do not know why is it translated as "goat" when the word is meant as "Sun" (soorya). All traditional translations of this verse translate Basta as Sun and not goat. Yes, Basta also means goat, but it also means sun. And looking at the context here, lets try to see how the meaning of this Rchaa becomes if we take meaning of this word as Sun.

my attempted translation (perhaps Manishji can correct me here)

Oh Rbhus!!, You asked Surya (basta/ बस्त - sun) who awakened us from sleep? Then Surya replied, it was "Shvaana" (dog) who awakened you. It is year today.

Now RV 4-33-7 (again with pratyaya solved, to the best of my meager knowledge)

द्वादश दयून् यद् अगोह्यस्य आतिथ्ये रणन् ऋभवः ससन्तः
सुक्षेत्र अकृण्वन् अनयन्त सिन्धुन् धन्वः अतिष्ठन् ओषधिः निम्नं आपः

Rbhus rested and enjoyed hospitality (aatithye) in 12 sections of sky (Dyu) of that unconcealed (Agohya) one (unconcealed one is Sun), then moved on making rumbling noises (Ranan रणन्) to make barren lands (dhanvah) fertile (Sukshetra), producing food and herbs (Oshadhi), causing waters (aapah) and rivers (Sindhu) come (flow) downwards.

Clearly, Rbhu is "cloud".. Rbhus move with rumbling noise, convert barren lands into fertile fields, cause water to flow down and rivers as well, and make plants grow all over the places. this is clearly depiction of monsoon.

Third reference

शुनशिरौ इमां वाचं जुषेथा यद् दिवि चक्रथुः पयः - RV 4-57-5

Oh Dog heads!! Please shower the waters that you produce in sky..

Shoona is dog, Shira is head, Shirau is more than one head (two heads, at the least)..

Regarding Frogs etc there is entire Sukta (RV 7-103) dedicated to frogs..

Here are few snippets from RV 7-103

संवत्सरं शशयाना ब्राह्मणः व्रतचारिणः |
वाचं पर्जन्यजिन्वितां पर मण्डूका अवादिषुः || 1

Frogs, who were sleeping for past year, start croaking as dedicatedly as a brahmin who has undertaken some vrata to please the rains.

This also signify, people then used to consider arrival of rains as mark of beginning of new year.

ब्राह्मणासो अतिरात्रे न सोमे सरो न पूर्णमभितो वदन्तः |
संवत्सरस्य तदहः परि षठ यन् मण्डूकाः परावृष्णम् बभूव || 7

When rainy season comes, on first day of year, Oh frogs you gather around pool as brahmins gather in Atiraatram Soma Yajna.

So again, Monsoon is mark of a new year..

ब्राह्मणासः सोमिनो वाचमकृत ब्रह्म कृण्वन्तः परिवत्सरीणम |
अध्वर्यवो घर्मिणः सिष्विदाना आविर्भवन्ति गुह्या न के चित || 8

Like Brahmin speaks (sings), after consuming Soma, and performs Parivatsarinam (related to year OR rain) while sweating profusely, frogs too come out of hiding when rainy season comes.

This means during Parivatsarinam, brahmin is sweating profusely (perhaps due to high temperatures) when rainy season arrives.

The line continues in verse 9 where they say " Frogs follow the order set by gods and rules of seasons in 12 months. At end of year, being troubled by heat and sweat, they come out when rainy season arrives"

All these references above shows several things..

1. Concept of month was known to Vedic people.
2. The arrival of Monsoon (which is peculiarity of Indian subcontinent an definitely not central asia) was considered as beginning of new year. Hence the words like Varsha and samvatsara denoting year in all Indic languages which is derived from root which means "to shower (varshayati)"..
3. Rbhu refers to cloud. Rbhus refer to thundering and water carrying Clouds OR in other words Monsoon.
4. They make land become fertile, green and fill the rivers with water.
5. Just prior to arrival of monsoon people (and fauna) are troubled due to heat and humidity (typical of late May and early June period in desh in modern times) and arrival of rainy season provides much sought for respite.
6. Two headed dog in sky is responsible for showering water on earth - Also interpreted as "Mriga Nakshatra"..
7. This same celestial dog (shvaana) is responsible for awakening of Rbhus and all the subsequent action and changes mentioned in above 6 points.
8. Monsoon held a very important position in lives of those who composed Vedas. Indra is lord of Rbhus and rains.

In my opinion, this is one more pointer towards Indic home of those who composed Shruti literature.

[brihaspati]

venug garu,
there is a standard [become standard and academically established - I am merely using it] opinion on the relative chronological ordering within the RV, or between RV and the other Vedas - that they were not all composed at the same time. Different schools of thought pose different orderings - for example the Oldenburgians and Talageri differ - but they all accept "orderings".

Note that orderings do not contradict subsequent standardization through shruti practice.

One of the things to note is that Vedas themselves are not that clear about relative ordering in time - but subsequent teekakars/explanators/preservers/commentators have ordered them in terms of importance, not necessarily in terms of time ordering.

As for insertion - yes, there is the possibility that the different verse rhythms/styles/patterns were all fixed simultaneously. But there is also the equal possibility that the different matras/chhanda reflect different compositional styles. If we insist on the inclination to fix rigidly the form of a verse as soon as it is composed - it then does raise the possibility that variation in style becomes less likely if all the verses were composed by the same source at the same time.

The insistence on accurate re-rendering of phonetic rendition as well as word by word - indicates the likelihood that the society experienced and experimented with transmission of verses for a time where things drifted, or lost their meaning. It would be this initial phase where reorderings, rephrasings or insertions would be more likely.


I have proposed consdiering Sudas as an eample of a later - Punjab - frontier area military opportunist [just like so many in Indian history that rose to power by exploiting the situation of lying between trade and political power centres for example in this case GV versus Saurashtra and the Gandhar zone which in the post ice age phase was fertile], who allied with or incorporated Gandharians and other peripheral semi-Indic or Indic groups into a multi-ethnic [but still not much different in language etc] armed expansion regime. Such a culture would develop a camp version of any prevalent pre-existing older, better constructed language - say a proto-Sanskrit, into the RV Sanskrit [which is complained against by "Sanskrit" commentators as sometimes deviating from "rules" of language].

Such a culture would highight the importance of "horse" as a military icon , and the regime hagiographers would cannibalize older verses and memes in ways that would service the needs and projections of the new regime. They can therefore enhance, bring forward, reorder the verses in ways that pushes up aspects of the new regime.

That would explain a lot of peculiarities in the RV - by which "horse" or "military" references seem to be significant, and the so-called family-chapters [2-7] are given prominence, or the references that Talageri discovers/interprets as a reverse chronology as well as spatial direction in opossition to AIT.

[Nilesh Oak]

Atri, ji

Thank you. When I referred to Tilak (in my first post on this subject) I commented that "Tilak knew the correct meaning but chose to deviate" and rather interpreted this to mean Vernal Equinox" I said Tilak knew the meaning because Tilak has interpreted Ribhus= clouds, when he refers to the verses (you quoted) elsewhere.

Ditto for Shuna-Shirau. Thank you for digging these verses. Let me add few things

(1) A cardinal point , astronomically speaking, that coincides with Monsoon (approximately speaking) is that of Summer Solstice.

(2) And Goat (Basto.. assuming that is the meaning) can also refer to 'Mriga' (a well known astronmy based themes of Vyadha(Sirius) killing Mriga (area of Mrigashirsha with 3 belt stars), or Shiva (Sirius) killing Daksha (Mirgashrisha again) because he began approaching Rohini come to mind). And keep in mind that Canis Major/minor or next to 'Mriga'.

The reason I decided not to get sucked into the debate (not be a sucker) was that the discussion violated basic rule of scientific discussion. - explanation- prediction-testing.

Explanation (Shwan, Basto, clouds, beginning of year, Summer Solstice, Monsoon),- Testing (using astronomy simulation) and prediction (when did this scenario might have occured). The requirement for any scientific experiment is that one must have at least one corner of this metaphorical triangle on solid (solid-er) ground, then we can play around with second corner (in this case testing) to know more about the third (prediction)

This is a cardinal rule of doing science, i.e. always work on one problem at a time, while assuming others to be on solid ground (background assumptions). This does not mean one can not question background assumptions. In fact one is encouraged (and in my mind required ) to question everything to test the mantle of any theory including background assumptions, but always follow cardinal rule of working on one problem at a time.

Atri, Ji,

You just showed us how that is to be done. You focused on 'Explanation' corner of this metaphorical triangle.

I have provided the second (Testing), assuming many things (explanation, Astronomy software, Newton's law, age of Earth and many more) to be valid.

We have the prediction. Let's not scare people too much. 26000 BC will do for now. Irrespective of coordinate system used, both Canis Major and Canis Minor were MUCH closer to the ECLPITC in 26000 BC than they are today. One may also note that Canis Minor is consider one of the 4 Punarvasus in Indian astronomy.

Now we are ready to question each of our assumption...

(1) Explanation...i.e. interpreation of Rigveda verse

(2) Testing - validity of Astronomy Software

(3) Prediction 26000 BC - Well, were we not apes and Monkeys then

[brihaspati]

^^A lot of the Vedic verses - are referring to astronomical features. The horse-goat-deer-hound-hunter-chariot all should be explored more for narrations of astronomical observations and features instead of the literal interpretations that AITians are so fond of.

[partha]

Shruti cannot be changed.. Shruti has been copied and kept alive across length and breadth of India and there is hardly any "Paathabheda" within different Shruti learning and teaching centers. Verses, their chronology and even "accents" is preserve and transferred on to generations as it is.

We should be thankful to those who have painstakingly preserved these memories of mankind since antiquity, perhaps even prior to evolution of human speech, in spite of all odds.. The only "change", so to speak, in Shruti was by Veda Vyaasa who, as tradition holds it, compiled and categorized shruti in 4 parts (what we know today as 4 vedas).

In the "Story of India" documentary of Michael Woods, he mentions that when the British first found out about the oral traditions of passing down knowledge in India, they could not believe it. So one interested British man got a Rig Veda copy from four corners of India N,W,E,S. He was amazed to find that there was only a 1 character difference in the East version (IIRC it was east). Rest were identical to the last character.

[Nilesh Oak]

And exactly for that reason the RV should have recorded some hymn about the fluctuations in fortune of theh whole civilization. Wonder if such fluctuation is there in RV. Fluctuations in reasons that lead to fluctuations in Monsoons have been linked to aridification of middle east over last 55000 years.

Don't know about fluctuation in Monsoon or fluctuaation in fortune, but isn't there a reference to Sarasavti splitting into hundres of canals/small streams... in the context of Vasistha/Vishwamitra. If that is part of RV (I don't remember the location) then it may allude to tectonic activity.

Food for thought.

[shiv]

I have no issues with the 4% given the conservative methodology. The important point to note is that FBJ Kuiper's 4% is based only on vocabulary borrowing (the %age of borrowed words that are conclusively non-IE) - it doesn't give a measure of how much (in %age) does the phonology of Sanskrit differ from the common IE parent. Eg. if I just take one phonetic trait of debuccalization - replacement of final -s with -ḥ, it's 99%!

ManishH ji. Phonology of unknown and dead languages or cooked up languages is fake-ology. Talking of phonology of a "common IE parent" which is a cooked up non existent language in support of your argument is nonsense. At best it is a hypothesis that you or others might like to work on.

Vocabulary %ages from substrate languages are not a measure of language origins. Such vocabulary borrowings are determined more by social conditions and willingness to adopt a new vocabulary. Phonetics however is pervasive and affects words regularly..

Sorry sir. You have to do better than that to get anywhere near being convincing.

If you don't know about language origins you cannot assert that the absence of a substrate only means that everyone simply shifted to a new language. A substrate by definition is what is left of an older language when a new one is imposed. A language with the smallest percentage of substrate is most likely to be the origin of that language. Higher percentages of substrates occur as a language is imposed or overlaid on a population group that used to speak a different language.

Please don't push the phonetics bit too far. Most proto language phonetics for Indo-Iranian languages has been cooked up by prior knowledge of Sanskrit. Phonology and vocabulary have both played a role in the study of languages. The vocabulary part is clearly attestable even if inaccurate because of ancient texts and their decipherment. The phonology part of proto languages is totally cooked up and cannot be assumed to be correct. The presence of retroflexes, aspirates or laryngeals in a dead language may be totally missed, or applied because it seems to fit. Cooking up a proto language from that is garbage. This does not in any way constitute proof that an earlier language really sounded like that.

[shiv]

I asked the question what Linguistics have produced that is worthy of mention since Rosetta Stone (and Panini).

I would say.. Sullivan Code (we could be wrong and will be happy to be wrong.. but that means there will be progress in SIVC script decipherment) and the booklet I am referring to. Both from two non-academics. Now you know where to look for breakthrough research. If you are still not convinced read Nassim Taleb's quote I copyed on this forum few days ago.

I have RajeshA email, but not of Shiv Saar. RajeshA, would you please forward email of Shiv to me. I will send you e-copy of his booklet. If you are in North America do support his efforts (he is not eligible for academic grants) by purchasing (~$10) paper copy of his booklet.

He is also one of the many collaborators, along with me and others, on Sullivan Code (SIVC script decipherment).

Nileshji - the paper is simply brilliant stuff. The first 20-30 pages suddenly switched a light on in my mind. This is serendipity at its finest. I have not yet read the later half and the author's theories, but the tabulation similarity of ABCD with Panini's ordering is totally new and totally brilliant. Obviously, any Indian who knows the ka-cha-ta-th-pa sequence of Indian alphabet and learns the seeming disorder of ABCD - this reordering is IMO on par with a description of Fleming's discovery of Penicillin that I read in a medical paper decades ago.

Penicillin was discovered because Fleming noticed something that others would have discarded as contaminated slides to be rejected and ignored. It is serendipity - the act of noticing that hair behind a leaf in a bush and discovering an entire furry animal behind it.

OT but I had summarized that 1980s paper here

[Murugan]

Murugan Ji,

Thank you for references (and specific places in the Puranas) for Dwarka. Scientific (in non-academic sense of Indology) data exists for flooding of Dwarka, suddenness with which it is described. However I will reserve the details for my book - The Year of Mahabharata War : Addditional evidences from Astronomy, Geology & Anthropology.

Also thank you for references on Ribhus - related to a short lived debate. Of course it was me who decided to run away from the battlefield. Even Krishna is known as Rana-chor. Krishna had his reasons. My reason, in modern lingo.. don't be a Patsy (Las Vegas term).

It was indeed a great pleasure to contribute my two paisa...

Regarding reference on Ribhus, Yes Krishna the Ranchhod Rai had 'run' away from the battlefield. I also took cue from Lord Krishna's life who was also known as Giridhari who lifted Govardhan Parvat and other guys supported Giridhari. Nileshji you and Rajeshji have lifted Govardhan parvat here and it was my duty to just be underneath the Govardhan and support it.

Btw, Lubdhak is not much used in Indian literature. Lubdhak word is actually found more in bengali names. Word 'Svan' is usually found for Canis Majoris/Sirius. I have provided 'evidence'.

The story is that Indra had designated those stars in the memory of Yudhishthir's svan who went with Yudhishthir to Himalaya and later to Svarg (But its bones are not found yet, so i cannot be sure). I also dont know which species of svan was that (may be Raj Palayan - because it escaped (palayan) with a Royal (Raj)) , and also wonder how svan survived in Himalayan cold.

***

All the best for your New Book!

[Murugan]

In the "Story of India" documentary of Michael Woods, he mentions that when the British first found out about the oral traditions of passing down knowledge in India, they could not believe it. So one interested British man got a Rig Veda copy from four corners of India N,W,E,S. He was amazed to find that there was only a 1 character difference in the East version (IIRC it was east). Rest were identical to the last character.

This is a matter of great pride. People instead of telling that there was no writing printing tech in india, this is a great example of preserving memories on organic 'discs', and so accurately, for millenniums and everyone who thinks veds and shrutis as their heritage be very much proud.

[Murugan]

Unknowingly We are becoming Beach Combers of Evidences (!!)

Someone keeps on asking to collect evidence, and we do combing, first horse bones, than chariot spokes, frog, monsoon, shvaan bones.

the best thing I liked about finding out:
1) steppes which do not have four seasons like Bharat.(unlike central asian)
2) Desi Horses have 34 ribs (unlike central asian)
3) We are lactose tolerant (unlike...)
4) We dring cow milk (unlike...)
5) Our ancestors never drank mare's milk
6) Our ancestors were genius (unlike...)

Thanks to someone!

[svinayak]

This is how truth is found.

Also this is the way colonial historians had hidden the real info

[RajeshA]

RajeshA and Shiv Saar,

Changing gears (but not the topic - language), I have a booklet created by my friend, original thinker along the lines of Vartak, Einstein, Newton and kepler. So expect flight of fancy, joy of speculation and wonderful research. I do want you to have a look at it. I have deliberately taken a break from tautological science of Linguistics. My head starts hurting in a hurry.

<snip>

He is also one of the many collaborators, along with me and others, on Sullivan Code (SIVC script decipherment).

Nilesh Oak ji,

ABCD or ABRACADABRA? I loved his hypothesis! And it is really breaking new ground.

I had linked Wim Borsboom's paper in "Link Language for India" Thread about a week ago!

[Arjun]

There needs to be more discussion on this thread of the CCMB report on Indian population genetics. A search shows up that it was briefly touched upon earlier on this thread: New Research Debunks AMT

But the discussion was way too cursory for a report that, if true, conclusively establishes the fact that AMT is a load of BS. Despite the fact that there have been other population genetics studies that claimed to provide opposing results - the key point to remember is that this report is the latest and therefore in a sense supersedes all prior studies. Further it was conducted by an official agency which also happens to be the premier scientific authority within India in this space.

[shiv]

There needs to be more discussion on this thread of the CCMB report on Indian population genetics. A search shows up that it was briefly touched upon earlier on this thread: New Research Debunks AMT

But the discussion was way too cursory for a report that, if true, conclusively establishes the fact that AMT is a load of BS. Despite the fact that there have been other population genetics studies that claimed to provide opposing results - the key point to remember is that this report is the latest and therefore in a sense supersedes all prior studies. Further it was conducted by an official agency which also happens to be the premier scientific authority within India in this space.

Arjun there was one other paper -the one about "Ancestral North Indian" and "Ancestral South Indian" that equally debunks AMT and caste for many reasons - the simplest one being that any migration that took place - happened about 12,000 to 7000 years ago. That paper shows that there is a gradient of the genes in India with even the lowest caste tribal groups of the south and east having at least 25% of the high caste gene, with southern high high caste having a similar percentage to the northern lowest castes, and the north western high castes along with some far east Bengalis having the highest percentage. There is also a curious M1 gene that originated in Gujarat and seems to have spread with some guys sperms all over Europe and North America. Shaurya T may know this guy

The AMT and caste hypotheses are dead in fact, but remain alive among academia who are unassociated with what is new, and among the lay public.

BTW can someone download that scribd paper you linked and send it to me - I have nothing to upload to scribd at this point in time although I did give them my Paki book a couple of years ago the ingrates.

[Atri]

Shiv ji,

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 08365.html

India has been underrepresented in genome-wide surveys of human variation. We analyse 25 diverse groups in India to provide strong evidence for two ancient populations, genetically divergent, that are ancestral to most Indians today. One, the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI), is genetically close to Middle Easterners, Central Asians, and Europeans, whereas the other, the ‘Ancestral South Indians’ (ASI), is as distinct from ANI and East Asians as they are from each other. By introducing methods that can estimate ancestry without accurate ancestral populations, we show that ANI ancestry ranges from 39–71% in most Indian groups, and is higher in traditionally upper caste and Indo-European speakers. Groups with only ASI ancestry may no longer exist in mainland India. However, the indigenous Andaman Islanders are unique in being ASI-related groups without ANI ancestry. Allele frequency differences between groups in India are larger than in Europe, reflecting strong founder effects whose signatures have been maintained for thousands of years owing to endogamy. We therefore predict that there will be an excess of recessive diseases in India, which should be possible to screen and map genetically.

One needs access to read this nature-paper... The gist of the content is, most of Indians since 40,000 YBP belong to a genetic group which the authors call ANI (Ancestral North Indian). They Ancestral South Indian (ASI) group, which might be present in India before ANI replaced it, is now found only in some tribes living in some islands of Andaman and Nicobar. Rest of mainland India is populated by ANI stock for at least past 40,000 years.

For most of this time, the ANI stock has been mostly "endogamous" and there is not much influx of outside genes seen in resident ANI population of Indian subcontinent.

here is TOIlet link of the news - http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ans-tribes

http://www.biomedcentral.com./1471-2164/7/151

This is another paper dealing with similar topic which the nature paper cites in few instances, also referring to the gist elucidated above.

To change the topic completely, it would be wonderful if resident molecular biologists and biochemists of the forum could contact Prof. Lalji Singh and invite him to BRF to give us his insight.

[Arjun]

You can download the CCMB - Estonia paper here

[Rahul M]

>> One needs access to read this nature-paper

nope, full version available here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842210/


>> To change the topic completely, it would be wonderful if resident molecular biologists and biochemists of the forum could contact Prof. Lalji Singh and invite him to BRF to give us his insight.

that would indeed be wonderful.

[RajeshA]

Shiv ji,

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 08365.html

India has been underrepresented in genome-wide surveys of human variation. We analyse 25 diverse groups in India to provide strong evidence for two ancient populations, genetically divergent, that are ancestral to most Indians today. One, the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI), is genetically close to Middle Easterners, Central Asians, and Europeans, whereas the other, the ‘Ancestral South Indians’ (ASI), is as distinct from ANI and East Asians as they are from each other. By introducing methods that can estimate ancestry without accurate ancestral populations, we show that ANI ancestry ranges from 39–71% in most Indian groups, and is higher in traditionally upper caste and Indo-European speakers. Groups with only ASI ancestry may no longer exist in mainland India. However, the indigenous Andaman Islanders are unique in being ASI-related groups without ANI ancestry. Allele frequency differences between groups in India are larger than in Europe, reflecting strong founder effects whose signatures have been maintained for thousands of years owing to endogamy. We therefore predict that there will be an excess of recessive diseases in India, which should be possible to screen and map genetically.

One needs access to read this nature-paper... The gist of the content is, most of Indians since 40,000 YBP belong to a genetic group which the authors call ANI (Ancestral North Indian). They Ancestral South Indian (ASI) group, which might be present in India before ANI replaced it, is now found only in some tribes living in some islands of Andaman and Nicobar. Rest of mainland India is populated by ANI stock for at least past 40,000 years.

For most of this time, the ANI stock has been mostly "endogamous" and there is not much influx of outside genes seen in resident ANI population of Indian subcontinent.

Publication Date: September 24, 2009
By David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh
Reconstructing Indian population history: Nature

Reconstructing Indian population history @Harvard "Full Download"