Bharat Rakshak

Sachin wrote: Can we ask Putin to stop the war, asks CJI Ramana while hearing plea on Indian students stranded in Ukraine. This is a statement made by Chief Justice of India . And we can understand the legal position in India; when two other countries are on war.

Sachin, from your link, this is his full statement and it does not convey the meaning you and others are claiming:

"What can we do in this matter? Tomorrow, you will ask us to issue orders to Putin...Can we ask Putin to stop the war? We have full sympathy and concern with the students. The government of India is doing its job," CJI NV Ramana said on Thursday.

Not a big fan of justice-activism in india, but let us not start being fake-news peddlers or spread around idiotic headline writer’ junk

This time the CJI seem supportive of GoI

pravula wrote:

Sachin wrote: An exit control stamp is only to allow a person to leave the shores of India. It is not a guarantee for any thing else. That stamp does not mean all the passport holders problems would be sorted out free of cost and to the full satisfaction of the passport holder. These folks also got a VISA from Ukraine stamped on their passports. With your logic, the VISA provider also has some responsibility on handling people who they allowed inside?

To be brutally honest; the attitude shown by many of these daaktar/injeneer wannabes seems show a sense of entitlement and a false hope that their money power should get them all benefits. A few cannot board the planes without their pets . Are they on some college excursion or in some life threatening situation??

I am sorry, but does the exit control stamp prevent people from leaving India? If Yes, then that means the state has subsumed responsibility from individuals, saying "I know better than you". So who pays if the govt is wrong? They need to walk the talk...

Strange logic.

If the traveler fails his exams, spends all his money on gambling and has none left to buy food, or runs into any imaginable contingency, the GoI has to hold his hand, and take care of everything, because of the exit control stamp?

The exit control stamp is given after the officer makes sure you have valid documentation, and that you are not some wanted criminal. That’s it.

Virtually no government in the world does as much as GoI to look after its citizens stranded in war zones. That should tell you that there is no standard of “government responsibility” to do this, and GoI is going far above & beyond the norm.

Tell you what. Next time you are in the US and a policeman stops you to check your license & registration & your intoxication status, why don’t you pick a fight with him, “you think you are better than me? Then look after me like I was a helpless useless baby!” You will get your wish, but probably in the policeman’s “big house.”

Cyrano wrote:
…

Indian passport on page 2 says
"THESE ARE TO REQUEST AND REQUIRE IN THE NAME OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF INDIA ALL THOSE WHOM IT MAY CONCERN TO ALLOW THE BEARER TO PASS FREELY WITHOUT LET OR HINDERANCE, AND TO AFFORD HIM OR HER, EVERY ASSISTANCE AND PROTECTION OF WHICH HE OR SHE MAY STAND IN NEED"
- "BY ORDER OF THE PRESIDENT OF REPUBLIC OF INDIA"

…

The request for assistance to the bearer, if read in isolation, doesn’t specify who is being asked to provide the assistance.

Based on the “allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance” part, I had always interpreted this request as being addressed to foreign officials, and not as a commitment by GoI.

If there was a commitment by the GoI, the document (passport) would state that. Like the one on the currency.

Seems like Javelin missiles have been very effective in Ukraine.

300 Shots Fired, 280 Russian Tanks Gone: US Missiles In Ukrainian Hands

Asset of both Russia and US fled the country.

"The head of the State Duma Volodin said that Zelensky fled to Poland. Already from Lviv."

Murthy garu,
The two important words are REQUEST and REQUIRE. I always thought REQUEST was addressed to foreign officials and REQUIRE to Indian officials at our borders and Indian missions abroad.
I need to dig up what the intent behind that sentence really is.

Russian Su-25 was shot down and Mi-8 was subsequently shot down in rescue attempt. Not sure how you can make out mi-8 but apparently the rotor is visible.

https://twitter.com/osinttechnical/stat ... 86785?s=21

Zynda wrote:Seems like Javelin missiles have been very effective in Ukraine.

Am sure it is, but can you post some links so we can check it out ? You have already posted a random gif with lots of kill claims. Please make sure to provide some vetting before posting

^^Added links to both of my posts...

hnair wrote:
Not a big fan of justice-activism in india, but let us not start being fake-news peddlers or spread around idiotic headline writer’ junk

This time the CJI seem supportive of GoI

I read the article and you are right. But I have a larger question to any Legal experts. Is it the role of Judiciary to get involved in such matters

They seem to get involved in things like factory closures, oxygen demand, cricket and now foreign affairs etc.. is this even their Role? And how they have time to get to hear such cases? I hear the backlog in courts is huge

A Euromaidan report and another from NDTV can hardly be deemed neutral

Zynda wrote:^^Added links to both of my posts...

John wrote:Russian Su-25 was shot down and Mi-8 was subsequently shot down in rescue attempt. Not sure how you can make out mi-8 but apparently the rotor is visible.

https://twitter.com/osinttechnical/stat ... 86785?s=21

To what are the Russian aircrafts falling prey to? Stinger missiles? Or are Ukrainian SAM/AAA units are still operating?

anishns wrote:A Euromaidan report and another from NDTV can hardly be deemed neutral

Zynda wrote:^^Added links to both of my posts...

Didn't say they were neutral...just posting a different POV. In fact, in my Euromaidan post, I expressed scepticism over the numbers reported.

IndraD wrote: with kievv surrounded by Russian troops?

Why would zelenski remain in Kiev. Especially when it can fall at any time.

Zynda wrote:

John wrote:Russian Su-25 was shot down and Mi-8 was subsequently shot down in rescue attempt. Not sure how you can make out mi-8 but apparently the rotor is visible.

https://twitter.com/osinttechnical/stat ... 86785?s=21

To what are the Russian aircrafts falling prey to? Stinger missiles? Or are Ukrainian SAM/AAA units are still operating?

No idea Ukr are being tight lipped on it but few footages have shown them firing stingers and igla. These do look like manpad kills as there have been no mention of SAM launches. Apparently another two more got shot down trying to see serial # on this, by presence of fire extinguisher looks like they tried to rescue the pilot.

https://youtu.be/sqLJJpfj0O
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/ ... r_russian/

Added: So far 3 Su-25s in one day

@ANI
#RussiaUkraineConflict | Supreme Court says that it's unfortunate that we have not learned from past mistakes and still resort to war. We don't have much say but there is anxiety about students.
11:59 am · 4 Mar 2022

IndraD wrote:notice how US is cancelling Russians, war is not against Putin or Russia. It is against Russians.Russian cancer patients, cats, people,students..there is no limit to shamelessness! This is new US of A.

It's important to keep your biases out while analyzing war time scenarios. The reason usa or Western powers would ban Russians is too create domestic pressure against Putin and at the same time satisfy your local electorate that you are doing more than enough. India has also blocked Pakistani visa and travel during difficult times but that doesn't mean India is going after every Pakistani.

These are standard tactics to coerce your opponent into submission without putting boots on the ground.

preachy hypocrites

Cyrano wrote:Murthy garu,
The two important words are REQUEST and REQUIRE. I always thought REQUEST was addressed to foreign officials and REQUIRE to Indian officials at our borders and Indian missions abroad.

This is all a tortuous misinterpretation of the language. ALL of it is intended for agents of foreign governments. I have besides me the passports of four countries. They all have this language, one of them making the statement far more explicit, e.g. the UK one states 'Requests and Requires in the name of HM the queen...' . Japan is more polite and only uses 'request'.

Are we going to individually parse all of those differently ? The language is all outbound. The social contract between the people of India and its government is the constitution. For an Indian government officer the passport is an ID, nothing more. He/she doesn't read the document "Oh it says here I need to do something for you, thank God, if you didn't point that out I would not know how to treat you here".

Here's US policy on evacuation - the evacuee signs a promissory note to pay back the cost, typically equal to a full fare economy flight.
Information for U.S. Citizens about a U.S. Government-Assisted Evacuation

U.S. law requires that departure assistance to private U.S. citizens or third country nationals be provided “on a reimbursable basis to the maximum extent practicable.” By taking a U.S. government coordinated transport, evacuees are obligated to repay the cost of their transportation. The amount billed to evacuees is based on the cost of a full fare economy flight, or comparable alternate transportation, to the designated destination(s) that would have been charged immediately prior to the events giving rise to the evacuation. Because different evacuation transports may go to different destinations, the cost of one transport may be different than another. We encourage people to leave on the first transport they are able and eligible to board.

In the context of Ukraine, US citizens are advised:
Ukraine: Do not travel

The U.S. government will not be able to evacuate U.S. citizens from Ukraine.

Here's what US policy states on what it can and cannot do:
What the Department of State Can and Can't Do in a Crisis
This answers both questions directly - will the GOTUS save its people, and who pays for an evacuation that is arranged.

UK and Japan stated essentially the same thing - "we cannot evacuate. Leave immediately by any means possible. Remember how it was in Afghanistan a few months ago ?"

What the Indian government accomplished here is nothing short of jaw dropping - negotiating a temporary ceasefire among two warring parties to evacuate its own, 4500km away.

People have an outsized idea of the states ability to come save them abroad. It is hard for a western national to get consular access in Japan easily when they're prosecuted, and basically impossible in China. And we are talking consular access, not evacuation.

When you're outside the borders of your country, you're essentially on your own. If residing someplace and not merely visiting, it is in your best interest to register yourself with the nearest consular mission, and follow their advisories. People are influenced by movies too much. If anything what India did in pausing a war to evacuate its people is the stuff they make movies of.

https://twitter.com/FirstSquawk/status/ ... 2205769731

First Squawk
@FirstSquawk
SHELL BUYS RUSSIAN URALS CRUDE OIL CARGO FROM TRAFIGURA EX-BALTIC PORTS IN WINDOW AT DATED BRENT MINUS $28.50 A BARREL - TRADERS

SWIFT blockade, LOL Shell profit through the roof

A very interesting analysis of the war, better than any other I have come across so far:

https://twitter.com/PhrozenFlame17/stat ... 0091875337

Transnitria now seeks independence from Moldova for entering the EU.

The US seems to have late realization of secondary effects of shutting Russian oil on US gas prices and US dollar dominance, but that horse seems to have left the barn, going by the white house's statements.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... il-imports

India has a lot of long-term opportunities in this upcoming economic volatility combined with global political realignment. Gas prices in the USA seem to have to gone above 5$ going by some tweets.

https://twitter.com/BuzzPatterson/statu ... _bjc8pAAAA

This is all a tortuous misinterpretation of the language. ALL of it is intended for agents of foreign governments. I have besides me the passports of four countries. They all have this language, one of them making the statement far more explicit, e.g. the UK one states 'Requests and Requires in the name of HM the queen...' . Japan is more polite and only uses 'request'.

My reading of the highlighted part is different, it's ambiguous whom it's (exclusively) addressing, any source that leads to your assertion? Looks like India retained what haughty language UK had and adjusted HMTQ to President post independence. A French passport has no such language at all. Don't know what a US passport says. Mostly agree with the rest. What India has done in Yemen, Afg, China and elsewhere during covid break out and now in Ukraine is exemplary and unique. Anyone airlifted and criticizing needs to be given a dunce cap and 100 situps holding ears.

Cheap Chinese tires blamed for Russian convoy unable to reach Kyiv

Ministry of Defence issued an update revealing that a convoy of Russian tanks advancing on the capital of Ukraine remained 30km from the centre of the city having made little progress over the previous three days because of “Ukranian resistance, mechanical breakdown and congestion.”

Karl Muth, an academic based at the University of Chicago and a self-described tire expert, took to Twitter to set out a theory blaming cheap Chinese tires for the slow advance of Russian vehicles

“This is a tire I first encountered in Somalia and Sudan. it’s a bad Chinese copy of the excellent Michelin XZL military tire design,” he continued

Surprised they missed the chance of dragging India and UAE along as well.
"Cheap chinese tires, bad Indian tech support, worse UAE oil and worst Russian servicemen"

Massa should sanction Massa for not making its stance clear on international rules based order. Massa is siding with Russia by not respecting Massa's sanctions against Russia, by continuing to receive massive energy aid and oil aid from Russia. 10% of all fuel aid received by Massa is from Russia. 28% of all oil aid for Hawaii is from Russia.

My sources tell me that Biden administration is considering imposing CAATSA on Massa and Hawaii

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pressu ... 022-03-03/

In these days of Wokism and Cancel culture. The good Colonel is really brave & bold with his interview

The Economic and Tech sanctions in Russia are likely to bite deep and hard

Even I am surprised by the scale.

Everyone from random PC game makers to companies like Salesforce and Ford are completely stopping their russian operations. This is going to become a massive pain economy-wide. If you dont have access to cloud services, you cannot even conduct meetings or send emails these days. Dont even get me started on how aam abduls are going to maintain their foreign made cars and automobiles.

Cheen has had steps to counter this. They make every foreign company have a local JV partner (read local partner who steals all the tech) and then Chindigenize the technology. Sanctions like these are likely going to have no effect on cheen. Probably cheen strategists are studying the Ukraine invasion to see how Taiwan invasion is likely to go.

^ Why should China invade Taiwan? Unlike Ukraine, the world recognizes China as the only China and Taiwan is not part of the UN.

Cyrano wrote:

This is all a tortuous misinterpretation of the language. ALL of it is intended for agents of foreign governments. I have besides me the passports of four countries. They all have this language, one of them making the statement far more explicit, e.g. the UK one states 'Requests and Requires in the name of HM the queen...' . Japan is more polite and only uses 'request'.

My reading of the highlighted part is different, it's ambiguous whom it's (exclusively) addressing, any source that leads to your assertion? Looks like India retained what haughty language UK had and adjusted HMTQ to President post independence. A French passport has no such language at all. Don't know what a US passport says. Mostly agree with the rest. What India has done in Yemen, Afg, China and elsewhere during covid break out and now in Ukraine is exemplary and unique. Anyone airlifted and criticizing needs to be given a dunce cap and 100 situps holding ears.

Boss, you're stating that the passport contains language telling an agent of the issuing government how to treat a citizen of that very country, i.e. "request is for them, require is for us". The UK passport is an example of that exact language, but both directed at the other guy. And all others just refer to the other guy. Sure the UK one is pretty haughty, and I'm happy if we remove the copycat language and make it more polite like the Japanese one.

The contract between the citizen and government of the country is not listed in the passport, but the constitution. The language in the passport is for 'the other side'. I'm just saying there's no point in wasting effort trying to parse GoIs responsibilities out of that blurb. The only thing an Indian agent does with an Indian passport is identify you with it.

As for ECR/ECNR stamps, it's for GoI to help a person understand that there are places where their wellbeing might be at risk, BEFORE one has exited. That's literally why it's an exit control stamp. Once exited, people are generally on their own, beyond access to consular services that depend on a lot of things.

The people complaining about how badly GoI treated them have no sense of context as to what happens to people stranded in warzones. Even the US has no ability to respond like a Bruce Willis movie. It's quite astonishing - and a reason for bhestern anger - that India can manage an airlift like this, including having so much clout as to have Putin's ear to negotiate an evacuation pause at short notice.

Cyrano wrote:Murthy garu,
The two important words are REQUEST and REQUIRE. I always thought REQUEST was addressed to foreign officials and REQUIRE to Indian officials at our borders and Indian missions abroad.
I need to dig up what the intent behind that sentence really is.

Please carry on elsewhere.

Guys this is getting ridiculous.
Please stop discussing India in this thread.

Indians abroad need to understand something, if the Indian government asks you to leave you should leave.
GOI gave warnings from 15 January and even reinforced them on 15 February.
Some flights were readied too.
After a war starts not much the Indian government can do especially in a war zone like Eastern Ukraine.

Maybe the government coming to the rescue creates an incentive to avoid warnings.
And dissing the government after getting rescued outs life of those not yet evacuated in jeopardy.
The pilots and aircrew also worked to evacuate the ungrateful duffers.
Shame on the media to give airtime to these whiners while still, evacuation is going on.
And it's NDTV that is at the forefront and Hindu in Chennai.



It would be good for all passport holders of all countries to understand these facts of life as the world is going into a different phase for the foreseeable future.

ramana wrote: It would be good for all passport holders of all countries to understand these facts of life as the world is going into a different phase for the foreseeable future.

+1001. Excellent point.

This entire situation can quickly turn out to become a nuclear war between the US+Europe vs. Russia because most of the US government (elected, appointed and bureaucracy) has not lived through the cold war years of the 1950s and 1960s, nor has institutional memory of it. There are some 4 million Indian origin people in the US, and I think, only 2 million would want to return to India.

vera_k wrote:^ Why should China invade Taiwan? Unlike Ukraine, the world recognizes China as the only China and Taiwan is not part of the UN.

Just a little OT but connected to Ukraine situation. There is some reporting on FNN that some of Senators and congressmen are considering tabling a bill in the COTUS. That will give China a pause. Probably the west is a little hard-pressed to take their eyes off of Russia-Ukraine. This will give them to organize logistics for the eventuality of China making a move on Taiwan.

great presentation by sudhir chaudhary from warsaw. I predict president putin will achieve all his strategic aims in ukraine. All this talk of putin is a war criminal lindsey graham the di*khead asking for putin,s murder tells me war is going well for russia.

As for the great ukraine army, students first hand accounts they were drinking and abusing indian students physically. Girls were not spared , beaten black and blue for no reason. almost all students saying the same things. soldiers asking for dollars from every student. This is the realty not the fake reality of western pimps in their so called media, just pathetic.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/world/russia-s ... 691272.htm

Approximately 8,000 Indians, mainly students, are stranded in Ukraine, Foreign Secretary Harsh Vardhan Shringla had said on Tuesday. "A total of 130 comfortable buses are ready to depart to Kharkov (Kharkiv) and Sumy from the Nekhoteyevka and Sudzha checkpoints in the Belgorod Region since 6 AM today in order to Rescue Indian students and citizens of other foreign states,” Colonel-General Mizintsev was quoted as saying by the state-owned TASS news agency.

Russia (Putin) is giving India (Modi) ample help. First the 6 hours pause and now this. Is the war going too good for Russia?

I am missing something big that is happening or missing something that had happened. Both Russia and the West are paying India too much attention.

SwamyG wrote:I am missing something big that is happening or missing something that had happened. Both Russia and the West are paying India too much attention.

This news is only in our Media. i am watching both western and RT and India is hardly mentioned.

Cyrano wrote:Many students in UKr may have education loans or parents debt. Instead of making them pay, GoI should get them to sign an undertaking to serve for 1 year in rural govt hospitals with basic remuneration. As doctors or support/admin staff as per their qualification. Link to aadhar & passport to track compliance. Or serve 1 year in our armed forces in suitable capacity on basic pay.

they all have to pass an India qualifying exam to qualify and work as doctors in India

very very few actually manage to do so.

until they qualify, they are professionally useless to anyone

One supposes that most of the ukranian wonders end up in the fast food industry or selling sarees, flipping either burgers or dupattas

Nausea Alert.

If you want to see firsthand the extent to which the US Democratic Party has already begun targeting India as an enemy state in their information war... watch this piece of rabid anti-Moscow hysteria.

https://youtu.be/vTSEQjH9QEU

This is a podcast by former Obama flunkey Ben Rhodes (of Benghazi fame) and one of his chimpoos, a brainless dittohead named Tommy Vietor.

Listen and learn all about how India is undemocratic, fascist, and a willing part of Putin's "coalition of the $hitty". Learn about how evil Modi "annexed Cashmere" and risked a war, too... so, no wonder India sympathizes with Putin doing the same thing in Ukraine.

As I said, Nausea Alert.

chetak wrote:

@PTI_News · 1h

Video appeal from Ukraine by Indian student, who is also village pradhan in UP’s Hardoi, lands her in trouble as officials say it will be probed how gram sabha bank account operated in her absence and if there were any financial irregularities

chetak wrote:

caught and bowled

auntie looks quite chastised onlee