Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Aug 2016 12:12

That's the problem with imports, the enemy probably has your data from the Vendor directly.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 24 Aug 2016 12:22

This calls for free stealth upgrades from DCNS.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 24 Aug 2016 12:27

Sjha gives a nice suggestion, and I kinda like it..

.From teeter..

Now that Scorpene design data is a public affair, perhaps India should also treat it as such? If you get what I mean?

Will · Post by **Will** » 24 Aug 2016 12:38

If it is proved that the leak was from the French end then they can kiss bye bye to the P5I( if it ever happens). The whole thing is really sad keeping in mind that the IN is interested in a Barracuda based SSN design. Alternatively, if the GOI and MOD is smart they can use this to arm twist the French into sharing all sort of tech and concessions.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Aug 2016 12:46

^^ This is a real bodyslam on the IN ( just when it looked like the Sub arm was coming back to scratch)
Is really in the realms of worst nightmare scenarios of IN and GoI!! Wonder how we will procedd from here. Would hate to be in the RM and CNS shoes right now

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 24 Aug 2016 13:00

Given that these leaks date back to 2011 I will not be surprised if our CI teams detected the chatter on this many moons back and alerted the folks who need to know about it. This may have required substantial changes to the systems and may be the real reason behind the delays.

kit · Post by **kit** » 24 Aug 2016 13:11

i suppose DCNS would have a liability clause built in with the IN / MOD .. this leak is going to be expensive for them

kit · Post by **kit** » 24 Aug 2016 13:12

the new line of subs would probably become the main stay instead of the scorpenes !

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Aug 2016 13:20

pushkar.bhat wrote:Given that these leaks date back to 2011 I will not be surprised if our CI teams detected the chatter on this many moons back and alerted the folks who need to know about it. This may have required substantial changes to the systems and may be the real reason behind the delays.

Possible. This may explain the cost escalation associated with the French sub.

The data stolen from the US cost the US a whole bunch, but it also triggered a next round of next-gen techs way ahead of time. IF the French/India lost the data in 2011, it is more than likely that the boats have been upgraded - at a huge cost.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 24 Aug 2016 13:47

NRao wrote:Possible. This may explain the cost escalation associated with the French sub.

The data stolen from the US cost the US a whole bunch, but it also triggered a next round of next-gen techs way ahead of time. IF the French/India lost the data in 2011, it is more than likely that the boats have been upgraded - at a huge cost.

If that is true, a big IF, then I only hope that DCNS was made to cough up for these "upgrades".

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Aug 2016 13:57

In case the cost escalation due to expensive upgrade from 2011 leak happened, dcns should have been the one to shoulder it not Bharatvarsh.

Hope there is possiblity of sueing the french over it and recovering all the money we've spent on scorpenes, plus sarkar should cancel 36 rafales deal as a protest immediately.

Otherwise we look like open to be conned by anyone. Any private western company takes money from chinese lets say 15% of platform sold to us and gives away all the secrets.

See how not only russians got the designs for french lhd but also got the money back with penalties.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 24 Aug 2016 14:03

If its the case that the leak happened from the French side, any guesses on why the data got leaked ?

1)French leaked it intentionally - to settle a score with india.
2)It was stolen or leaked by France's business competitors - Russia,Germany,UQ etc ?
3)It was stolen or leaked from French by those who are India's explicit enemies - China , Paki ?
4)It was stolen or leaked from French by those who are India's implicit enemies- the Massa-UQ combo?

My gut feeling: 4) or 1) or a combination of both is more possible.

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 24 Aug 2016 14:25

From Australian news:

However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.

The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.

It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 24 Aug 2016 14:42

It's funny.. leaked data being around by 2011 but the subs themselves barely ready even in 2016 !!

I don't think this leak will have a huge impact on INs operational use of the fleet when it's ready..

The bakis might have data on operational range of the sub, it's noise levels and it's Intel gathering frequencies, yet they have to actually detect the sub in the Arabian sea to do something about it..
Their job might become easier but it does not mean that the whole scorpene fleet suddenly becomes useless..

Paki ASW capability is generally crap..

I also think that the "frequencies" and noise levels can be adjusted/fine tuned over the course of time in form of upgrades to make the leaked data a non sensitive operational issue..

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 24 Aug 2016 14:42

Manish_Sharma wrote:In case the cost escalation due to expensive upgrade from 2011 leak happened, dcns should have been the one to shoulder it not Bharatvarsh.

Hope there is possiblity of sueing the french over it and recovering all the money we've spent on scorpenes, plus sarkar should cancel 36 rafales deal as a protest immediately.

Otherwise we look like open to be conned by anyone. Any private western company takes money from chinese lets say 15% of platform sold to us and gives away all the secrets.

See how not only russians got the designs for french lhd but also got the money back with penalties.

I know this will constitute speculation but perhaps DNCS has already been penalized and the negotiations were about what constituted replacement and what should be treated as a major spec change. They said we replace X1 with X2 and its equal but different. We said no we need X1 to be replaced by a Super Duper Z1 within the same budgets. They said no. We said OK lets both walk half way.. Kabhi HA kabhi Na meant we had to live with delays and more lead-time before the new systems were tested, accepted and integrated.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2016 14:50

whether artillery or anything else, massa is always against domestic projects unless it benefits.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 24 Aug 2016 15:01

Its perfectly possible that our guys caught the wind of the leak long ago and the damage is already taken care of. But going by the things I have seen with this and other contracts we have signed I don't think there is any clause to punish French OEM for this kind of thing.

Though I have not seen their statement directly, but its being said that DNCS is implying that the leaks happened on Indian side. I don't think such statement would have come from them if the leak happened from their side and it was known previously to India as well. IMO, if the matter was known and is taken care of, both sides will hush hush the matter in coming days rather than blaming each other. Let's see what happens in coming days.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 24 Aug 2016 17:15

The damage has been done. The only way out to mitigate this disaster and avoid financial loss is to transfer these subs to coastal navy for policing instead of IN?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 24 Aug 2016 17:33

JayS wrote:Though I have not seen their statement directly, but its being said that DNCS is implying that the leaks happened on Indian side. I don't think such statement would have come from them if the leak happened from their side and it was known previously to India as well. IMO, if the matter was known and is taken care of, both sides will hush hush the matter in coming days rather than blaming each other. Let's see what happens in coming days.

Of course they would. Why would they want to take the blame? The Australian which has published these papers itself claims that the leak happened in France and involved a former FRENCH employee.

DCNF wishes to shift the blame on us and for good measure award them the contract for three more Scorpenes and compensation.

kit · Post by **kit** » 24 Aug 2016 17:47

more specifically a former french navy captain assigned to DCNS ..and who later resigned from commission .. for God knows what !

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Aug 2016 18:06

Is this payback for the Rafale non-purchase?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 24 Aug 2016 18:14

Happened in 2011, probably because of choosing Rafale.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Aug 2016 18:22

Vivek K wrote:Is this payback for the Rafale non-purchase?

Supposedly, the theft occurred in 2011.

Just took a quick peek at google: first scorpene laid 2009, cost escalation seems to be around 2009. In 2011 IN exercised the 3 options.

So, the cost escalation took place way before this theft. And, on the contrary, India opted to buy three more of the boats the year the theft took place.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 24 Aug 2016 21:43

My spider sense tells me this could be warning shot across Modi's bow for Balochistan statement. They are saying they know our deepest secrets.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 24 Aug 2016 21:54

Speculations galore !!!
supposedly leaked in 2011 !!

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 24 Aug 2016 22:22

The theft took place in 2011 supposedly by a French Navy officer on deputation to DCNS.

If the French did not know about this theft until now that the Australian newspaper has published the documents , it is incompetence.

If the French knew about the theft, say in 2011 or shortly thereafter, especially as it relates to the Indian submarines,and did not inform India about it, then it is deception on the part of the French. India must get to know as to when the French became aware of the theft.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Aug 2016 22:32

Not sure if french captain rumor has been confirmed. Not really surprised here, DCNS and French navy employ contractors/consultants who are born in gulf or african region without proper security clearance , some of them even work on nuclear submarines. A lot of people have raised red flags over this.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 24 Aug 2016 22:33

@ idev ji : this is assuming desi Intel is manned by hacks and they came to know after Aussie paper made the shocking revelation..

I don't think so.

Espionage, counter espionage, leaks these things happen all the time.only a few get reported..

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Aug 2016 22:43

If this information was accessed by India's enemies, then why would they let India know of this? Knowing about the leak, IN can (or has) implement changes in sensors and frequencies making the info gained worthless.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 24 Aug 2016 22:48

nirav wrote:@ idev ji : this is assuming desi Intel is manned by hacks and they came to know after Aussie paper made the shocking revelation..

I don't think so.

Espionage, counter espionage, leaks these things happen all the time.only a few get reported..

If we take news reports at face value, then Parrikar was woken up at midnight India time and given the news about the Australian newspaper publishing the story. If India was aware that the theft had taken place years ago I doubt that this would be the case. And I dont think that it is necessary to go through the charade of saying that the Minister was woken up at midnight to give him this breaking news.

Also in addition to specific details about India's scorpene submarines the documents contain information relating to DCNS'S submarine sales efforts with Malaysia and Chile as well as the Mistral sale to Russia. Those specific files would never have reached India. So the theft definitely happened from the French side.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 24 Aug 2016 23:00

^^ Leak is just to take the shine away from first submarine to be inducted in 20 years. Would finmeccanica as supplier of torpedos have access to thales manuals?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 25 Aug 2016 00:10

ldev wrote:
nirav wrote:@ idev ji : this is assuming desi Intel is manned by hacks and they came to know after Aussie paper made the shocking revelation..

I don't think so.

Espionage, counter espionage, leaks these things happen all the time.only a few get reported..
If we take news reports at face value, then Parrikar was woken up at midnight India time and given the news about the Australian newspaper publishing the story. If India was aware that the theft had taken place years ago I doubt that this would be the case. And I dont think that it is necessary to go through the charade of saying that the Minister was woken up at midnight to give him this breaking news.

Also in addition to specific details about India's scorpene submarines the documents contain information relating to DCNS'S submarine sales efforts with Malaysia and Chile as well as the Mistral sale to Russia. Those specific files would never have reached India. So the theft definitely happened from the French side.

Thats a big IF.
what the truth is and whats let out to the media on such a matter will be totally different.

its a ripe topic however for churning out CTs.
For all we know Sh.Parrikar went back to sleep muttering some konkani cuss words !

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 25 Aug 2016 00:31

Wonder why he said it seems "hacking".

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 25 Aug 2016 00:45

JayS wrote:Wonder why he said it seems "hacking".

Vocabulary issues, especially on IT-Vity terms. 90% of the country would probably do the same. Of course it is possible that it was a genuine hack rather than an intentional/inadvertent leak as well.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 25 Aug 2016 02:27

If not anything, people who are behind this should be hunted down..so that next time anyone does something of this order ..they know the rewards..

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 25 Aug 2016 02:50

France has too many of the peacefuls! We should treat them just like TSP and the Panda!

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 25 Aug 2016 03:05

I think damage has been done. More importantly DCNS knew about the hack and chose not to share the details with its prime customer. They technically sent IN Sub numbers back to what we had in 2009.

French are acting like frogs and showing their true color. Make an example out of DCNS by making sure they donot get a single penny from Australian contract.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 25 Aug 2016 03:34

Another point to note is that how did DCNS manage to note such critical data when these submarines were being built in India? I understand DCNS would know as it is making it but still there would be changes and how did they manage to document all these and take out of India?

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 25 Aug 2016 04:09

quotes from those who should know what they are talking about:

Submarine paper leak
SUJAN DUTTA

"Negative," says Adm. Vishnu Bhagwat, the former navy chief. "When, how and where you deploy and operate submarines is up to you and all this data leak means nothing because the information is available publicly anyway."

Ironically, Bhagwat, who was dismissed by the then defence minister, George Fernandes, in the Vajpayee government and reinstated to his rank by the court, had argued against the proposal to build the Scorpene class of submarines.

"That was one of the reasons (for the action that Fernandes took against me). But you need to understand two things: why submarines are important and how decisions are taken," Bhagwat said, and went on to explain.

In the tropical waters around India's coasts, said Bhagwat, the laws of physics favour the use of submarines. "The total internal reflection of sound when there are thermal layers between 32 degrees and 24 degrees makes it virtually impossible for a submarine to be detected if it is 30 to 50 metres under the surface in summers and 100 metres in winters," he said.

"Not by satellites, not by surface platforms (such as ships) and not by aircraft. In Indian waters, submarines defy both surveillance and detection," he said.

It is important to record these words from the admiral because he is speaking like a professional soldier-sailor despite having been at bitter odds with a former BJP-led dispensation.

Adm. Prakash lives in a modest home in Goa now. "Somebody needs to get hold of the papers and analyse them. 'Restricted' is the lowest form of classification. I do not really know the details of the issue," he said when contacted by The Telegraph.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Aug 2016 05:40

Adm. Bhagwat is right about thermal isoclines in Indian Ocean.
This was the case even in WWII when German subs lurked in the waters of the Indian Ocean.

BTW, Indian Ocean is the biggest heatsink for solar radiation if you believe the NASA ocean thermal maps.

This is a case of economic warfare to prevent the Aussies from buying DCNS subs.

That DCNS did not brief India till now has to have a penalty.