Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 06 Sep 2012 14:21

Chill... This is their source data

As we all know it was correct 10 years ago

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 06 Sep 2012 14:52

This article is hogwash, Prithvi, Agni 1 and 2 are full inducted, Agni 3 is in final stages of being inducted. Incremental develoments haven't and won't stop, we do have among the most accurate Ballistic Missiles on the planet all because of incremental changes. Doesn't mean we don't have older block missiles. These silly articles are written by people who don't know anything. However, there is a massive cloak on all nuke related work, missiles, deployments etc are closely guarded secrets, we too can only begin to speculate.
For all we know we have a few hundreds of Prithvis and 3 to 5 dozen missiles of Agni 1/2 already, I am sure we also have atleast 2 dozen Agni-3 by now.

I think Shaurya and Sagarika should our key tactical missiles to take out long range over the horizon radars, critical command targets, critical installations etc. We need atleast 800-1200 of these. Nirbhay too should be mass produced, atleast 3000 of these would be nice to have. Being subsonic it shouldn't be very expensive. Prahar we need 6000+ missiles.

mody · Post by **mody** » 06 Sep 2012 15:09

Is there any news about the Akash-ER (extended range) project? Is the project alive or has it been scrapped?

I my opinion, the development should go ahead as fast as possible and when completed and the missile tested, the IAF should place order for additional 6-8 squadrons of the Akash-ER missiles. The new squadrons can be deployed to protect the air bases in the western sector. 1 squadron may also be deployed in the andaman-nicobar chain.
Given the relative low price of the missile, the Akash should form the low tier of the air defence network.

Another 14-16 squadrons of MR-SAM should be ordered to complete the IAF theater level air defence network and replace all the old and obsolete squadrons of Pechora and other vintage Sams.

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 06 Sep 2012 19:59

Last Test Failure of Brahmos due to Malfunction of one subsystem

Recently, on 29th July 2012, a developmental flight test was carried out from Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur with 25 new components and subsystems produced in India substituting those made from Russia. In this test, except for one subsystem, all other subsystems and components have performed to the requirement.

Malfunction of one subsystem resulted in increase in velocity of the missile, crossing the limit and leading to aborting the mission. The defect has been rectified after analysis. Further development flight tests will be conducted as a measure of self-reliance.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 06 Sep 2012 20:17

Increase in velocity is a malfunction ????

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 06 Sep 2012 20:35

^^^ increase in velocity at wrong stage could be a malfunction

Uttam · Post by **Uttam** » 06 Sep 2012 20:37

krishnan wrote:Increase in velocity is a malfunction ????

I am very much a newbie on this side of the aisle. The article however, clearly says the velocity increased to an unsustainable level, which probably would have disintegrated the missile anyway. So yes, that is a malfunction.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Sep 2012 20:46

Krishnan et al, Flight testing is very important for missiles. One can expect atleast one failure of each sub-system by itself and some due to cascading effects. If there is a major redesign to any sub-system then expect one in that arena. Minor mods should not result in failures. To be successful there has to be atleast two consequetive successess of same configuration. And atleast ten successful flights of the type.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 07 Sep 2012 03:09

pentaiah wrote:Nirbhay engine

36МТ
Development – NPO Saturn.
Serial production – NPO Saturn.

Used as a sustainer engine in aviation tactical ballistic missiles of type Kh-59M developed by GosMKB (State Engineering Design Bureau) Raduga JSC.

Technical features of the engine:

double-circuit twin-shaft turbojetengine with coaxial shafts with low and high pressure cascades;
high pressure cascade – diagonal axis compressor and single-stage axis turbine;
low pressure cascade – single-stage ventilator with wide-chord blades and a single-stage axis turbine;
annular combustion chamber;
autonomous oil system;
electro-hydraulic adjustment system;
inbuilt electric generator with 4 kW.

Key Characteristics of the Engine:

Thrust at limiting point, kgf, up to 450
Specific fuel rate at limiting point, kg/kgf*h 0,71
Dry mass, kg 82
Default mass, kg 100
Overall dimensions:
Maximum diameter, mm 330
Maximum length, mm 850

Is it confirmed Nirbhay would use Russian engine?

What about MTCR?

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 07 Sep 2012 04:32

Any deviation from design parameters is a malfunction

If your car accelates more than it should for a given displacement of your accelarator pedal, even though it feels good it's bad design
Just an analogy

Even easier way to explain

If the increase in velocity is due to gravity it is a mal function

If the increase in velocity is due to change in direction from intended ( paki to PRC) it's a malfunction

Remember velocity = displacement + direction

Change could be because of any one of them or both

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 07 Sep 2012 04:38

With Indian design changes we will make the engine to conform to the range requirements of MCTR

We always respect international treaties and Russia is sure of our technical competency to make changes as long as the engineers and designers are given in triplicate the MCTR rules we will duplicate successfully

Rest all is/are assured

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Sep 2012 04:48

MTCR is not a treaty, and does not impose a legal binding to signatory. The objective is anti-proliferation. So, a responsible non-proliferation behavior is all that matters.

Unless a protest comes by way of India themselves protesting like CAG or some mysorra reddy

or BR itself

, then Russia can think about MTCR.

A bilateral approach is all that matters.

pentaiah wrote:Remember velocity = displacement + direction

So, send nirbhay from ferozpur to lawhore and return back to ferozpur, and we do this 10 times would strategically (mission wise) displace only the distance between ferozpur-lawhore!

/jk

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2012 07:10

it has been announced long ago that we signed a deal for around 200 nirbhay engines to start with.....followed by license production.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 07 Sep 2012 09:47

SaiK wrote:MTCR is not a treaty, and does not impose a legal binding to signatory. The objective is anti-proliferation. So, a responsible non-proliferation behavior is all that matters.

Unless a protest comes by way of India themselves protesting like CAG or some mysorra reddy or BR itself , then Russia can think about MTCR.

A bilateral approach is all that matters.

pentaiah wrote:Remember velocity = displacement direction
So, send nirbhay from ferozpur to lawhore and return back to ferozpur, and we do this 10 times would strategically (mission wise) displace only the distance between ferozpur-lawhore! /jk

It should sound like ferozpur....ferozpur....ferozpur while moving to ferozpur from lawhore. And the same way it would sound lawhore...lawhore...lawhore...lawhore. And before hit, it would sound ups...u left no choice.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 07 Sep 2012 10:57

Re: Brahmos in Arunachal--unless I'm missing something, the only reports I see are from Chinese sources published in order to work up a whine. Given the condition of roads and airfields, there is little chance of basing Brahmos in Arunachal. However important points inside Tibet including Lhasa are well within range from Assam and Sikkim, so there should be no need to base Bramhos in Arunachal anyway.

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Sep 2012 11:00

Perhaps better this way . Take an ambassador car , strap on a nitro booster and see how far it does .. It does go fast .. But man it broke down .. Why ? Design and structural limitation .
And anyway that hypersonic wave rider did disintegrate after reach high Mach levels.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Sep 2012 12:05

RajD wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Man,we have posters getting their langots in twist because of this nonsense printed in IT....phew!!!
Oh! No sir, not at all. Just wanted to point out another instance of idiosyncrasy and level to which these so called prestigious magazines would stoop to.

RajD, nothing personal against you...was simply pointing out the harm such articles do to impressionable minds. I remember reading such a series way back in mid-90s and forming an opinion about DRDO and various other aspects of Indian MIC.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Sep 2012 14:59

Roht Ji,

Take that as a case of Hathi Chale bazar Kutta Bhoke hazar. Nothing that you say, will have an impact on the DDM. People who need to know, know what needs to be known. As long as our capabilities are enough to make sure that we are able to preserve / enforce peace and tranquility on our borders. We have nothing to worry.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 07 Sep 2012 18:54

Would that mean, we'll have to limit the range to 300km like brahmos?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2012 18:56

an engine will run as long as there is fuel. so it all depends how much fuel we carry and the fuel consumption of engine.
personally I dont see anything in the nirbhay controlling its range down to 300km ...it being our own product with just a imported engine we are not subject to any MTCR crap.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Sep 2012 22:06

DRDO: Intercontinental ballistic missiles well within reach

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 08 Sep 2012 02:31

GD,
We are not but russia is a founding member for MTCR and takes its responsibilities seriously. I doubt that we'll (or we can) use any russian engine for Nirbhay if it has range more than 300KM. It'll have to be an Indian engine, another month and we'll know more about it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Sep 2012 06:28

indranilroy wrote:DRDO: Intercontinental ballistic missiles well within reach..the decision to deploy MIRVs would be a political one...
“In the Agni-5, the government didn’t say, ‘we have a threat perception… I need a long-range missile.’ It was the DRDO that said that we now have the capability to enhance the Agni-3 to 5,000 kilometres, and so the government sanctioned the project.”

mmm... what political one. spending billions without any political agenda? the political agenda here is the no-first-strike that includes no-first-announce.

good enough reason, as DRDO capabilities are heart and sole people's wish. They have to just show their capability, and we shall vote for the gov that is focused on both military and economic growth... DRDO should do what it is doing and plus more.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2012 08:25

this is not a solid rocket engine we are talking about but a turbofan engine that will run for hours if fed fuel and air. there is no inherent range limiter to such an engine.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... eView.html

As for the engine India has struck a deal with Russia for transfer of technology of the Russian Saturn 36MT engine.

New Delhi also has a deal with Moscow which allows it access to the high-precision signal of Moscow's Glonass satellite navigation system

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2012 08:26

TOT might mean we make the engine here locally under supervision of saturn engineers and using production eqpt they use, but not import more than a couple for tests, that way Rus can wash its hands off the mtcr sale commitments saying nothing is being sold.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Sep 2012 08:33

MTCR fails in our case since A5++. If it is not Nirbhay, it implies there is something else, that can not be controlled by any other regime against India. So, it fails to stand the argument.

The reason A5 preempts all fool-books is something that needs much kudos to DRDO team. BTW, on first principles, we are to demonstrate it.. nothing can stop us now even sending A5 to moon. OTOH, if we have a constructive policy, looking for a great power relationship, and on the side, remove and throw the existing form of corrupt governance to a more stable corruption society, then no treaty nor power can shake us to what we want to achieve.

Even the khaans will sell us the core engines.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Sep 2012 08:40

MTCR is to prevent jugad type of powers from developing stuff to threaten the Waste and Tel Aviv.
Once you develop sat launchers its moot point.

For a long time US experts used to monitor programs all over the world and come up with list of materials to be prohibited for export/transfer. It used to be funny when they claimed Kalam in one week visit memorized the Scout design and came up with the ASLV!
Don't know to cry or laugh.

Laugh for that would make him a prodigy in memory. Cry for it belittles the ISRO work over the years.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 08 Sep 2012 09:02

Dr. Tim was once such luminary to unequivocally profess Kalam visiting Huntsville Alabama and replicate scout right here on this forum

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Sep 2012 10:11

Not huntsville but wallops island

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Sep 2012 13:33

MTCR & NSG were specifically framed to target India. Both lost their relevance, as far as India went, by the 90s. Today, efforts are on to draft India into Wassenaar Agreement, Australia Group, MTCR etc even by amending rules. No one talks of MTCR wrt India.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 08 Sep 2012 13:54

Singha wrote:New Delhi also has a deal with Moscow which allows it access to the high-precision signal of Moscow's Glonass satellite navigation system

Per Ajai Shukla, Moscow is dithering on providing India access to the high precision signals. My guess is that they will hem and haw and delay the decision by years. Need to get our own. IRNSS with 20m resolution will not cut it for long range precision Nirbhay attacks.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Sep 2012 13:59

ramana wrote: It used to be funny when they claimed Kalam in one week visit memorized the Scout design and came up with the ASLV!

The Americans simply put together a story based on some facts. It is true that Abdul Kalam visited Wallops Island very briefly at the fag end of his training programme at Goddard Flight Centre sometimes in the very early 60s. It was also true that Homi Bhabha had requested the US to transfer Scout's technology to India (on the back of a successful the American Nike-Apache sounding rocket programme at TERLS, Thumba). The US refused to do ToT or share design. The matter ended there. However, when SLV-3 went up successfully, the Americans built a tenuous Scout story on these disparate facts to ridicule the Indian effort. The Cold War was at its peak.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2012 14:08

gee, I didnt realize the GLONASS deal was in trouble. earlier reports suggested we had a agreement and had paid a initial tranche of money for it.

but then, sanctity of agreements is not a russian strong suit these days.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Sep 2012 18:40

It would be a nightmare to take strategic decisions based only on Russian agreements. They are notoriously faulty in their behavior and are like having a longer fuse to blow out on deals. And, the fuse always blows once established.. like in MKI, Mig spares, Gorshkov, etc.. and make us pay through nose later.

The reason, that there are many supporters for PAKFA, KS 172 etc is that it gives a ready made paper power that is a projection for the forces.. and in the long term we suffer not just on economic terms, strategic as well. While the pakis with a few squadron of begging and teasing, maintains same strategic equation., 'cause they work well within their scope.

Unless, we have scoped down our enemies, we need to think hard on home-grown techs. double investment there in core technology areas. We should be at least half way in nirbhay and kaveri engines.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 09 Sep 2012 02:22

With all these Prithvi-1/2, Agni 1/2 testing by SFC, wonder when SFC will test the A-3?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 10 Sep 2012 04:05

I don't think Russia would go out of its way to ignore MTCR, for such an small order/value project. MTCR doesn't bind India as we have not signed it, but Russia has. So they can supply us nuclear subs, long range UAVs (unarmed) and Su30-MKI but can't sell or help us in any way in development of a missile (or armed UAV) with range exceeding 300KM. All the missiles and technology that we have got from Russia has been below 300KM and I doubt it'll change any time soon. They have to worry about their small neighbors in Eastern Europe suddenly wielding Tomahawks.
I think Nirbhay is based on an upgraded version of the HAL PTAE-7 turbojet engine, which is in the same class as NPO Saturn 36MT engine, a picture of which was posted by pentaiah on the last page.

Nirbhay is 1000 Kg weight, low level missile – Lakshya is 705 Kg that flies as low as 15 meter over the sea
Nirbhay is subsonic – Lakshya can fly up to 0.7 mach
For 1000KM range missile would need to fly for ~85 min @ 700Km/Hr – lakshya-2 has endurance of 55min and way point navigation with full digital pre flight control
36MT is 100KG, 450KgF thrust engine – PTAE-7 is 65Kg, 380KgF engine.
Why wouldn’t we use PTAE-7 that we are flying since 1985 but prefer to get a Russian engine even if it was legally available?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2012 08:08

Bheeshma wrote:With all these Prithvi-1/2, Agni 1/2 testing by SFC, wonder when SFC will test the A-3?

They have to induct the A-3 first. And recall induction will occur after ~ two more tests.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 10 Sep 2012 11:54

We will be inducting the Agni series of missiles with boost phase manevring. This will allow us to launch them from our borders without the fear of being shot down in the early stage of flight.

The ballistic missile shield In Eastern Europe is causing takleef to Russia since it can intercept missiles in their most vulnerable phase. In order for us to avoid the same problem, DRDO has incorporated cork screw maneuvres in the early stage of flight. The missiles in the NE can safely reach Beijing & Shanghai without too many hassles from the Chinese interceptors.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 10 Sep 2012 12:32

There are enough information to tell that Brahmos max speed is mach 3.2. What is the minimum speed of the missile so that it will not fall off, and can we increase the range of missile, by decreasing the speed of missile to subsonic speed (is it even possible to cruise a ramjet at subsonic speeds).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2012 13:55

the akash is a solid fuel ramjet and so is the meteor...presumably they spent some time before going supersonic?