LCA News and Discussions

[Cain Marko]

Well may be the Gripen ride did it for him. Tsk tsk.

CM.

[suryag]

Somehow i feel a sense of loss of purpose when it comes to this thread. It was all so exciting as we neared the IOC, all those articles on tarmak, the anticipation of the fly past, now all of this has come to a grinding halt. As a tejingo(who is out of touch with the complexities ofcourse) here is my wishlist for the next couple of months
1. wake penetration tests by AI 2011
2. r-77 firing video or r-73 firing video at a drone/lakshya
3. gun firing video like the one that Shivji has put up of weaponised Dhruv
4. unguided firing or rockets
5. If not any of these i want atleast one new lsp to take to skies and a video of that
6. An awesome flying display for AI2011

If wishes were horses

[Kanson]

x-posting from Indian mil aviation thread.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ays&next=0

in this interview V K Saraswat confirms nirbhay, pgm, artillery gun work is focus area and even tank engine. he asks HAL to make all efforts to establish a well design Tejas production line.

quoting the section of interest...

AW: Do you think the production agencies in India are geared up to take much of the work and deliver the same on time?

V.K.S: It is a major cause of concern for us how to integrate the fruits of our work through production agencies. Since we are a developing country and our needs are not definitely in large numbers, we will have to do the production in phases. The country can’t afford systems and missiles in very large numbers, so we are not setting up mass-scale facilities. We will have to live with the current production facilities, which need to gear up to take the challenging task. Take the case of Tejas. The limited series production platforms (eight) are almost over, and the parallel work has to begin for the series production. We need a real lean manufacturing system in place to deliver the first lot of 20 Tejas on time in required quality and quantity. And then there’s an additional order of another 20 to execute. My assessment is that there should be much more effort from the production agencies to take the Tejas program forward.

AW: So there is a concern about Tejas deliveries?

V.K.S.: Yes. There’s a concern and at all forums we have expressed this. But now what we are doing is working with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and its production centers. Whatever is required for the development activities, we have told them to keep it in the present form. And what is required for the production of Tejas, a lean manufacturing process should be in place. We must have good supply chain lines, good contractors (tier I, II) and state-of-the-art tooling systems. We should have excellent methods of contracting, monitoring, evaluating and integrating every work. While we have some of these in patches, HAL needs to consolidate all this into a great process. Some lessons are also coming from Sukhoi MKI production in Nasik, but there’s lot more required.

An efficient production method has yet to be put in place by HAL as far as LCA is concerned. Again, the configuration for the 20 will be different from the next 20. It is not like a repetitive production. Remember, India is manufacturing an indigenous fighter for the first time which is been designed and developed in the country. We have to still learn many things on real-time product improvement, based on the feedback from the user. As of now, it is not a production line which is well-oiled. We are talking to HAL and they have agreed to do their best. Only time will tell how much we were able to implement.

[Lalmohan]

the HF24 was produced in fairly large numbers too
are we saying that the leap in technology from then makes this industrial effort a blank sheet of paper exercise?
did we unlearn all the production engineering takniki in between?

i would urge production agencies to bring in Tata Motors or Maruti as advisors to get the Tejas production system flowing smoother

[shiv]

^^

AW: So there is a concern about Tejas deliveries?

V.K.S.: Yes. There’s a concern and at all forums we have expressed this. But now what we are doing is working with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and its production centers. Whatever is required for the development activities, we have told them to keep it in the present form. And what is required for the production of Tejas, a lean manufacturing process should be in place. We must have good supply chain lines, good contractors (tier I, II) and state-of-the-art tooling systems. We should have excellent methods of contracting, monitoring, evaluating and integrating every work. While we have some of these in patches, HAL needs to consolidate all this into a great process. Some lessons are also coming from Sukhoi MKI production in Nasik, but there’s lot more required.

Well the ball is in HAL's court now and the HAL chairman seems to have already stated that HAL is going to have t balance Hawk production with LCA production. Hmmm.. Is there going to be trouble here?

Form IAF history:
http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_page.php?pg_id=98

Owing to the success enjoyed by the Gnat during the conflict, plans for its early-1966 phase-out by HAL were halted and production was fully reinstated, to result in a further four Gnat squadrons (Nos 15, 21, 22 and 24) being formed during 1966-68. Delay in availability of the HAL-designed HF-24 Marut for the ground attack fighter mission led, in 1966, to the IAF evaluating and the Government purchasing the Sukhoi Su-7BM, deliveries of which from the Soviet Union were to commence in March 1968, with No.26 Squadron being the first of a half-dozen squadrons that were to operate the type.

[Yagnasri]

and Radia as PR consultant? What is the need to have any great production facility with the help of any one from privae sector,when IAF is not ready to accept a reasonable no of MK1. It is simply cultural thing. IAF and IA do not have required push to go for Indian items.

[shiv]

AW: So there is a concern about Tejas deliveries?

V.K.S.: Yes. There’s a concern and at all forums we have expressed this. But now what we are doing is working with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and its production centers. Whatever is required for the development activities, we have told them to keep it in the present form. And what is required for the production of Tejas, a lean manufacturing process should be in place. We must have good supply chain lines, good contractors (tier I, II) and state-of-the-art tooling systems. We should have excellent methods of contracting, monitoring, evaluating and integrating every work. While we have some of these in patches, HAL needs to consolidate all this into a great process. Some lessons are also coming from Sukhoi MKI production in Nasik, but there’s lot more required.

Parsing:

And what is required for the production of Tejas, a lean manufacturing process should be in place.

A lean (whatever that means) manufacturing process is not (yet) in place

We must have good supply chain lines, good contractors (tier I, II) and state-of-the-art tooling systems.

We don't yet have them

We should have excellent methods of contracting, monitoring, evaluating and integrating every work.

Should have...

While we have some of these in patches, HAL needs to consolidate all this into a great process.

Not yet done



Looks like there is a long, heavy haul ahead. I can now begin to empathise with ACM Naik. I hope GoI chips in and sees what HAL needs to make it work...

[Kanson]

the HF24 was produced in fairly large numbers too
are we saying that the leap in technology from then makes this industrial effort a blank sheet of paper exercise?
did we unlearn all the production engineering takniki in between?

i would urge production agencies to bring in Tata Motors or Maruti as advisors to get the Tejas production system flowing smoother

I think he (V.K.S) is talking about the manufacturing process than the ability to produce in bulk/large numbers. IOW, maximum efficiency from the existing setup to meet the quality required, to deliver the product on the timeline and to carry out in-line changes/modification for the next 20 batch as per the user input without much fuss. Do share your opinion.

[Kanson]

We must have good supply chain lines, good contractors (tier I, II) and state-of-the-art tooling systems.

We don't yet have them

May be based on the experience with LSP. LCA program directly comes under him so we can guess he knows the pulse much better and there are reports before about issues with the manufacturing. Being the new aircraft with limited numbers establishing supply lines is tricky. With production commencing, all existing gaps must be tied and streamlined.

[SaiK]

So, for LCA Air-superiority -

1. BVR
2. WVR
3. Supercruise
4. high maneuverability - TVC
5. LPI AESA radar
6. ECM
7. IRST
8. protection systems/active jammers.
9. Other targeting systems (laser litening).

[Lalmohan]

kanson-ji, i have previously stated my hypothesis that DRDO/HAL may be excellent in design, but are weak in efficient manufacturing at industrial scale. the above few news items seem to confirm that

production engineering is a whole different discipline and few in India are good at it, the only ones who have a demonstrated capability are the automotive players

Rao-saheb, you are making a chicken and egg arguement. i would contend that the IAF would be keener to have Tejas if it came off a cost/effective production run

[SaiK]

are you saying we are strong in making few but not in 100s? so it is a question of setup and production process and jigs. efficiency w.r.t what is the question? cost, schedule/time, number of people/machine, optimal infrastructure, utilities, recycle methods, reusable parts, waste management, production throttlers, ...

now where are we weak specifically? we need more details else we are ak-phyrring in the air.

[neerajb]

now where are we weak specifically? we need more details else we are ak-phyrring in the air.

I am not sure whether it is even relevant now but this is what Gp Capt Kapil Bhargava has to say about Marut production.

I met all except one when I joined HAL as its Chief Test Pilot (CTP) in August 1957. The one missing person was the qualified Production Engineer. He took a look at HAL and decided that it was not a place to produce aircraft in numbers. He resigned and went away. It is not clear if this caused the problem but the production rate of the HF-24 forever remained very low.

http://marutfans.wordpress.com/2010/11/ ... gava-retd/

Cheers....

[putnanja]

Elated Tejas team dreaming big

...
“Given that the technology is ours, tweaking it to suit requirements will not be difficult unlike in imported aircraft,” National Flight Test Centre Group Director (Project Tejas) Wng Com (retd) P K Raveendran told Deccan Herald.

Tejas is equipped with missiles (the R73) conventional bombs, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles. Also, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has completed development and testing of the digital weapon system –– the Pylon Interface Box (PIB) and Stores Interface Box (SIB) –– compliant with the 1760C standard.

“The procurement and integration of the weapon system to be done by DRDO and us will happen based on the IAF’s requirement and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has the final operational clearance in mind,” says HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak.
...
...

[srai]

AW: So there is a concern about Tejas deliveries?

V.K.S.: Yes. There’s a concern and at all forums we have expressed this. But now what we are doing is working with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and its production centers. Whatever is required for the development activities, we have told them to keep it in the present form. And what is required for the production of Tejas, a lean manufacturing process should be in place. We must have good supply chain lines, good contractors (tier I, II) and state-of-the-art tooling systems. We should have excellent methods of contracting, monitoring, evaluating and integrating every work. While we have some of these in patches, HAL needs to consolidate all this into a great process. Some lessons are also coming from Sukhoi MKI production in Nasik, but there’s lot more required.

A question is why a lot of these have not been ironed out while making the 8 LSPs in the last 3 years or so?

[Gurneesh]

^^^^ A very valid question. I think this is one of the biggest problems of Indian Mil Entities, they seem to be working in series rather than in parallel. Most of the production related optimization should have been completed once the order was initially placed. After that the production plan would have required little to no changes to accommodate for lca design modifications. But, atleast from all these interviews it seems that HAL will start this only now (after IOC !!!).

Same is true for the Tejas Mk2 also. MMRCA was initiated because of anticipated LCA delays and was first envisioned around 2001. Around 2004, RFI's were issued for aircraft that would easily beat LCA mk1 any day. LCA Mk1 is too small to carry enough weapons (that would make it a true multi role aircraft) as it was envisioned as a Mig 21 replacement (point defence). Also people say that it is underpowered (i don't understand why) and so would have been underpowered even with Kaveri.

So, by atleast 2004 ADA and IAF knew that LCA (though good for a dedicated role) might not be good enough for multi-role (due to the Light part). So they should have started work on a bigger Tejas by then (while continuing the Mk1 development for testing and validating purposes). The result would have been a Mk2 that would have been almost ready by now and the Mk1 could have been developed as a trainer.

But what has been done is done, I think the forces and DPSU's should learn a lesson from this and try to make sure that what they are developing now is the stuff that is required down the line and not required now.

[kamal]

The LP document from H.A.L shows an increase in "empty" weight of the LCA from 5,500Kg to 6,540KG. Has there been any 'specific' variation in design from the scratch print to now which has contributed to this increase?


Regards.

** It's in the air, like a Lynyrd Skynyrd song **

[shiv]

AW: So there is a concern about Tejas deliveries?

V.K.S.: Yes. There’s a concern and at all forums we have expressed this. But now what we are doing is working with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and its production centers. Whatever is required for the development activities, we have told them to keep it in the present form. And what is required for the production of Tejas, a lean manufacturing process should be in place. We must have good supply chain lines, good contractors (tier I, II) and state-of-the-art tooling systems. We should have excellent methods of contracting, monitoring, evaluating and integrating every work. While we have some of these in patches, HAL needs to consolidate all this into a great process. Some lessons are also coming from Sukhoi MKI production in Nasik, but there’s lot more required.

A question is why a lot of these have not been ironed out while making the 8 LSPs in the last 3 years or so?

The answer seems to be there in the para above

Whatever is required for the development activities, we have told them to keep it in the present form.

The present structure was fine for development but for serial production (in the small numbers that huge India asks for) a lean set up needs to be established.

[shukla]

At last Tejas does India proud
Express Buzz

[SaiK]

^^

the indigenous content of the Tejas does not extend to its engine, which has been sourced from General Electric Company, and the flight control system from another US company, Lockheed Martin.

[kamal]

deleted.

[Rahul M]

........

username changed to kamal.
please do stop posting these 'signatures'.
Rahul.

^^

the indigenous content of the Tejas does not extend to its engine, which has been sourced from General Electric Company, and the flight control system from another US company, Lockheed Martin.

nothing to be surprised about, just american express trying to earn a pat on the head from its masters.

[vasu_ray]

Thanks Kartik for answering the question on the use of Titanium

few observations,
NFC helped in using Ti based hydraulic parts for the Tejas landing gear,
There is a video of a bulkhead of F-22 carved out of a Ti alloy block

if its weight vs. cost I wonder what would be the design team's choice.

Anyways, hopefully Navy is planning on a STOVL version for the Tejas based on the same Pegasus engine of the Sea Harrier, now that design of the F-35 STOVL version seems to be shaky

With Tejas Mk2 scheduled for 2014 and redesign of intakes is in the offing, another design for intakes of the STOVL version can be started concurrently

The STOVL versions might be useful on Carriers as well as where runway and apron space is at a premium like in the North East

[neerajb]

A question is why a lot of these have not been ironed out while making the 8 LSPs in the last 3 years or so?

A very valid question. It is appalling to know that there are apprehensions about the already meager production rate of 8 Tejas per year. What were they doing while producing LSPs? Now they are thinking about supply chains, contractors and tooling.

Something is really wrong here, first Marut and now Tejas, both suffered/will suffer from low production rate. Many times in the past it has been voiced on BRF that low order volume from IAF is the reason for such low production rate. But how can IAF possibly order Tejas in huge numbers considering past not so good experiences and so much apprehension even now.

HAL chairman said that currently 1.5 hangars are being used for Tejas and will be expanded in future if required. In contrast, Pipavav, which is a private player, is sitting on already built up over capacity (which is underutilized as of now) awaiting orders from IN! Considering that HAL had the time to plan out all this with LSPs but still didn't do it, reflects poorly on its attitude as a premier aerospace organization of India.

Cheers....

[Kanson]

kanson-ji, i have previously stated my hypothesis that DRDO/HAL may be excellent in design, but are weak in efficient manufacturing at industrial scale. the above few news items seem to confirm that

production engineering is a whole different discipline and few in India are good at it, the only ones who have a demonstrated capability are the automotive players

Definitely Sirji, no arguments over there. I wish you could add your thoughts on areas where we might be lacking. To put it forward, HAL use all Quality related buzzwords, but still the output what we see is not to our liking.

[shiv]

** It's in the air, like a Lynyrd Skynyrd song **

er what does this mean?

[kamal]

@ Rahul...
This is one is OT.

Much appreciated but can the user have a choice of a different username?

@ Shiv Sir..... "Free Bird" by Lynyrd Skynyrd.

Thanks.

[Lalmohan]

Kanson-ji
I have never stepped inside a HAL manufacturing plant. However, I have seen aircraft production lines as well as factories producing components for aviation in a number of countries. I have seen a number of automotive plants, including some in India. I am no production engineer or operations management specialist, but have some scant knowledge of these things. What I can say is that the level of organisation, sophistication and decades of experience required to setup and run effective manufacturing plants for the aviation sector are not often seen in India. The closest I can see to world class is in automotive manufacturing, although I would say (from media scanning) that pharma manufacturing in India is also world class.

Given the public sector structure of the aviation industry in India, i would be very surprised if automotive industry levels of industrial engineering are prevalent in the Indian avitation sector. We need to be realistic here, no doubt we can do it, but I dont think we are there yet. US, UK, Fr, Ger, Japan and even the Russians have been doing this 'better' for many decades. We can't wish that kind of capability and knowledge to be in place overnight.

India does have strong science and 'design engineering' skills - these have clearly led to the successes we have seen in Tejas and the missile programme. However, our overall manufacturing sector is not at the level of maturity that would easily translate to a world class fighter jet production line

This is a gap that we will close, but it might take 2-3 decades, plus the shifting of the global manufacturing centre of gravity to south of the Himalayas. OT for this thread, but these are the larger strategic issues that will play their part...

[shukla]

Days after initial operational clearance, radar shock for India’s LCA fighter
Defenseworld

the Israeli ban could not have been aimed at any other export possibility. The only other likely export is Singapore which wants to retrofit its older F-16s with this radar. The international report, first appearing in Flightglobal, has said that the ban applied to “a number of countries”, without specifying what countries were included in the ban.

P.S. Subramaniam, Programme Director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the defence laboratory that is designing the LCA has been quoted in a 2008 Indian newspaper report that Elta EL/M-2052 MMR will be an interim option since India is developing an indigenous MMR radar for the LCA. Subsequent weapons tests of the LCA have been conducted with the EL/M-2052 radar on board.

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has a co-development agreement with Elta, to develop an Indian version of the EL/M-2052 MMR. The fire-control radar is said to be deployed in the demonstration flights of the fully developed and armed prototypes of the LCA which have been going on from mid-2010 onwards.

Wonder how the ban effects the co-development of the Indian AESA with ELTA?

[Gaur]

^^
IMO, this is a very unreliable source. For one, it cannot even get the name of the aircraft right. Add to that the continuous stream of totally false statements.The report is incorrect when it states that mk1 prototypes have been fitted EL/M-2052 since 2008. The first mk1 prototype with radar was LSP-3 and it flew in 2010. Also, while the details of the MMR have been scarce and sometimes contradictory, it is now a well established fact that mk1 uses hybrid Indian MMR with some Elta "2032" parts. So, nowhere does 2052 fit into mk1's picture as for now. The article seems to be have been just made up by the reported after he saw the 2052 ban.

[SaiK]

the pegasus engine of harrier had issues (ingestion/NatGeo presentation), and was the prime study in making the jsf's STVOL. The GE F-136 program still retains the rolls royce lift system, currently under heavy testing in OH, slated late 2012 delivery with 40k++ lb thrust.

[shiv]

Days after initial operational clearance, radar shock for India’s LCA fighter

The meaning of the ban is that the ban will last until India is on the verge of operationalizing its own AESA at which time the ban will be lifted and price dropped to kill the Indian development.

This is the story of all phoren tech. Now let's buy the F-35.

[shukla]

Days after initial operational clearance, radar shock for India’s LCA fighter

The meaning of the ban is that the ban will last until India is on the verge of operationalizing its own AESA at which time the ban will be lifted and price dropped to kill the Indian development.

This is the story of all phoren tech. Now let's buy the F-35.

good one..

[SaiK]

Here is another dhoti shivering one, for canceling yell see yay! and go for F35 -

http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/repor ... se_1493113

[Lalmohan]

^^^ this is beyond dhoti-shivers, it has reached 'i see green djinns leading the ghazis towards my gates, one firm kick and ten of us will fall down'... 'let me hide in a narrower darker place and pray to my 700,000,000 gods'

[NRao]

Before we go too far: India Renews Bid to End Its Military's Dependence on Foreign-Made Weapons.

An eight-page policy paper restated government assertions that defense contracts will be given to Indian companies whenever possible. Weapons development projects expected to exceed 10 years “will by and large be developed within India,” it said. The government will establish a fund “to support research and development,” including by small- and medium-sized companies, the policy said without giving details.

Need to get hold of that 8 page report first.

I feel (as always) India has turned the corner. Need a mental change.

[SaiK]

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4946

rao saab, DPP 2011- some analysis here:

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4947

Whenever the Indian industry is not in a position to make and deliver the equipments as per the SQRs in the requisite time frame, procurement from foreign sources would be resorted to, as per Defence Procurement Procedure. While examining procurement cases, the time taken in the procurement and delivery from foreign sources vis-a-vis the time required for making it in the country, along with the urgency and criticality of the requirement, will be examined as per the Defence Procurement Procedure before deciding to proceed with procurement from foreign sources.
..

Sub-systems that are not economically viable or practical to be made within the country may be imported, ensuring their availability at all times. However, as far as possible, the design and integration of the platforms and systems will be undertaken within the country.
..

proactively encouraging larger involvement of the Indian private sector in design, development and manufacture of defence equipment. Towards this end, efforts would be made to progressively identifying and address any issue which impacts or which has potential of impacting the competitiveness of the Indian Defence Industry in comparison to foreign companies.
..

To synergise and enhance the national competence in producing state of the art defence product within the price lines and time lines that are globally competitive, all viable approaches such as formation of consortia, joint venture and public private partnerships etc. within the government approved framework will be undertaken. The academia, research and development institutions as well as technical and scientific organisations of repute will be involved for achieving this objective.
..
recognises that development of complex systems is a stage process with incremental changes progressing from Mk-1 and Mk-2 and so on. {tranche thought!}
..

In case of delays in the realization of the projects, the corresponding proposal will be processed as per the Defence Procurement Procedure and the option of “BUY” shall be followed for the necessary numbers till indigenous production capability is established where after indigenous systems shall be procured. {get ready for kaveri}
..
The government will set up a separate fund to provide necessary resources to public and private sector including SMEs as well as academic and scientific institutions to support research and development of defence products.

[sum]

kanson-ji, i have previously stated my hypothesis that DRDO/HAL may be excellent in design, but are weak in efficient manufacturing at industrial scale. the above few news items seem to confirm that

FWIW, little birdies in HAL had told me that PV-5 is grounded most of the time and not able to do the scheduled amount of flight time due to "serious" manufacturing defects in some components. Dont recollect the exact issue mentioned. Will try to find out.

That certainly isnt a good omen for a supply line if LSPs are having such manufacturing issues...

[SaiK]

^^ DPP policy with immediate effect should make private participation in tejas production line.

[RonyKJ]

There is no way out other than to initiate private enterprise to manufacture
and market the Tejas. Having just HAL to manufacture our aircraft does not
make much sense strategically. Tatas, Tanuja and so on would be happy
to oblige, I am sure.