Indian Naval Discussion

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 30 Aug 2011 22:41

Why not surreptitiously sink it and scream "WWII active mines found near Andamans"

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Aug 2011 23:19

it had operated already for about 22 days

Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/china ... -130174&cp

wtf - 22 days!

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 31 Aug 2011 00:00

^^ Somehow I don't see AK Anthony or MMS approving that.

John · Post by **John** » 31 Aug 2011 04:20

Singha wrote:er our signed deal was $1.6b , comes to $533/ship .. not sure how much we eventually paid
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20091007/156380619.html

the RuS MoD deal may have been *signed* for 400 mil , does not mean they will get it for that price eventually prices of these projects generally tend to escalate

To put into perspective Shivalik cost is around 600 million (not adjusted for inflation) and P-28 is currently project at 380 million.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 31 Aug 2011 05:34

China ship with 22 labs spied on India

New Delhi: India detected a Chinese spy ship disguised as a fishing trawler in the Indian Ocean a few months ago. By the time ship figured in the Indian radars, it had operated already for about 22 days and was positioned off-the cost of Little Anadaman - an area which is considered sensitive and crucial in the ongoing battle for supremacy over the Indian Ocean region between India and China.

Immediately after detection an Indian Navy Ship was sent after it. However, since the Chinese ship was in international waters, no punitive action could be taken against it. The Indian Naval ship, instead, tailed the Chinese ship sending out a clear message that India was aware of its actual mission. In order to avoid the Indian Navy tail, the Chinese Ship moved towards Sri Lanka and docked at the Colombo. Inquiries by the Indian security agencies revealed that ship as many as 22 Laboratories on board.

A report sent up to government, which NDTV has access to, claims that the Chinese ship was mapping the Indian Ocean and picking up crucial Bathymetric data. Other Laboratories on board the ship were designed to collect data on the currents of the Indian Ocean, the temperature at various depths and also very crucially, underwater obstructions and obstacles. Bathymetric data is crucial for submarine and Carrier based operations. Information about ocean currents, on the other hand, is crucial if torpedoes are to be used.

Why does China need this data?

India's assessment is China will be able to carry out Aircraft carrier based operations by 2017. China doesn't have an operational aircraft carrier yet. The collection of data from the Indian Ocean is designed towards this. Once the Chinese Carrier Battle Group is ready for operations the Indian Ocean region will be one of the main focus areas of China. This will not help China secure the shipping lanes that carry its exports towards Europe and North America but protect oil and coal imports. However, the presence of the Chinese Navy in the Indian Ocean region cannot be altogether benign for India. In fact the presence of a Carrier Battle Group in Indian Ocean region is a serious military threat for India. Chinese ground forces already have an edge over their Indian counterparts along the land borders. Chinese naval presence in Indian Ocean region is, therefore, a cause of serious concern for India.

China monitors Indian missile programme

What is also worrying Indian security agencies is the presence several Chinese fishing trawlers along Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast during test launches of missiles. All Indian missiles are tested from Wheeler Islands. Security agencies have told the government that fishing trawlers are most likely monitoring the Indian missile test launches and colleting telemetric data of the missile. Telemetric data is crucial to build effective counter measure against missiles.

From Hindustan Times: Suspected Chinese spy ship near Andamans

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 31 Aug 2011 06:23

Did the ship enter India's EEZ? If so action must have been taken.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 31 Aug 2011 06:48

uddu wrote:Did the ship enter India's EEZ? If so action must have been taken.

^^^

Immediately after detection an Indian Navy Ship was sent after it. However, since the Chinese ship was in international waters, no punitive action could be taken against it. The Indian Naval ship, instead, tailed the Chinese ship sending out a clear message that India was aware of its actual mission. In order to avoid the Indian Navy tail, the Chinese Ship moved towards Sri Lanka and docked at the Colombo. Inquiries by the Indian security agencies revealed that ship as many as 22 Laboratories on board.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Aug 2011 06:59

Aditya_V wrote:Why not try and board it claiming to suspect it being a pirate ship?

Since they were in Intl waters they were legally not doing any thing wrong and boarding it would have resulted in a big diplomatic row.

They were collecting data that would aid the chinese submarine and even perhaps mapping the ocean floor , well you can intimidate them by sending naval ships and signaling them we know what you are doing so get your arse out of here and that is what the IN ships did.

Something similar happened when a USN military ships were located outside Chinese submarine base but in Intl waters and the chinese sent their ships to intimidate them and they left

Kanishka · Post by **Kanishka** » 31 Aug 2011 09:08

Something is not right here! The ship operated for 22 days and had 22 labs?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Aug 2011 10:10

Austin wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Why not try and board it claiming to suspect it being a pirate ship?
Since they were in Intl waters they were legally not doing any thing wrong and boarding it would have resulted in a big diplomatic row.

They were collecting data that would aid the chinese submarine and even perhaps mapping the ocean floor , well you can intimidate them by sending naval ships and signaling them we know what you are doing so get your arse out of here and that is what the IN ships did.

Something similar happened when a USN military ships were located outside Chinese submarine base but in Intl waters and the chinese sent their ships to intimidate them and they left

Totally, Agree if the Ship was showing itself as PLAN ship, thats the best we can do, but a fishing trawler can always have pirates. That would make the PLAN to stop this fishing traweler business.

Note: even with the USN, none of the USN ships showed themselves as fishing trawlers.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Aug 2011 10:22

without boarding it how did we know that it had 22 labs ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Aug 2011 10:34

suryag wrote:without boarding it how did we know that it had 22 labs ?

22 labs or 52 is just a media creation , not sure even if it had a lab or what it looked like from Inside , what was the mission and why was it there , it was a "suspected" spy ship from china which was driven away.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Aug 2011 11:24

"Do unto the Chinese what they do unto others".Have we not forgotten how the Chinese forced down a US LRMP aircraft,plus trying to ram US auxiliaries,trying to cut off their survey eqpt. too? If the Chinese can scream from the rooftops and justifty their arrogance on the high seas then it is past time that the IN too gave them a taste of the same medicine.

But then just look who are our leaders in office today? Do we seriously thonk that ANY of them will defend the country's sovereignity at all? Remember how MMS spoke like a Paki hyena about Balushistan at S-al-S? They can be described as similar to certain sea creatures,but Sanku if I remember right,severely protested at my description of them saying that even molluscs were protesting at being clubbed along with such surrender-monkeys..(oops,sorry primates!),Snake-oil Singh and his ilk!

The IN if totally convinced that such Chinese "fishing" vessels are actually spy craft,should when they venture near our shores surround them and jam their sensors and if need be board them and expose the Chinese chicanery to the world.We could also do to the PRC the very same,sending our own spy trawlers to Hainan island,etc.During the Cold War,both sides engaged in suhc games and there was healthy competition between both sides respecting international rules.However,for the PRC ,they make up the rules as they go-as in the case of stapled passports,joint exercises with Pak in POK.The GOI should take measures on a war footing to stymie the PRC and Paki masterplan to dominate the subcontinent/IOR,encircle India, and at a later date launch an unprovoked joint first strike against India.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Aug 2011 11:37

Why not board them swiftly and tug it within the 12 nautical miles and videograph the arrest ?Of course before capabilities/ideas one needs intentions which sadly is absent in our leaders

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Aug 2011 13:58

In the debate about sub types for the IN,here is a dramatic statement on the usefulness of an SSGN,or suns equipped with Brahmos type land attack missiles.The Ohio SSBN was later convereted into an SSGN carrying over 150+ Tomahawak cryise missiles.I have mentioned this fact/capability many moons ago.In the recent Libyan campaign,a USN Ohio class SSGN,the Florida peppered Libyan military targets with over 100 missiles taking out key targets!

The ability of an SSGN to stealthily approach a coastline and deliver a massive attack such as was done in Libya reinforces my viewpoint that we must have apart from SSGNs like the Akulas and ATV SSGN derivatives,a new class of Brahmos equipped AIP SSGs,which would be less costly and offer extra boats to deploy in a multi-theatre crisis.Read the article in full for more details.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 10830.aspx

Xcpt:

SSGNs Finally See Combat

August 30, 2011: With nearly all of Libya overrun by rebels, it was possible to get a close look at how well the American Tomahawk TLAM-E did in its first combat use. The missile performed as predicted. Most of these Tomahawks were fired during the initial air attack on March 19th. Moreover, most of the Tomahawks (over a hundred) launched on that day were fired by one ship; the nuclear submarine USS Florida. This was the first time an SSGN saw combat, but not the first time nuclear subs have fired missiles in wartime (U.S. SSNs have fired Tomahawks several times.)
The USS Florida was one of four Ohio class ballistic missile submarines (SSBN) converted to cruise missile submarines (SSGN). The USS Florida and the other three SSGNs entered service over the last five years, and this is the first time one of them fired its missiles in combat. Each of these Ohio class boats now carry 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles, and provides space for 66 commandos (usually SEALs) and their equipment.

The idea of converting ballistic missile subs, that would have to be scrapped to fulfill disarmament agreements, has been bouncing around since the 1990s. After September 11, 2001, the idea got some traction. The navy submariners love this one, because they lost a lot of their reason for being with the end of the Cold War. The United States had built a powerful nuclear submarine force during the Cold War, but with the rapid disappearance of the Soviet navy in the 1990s, there was little reason to keep over a hundred nuclear subs in commission. These boats are expensive, costing over a billion each to build and over a million dollars a week to operate. The four Ohio class SSBN being converted each have at least twenty years of life left in them.

The idea of a sub, armed with 154 highly accurate cruise missiles, and capable of rapidly traveling under water (ignoring weather, or observation) at a speed of over 1,200 kilometers a day, to a far off hot spot, had great appeal in the post-Cold War world. The ability to carry a large force of commandos as well was also attractive. In one sub you have your choice of hammer or scalpel. More capable cruise missiles are in the works as well. Whether or not this multi-billion dollar investment will pay off remains to be seen, but it certainly worked off Libya.

And then there’s the new Tomahawk. The RGM-109E Block IV Surface Ship Vertical Launched Tomahawk Land Attack Missile weighs 1.2 ton, is six meters (18 feet) long, has a range of 1,600 kilometers, getting there at a speed of 600-900 kilometers an hour, flying at an altitude of 17-32 meters (50-100 feet) and propelled by a jet engine generating only 600 pounds of thrust. Accuracy is on a par with JDAM (10 meters/ 31 feet). The Block IV Tomahawk can be reprogrammed in flight to hit another target and carries a vidcam to allow a missile to check on prospective targets.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 31 Aug 2011 16:40

Unleash the kraken on the chinese spy ships snooping on our missile program, I say. A stealth sub attack and they'll sink before they can type SOS into their secure comms...

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 31 Aug 2011 18:20

Hari Seldon wrote:Unleash the kraken on the chinese spy ships snooping on our missile program, I say. A stealth sub attack and they'll sink before they can type SOS into their secure comms...

Really not a good idea bro and here is why I think your idea is not sound.

1) Any sub that opens its torpedo doors and and unleashes a beast will show up on a sonar and allow the Chinese to send a message back to their command.

2) To really catch the Chinese ships by surprise, a MARCOS demolition squad should be sent with the mini submersibles and latch limpet mines to the hull. However, in order to do that, the ship needs to be still because the wake it creates while it moves will be dangerous for the commandos.

3) The ship sinks in international waters and the Chinese find India responsible, they can declare war without heck of a lot International pressure against them.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 31 Aug 2011 18:34

^^^ No Dice!

The Chinese aren't crazy or stupid to declare war over a fishing boat, they wouldn't do that even to a nation like the Philippines or Brunei which have no nukes!

The simplest and easiest way to ruin the Chinese fishing party is to send another fishing trawler and let is ram right into that Chinese "fishing boat" at full speed on the high seas. At best, the Chinese fishing trawler and all its crew will die in a giant fireball, at worst the crew of the ramming Fishing trawler will meet the chinese in the water and will have to face some fisticuffs while trying to stay afloat. The Indian Navy can come in slowly after 5-6 hours and pick up those Chinese who made it and can "debrief" them while they are being "given proper care", while the ramming vessels "fishermen" can go to "jail" for whatever convenient excuse the Indian navy can cook up.

This kind of tactics is exactly what the Chinese would have done and the Indian navy is being naive if they didn't consider a similar tactics. Demolitions and MARCOS and all that jazz is overkill and too risky. There are conveniently plenty of pirates in the Indian ocean to use as cover for what ever the heck the Indian navy wants to do, plus accidents do happen at sea. RAW and IB should be given marine resources to play the chankian game with the devil and the deep blue sea.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Aug 2011 18:36

Yes but if a ship which pretends to be a fishing trawler is boarded, checked and released, we can always claim mistaken identity, and the Chinese will have to grudingly accept. the Chinese will then have to behave like the USN, sned thier ships but keep the PLAN flag, transponder identity etc.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 31 Aug 2011 18:47

Brando, that is one brazen idea. But I was talking about a ship flying a PLAN flag, and openly identified itself as a PLAN ship. Oh, and a question for everyone, how in the hell does the media know that a fishing trawler is a shy ship?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Aug 2011 20:36

the chinese fishing trawlers tailing USN survey ships threw logs into the water ahead of the us ships, shouted slogans and did close manouvering. here is one attemping to mock ram a JMSDF ship passing feet from its stern
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq6qozzRpkY

we need to plan for regular incidents of this nature and train and equip a band of "pirates" and "rogue fisherman" to greet these newcomers all along the A&N chain. maybe preposition a few trawlers up and down in harbours, while keeping the crew ready and well trained in port blair and car nicobar to be airlifted to the nearest suitable ship available.

and ofcourse return the favour near Sanya.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 01 Sep 2011 00:13

Brando wrote:^^^ No Dice!

The Chinese aren't crazy or stupid to declare war over a fishing boat, they wouldn't do that even to a nation like the Philippines or Brunei which have no nukes!

The simplest and easiest way to ruin the Chinese fishing party is to send another fishing trawler and let is ram right into that Chinese "fishing boat" at full speed on the high seas. At best, the Chinese fishing trawler and all its crew will die in a giant fireball, at worst the crew of the ramming Fishing trawler will meet the chinese in the water and will have to face some fisticuffs while trying to stay afloat. The Indian Navy can come in slowly after 5-6 hours and pick up those Chinese who made it and can "debrief" them while they are being "given proper care", while the ramming vessels "fishermen" can go to "jail" for whatever convenient excuse the Indian navy can cook up.

This kind of tactics is exactly what the Chinese would have done and the Indian navy is being naive if they didn't consider a similar tactics. Demolitions and MARCOS and all that jazz is overkill and too risky. There are conveniently plenty of pirates in the Indian ocean to use as cover for what ever the heck the Indian navy wants to do, plus accidents do happen at sea. RAW and IB should be given marine resources to play the chankian game with the devil and the deep blue sea.

But brando, this so called spy chinki already have moved to colombo port(after the nevy action, a massage). Now we should use our bilectural ties wd shrilanka to check how much they pass on intel. Info.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 01 Sep 2011 00:17

I think we should stress shrilanka open a port for indian nevy ships permanently. This will enhance there costal security also.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Sep 2011 00:20

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/883003ec-d3f6 ... z1WdTJ9rqy
China confronts Indian navy vessel

A Chinese warship confronted an Indian navy vessel shortly after it left Vietnamese waters in late July in the first such reported encounter between the two countries’ navies in the South China Sea.

The unidentified Chinese warship demanded that India’s INS Airavat, an amphibious assault vessel, identify itself and explain its presence in international waters shortly after it completed a scheduled port call in Vietnam, five people familiar with the incident told the Financial Times.

This latest example of China’s naval assertiveness has irked defence officials in India and Vietnam. China claims the South China Sea in its entirety, rejecting partial claims by Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines and Taiwan over the resource-rich region.

“Any navy in the world has full freedom to transit through these waters or high seas,” said one Indian official familiar with the encounter. “For any country to proclaim ownership or question the right to passage by any other nation is unacceptable.”

Vietnam’s foreign ministry acknowledged that the INS Airavat visited the country from July 19-22, but said it had no information about the incident. The Chinese defence and foreign ministries declined comment, as did the Indian government.

China’s projection of maritime power, especially into the Indian Ocean, has raised national security concerns in New Delhi, which has raised the incident with Beijing.

Hanoi is also upset by what it believes to be a deliberate provocation by Beijing, according to foreign diplomats, who said the implication of the naval challenge was that China believes it is entitled to police the South China Sea.

China and Vietnam have been trying to mend fences ever since Hanoi claimed in May that Chinese patrol boats had sabotaged Vietnamese oil exploration vessels. On Monday Vietnam’s deputy defence minister, Lieutenant General Nguyen Chi Vinh, concluded a high-profile visit to Beijing, where he met General Liang Guanglie, China’s defence minister. Both sides agreed to increase military co-operation and set up a military hotline.

An unprecedented series of anti-China protests broke out in Hanoi in June, with the clear acquiescence of Vietnam’s omnipresent security officials. The government only recently cracked down on the demonstrations.

“Vietnam has to find a delicate balance in raising its concerns over territorial issues while not pushing China too far,” said one Asian diplomat.

Rising tensions have also attracted the attention of Washington. Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, angered Beijing last year by insisting that the South China Sea was of strategic importance to the US and offering to act as a mediator.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 01 Sep 2011 18:47

Teg started sea trials today.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Sep 2011 23:58

India asserts right to sail after INS Airavat face-off.

Amid increasing Chinese assertiveness, India intervened to swiftly deny there had been any ‘confrontation’ between the two countries’ naval forces off Vietnam in the South China Sea in July. But, it was firm its freedom to navigate in international waters could neither be questioned nor denied.

The Financial Times had yesterday carried a report about an alleged confrontation between an Indian Navy ship and a Chinese vessel off the coast of Vietnam in July.

Clarifying the report, the Indian foreign office said INS Airavat paid a friendly visit to Vietnam between July 19 and 28. “On July 22, INS Airavat sailed from the Vietnamese port of Nha Trang towards Hai Phong, where it was to make a port call. At a distance of 45 nautical miles from the Vietnamese coast in the South China Sea, it was contacted on an open radio channel by a caller identifying himself as the ‘Chinese Navy’, stating that ‘you are entering Chinese waters’. No ship or aircraft was visible from INS Airavat, which proceeded on her onward journey as scheduled.”

“There was no confrontation involving the INS Airavat” the foreign office said, adding however that India supported freedom of navigation in international waters, including in the South China Sea, and the right of passage in accordance with the accepted principles of international law. “These principles should be respected by all,” the statement said.

India has been able to forge a deep and wide relationship with Vietnam, and conducts military exercises with that country. Of particular interest to India is Vietnam’s Da Nang Naval base, which has been under Russian control for several decades. India wants access to Da Nang. China has been viewing these moves with disfavour.

The South China Sea is a hotly contested property for strategic as well as economic reasons. In a submission to the United Nations in May 2010, China claimed it had “indisputable sovereignty over the islands in the South China Sea and the adjacent waters, and enjoys sovereign rights and jurisdiction over the relevant waters, as well as the sea-bed and subsoil...” It attached a map along with its claim to the UN that shows the entire South China Sea as part of its territory. This is not the first time China has attempted to stop an Indian ship. Twice earlier — in 1958 and 2001 — Indian ships were stopped by Chinese authorities.

Nor is this exchange one-sided. Top Indian Navy sources said earlier this year, a Chinese fishing trawler was intercepted in the Bay of Bengal, trying to monitor telemetry signals from Balasore, Orissa, where India tests its air defence systems. When challenged, the trawler moved from Indian territorial waters to international waters. In June, a mysteriously abandoned ship was discovered in the Arabian Sea.

India is not raising these issues in pursuance of a general approach on China, outlined by National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon in a lecture last month. Delivering the Prem Bhatia Memorial lecture, Menon said the bilateral relations had elements of cooperation but also competition, because ‘our extended neighbourhood is also China’s extended neighbourhood’. Making withering observations on self-styled China experts and the ‘brilliance’ of some sections of the media, he had said much more moderation was required on the part of the media.

“Why create self-fulfiling prophecies of conflict with powerful neighbours like China?” Menon had asked, adding “for me, this is one lesson of the 1950s that some of us are in the danger of forgetting”.

atma · Post by **atma** » 02 Sep 2011 06:35

Clarifying the report, the Indian foreign office said INS Airavat paid a friendly visit to Vietnam between July 19 and 28. “On July 22, INS Airavat sailed from the Vietnamese port of Nha Trang towards Hai Phong, where it was to make a port call. At a distance of 45 nautical miles from the Vietnamese coast in the South China Sea, it was contacted on an open radio channel by a caller identifying himself as the ‘Chinese Navy’, stating that ‘you are entering Chinese waters’. No ship or aircraft was visible from INS Airavat, which proceeded on her onward journey as scheduled.”

Why cant we do this to them in the IOR. ???

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 02 Sep 2011 07:14

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... 6127557284

Test looms for China over India

The incident brings into the open India's strategic ambitions in Southeast Asia and, it appears, China's displeasure.

However, the development of a security role in the South China Sea certainly represents an opportunity for India to demonstrate its credentials as an Asia-Pacific power.

The US has been pressing India to take a more active role in the Asia-Pacific for years.

It is not clear where this will all lead. If India acts carefully, the development of a small Indian naval presence in the South China Sea might bolster its claim to be an Asia-Pacific power without provoking too great a reaction from China.

But the appearance of the Indian navy in China's backyard could also lead China into upping the ante in both the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean.

Strategic rivalry between India and China in the Indian and Pacific oceans is something that Australia is keen to avoid. It seems India has entered some uncharted waters.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Sep 2011 07:15

atma wrote:Why cant we do this to them in the IOR. ???

Our netas are quite unique in the fact, in that they lack a spine and have no balls. They believe in ahimsa.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Sep 2011 07:49

Rakesh wrote:They believe in ahimsa.

Our leaders and Ahima

May be internationally, they are meek but when it comes to dealing with Indian citizens...

If it's the reverse like in the U.S then we may be a World power.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Sep 2011 07:54

Vipul wrote:India asserts right to sail after INS Airavat face-off.
Nor is this exchange one-sided. Top Indian Navy sources said earlier this year, a Chinese fishing trawler was intercepted in the Bay of Bengal, trying to monitor telemetry signals from Balasore, Orissa, where India tests its air defence systems. When challenged, the trawler moved from Indian territorial waters to international waters. In June, a mysteriously abandoned ship was discovered in the Arabian Sea.

India is not raising these issues in pursuance of a general approach on China, outlined by National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon in a lecture last month. Delivering the Prem Bhatia Memorial lecture, Menon said the bilateral relations had elements of cooperation but also competition, because ‘our extended neighbourhood is also China’s extended neighbourhood’. Making withering observations on self-styled China experts and the ‘brilliance’ of some sections of the media, he had said much more moderation was required on the part of the media.

“Why create self-fulfiling prophecies of conflict with powerful neighbours like China?” Menon had asked, adding “for me, this is one lesson of the 1950s that some of us are in the danger of forgetting”.

This shows the surrender behavior of the present Indian govt. When a Chinese ship is in Indian water. We must have seized the ship and arrested all on-board.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 02 Sep 2011 09:05

uddu wrote:
Vipul wrote:India asserts right to sail after INS Airavat face-off.

“Why create self-fulfiling prophecies of conflict with powerful neighbours like China?” Menon had asked, adding “for me, this is one lesson of the 1950s that some of us are in the danger of forgetting”.
This shows the surrender behavior of the present Indian govt. When a Chinese ship is in Indian water. We must have seized the ship and arrested all on-board.

Then should we arrest all the chinese building so called roads/highways in PoK? thats our land! and we should.

We don't, reason is not the surrender behaviour, reason is our constant failure to build enough muscles in spare time, to have enough muscles to flex in the time of need. We simply keep on waiting for somebody to poke us to give any reaction.

They took more then 11 years to "get close" to sign MMRCA, god knows how many more decades it will take to see any new artillery, year after year they keep on postponing new strike cores, upgrade of infrastructure along lac. THIS is the weakness, if we would have got all that in time we would have not only strengthen our forces and boosted there morale but above all by doing so we would have projected ourselves as serious guys.

A wise man can imagine the difference between having 200 MMRCA in 2020+ and having them in 2015. It’s not about just having it. If we have it in 2015 we are that much ahead of the rest, we would have been 5 years ahead of India we are now in. This missing sense of topping the stack is, why we can't arrest anybody.

It was recently made public, one of the consignments of DRDO (so called "actuators") went missing in Heathrow 3 years back, in a separate incident some time back in India a transport mishap happened delaying a critical program. One can argue that it is responsibility of supplier to make secure delivery; we should claim damages blah blah. That is not the point. Point is somebody (a third nation) has been successful in sabotaging our plans. And the problem is, in no way we have upgraded our system to stop that from happening again.

This stubbornness of not to learn fast, not to have a sense of urgency to fill the loopholes and not be proactive to outsmart rival's propaganda is why we can't arrest anybody. To act like a police, u have to dress like a police and talk like a police. Only then people will take you as one.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Sep 2011 10:41

Guys,

In international waters, these things happen between two competing navies. If the GOI as a result of this action by the PLAN decides to suspend all Indian navel activities off the Vietnamese coast. Then that will be a cause for concern.

Until then sit back and enjoy the popcorn.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Sep 2011 11:18

the best response would be a large scale Indo-vietnamese ASW and command exercise in the same area - 2 shivaliks, 1 oiler, 1 delhi class, 2 patrol vessels, 2 survey ships to assist the vietnamese in surveying their undersea continental shelf. INS Airavat is a small amphib ship and its activities cannot be a worry for the PLAN, but a couple of Shivaliks and hydrographic survey ships in tow sniffing around in same area will be.

its time to roll the dice and raise the stakes.

ps. infact a long term survey contract to help our Viet brothers survey is best - 2 survey ship and a rotating FFG of the IN for escort can be permanently based there. anytime it goes out, should be always accompanied by the FFG to take care of any hostile intruders.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Sep 2011 11:24

just looking at goog earth - gotta love the vietnamese for strategic paklocation.

Da Nang is 272 km as crow (or brahmos) flies from sanya
Hai Phong is 332km as crow flies from sanya
shallow seas

IN based in Da Nang would be like IN having a major base in rameswaram and PLAN sitting in trincomalee in distance terms.

so no wonder their undies are on fire

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Sep 2011 11:25

Even better would be to commence a major build up of the IN. That will result in the IN having a permanent presence in the South- western Pacific basin (I will not call it south china sea.)

But that is just a jingo wet dream. The IN will struggle to have 40 major surface combatants by 2020 and the sub fleet will be gutted. By the time the P 75I & P 76 decisions are made.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Sep 2011 11:29

chinese need to see one of these outside their window every morning
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ship ... Class.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ship ... hwani.html

we need to do prep work for SSN patrols and buy a couple of these ships readymade (install our own NPOL kit) .

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2011 11:52

a) We need to announce Annual naval exercises in the South China Sea with Vietnam/Japan and also use maritime Air assets during the exercises.
b) Regular Naval Oceanographic Surveys with armed escort
c) Sell them some Brahmos'

And then watch the noodle shiver

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 02 Sep 2011 14:26

Lets concentrate defending ourselves. There is nothing to be gained by provoking the Chinese. They already shiver by the thought of rising India. India's growth and rise are irreversible. We do not need to prove or show anything to anybody.

The Chinese have not denied us access to south China sea. Same situation reversed in Arabian See, if a Chinese vessel en route to Gwadar comes close to Indian water is contacted on 'open channels' to state it's intention, there will be no BIG deal. Sailors and Pilots will tell you that these things happen all the time.

Also notice, there was no Chinese vessel in vicinity to actually challenge our vessel. China has stated claim to all islands in South China sea. They have done so officially in 2010. To support their claim they have to do this kind of exercise to demonstrate their sovereignty.

If we take a list of incidents as to how many times Rayal navy has done similar things then it will be quite scandalous.

What interests me is as to why this non event is getting so much publicity. Why are we hearing about Chinese threats to our security from western media all of a sudden. What is in their for them to make us scared of the Chinese? Any ideas?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Sep 2011 15:10

we are perhaps setting the stage for A5 and increased co-op with vietnam. every power who steps to the next level likes to project dharmically that its in self-defence and minimum-credible onlee. as in the Seawolf SSN was in response to the threat of alfa class sub, or F15 as a response to the Mig25, or the raptor to the su27

the march up the ladder must go on, because we are trying to close the gap, not retain the lead here. we are behind in missile strike power, tactical artillery and naval forces. PLANAF has a whole AF all its own with 30MKK with supersonic AsCM, we have a squadron of jaguarIM with sea eagles. we are only in planning stages of brahmos-A. PLAN has taken into service a couple of rotterdam type LPDs, while we only have a RFP so far