Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 07 Jul 2013 22:52

Brando wrote:Why not buy an entire tracked artillery system from somebody who actually knows how to build them like the Europeans, the Koreans, the Russians etc ??

We have already mated the denel system to the arjun. I'm sure the process of developing and inducting the system would be quicker.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Jul 2013 00:50

The Catapult system was a seriously fvcked up system as per those who have operated it...god knows who has given the signal for this new development. Why the fvck can't they simply get the Denel gun?

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 08 Jul 2013 01:10

Rohit,

Could you throw some light on the problems with the catapult?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Jul 2013 01:59

anything and everything that can delay arjun as a platform shall be undertaken.

-our mission

John · Post by **John** » 08 Jul 2013 02:04

For a second there i thought this was April fool's post

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jul 2013 04:17

Apart from IDRW has anyone even reported this?
And how is putting a 155mm Metamorphosis upgrade on the Arjun chassis the same as the Catapult? Besides who says the Army would induct an "open carriage" arty system in todays day and age. Sounds doubtful IMO.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jul 2013 04:30

Ok, the news was reported by Geopolitics in June 2013. IDRW as always shamelessly ripped off the story.
Geopolitics is a pretty decent mag, and reports it was the Army which has asked for this, with a regiment of 40 units to begin with, and more to be considered as necessary.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 08 Jul 2013 08:09

Indian Army is Back to " Jugaad " , how effective will guns be when they are upgraded to 155mm 52 caliber standard ?

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 08 Jul 2013 10:51

LOVE to see this in Indian Army

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/bhim.htm

The Bhim self-propelled howitzer was developed by Denel of South Africa as a private venture. It is based on Denel's considerable experience in development and production of artillery systems. This self-propelled howitzer is named after the Bhima, a hero from Indian folklore. Indian Army requirement is for 200 - 600 new self-propelled howitzers as part of it's field artillery rationalization plan. The Bhim self-propelled howitzer was competing against the Bofors FH-77AD. Trials of the Bhim artillery system were successfully conducted in 1998 and 1999, however later Denel company was accused of paying bribes and it's SPH was dropped from consideration.

This artillery system is fitted with a complete T6 turret, developed by Denel of South Africa. It is armed with a 155-mm / L52 howitzer, similar to that of the G6-52. Vehicle has a fully automatic ammunition loading system. Maximum range of fire is 41 km with rocket assisted projectile and 52 km with Denel V-LAP rocket assisted projectile. This system is capable of firing standard NATO 155-mm ammunition. Maximum rate of fire is 8 rounds per minute. Sustained rate is 2 rounds per minute. The Bhim is capable of firing 3 rounds burst in 15 seconds. It is also capable of multiple-launch simultaneous impact firing. Up to 6 rounds are launched in different trajectories and hit located 25 km away simultaneously.

Total onboard ammunition capacity is about 40 - 50 rounds. 20 of these rounds are stored in the autoloader. Turret has ammunition loading hatches on both sides. A conveyor belt may be extended for ground ammunition loading and direct feeding of the gun.

Secondary armament of the Bhim howitzer consists of a single 7.62-mm machine gun.

Vehicle is fitted with modern fire control system. It has a fire control computer for automatic gun laying and GPS navigation system. The Bhim artillery system has a crew of four, however it's high level of automation allows to reduce the crew to two men in a fully automatic mode. It consists of commander, gunner, loader and driver.

The Bhim self-propelled howitzer has a fast reaction time. It can stop from travelling and fire the first round within 30 seconds. It also takes 30 seconds to leave firing position. This feature makes it ideal to use for shoot-and-scoot firing, avoiding counter battery fire.

This artillery system has a welded hull and turret. Armor of the Bhim SPH provides all-round protection against 7.62-mm armor-piercing rounds and artillery shell splinters. Vehicle is fitted with an NBC protection system.

This artillery system is based on a modified Arjun MBT chassis. It is worth mentioning that in 2008 it was announced that there will be no further orders for Arjun tanks. Vehicle is powered by German MTU 838 Ka-501 diesel engine, developing 1 400 hp. It also has a turret-mounted auxiliary power unit, which powers all systems, when the main engine is shut down. The Bhim SPH has advanced hydropneumatic suspension system.

Previous variant proposed by Denel, was the T6 turret mounted on the T-72M1 MBT chassis. This variant has also been tested in India. The T6 turret is self-contained and can be mounted on any other suitable vehicle platform. It's development was finally completed in 2008 and it is offered for export customers.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 08 Jul 2013 13:50

Bishwa wrote:Rohit,

Could you throw some light on the problems with the catapult?

IIRC, it ranged from very poor elevation and traverse for firing to base plate developing cracks (need to confirm) to very poor ergonomics (even as per IA standards)

Rate of fire and time to deploy (as per SP gun standards) was also very poor

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Jul 2013 13:39

If AW can be bailed out so soon despite the helo scam,then why not Denel? After all it has been several years since and even with the HDW alleged scandal,HDW was eventually let off the hook because of no credible evidence available.The Denel/Arjun Bhim melds the best of firang and Indian expertise and should be procured asap.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Jul 2013 17:40

the data in that poll is highly suspect - russia doesn't score at all? norway and finland score worse than uk and france? really?

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 09 Jul 2013 20:06

Rohit garu, if this report is true, then would this be for the strike corps?

nash · Post by **nash** » 15 Jul 2013 13:11

Final trials of India's Main Battle Tank Arjun Mark II in August

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/final-trials ... 3-239.html

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 080581.cms

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2013 08:13

nash wrote:Final trials of India's Main Battle Tank Arjun Mark II in August

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/final-trials ... 3-239.html

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 080581.cms

in the IBN Live (f)article on the Arjun MKII trials, they have shown the picture of a Tincan with a caption as Arjun MKII. Granted one can't count the wheels because of the dust cloud kicked up, just seeing the low profile and the turret it is a dead-giveaway that it is a Tincan...

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 16 Jul 2013 11:37

nash wrote:Final trials of India's Main Battle Tank Arjun Mark II in August
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/final-trials ... 3-239.html
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 080581.cms

The excitement generated in the BR by these "final" trials is striking....

--Ashish

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2013 11:57

Ahh. . .one more 'final' trial

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Jul 2013 13:54

Breaking News

Arjun Failed the trials as it was not able to lay a Golden Egg!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2013 17:41

pandyan wrote:Arjun is shaping up to be a truly world class product. Thanks to army/dgmf in their belief in continuous improvement in keeping Arjun world class. There might be 13 minor and 2 major improvements identified as part of the final trials. Hopefully DRDO would be able to finish them in time for next summers trials. This would be landmark development and we can surely expect high 40 orders for the Arjun Mk II tanks. Meanwhile, because of the delay in FOC of Arjun (in R&D&D&D for quarter century), as a stop gap measure, we need to fill up with AL and Tata trucks (light enough to cross bridges any where in the world)

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 Aug 2013 01:33

Arjun MK-II user trials kicked off in Rajasthan

HYDERABAD: User trials of Main Battle Tank, Arjun MK-II equipped with almost 75 new improved technologies and some other modified features as compared to Mark-I version have been kicked off in Rajasthan and are expected to continue for the coming few days. Defence Research and Development Organisation which has indigenously developed and manufactured this much awaited MBT with help of its various labs led by Chennai-based Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment has been conducting development trials for almost two years to test various technologies integrated into Arjun MK-II at different times as per the demands projected by Army. However, as per a DRDO official, it is the first time, that all the integrated technologies including 16 major technologies are being tested at the same time. The user trials as per the officials started yesterday.

...
...
However, DRDO is asserting that if all goes well, Army should place an order of at least 500 Arjun MK-II tanks for make it cost effective, production viable and continuous in terms of supply. "Army earlier inducted 124 Mk-I Arjun Tanks and then asked for an advanced version equipped with specified features and capabilities. However, to make it cost effective and viable for both the industry and the users, the order has to be increased well in time to at least 500 for Mk II version of Arjun MBT. If the Army is satisfied, the order of 500 should be placed in one go only since that would save time taken for various formalities and procedures of a fresh order", said a DRDO official while speaking to The Times of India.

...
...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Aug 2013 04:24

jilebi!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Aug 2013 06:23

So all those improvements made the Mk2 tank even more heavier?

wonder what Mk3 will be like.

A tank with an anti-aircraft gun! In WWII they used to have the 0.50 Browning MG for both anti air and ground role.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2013 07:05

the biggest and most badass tanks the Abrams and Merkava are also the heaviest.

so far nobody has been able to find some magic bullet how to make a tank 50t and yet give 1200mm RHA worth of protection in the frontal arc needed to defeat the latest APDS and ATGMs. for top attack most tanks are vulnerable but the merkava has sacrificed some mobility to give 12" equivalent of armour protection there as well. top attack ATGMs and sensor fused munitions are proliferating and both hardkill and softkill systems are needed in that area.

but impossibility has never stopped the IA from tilting at windmills and whipping the CVRDE to failing to deliver a 50t abrams.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 14 Aug 2013 07:39

The key to Arjun success and affordability is making the Engine+Transmission in India. Buying anything German will not work beyond prototypes.

This piecemeal ordering by Indian Army is beyond my comprehension. A tank can always be retrofitted and upgraded, so why the hesitancy? Order 1000 units and then keep upgrading them to latest standards overtime. And the Pakis will try to match by buying rust buckets from China resulting in less money to spend on exporting terrorism.

On a side note, the cold war ended because of an arms race which bankrupted one party, the Soviet Union. An arms race in South Asia aiming to bankrupt Pakistan will be the way to Peace for India. We need to induct Arjun, desi bofors, LCH and LCA in hundreds to trigger an Arms race leading to PEACE!!!

Kill all imports and just make 3x Desi versions and voila Peace will be served. ( My coffee must have been spiked)

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Aug 2013 08:15

watch out for "torsion bar failures", transmission failures, etc. Remember the T-90 was inducted with a dysfunctional TI and can it now fire missiles (of course no one talks about the current price of the T-90)!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Aug 2013 08:58

for now, as long as it fits the requirements, and can do the job and go operational, is all that is needed. the weight and the areas of bridges that it needs to cross CTs are BS.. and does not carry any operational weight in the logic.

remote controlled unmanned tanks should be the next in line thoughts after mk3.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Aug 2013 18:10

For a start,a 3-man crewed tank is essential.It stands to reason that such a tank will be smaller and lighter by at least 10t.It should possess an auto-loader dispensing with the loader.Two-man crewed tanks have been in the works for some time,but the stress would be too much for a 2-man crew.If the DRDO/CVRDE can develop an indigenous 3-man MBT,then the IA would no longer have the excuse that the desi MBT is too heavy or cannot fit in with the IA's 3-man tank doctrine.If this tank can accommodate a large portion of the capabilities that the IA want for the FMBT,it will be difficult to stop as an interim measure.If certain tech has to be acquired rm abroad,then we must.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Aug 2013 18:44

is making the Engine+Transmission in India

I have talked with plenty of Indians who design engines at companies like Ford/GM/Cat/etc, and they ALL say there is only one reason why India cannot build engines for tanks in India: economics of the idea.

This is from a few years ago. Perhaps with an effort to build a 1500 hp engine that too could have changed.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 16 Aug 2013 06:19

Philip wrote:For a start,a 3-man crewed tank is essential.It stands to reason that such a tank will be smaller and lighter by at least 10t.It should possess an auto-loader dispensing with the loader.Two-man crewed tanks have been in the works for some time,but the stress would be too much for a 2-man crew.If the DRDO/CVRDE can develop an indigenous 3-man MBT,then the IA would no longer have the excuse that the desi MBT is too heavy or cannot fit in with the IA's 3-man tank doctrine.If this tank can accommodate a large portion of the capabilities that the IA want for the FMBT,it will be difficult to stop as an interim measure.If certain tech has to be acquired rm abroad,then we must.

It is equally essential to reproduce the tin can's rattle as that is a vital part of the "smaller and lighter tank" spec.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Aug 2013 09:59

ERA Hobbes! Plus Kanchan armour.Removing the extra crew member could bring the weight down to 50+ t.
The Arjun is 58.5t+ More than 10 t heavier than a T-90 which weighs 47.5t.I posted in the past the size and specs of the current crop of MBTs worldwide.In order to increase protection/firepower a weight penalty will be incurred, MBTs could be upgraded to 50t+.

These are the specs/detailsfrom Wik reg. the Arjun and its planned improvments.If the weight goes above 60t,both weight,logistic support,terrain,and cost will be a factor. As I said,a 3-man tank is the only option for the DRDO.Since we already have the T-90s auto loader,Kanchan armour,new NERA added protection,why can't we install it in a new design which incorporates most of the planned A-2/3 improvements?

Protection
Arjun Mk-I

The turret and glacis are heavily armoured and use "Kanchan" ("gold") modular composite armour. The Kanchan armour got its name from Kanchan Bagh, Hyderabad, where the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) is located.[40] The armour is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA) to defeat APFDS or HEAT rounds. During the trials in 2000, the Kanchan was able to withstand a hit from a T-72 at point blank range, and was able to defeat all available HESH and APFSDS rounds, which included the Israeli APFSDS rounds.[40] A new honeycomb design non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) armour is reportedly being tested on the Arjun. Nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) protection equipment mine sweeps and an automatic fire fighting system. Electromagnetic-counter mine system can also be installed an electromagnetic pulse to disable magnetic mines and disrupt electronics before the tank reaches them signature reduction suite is also available for the is designed to reduce the probabilities of an object to be detected by Infrared, Thermal, Radar-Thermal, and Radar bands.[39]electro-optical/IR "dazzlers" Laser warning receivers,aerosol grenade discharging systems and a computerised control system.the tank has been 'painted' by a weapon-guidance laser and allows the crew to slew the turret to face the threat. The infrared jammer, laser rangefinders and designators navigation (Inertia/GPS), observation systems and sensors, real-time command and beyond-vision-range target engaging.advanced Fire Control System (FCS) linked to a millimetre band radar system laser range-finder and crosswind sensoronboard millimetre band radar, IR and radiometer sensors. The millimetre band radar system mounted on the turret is capable of operating as a Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) Visual and Infrared Screening Smoke also has a Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) and radar jammer. Four all-bearing Laser warning receivers (LWR)The new fire-control system enables the Arjun to shoot down helicopters and find and destroy armoured attack helicopters Battle Management System Battle Management System panoramic sight The commander's station is equipped with eight periscopes for 360° vision.ommander's independent thermal viewer, weapon station, position navigation equipment, and a full set of controls and displays linked by a digital data bus.improved fire control system.[18] The System Enhancement Package (SEP) added digital maps,improved cooling system to compensate for heat generated by the additional computer systems.FBCB2 capabilities,FBCB2 capabilities,New radars,EW Systems,C4ISR Systems,gun control system (GCS).[9]Integrated Battlefield Management System" (IBMS) and Active protection System.[41]

A Mobile Camouflage System has been developed and integrated into the Arjun as part of the 'Development of Defensive Aids System' project.[42] in collaboration with Barracuda Camouflage Limited,to reduce the vehicle signature against all known sensors and smart munitions.

An Advanced Laser Warning Countermeasure System (ALWCS) for the fire control system has been developed. This consists of a laser warning system, Infra-Red (IR) jammer and aerosol smoke grenade system. This is being developed jointly with Elbit Systems Limited of Israel. The ALWCS has been integrated on Arjun MBT and trials have been carried out.[42][43]
Mobility

The engine and transmission are provided by German companies MTU and Renk respectively.[44] The water-cooled engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and epicyclic train gearbox with four forward and 2 reverse gears.[45] A local transmission is under trials and it is envisioned to ultimately replace the Renk-supplied unit.[44] The tracks which were being supplied by German company Diehl are now being manufactured by L&T.[44] The cooling pack has been designed for desert operations. The Arjun has a lower ground pressure than the lighter T-72, due to its design.[44]

The Arjun features a hydro-pneumatic suspension.[46] This coupled with the Arjun's stabilisation and fire control system allows the tank excellent first-hit probability against moving targets while on the move.[46] Its ride comfort is highly praised.[46] Though on the negative side, it is a more maintenance-intensive and expensive system, even if more capable than the simpler and cheaper torsion bar system utilised on many older tanks worldwide.[47] During trials, the Arjun showcased its fording capability, by driving under six feet of water for 20 minutes.[48]

A new 1500 hp engine is being developed that will eventually replace the present engine. An allocation of INR40 crore (US$6.8 million) has been allocated for the project which is expected to be completed within five years.[49]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjun_%28tank%29

Is this also accurate from our latest reports? Any idea of the weight of MK-2 undergoing trials?

Arjun tank hull and turret has been modified to achieve the target weight of about 55 tons from 59-64 tons. Elbit is helping to enhance its firepower and battlefield survivability and IMI is helping to augment Arjun Mk II’s mobility, redesign its turret and hull and improve its production-line processes.[83]

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 16 Aug 2013 11:13

Philip wrote:If the DRDO/CVRDE can develop an indigenous 3-man MBT,then the IA would no longer have the excuse that the desi MBT is too heavy or cannot fit in with the IA's 3-man tank doctrine.

Sar, what makes you think IA won't have excuse? Was it not IA who asked Arjun to be 4-man tank?
Let the army accept Arjun which they asked for in first place. Then we can think of making a 3-man FMBT.
Besides, army itself is visionless and has no clues how it wants to fight wars after 2020(Did they provide PSQR for FMBT?If you make something they will say "Did we ask for this?")

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Aug 2013 12:31

Sameer,Arjun's QSR was dawn up almost 3 decades ago,when we were operating Vijayantas! The IA had to order the first batch after Arjun made the grade,and has asked for and got the dozens of improvements asked for for Mk-2.The issue still is weight.It isn't something to be lightly considered,as a whole logistics train is needed to support the tank after it has been inducted.This where we are generally lacking with home made products,because local pvt. industry has yet too be integrated enough with the DPSUs so that there is a seamless supply of spares etc.Now that the first order of 124 has been accepted by the IA,the proverbial "foot is inside the door",or the " (armoured) camel's nose inside the tent"! The IA cannot ignore the A-2 if it passes trial and will be persuaded to accept more.

Nevertheless,the DRDO should look ahead with a new design as the IA earlier gave it some specs for an FMBT.We already have tech for armour,guns,suspension,and some of the other eqpt. and ammo.nag is on the way.It is mainly the engine and other critical eqpt. like thermal imagers,el-op devices,anti-missile/projectile defences which we are now importing,that need to be progressively replaced.the Arjun at least is in series production,it has crossed the "hill",and is one significant step ahead of the LCA,as MK-2 prototypes are also undergoing trials.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Aug 2013 12:48

With the S**t Pakis and Lizard has Arjun Mk1 may be more that sufficient and I do not know why we are all want to Gora mall

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Aug 2013 08:57

are the jilebi makers on night shift duties making billions? i don't mind bong soan papadi as well.

up!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Aug 2013 09:08

Helping Syrian rebels wouldn’t benefit US - Dempsey

In an August 19 letter to Congressman Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.), Dempsey writes that the US military had the capability to destroy the Syrian air force and thus shift the balance of the two year old war in favor of the rebels. The General however doubts the reasonability of doing so.

"The use of U.S. military force can change the military balance,” Dempsey said. “But it cannot resolve the underlying and historic ethnic, religious and tribal issues that are fueling this conflict.''

Engel is an advocate of increasing US military presence in Syria. He proposed the use of cruise missiles and other weapons against Assad-controlled air bases in his letter to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, dated August 5. Dempsey has on the contrary continually warned the country’s political elite against stronger military commitment in the conflict, citing the US experience in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In his letter, Dempsey points out the factionalism of the Syrian opposition, not all of which shares the Western vision of the country’s future.

“Syria today is not about choosing between two sides but rather about choosing one among many sides,'' Dempsey says. “It is my belief that the side we choose must be ready to promote their interests and ours when the balance shifts in their favor. Today, they are not.''

Dempsey described Syria's war as “tragic and complex”, which has been supported by the recent developments there.

On Wednesday, reports emerged of deadly chemical weapons use in Syria, with conflicting accounts of the events in the media giving the number of casualties from dozens to over 1,000. The news came on the same day that the UN inspectors arrive in Damascus to investigate allegations of use of toxic arms.

The Syrian conflict has already killed more than 100,000 people, with atrocities being committed on all sides. On Tuesday, Kurdish militias battled against Al-Qaida-linked fighters in the northeast of Syria. Iraqi officials had to set up an entry quota for Syrian Kurds fleeing escalating violence against them in what’s developing into a full blown side conflict of the Syrian war.

When the House and Senate Intelligence Committees gave a green light to arm Syrian rebels in July, Martin Dempsey was not optimistic about the move, warning of the huge expenses military options entailed, specifying that a no-fly zone over Syria could cost the US between $500 million and $1 billion a month to maintain. He reiterated his concerns in the letter to Engel.

“It is a deeply rooted, long-term conflict among multiple factions, and violent struggles for power will continue after Assad's rule ends,” he wrote. “We should evaluate the effectiveness of limited military options in this context.”

Dempsey thus supported the Obama administration's current policy of providing humanitarian assistance and some limited help to moderate opposition, saying that would be “the best framework for an effective U.S. strategy toward Syria.''

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 22 Aug 2013 15:36

Philip wrote:The issue still is weight.It isn't something to be lightly considered,as a whole logistics train is needed to support the tank after it has been inducted. This where we are generally lacking with home made products,because local pvt. industry has yet too be integrated enough with the DPSUs so that there is a seamless supply of spares etc.

I will not talk about weight as its already been discussed many times here.

Also there is no point in blaming the local pvt industry,
What environment did army create for local private to be interested in producing any components/spare?
All the time army was bad mouthing the product, then why will any private company take interest in producing spares/components?

From an entrepreneur's point of view:
1. if the end user keeps talking bad things about some product X, and keeps saying they don't want it and they don't need it; then shall I dare to start a unit to produce any spares or components for that product X, which itself don't have any prospects.

2. Why will I invest to setup a production line which has to produce only 124 units of some product? My plant will be running for 12-18 months and will sit idle for uncertain period of time. Am I bitten by a mad dog to put my money in something which will not be producing anything after a year or two?

3. Where will I get skilled workers who will be happy with 12 months job? and How will I pay them if the plant id idle for 3-4 years? If I fire them, how can I hire them again after 3-4 years again on short term, IF army places new order for the product X?

The attitude of Army and media have actually discouraged and scared away many many entrepreneurs and industries.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Aug 2013 05:43

Sameer,I personally know of two companies who have been supplying tank components for the T-72 and Vijayanta earlier for decades.In fact during the last face-off and spat with China many,many moons ago,one of these entities was the only supplier in the country for a vital component and had to do a rush job.There have been various industry-DRDO/IA meetings ,expos, where parts to be indigenised were displayed.The problem is that you need to have the patience of a saint to be able to make a breakthrough with the enormous red tape involved in the MOD's babu kingdom, and deep pockets as well. It is far easier for firang imports of spares and components to be made where pockets are deeper.In truth,there has only been "lip service" by the MOD/GOI towards genuine indigenisation.Either the DPSUs must bake the cake,or it must be bought from an outside bakery.The crumbs are given to India industry and unless the DPSUs simply cannot do the business,Indian industry is turned to.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 26 Aug 2013 08:00

Philip wrote:the Arjun at least is in series production,it has crossed the "hill",and is one significant step ahead of the LCA,as MK-2 prototypes are also undergoing trials.

You have to be smoking something to say that the Arjun is in series production!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Aug 2013 18:13

Well,hasn't MK-1,the first order of 124 tanks been completed? Here is a Jan 2013 report.

India Reverses Gear, Puts Arjun Tank Back in Production
Jan 28, 2013 by Defense Industry Daily staff

Arjun tank
Arjun tank
(click to view full)

India’s indigenous Arjun tank project began in 1974, and originally aimed to replace the Russian T-54 and T-72 tanks which made up the bulk of that country’s armored firepower. As has often been the case in India, its DRDO government weapons development agency sought an entirely made in India solution, even though this would require major advances on a number of fronts for Indian industry. As has often been the case in India, the result was a long and checkered history filled with development delays, performance issues, mid-project specifications changes by India’s military, and the eventual purchase of both foreign substitutions within the project (now 58% of the tank’s cost) and foreign competitors from outside it (the T-90S).

The 58.5 tonne Arjun tank wasn’t fielded with the Indian Army until May 2009. In contrast, Pakistan’s much more time-limited, scope-limited, and budget conscious approach in developing and successfully fielding its T-80UD “Al-Khalid” tank external link is often cited by Arjun’s detractors.

The Russian T-90S will form the mainstay of India’s future force, despite that tank’s performance issues in hot weather external link. That won’t change, but after beating the T-90 in a number of trials, the Arjun now has a clear future in India…
Advertisement

Arjun Cap, and T-90S Trade
T-90 Catching Air
T-90, backside ollie
(click to view full)

The Arjun is an indigenous project, but not wholly so. Imported items such as the engine/ power pack, gunner’s main sight, and other components account for 58% of each tank’s cost. This is not uncommon around the world. Israel’s Merkava tank family also relies on a foreign-built engine, for instance, as does France’s Leclerc.

It is uncommon among Indian policy-makers, but the reality is that a series of project failures gave them little choice. The Arjun has been plagued with a mix of problems over its 36-year development history, including its fire control system, suspension issues, and poor mobility due to excessive weight. It has also grown from a 40-tonne tank with a 105mm gun, to a 62-67 tonne tank with a 120mm gun. Predictably, project costs spiraled up from Rs 15.5 crore in 1974 to Rs 306 crore (INR 3.06 trillion). The army was not pleased. In an unusual stance, they accepted the tank only after a third-party audit by an international tank manufacturer, and orders were strictly limited.

The Indian army didn’t even stand up its 1st Arjun armored regiment until May 2009, 35 years after the program began. To underscore the point, even that milestone followed a development that seemed to end the platform’s future. In July 2008, India had announced that production of the Arjun would be capped at the already-committed total of 124 vehicles. Instead, development would begin on a new next-generation tank, designed to survive and serve until 2040 or so.

That appeared to close the book on a failed project, but opinion in India was sharply split. Many observers cited this as the final failure. Other were noting the problems with the T-90s, and the Army’s refusal to conduct side-by-side tests, alongside recent test successes that began earning the Arun some military fans. In May 2010 desert trials alongside the T-90S, the Arjun did surprisingly well.

In response, the government and the Army changed course somewhat. Arjun production would double to 248. That’s an improvement, but DRDO insists that a 500 vehicle order is needed to give them the volume needed to iron out all production difficulties, and provide a platform for future development.

The Army’s plan still calls for 1,657 T-90S “Bhishma” tanks external link at about 12 crore (INR 120 million, about $2.78 million) each if prices remain stable. About 1,000 of those are slated to be built in India by Avadi Heavy Industries, the same firm that builds the Arjuns. They will be joined by just 248 Arjuns at about 16.8 crore (INR 168 million, about $3.92 million) each, as well as 692 older T-72 tanks upgraded to the T-72M1 “Ajeya” standard external link. This overall plan changes the force structure proposed in 2006, from 3,780 tanks (1,302 T-90s and 2,480 T-72s) to 2,597 higher-end tanks.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Aug 2013 18:30

124 is it. There are no further orders. And 124 tanks can not be really considered a production run. More like 500 would have been. Now the production lines or should we say test production lines will be idle and perhaps employees terminate till further orders are given. The next order is for 124 MK2 even though MK1 destroyed the IA's MBT pretender the T90 tin can. MK2 orders will be released upon completion of user trials which could go as the mafia wants them to go - ie torsion bar failures or transmission failures etc.