India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 09 Dec 2011 16:31

Common sense would speak for the rafale being the L1 by a fair margin over a 40 years period. (I do not look at the offset problematic here where the typhoon could get more points than the rafale).

-It is a smaller aiframe.
-It has smaller, 10 years newer engines (M88-E4) which were specifically developed to diminish cost of ownership.
-It has much less moving parts than the typhoon thus less maintenance required and less risk of failure (fixed intake, probe, radar, no dorsal airbrake).
-1000 hours airframe life span advantage vs the Typhoon (6000h vs 7000h). It's a solid navalized airframe.
-Synergies with the M2K-5 fleet (facilities, electronic, weapons).
-possibility to use it as a common fighter with the indian navy.
-It is already developped so the risk of "hidden" costs is much lower than for the Typhoon.

As for the technical part it has always been rated superior to the typhoon by the airforces who compared them (Korea, Singapore, Neetherlands, Brazil and Switzerland. (and waiting for an official indian declaration)

Basically Typoon Gmbh will need to make an extremly agressive commercial offer with an exellent offsset package to win the deal. In the end I think it is quite open for both even if I see a slight advantage for the rafale.

koti · Post by **koti** » 09 Dec 2011 17:36

I am not uncertain anymore......
Aurtho and Septimus are on payrolls of Dassault and EADS....

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 09 Dec 2011 17:52

MMRCA aircraft will probably have to last a good 40-50 years in IAF service (unless UCAVs prove to be Dreadnoughts). Which of the selected ones offer better long term updatability and upgradeablity? If there are any deficiencies in current capabilities in one aircraft relative to the other I am sure it will be MKIzed away fairly quickly.

I suspect cyclones last longer, blow harder and do more damage than squalls.

manum · Post by **manum** » 09 Dec 2011 18:50

MKIzation of the fighter...Then its typhoon...It has all the essential ingredients and surplus space to do it...May in matter of MKIzation cost analysis Rafale may go down, another loss for a totally different reason...

manum · Post by **manum** » 09 Dec 2011 19:30

It has much less moving parts than the typhoon thus less maintenance required and less risk of failure (fixed intake, probe, radar, no dorsal airbrake).

Basically Typoon Gmbh will need to make an extremly agressive commercial offer with an exellent offsset package to win the deal. In the end I think it is quite open for both even if I see a slight advantage for the rafale.

I find this argument rather clumsy...Yes fixed parts increase longevity, but it'll be untrue that other moving parts don't...risk is more (humm)...but then I would love Rafale to make a movable radar...

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 09 Dec 2011 19:39

arthuro wrote:Technical evaluation is over now but rafale proved to be an exellent AtA fighter. ATLC, Corsica or the swiss evaluation showed its superiority to the EF is that area even againsat the lattest itteration of the EF.

The iteration in question would be the Captor-E, HMSS and Brimstone equipped Eurofighter Tranche 3, since that's what the IAF is being offered. The radar will clearly have greater power and a larger FoV, and the aircraft will likely enter combat with greater kinematic energy. Within visual range it boils down to pilot skill and lady luck - the Rafale has a better nose pointing ability and better control at low speeds and high AoA while the EF is equipped with a considerably better dogfighting missile. DASS vs SPECTRA? Both are due to be upgraded and no informed comparison is possible.

Given that we've spent many an hour debating this, one would simply have to agree to disagree. I believe the IAF would have emphasized high altitude BVR performance during its tech evaluations, others feel the ability to carry fuel or heavy munitions on the two extra wetpoints would have given the Rafale the edge.

As for L1 the rafale "should be" the natural winner : The rafale is smaller with newer, smaller engines, less moving parts (fixed intakes, fixed refueling probe, no dorsal brake, fixed radar) and it is already developped. It can also beneficiates from the mirage 2000-5mk2 facilities and weapons.

Almost the same flyaway cost. The Rafale would have an edge in operating cost while the EF would have advantages in the quoted cost of ToT, commercial opportunities and the offsets proposal (which HAL members in the evaluation would be really interested in). I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

Last but not least the rafale option opens a strategic perspective to operate a common fighter with the Indian Navy.

What do you propose the Indian Navy do with its MiG-29Ks and N-Tejas'? Introducing a third 4th gen aircraft would lead to greater rather than fewer logistical issues.

Another point that speaks for the rafale is nuclear cooperation with france. The magajoul facility in France could be an immense asset for indian researcher to keep indian deterrence credible and modern. UK is already using it for its nuclear deterrence.

The idea of France assisting India with its nuclear weapons program is to put it politely... farfetched.

Besides, the MoD has a made a point of running the acquisition as professionally as possible and any alleyway offers aren't going to have any influence over the actual selection, otherwise the US would have walked away with the contract (without its support India is unlikely to have gotten a very valuable exemption from the IAEA and NSG).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Dec 2011 19:49

Singha wrote:the rafale falls somewhere in between these two stools...a plane that does everything on the earth without being the best at any...

precision strike !

Philip wrote:It's a boy! It's a girl... its the superbird....the Rafoon!
(at super price too,so dip into your pockets guys,YOU will be paying the price!)

fault of Russians, sleeping after cold war.

meanwhile some where in the ..dark corners:

The cassadians may deliver much before! being a partner, they can immediately fill by providing training ahead, and provide couple of squadrons of old Efs from Germany and Britain till the first 18 arrives.

They say: are considering cost price.
Survival of the Fittest!

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 09 Dec 2011 22:23

Is there no such thing as "value for money"? The Rafale gets kicked out 3 separate competitions in relatively rich countries on this very count, but we need a super-duper fighter to combat the phantom fighters of Chinese.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Dec 2011 00:45

abhik wrote:Is there no such thing as "value for money"? The Rafale gets kicked out 3 separate competitions in relatively rich countries on this very count, but we need a super-duper fighter to combat the phantom fighters of Chinese.

Phantom fighters? Do a search on the web for the numbers of Su-27 and other Flanker variants that the Chinese operate. Add the number of J-10s to it as well. And then add the PAF to it since we might well end up facing both adversaries together in any future conflict. There is pretty much no other country in the world (rich or otherwise) facing such a threat scenario.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Dec 2011 02:15

Karan M wrote:
It also speaks volumes that India's own industry, when it had to seek professional advice and third party consultancy, on a paid basis, for the LCA, first went to Dassault, then Lock Mart, then BAE, and now is with EADS and BAE after Boeing could not meet requirements (legal problems). Nowhere did the makers of the Gripen manage to beat out the other vendors in a fair race. The Indian HAL radar when stuck, was fixed by Elta. Not the Gripen radar makers. Tomorrow, when we field the LCA MK2 radar, we'll again go directly to the radar vendor with best experience, we don't need a system integrator to tell us what is what either.

Just one nitpick here Karan- India did approach Saab way back in the early 1990s for a potential partnership on the LCA but they didn't show any interest in the project and consequently it didn't go forward. BAe however, did act as a consultant for ADA.

India had previously approached Saab of Sweden and British Aerospace as potential partners for the LCA programme, but neither company appears willing to gamble on the project.

link to FlightGlobal article

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Dec 2011 02:53

Rafoon or Tyfale? Toss a coin. I think that the winning bird does not have to offer a "naval" variant which is completely tangential to the IAF's needs.As said above,the MIG-29K and LCA naval are sufficint for our needs.In fact,with the VSTOL Sea Harriers dwindling in our inventory and unless we buy mothballed ex-RN Sea Harriers and modernise them,in a few years the Viraat (game for another 10-15 yrs say reports) will have but a handful operational.Given its small size,it may be possible to operate the LCA-N from the Viraat in STOBAR manner,if the chocks and arrestor wires are introduced.Designed initially for cat launches,adding the wires and chocks shouldn't be too difficult.It would alsocome in far cheaper than either of the two MMRCA would-be birds.A naval variant of the PAK-FA/FGFA woul be the best option for a future naval top end fighter.I can't see us buying more than 120++ bcause the prohibitive cost.Once LCA-MK 2 arrives,it will surely scale down any licenced production of the MMRCA on the issue of price.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Dec 2011 02:58

With few exceptions,Indian specfic changes are almost mandatory for most of the military equipment bought by India. Not fully developed EF fits the pattern as it provide ample oppertunity for Indians to mould it per their own requirement. Both planes are good but EF has the small edge becuase of the above flexibility.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Dec 2011 03:10

whoever it is, I want a major private participation here.. I want to see how the private help provide a healthy support to HAL.

The MMRCA may be just a beginning in making components for them. In the future, they could advance and set a stage to manufacture advanced components, and perhaps participate in aMCA.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Dec 2011 04:20

Conduct of UK/Germany etc and that the France may be a factor in the final decision. Rafa Marketting people conducts and Nuclear Ayathullas in Berlin are already known problems. If properly marketed then Rafa may win on political factors. All said and done relationship has to be sustained for few decades and we can depend on french not just becuase they are great frinds but because they are money minded. Can we depend on EF producers ? I do not think so.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Dec 2011 04:38

dependency issue:

see.. that is where we have put in a lot of money and time to draft the RFPs, where it should have clearly defined the ToTing terms, and local manufacturing, etc. I can't think of some one missing one line on payments and supplies, continuity and sustainability during war times.

if our drafting is that bad, then face it.. get choked. /sins of writing bad deals and contracts.

there is also other ways to increase dependency on locally produced components and products.. LCA-Mk2. If we can get it all 100%, then we have the least dependency. I doubt we have that.. it is impossible with our current status.

OTOH, if you join the NATO logistic forces, and go on ops like in libya etc.. then I see India playing better politics. The dependencies are 50% politics and 50% machine. unfortunately, we are not a super power yet, like the khans or russkies, where we can do it all by ourselves.

so, we need to cut down our rhetoric on dependency a little bit.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Dec 2011 05:28

This has been a political game so far. I expect it to be split 100 each. The IAF will, IMVVVHO, will have to swallow the pill.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Dec 2011 06:20

NRao wrote:This has been a political game so far. I expect it to be split 100 each. The IAF will, IMVVVHO, will have to swallow the pill.

IF it is a political game (and I don't yet agree), then the $20bn price tag vs a $/INR exchange rate of ~53 will cause the MoF to call for fresh tenders given the budget impact. No money has yet been allocated for the MMRCA it is still subject to MoF approval.

This is what LM/Boeing/GOTUS are waiting for.

If only guided by IAF considerations (most likely), only one will be chosen. The loser will get other contracts--more scorpenes or HDWs

Either way, not a MEA influenced decision and no split order.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Dec 2011 14:38

The public spat,insults traded between Sarko and Cameron, and divorce between France and Britain over the future of the Euro/EU,will cast its shadow over the decision.I've posted in the Geo-Pol. thread the history of relations between France and "perfidious Albion",now in the ditch yet again.France and Germany are locked in an embrace,with the rest of the EU in tow,while Britain will have to go "poodle" walk again to Uncle Obama Sam,to retain some of its lost prestige and dignity.

This is going to result in a gladiatorial battle- a fight to the finish, to win the MMRCA prize and all stops will be pulled out,for it is not just economic survival for the two aircraft industries,but a matter of great prestige now.Each will up the ante to claim the victor's laurels.While Germany is linked with Britain in this deal,it is more the lead role being taken by BAe/Britain touting the EF that matters.

The decision is therefore going to be a political one,as most reports have leaked out the fact tht the costs of the two are almost the same,to be expected with the EU cartel at work.But the latest develoments will shatter that tarde-off and its now "every man for himself,the devil take the hindmost".Therefore,what poiitcal and material advantage will each side bring with it?
As far as Frane is concerned,the promise of much N-tech shaning is its strongest factor.It will even here face severe copetition from Russia,whih already has a foothold in the country with KKM and more N-plants there and elsewhere,to be inked on the PM's visit to Moscow this week.In comparison,Germany has abandoned N-power,and has less to offer than the French even in the defence off-set realm.France has engines,radars,avionics,missiles,subs ,stealth tech.for warships,etc.,the whole caboodle to offer in TOT.Even a joint Anglo-German offer will not bring in more than the Frenh,probably les and that too a 'splintered" offer.

I therefore predict that in the political advantage stakes which also weigh in with the decision making,the French have gained a sudden advantage over the Anglo-EU team.As said before, this deal is tailor made for the French,with the hugely expensive M-2000 upgrade already in the bag,giving them great bargaining power.Catch Germany and Britain now agreeing on the price of an EF when thy are at war over the Euro! However,Germany can also be rewarded with extra U-boats,and the German-Italian combine with NH-90 ASW helos to assuage the Eyeties too-who have done well already with their tanker deals,etc.The Brits have extra Hawks in the bag as the wodden spoon perhaps (!)

Vive la France!

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 10 Dec 2011 17:10

arthuro wrote:Common sense would speak for the rafale being the L1 by a fair margin over a 40 years period. (I do not look at the offset problematic here where the typhoon could get more points than the rafale).

-It is a smaller aiframe.
-It has smaller, 10 years newer engines (M88-E4) which were specifically developed to diminish cost of ownership.
-It has much less moving parts than the typhoon thus less maintenance required and less risk of failure (fixed intake, probe, radar, no dorsal airbrake).
-1000 hours airframe life span advantage vs the Typhoon (6000h vs 7000h). It's a solid navalized airframe.
-Synergies with the M2K-5 fleet (facilities, electronic, weapons).
-possibility to use it as a common fighter with the indian navy.
-It is already developped so the risk of "hidden" costs is much lower than for the Typhoon.

As for the technical part it has always been rated superior to the typhoon by the airforces who compared them (Korea, Singapore, Neetherlands, Brazil and Switzerland. (and waiting for an official indian declaration)

Basically Typoon Gmbh will need to make an extremly agressive commercial offer with an exellent offsset package to win the deal. In the end I think it is quite open for both even if I see a slight advantage for the rafale.

smaller aiframe still it takes less man hours to maintain the EF than the Raffy. The EF for India will come with TVC, M-88 doesnt. The EF airframe guarantees 6000 inspection free life. Its max faitgue life has been tested for well over 8000 hrs. Which practically means with its 3rd gen radar, TVC, etc, I wont need MLU till 6000 hrs and MLU will only add far more advanced tech that we developed together with the consortium. However, with a puny radar, no tvc, the Rafale will need a larger upgrade at the same 6000 hrs as well and its really not as advanced in avionics. The G-suits are better on EF, the pilot can pull 9 g without glock for extended periods. It has better Meteor ability. The aircraft will come with better prospects for industry. Wont be long before we begin feeding in spares and critical parts to other EF users and which on any given day will be far more than the Raffy. Raffy is a good aircraft and like singha puts it, it does everything without doing anything really well. Ef has better potential in our inventory than raffy.

http://dtas2007.fyper.com/userfiles/fil ... Dilger.pdf

Coming to Navy version, EF with TVC and strengthened landing gear can take off from our ships as well and it will come with tvc and the same bigger radar which thus makes the raffy navy version inferior to the proposed EF navy version. Raffy was never rated technically superior to aircraft with similar capabilities. Raffy's suppossed technical supriority is often claimed in ridiculous proportions that make it firstly not even probable. EF never had the same type of avionics to compete, EF for India is a whole different ball game. EF flies higher, faster, with tvc will have better slow speed and low level performance and has far more going on with it.

Its ridiculous raffy doesnt even have a retractable probe. We are better off going for the better aircraft and EF is by far the better aircraft.

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 10 Dec 2011 18:30

Singha wrote:

in IAF as with many other AF's the a2a oriented 'fighter jocks' probably form a powerful lobby on the command track....pilots who started on the Mig29 and M2K are in command positions now...

Who is the current Chief of Air Staff and what aircraft did he help introduce in the IAF? Wouldn't that be Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne who flew the Jaguar (was part of the first batch of IAF pilots to go to the UK for training) and help absorb the Jaguar in IAF service?

NRao wrote:

This has been a political game so far. I expect it to be split 100 each. The IAF will, IMVVVHO, will have to swallow the pill.

If that happens the that wouldn't be such a bad thing for the IAF, there is no pill to swallow as both platforms offer unique capabilities and could very well complement each other. Also over time the "100 of each" will grow to 140 or 160 of each.

Karan M wrote:

And stop attacking the two aircraft consortiums that did make the cut, their nationalities ("French suck, Dassault suck, yada yada") and act a bit grown up.

Or perhaps, thats asking for too much.

Hear, hear!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2011 18:52

I could live with 100 of each. like black forest cake and banana nut muffins each have superb taste in their own context. let the Rafale's lead the DPSA & Growler pack and EF/MKI establish air dominance.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 10 Dec 2011 19:58

Rafale has no growler pack, India has no growler pack and will take years before we have any sort of growler pack. for a growler pack we should have bought the SH.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2011 20:06

the stuff thats going into the emb145 is our growler pack.

arnabh · Post by **arnabh** » 10 Dec 2011 20:28

Time for India to invest in Western defense companies:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Rap ... %3A45%3A39

http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/TimetoA ... dke_291111

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Dec 2011 20:36

That EF-MKI air dominance would virtually sanitize area for 300-400km. So, any anti-SEAD platform is nullified ahead.

In addition, weapons are from a combination vympel r27, aim-7 to raytheon harms, joint stand-offs.. I am sure unkill will try to get a big slice of stores here.

Kovy · Post by **Kovy** » 10 Dec 2011 21:12

Singha wrote:its easier for a good a2a plane to become a effective a2g plane - f15, f16, su27 all started out as pure-play a2a.

So did the Rafale. The Rafale F1 were pure A2A fighters.

the rafale falls somewhere in between these two stools...a plane that does everything on the earth without being the best at any...

The Rafale is the best low altitude deep stricker ever
There is no other fighter that can beat it when it comes to strike deep inside the ennemy territory with zero visibility (night/all weather) at high speed and very low altitude in automatic terrain following mode without any A2A or dedicated Electronic warfare escort. It doesn't even have to pop up to egage several targets in one pass as the scalps and AASM (as well as ASMP-A) can do it themselves.

Possibly, only the F-35 will match the Rafale efficiency in that role when it will be operational (relying on stealth rather than low altitude though).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2011 21:21

ok I agree - missed that in my rant, Rafa is indeed the best in the dpsa role at present. the f-15e benefits from khan network of systems which covers its weaknesses if any....

Rafa in any case knocks the socks off Jag or Mig27 in strike - thats 200+ airframes right there to replace eventually, starting with the Mig27

I am all for a 50:50 "we love you =equal=" kind of deal

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 10 Dec 2011 21:47

Septimus P. wrote:Rafale has no growler pack, India has no growler pack and will take years before we have any sort of growler pack. for a growler pack we should have bought the SH.

The Growler pack is just an assortment of electronics for ECM/ECCM purposes with its management the sole responsibility of the second pilot. Since the US has been operating this type of aircraft since the 70's, they have perfected the hardware/software/operations. But that doesn't mean that others (including India) cannot build one. Israel or France does not have one and both of them would be willing participants if we are willing to put some money into it.

I believe that the Su-30MKI is the best platform for this upgrade. Since we have started building these birds, we'll be in a better position to tweak the airframe to accommodate the new hardware.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Dec 2011 22:32

Kovy wrote:The Rafale is the best low altitude deep stricker ever
There is no other fighter that can beat it when it comes to strike deep inside the ennemy territory with zero visibility (night/all weather) at high speed and very low altitude in automatic terrain following mode without any A2A or dedicated Electronic warfare escort. It doesn't even have to pop up to egage several targets in one pass as the scalps and AASM (as well as ASMP-A) can do it themselves.

The EF can fly high speed low altitude in automatic terrain following mode without escorts or EW support, and after the P1E update (2012-13) will be able to engage multiple targets in a single pass.

That said, the EF will carry less fuel externally (until it gets CFTs) and will have to employ its munitions in either a lofted manner or by popping up (unless its a SEAD/DEAD mission, where it can employ the HARM or ALARM).

The AASM gives the Rafale a unique capability here for interdiction and CAS missions, but at $300,000 each, its a pricey option. Especially compared to glide bombs. The JDAM's cost is estimated at about $25,000 each (higher for the JDAM-ER variant), while the SDB II with a range of 110km+ is expected to come in well under $100,000 (with the price expected to drop further once it enters high volume production).

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 10 Dec 2011 23:07

Isn't this good news

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/11/ ... dates.html

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 11 Dec 2011 00:05

I think MMRCA has served its purpose we'll till now. In a small way helped in the nuke deal.

Anything chosen here is good, though I prefer the Rafael a bit more.. It is better to give the deal to L1 and who is desperate for the deal and willing to give the last pound of flesh in terms of additional deals. Time to think ahead

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Dec 2011 01:45

anything?

we have only two here, with four choices:

A. Rafale
B. Typhoon
C. Both
D. None

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Dec 2011 02:26

Rolls-Royce, HAL To Build Aero Engines Production Facility

Dec 8, 2011

By Jay Menon jaymenon68@gmail.com
NEW DELHI

India’s state-run military airframer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and British engine maker Rolls-Royce have rolled out plans to build a joint manufacturing facility in southern India to produce civil aircraft engine components and subsystems.

“The production facility will produce components, for the technologically advanced Trent family of civil aero engines, as well as for a number of marine and energy gas turbines,” HAL said in a statement today. Production is projected to start next year.

The facility will integrate the latest techniques of Rolls-Royce and “create job opportunities for highly skilled technicians and engineers in India,” the statement says.

The facility — about 7,200 sq. meters in size and located near the HAL airport in Bengaluru — is owned by International Aerospace Manufacturing Private Ltd. (IAMPL), a joint venture between HAL and Rolls-Royce that was formed last year.

India has been a customer of Rolls-Royce’s military engines for about five decades. HAL has been building Rolls-Royce engines under license for India’s Jaguar fighter and the Hawk advanced jet trainer fleet.

Rolls-Royce, whose engines power Airbus and Boeing passenger aircraft, has been sourcing ring forgings from HAL for its civil engines since 2003.

The company has about 200 employees in India, and 650 engineers work on a subcontract basis in engineering centers in Bengaluru.

“As a result of our strong collaboration, we have progressively contributed to the development of the Indian aerospace industry. This groundbreaking event marks a milestone in the relationship between both our companies that will extend well into the future,” HAL Chairman P.V. Deshmukh says.

Anil Shrikhande, president of Rolls-Royce’s Indian unit, says, “We plan to develop IAMPL as a center of excellence, with the latest manufacturing techniques and training programs. IAMPL furthers our common objective of enhancing high value-added manufacturing in India and will also contribute to the country’s growing aerospace and technology industry.”

Aviation Week

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Dec 2011 02:36

sweet and timely.. wow! looks like they are now in power play mode. last 5 overs.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Dec 2011 03:49

The contract for the MRCA aircraft is quite plain. Its to be awarded to a single party and there's no scope for a split order, especially at this stage.

Also, given the logistical complexities of operating a variety of aircraft, there is little advantage to be had by ordering both types, given how similar they are. Where most airforces operate about 3 types and are consolidating on a one or two types, the IAF operates 6 aircraft types which will increase to 8 by 2015, before eventually reducing.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Dec 2011 03:58

Leo.Davidson wrote:Isn't this good news

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/11/ ... dates.html

The advantage Rafale platform has over the EF is that it will be fully ready with all the features developed and integrated in time for the service entry into the IAF around 2015. EF is more like fully ready by 2018/2020.

Rafale program updates
©Dassault aviation - A. Hernoult

Here is a quick list of the main points discussed in the last Fox3 issues:

RBE-2 AESA
Performance evaluation passed

A2A detection/range exeed expectations

A2G and terrain following modes also tested

First production Rafale C delivered with an AESA in 2012

First production Rafale M delivered with an AESA in 2013

Qualification expected early 2013

First French Airforce squadron operational with the AESA in early 2014

Meteor
First flight envelope expension done in early 2011 (including carrier trials)

First batch of 200 Missiles ordered

Operational service expected in 2016
AM-39 Exocet block 2 mod 2

Integration on Rafale completed

Final operational evaluation in early 2012

Operational on French Navy Rafale in mid-2012

French Navy Pilot training with the missile has already started

Link 16 targeting from AEW aircrafts (E-2, ATL-2) is developed
DDM-NG (New Generation Missile Detector)
increase range and field of view / decrease false alerts

In flight testing in progress (2nd data gathering campaign completed in early 2011)
AASM

Extensively used in Libya by French Air Force and Navy Rafale (225 units fired)

success rate very close to 100%

GPS/INS/IIR variant operational since mid-2011

800 units of the 250kg type delivered (3400 ordered)

Range >50km for the 250kg type (57km demonstrated in Libya)

GPS/INS/Laser version

Qualification phase in 2012

Operational service entry in 2013

15km range with 90° of boresight release demonstrated against a 80km/h target with an acuracy of 1 meter

First firing trials of the 125 kg variant completed (80km range demonstrated)

1000kg version development expected rapidly

New guidance kit for antiship attack considered with datalink capability
Rover

Rover system fully operational on Rafale

Rover terminal fitted to the Rafale airframe (not the LDP) and thus also allows radar or FSO images to be transmitted to the FAC

Libya campaign

All missions were operated without any dedicated SEAD and EW support thanks to Spectra

Spectra Allowed accurate detection, location and attack of Libyan Air defenses

Spectra jammer allowed soft kills of the Libyan radar systems

GBU-12 used for dynamic targeting

AASM used against high value well-defended targets and SAM system (SA-3/SA-6)

Damocles pod used for laser targetting (GBU-12), identification and target GPS coordinates extraction (AASM)

Half of the Rafale M missions performed at night

Rafale considered as a key tool for ISTAR missions (Intelligence, Surveillance, Taget acquisition, Reconnaissance)

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Dec 2011 04:28

80km range on the 125-kg AASM variant!

Rafale Fox 3 N16

Future Development AASM

Sagem is looking at a variety of new developments to further expand the AASM family and augment the Rafale’s operational capabilities. Among the various options being considered, both heavier and lighter versions with larger or smaller wa- rheads and a new guidance kit for anti-ship attacks are being discussed. A firing trial with a 125-kg class bomb body has already been conducted, and a 80-km range has been demonstrated. The develop- ment of a very heavy AASM, with a 908 kg (2,000 lbs) warhead (for example a Mk 84 general purpose bomb body or a BLU-109 penetrator) could be launched very rapidly. In the not too distant future, a version with an anti-ship capability may appear: «we are seriously conside- ring fitting the AASM with a data- link which will allow moving targets to be engaged, explains General (Ret) Jean-Pierre Rayssac, Sagem Director of AASM Business Deve- lopment. This datalink would prove particularly useful against ships that can move at 30 knots and change position really rapidly.» With its adjustable attack angle, the AASM will prove ideal for the engagement of surface combatants because current naval air-defences, such as search and fire control radars, short-range surface-to-air missiles and close-in weapons systems are all optimised to primarily counter sea skimming anti-ship missiles. They are not universally capable of defeating a vertically diving target which may take advantage of the ship’s configuration and layout to hit with devastating military effects.

Capability that exceeds current PGMs!

Complex Scenario AASM Firing

The third test firing was, by far, the most impressive and the most challenging as it was completed against a moving target simulating a speeding car. «The scenario was extremely precise, explains a DGA Flight Test Engineer at Cazaux. A Rafale was circling a compound at medium altitude at a distance of 15 kilometres, unheard, out of view and well outside the range of anti-aircraft artillery and man-porta- ble air-defence systems. Suddenly, a car fled from the compound and the Rafale was asked to take it out. Without leaving its orbit, the omni- role fighter fired a Laser AASM 90 degrees off-axis, with laser illumina- tion provided by a DHY-307 laser designator on the ground simula- ting a deployed team of Special Forces. The calibrated target was speeding on a rail at 80 km/h. The target’s albedo was known as we wanted to assess the behaviour of the seeker and check its ability to perfectly track a very fast object. The test was entirely successful and the AASM impacted within one metre of the laser spot. With such accuracy, it would have totally wrecked a real car or a real armou- red vehicle.»
In 2012, the Laser AASM will enter qualification phase and the DGA engineers and weapons specialists will perform a further three firing trials before the new variant is cleared for use by both French Air Force and French Navy Rafales.

Interesting aircraft carrier operational titbit about the Rafale buddy-to-buddy tankers:

Rafale Fox3 N15

Extreme Range

A key advantage of the Rafale compared to the other French and foreign fighters is its very long range. «French Air Force Rafales initially flew with two 2,000-litre external fuel tanks under the wings on top of their MICA air-to-air missiles and of their air-to-surface ordnance, reveals the Armée de l’Air Rafale detachment com- mander. When the availability of tankers became an issue, a third 2,000-litre drop tank was added to the Rafale based in Solenzara, thus helping minimise the pressure on the Allied tanker force.» The Rafale then carried 6,000 litres of external fuel on top of the 4,700 kg of internal fuel for the single-seat Rafale C, and 4,400 kg for the two-seat Rafale B, giving an outs- tanding range and an extended time on station.
Endurance was a crucial para- meter for Rafales operating from the Charles de Gaulle too: «we typically flew missions lasting over two hours without tanker support, stresses the Commanding Officer of French Navy Flottille 12F. With tanker support, either from a Rafale configured for buddy-buddy tanking, a C-135FR, a KC-135R or from any other coalition tanker, we flew 4-hour long sorties with two refuellings. Our ‘playtime’ was excellent, with relatively short transits to and from Libya. In fact, out of 4 hours airborne, we remained 2 h 20 min on station, ready to strike any target of opportunity.» Usually, two of the ten Rafales onboard the carrier were configured as buddy-buddy tankers, each with an in-flight refuelling pod under the centreline pylon and two to four drop tanks under the wings. One of them was systematically launched prior to any recovery cycle, ready to give away fuel to any fighter which might have encountered difficul- ties when attempting to trap back onboard the carrier. Another one was ready to be catapulted away, should the situation have got worse.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 11 Dec 2011 05:37

Singha wrote:the stuff thats going into the emb145 is our growler pack.

well its a nice pack but similar to growler? nah.. its more like growler lite.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 11 Dec 2011 05:44

AASM is certainly not a very unique weapon. It only does essentially what a SDB does at a lower range. SDB can hit target over 100 km and can be used in air burst, loving target or bunker busting more. SDB 1 and 2 come at nearly one third the price of a AASM. JDAM-ER too can be used to hit targets over 50 km away. AASM makes little sense to buy when we will clearly buying huge volumes. PGMs will most likely be US made.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Dec 2011 06:14

I would like to bring this link to attention here now:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 617701.ece

Technology transfer

Raytheon was in talks with a number of Indian companies, they said, but declined to name them. Over time, Raytheon was open to the idea of transferring technology to the Indian companies and to manufacturing in India, as a means to cut costs.

The Indian Air Force is evaluating the options for its MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) programme. Raytheon feels that its missiles such as JSOW (Joint Standoff Weapon), Maverick, AMRAAM (Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile) and AIM-9X are capable of being integrated with any type of aircraft that the IAF may select for the programme. The Eurofighter and Rafale are the two in the race for the $10 billion MMRCA to supply about 125 aircraft.