Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 18 Jun 2013 19:04

PHOTOS: First IAF C-17 Arrives At Indian Base - LiveFist

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 21 Jun 2013 15:23

while the SAR operations are commendable,

Uttarakhand rescue operations are among army's largest ever

The IAF has deployed 18 choppers, including four Advanced Light Helicopters which are part of its aerobatic team Sarang, a Defence Ministry spokesperson said.

Ministry sources said so far only 18 choppers have been deployed as IAF pilots do not find it safe to land as soil has loosened up due to rains.

Due to this problem, the IAF has been able to deploy only its ALH Dhruv and other light helicopters

Can they not use smallish shipping container in the place of the jeep shown here to allow people to climb in while the Chopper hovers avoiding the landing predicament?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Jun 2013 15:49

unsecured people being shunted around in mid air is massively unsafe - for them and for the aircraft

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 21 Jun 2013 16:18

^^^
very true

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 21 Jun 2013 17:28

ranji wrote:Revisiting may help as SU-30 MKI's can be in production. As per Air Cmde Jasjit Singh, the MMRCA is Gripen - Mirage 2000 etc are correct weight - some 17 k kgs. Rafale is 24k kg. It is 900 kgs less than SU-30 MKI. I have seen arguments that Rafale is not Su-30 MKI class.

You are comparing the MTOW of Rafale to the loaded weight Specification of SU 30 MKI.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 22 Jun 2013 19:02

Can you elaborate?

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 22 Jun 2013 19:22

What an operation - C-130 lands at a small air strip, fills the bowser with aviation fuel. The bowser is then airlifted by Mi-26 helicopter

http://frontierindia.net/indian-air-for ... r-op-rahat

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jun 2013 20:08

in a very short time the the 130J has established itself as a really useful munna incl disaster surveillance and long haul ops to A&N.

we should get atleast 30 more of these badkats.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 22 Jun 2013 23:47

^^

wonder if that's true of the F 16 and F 18 too.?

Cheap and works, Walmart style.

No Harrods style Euro schmitt.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jun 2013 23:59

ranji wrote:What an operation - C-130 lands at a small air strip, fills the bowser with aviation fuel. The bowser is then airlifted by Mi-26 helicopter

http://frontierindia.net/indian-air-for ... r-op-rahat

Bowser had been airlifted from Sarsawa by Mi-26 and placed at Dharasu; it was subsequently filled with fuel brought in on C-130J.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jun 2013 00:00

C 130 did not come cheap

now whether it was really expensive is a diff question

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jun 2013 00:16

Surya wrote:C 130 did not come cheap

now whether it was really expensive is a diff question

India bought them (C-130J-30) specifically for special operations, so they are bound to be expensive.

Here is a general comparison. I do not think this takes into account ALL of the SpOp gizmos the Indian planes would have, but should provide a decent picture:

General Characteristics Primary Function:
Global airlift
Contractor:
Lockheed-Martin Aeronautics Company
Power Plant:
C-130E: Four Allison T56-A-7 turboprops; 4,200 prop shaft horsepower
C-130H: Four Allison T56-A-15 turboprops; 4,591prop shaft horsepower
C-130J: Four Rolls-Royce AE 2100D3 turboprops; 4,700 horsepower
Length:
C-130E/H/J: 97 feet, 9 inches (29.3 meters)
C-130J-30: 112 feet, 9 inches (34.69 meters)
Height: 38 feet, 10 inches (11. 9 meters)
Wingspan: 132 feet, 7 inches (39.7 meters)
Cargo Compartment:
C-130E/H/J: length, 40 feet (12.31 meters); width, 119 inches (3.Remove 12 meters); height, 9 feet (2.74 meters). Rear ramp: length, 123 inches (3.12 meters); width, 119 inches (3.02 meters)
C-130J-30: length, 55 feet (16.9 meters); width, 119 inches (3.12 meters); height, 9 feet (2.74 meters). Rear ramp: length, 123 inches (3.12 meters); width, 119 inches (3.02 meters)
Speed:
C-130E: 345 mph/300 ktas (Mach 0.49) at 20,000 feet (6,060 meters)
C-130H: 366 mph/318 ktas (Mach 0.52) at 20,000 feet (6,060 meters)
C-130J: 417 mph/362 ktas (Mach 0.59) at 22,000 feet (6,706 meters)
C-130J-30: 410 mph/356 ktas (Mach 0.58) at 22,000 feet (6,706 meters)
Ceiling:
C-130J: 28,000 feet (8,615 meters) with 42,000 pounds (19,090 kilograms) payload
C-130J-30: 26,000 feet (8,000 meters) with 44,500 pounds (20,227 kilograms) payload.
C-130H: 23,000 feet (7,077 meters) with 42,000 pounds (19,090 kilograms) payload.
C-130E: 19,000 feet (5,846 meters) with 42,000 pounds (19,090 kilograms) payload
Maximum Takeoff Weight:
C-130E/H/J: 155,000 pounds (69,750 kilograms)
C-130J-30: 164,000 pounds (74,393 kilograms)
Maximum Allowable Payload:
C-130E, 42,000 pounds (19,090 kilograms)
C-130H, 42,000 pounds (19,090 kilograms)
C-130J, 42,000 pounds (19,090 kilograms)
C-130J-30, 44,000 (19,958 kilograms)
Maximum Normal Payload:
C-130E, 36,500 pounds (16,590 kilograms)
C-130H, 36,500 pounds (16,590 kilograms)
C-130J, 34,000 pounds (15,422 kilograms)
C-130J-30, 36,000 pounds (16,329 kilograms)
Range at Maximum Normal Payload:
C-130E, 1,150 miles (1,000 nautical miles)
C-130H, 1,208 miles (1,050 nautical miles)
C-130J, 2,071 miles (1,800 nautical miles)
C-130J-30, 1,956 miles (1,700 nautical miles)
Range with 35,000 pounds of Payload:
C-130E, 1,438 miles (1,250 nautical miles)
C-130H, 1,496 miles (1,300 nautical miles)
C-130J, 1,841 miles (1,600 nautical miles)
C-130J-30, 2,417 miles (2,100 nautical miles)
Maximum Load:
C-130E/H/J: 6 pallets or 74 litters or 16 CDS bundles or 92 combat troops or 64 paratroopers, or a combination of any of these up to the cargo compartment capacity or maximum allowable weight.
C-130J-30: 8 pallets or 97 litters or 24 CDS bundles or 128 combat troops or 92 paratroopers, or a combination of any of these up to the cargo compartment capacity or maximum allowable weight.
Crew:
C-130E/H: Five (two pilots, navigator, flight engineer and loadmaster)
C-130J/J-30: Three (two pilots and loadmaster)
Aeromedical Evacuation Role:
A basic crew of five (two flight nurses and three medical technicians) is added for aeromedical evacuation missions. Medical crew may be decreased or increased as required by the needs of patients.
Unit Cost:
C-130E, $11.9, C-130H, $30.1, C-130J, $48.5 (FY 1998 constant dollars in millions)
Date Deployed:
C-130A, Dec 1956; C-130B, May 1959; C-130E, Aug 1962; C-130H, Jun 1974; C-130J, Feb 1999
Inventory:
Active force, 145; Air National Guard, 181; Air Force Reserve, 102

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 23 Jun 2013 02:38

Some more details.

Uttarakhand: big and unusual role for the Air Force's C-130J

Dharasu/Hindon Air Base: In a very innovative, yet daring move, the Indian Air Force (IAF) today virtually established an aviation fuel supply bridge at Dharasu in Uttarkashi to give greater impetus to rescue operations that have been severely restricted due to non-availability of aviation fuel in the upper reaches of Uttarakhand.

With the road connectivity to Uttarkashi completely broken down, bad weather adversely affecting launch of flying operations from Jolly Grant airfield in Dehradun and the renewed threat of rains - likely to hit the state on June 24 - an out-of-the-box solution seemed to be the only option to sustain rescue operations.

Going by the lay of the land, it was decided to examine the possibility of using the small air strip at Dharasu to establish a forward launch base for rescue operations. However, the challenges were many, including the weather. The length of the air strip is only 1,300 metres and the mountainous terrain posed a great danger to the aircraft making an approach for landing in the prevalent inclement weather conditions.

Moreover, there was no infrastructure to support flying operations of a sophisticated aircraft like the C-130J at Dharasu. But with a true professional approach and calculated risk management, a decision was taken to go ahead with the idea.

After a quick SWOT analysis of the terrain, weather and capability of the aircraft and aircrew, the C-130J was launched from the Hindon Air Base. The objective was achieved when the aircraft, despite the inclement weather, made its first historic landing at Dharasu early in the morning today.

In a first of its kind, the aircraft, after landing, offloaded 8,000 litres of fuel into an empty bowser - airlifted the previous day from Sarsawa by the heavy-lift Mi-26 helicopter - which further put life into the choppers which were starved of fuel till then.

With the availability of fuel at Dharasu, rescue operations picked up pace and, within no time, commenced non-stop flights, establishing a firm launch base by evening.

The C-130J crew was given a new task of airlifting pilgrims from Dharasu to Hindon on its return trip. To start with, 35 stranded pilgrims, some of them needing immediate medical assistance, were put on board and brought to the air base near Ghaziabad, a suburb of Delhi.

Having achieved the first objective, the Air Force quickly embarked upon a mission to establish a virtual fuel supply bridge and use the return trips to rescue the stranded pilgrims into safer locations. The second trip offloaded 8,000 kgs of fuel at Dharasu and picked up 101 passengers (80 adults and 21children, including two who were brought on stretcher) and brought them back to Hindon. Having transferred the required fuel at Dharasu, the third trip of the day was used to airlift the medical team of the Air Force to provide immediate assistance to the needy passengers awaiting airlift at Dharasu itself. This writer and a cameraperson colleague was on the third flight.

Having paved the way for fixed-wing aircraft operation from Dharasu, the Air Force quickly pressed its An-32 into action. The An-32s carried Disaster Communication Equipment Vehicles of the Air Force, some more fuel in Barrels, Sudan pumps for refueling the helicopters and bridging equipment of the Border Roads Organisation or BRO. By evening, a firm base had been established which will now see some very hectic flying in the days to come, including providing assistance to BRO to airlift some of its heavy road repair and construction machinery in rehabilitation work.

June 22, 2013 will remain a significant milestone in the Indian Air Force's history.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 23 Jun 2013 05:25

^^^ I don't understand the fuss. Why was the IAF so hesitant to use the C130s? Hell, the C-130 have even managed to land on a carrier - a proper landing strip would be a luxury. Low visibility / poor weather etc are no longer credibly excuses against military air operations especially with modern terrain mapping and avoidance systems. The USSOC has pathfinder units who set up landing zones and evaluate land strips in farms rural roads for C-130 resupply, similar Indian units should have been deployed. Sometimes the only light available for C130 pilots is a row of flares that they have to spot and orient their aircraft to make an landing approach before the flares burn out through cloud cover, rain etc behind enemy lines.

The only thing surprising is that it took the IAF 5 days to figure out that there was a perfectly good run way they could use for airlift! They should know exactly what aviation facilities are available in every corner of the country and what assets can operate off them.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jun 2013 06:13

here we go

another tiresome rant

US did it blah blah blah

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jun 2013 07:08

the cargo version of the 130-30 we got should be a good deal cheaper. it will delete the star safire eo system and a lot of nav/comms gear stuffed in for SF version. but will retain the blind weather flying and low level nav capability most likely - or if not we can pay extra to retain as its needed in our backyard.

the Mi26 is on its last legs for sure. 3 units in inventory per Negi and one elderly bird makes it to the job.

we got to think of more chinooks or the new model of CH53 that is nearing IOC in 2014(lead buyer being us marines). not at all cheap. but you need people who show up to do work, rather than read marx and tolstoy in the hangar.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 23 Jun 2013 08:07

^^^ @Marx ...

That was a bloody brilliant line Singhaji

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jun 2013 08:38

the cargo version of the 130-30 we got should be a good deal cheaper.

What cargo version? The first six were part of the order and the next six were the options. They all should be the same - meant for SpOps. No?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jun 2013 08:50

He means we need to get more of the basic versions albeit with bad weather flying gizmos

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Jun 2013 09:29

Brando wrote:...I don't understand the fuss. Why was the IAF so hesitant to use the C130s? Hell, the C-130 have even managed to land on a carrier - a proper landing strip would be a luxury. Low visibility / poor weather etc are no longer credibly excuses against military air operations especially with modern terrain mapping and avoidance systems....

Arre bhai, there would be no worries about landing in treacherous terrain even in bad weather but there is always a pause to consider something happening to the plane on the ground--engine, tires, anything. This was a small strip with no ground facilities at all for the C130s and that always needs some deliberation, even in a war situation. The smallest mishap could have rendered the airfield useless for further relief operations. A decision was made to go ahead in spite of this after due calculation and the details of the situation became apparent. Standard operating procedure I'm sure.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 23 Jun 2013 09:54

Bharatiya Thal Sena has established heli-bridges, some are just bank-to-bank transfers!

All senior officers, ranks and files are leading by example.

You will see senior commissioned officers wading thru mud and grime.

At muddy slippery place Jawans have removed shoes, working barefoot to get better grip.

vina · Post by **vina** » 23 Jun 2013 13:53

The helicopters of the IAF and Army, seem to have done a splendid job , with some highly skilled flying many of them pulling off breathtaking stuff. All that flying at Siachen and other places routinely must have surely helped.

Nice to see the ALH Dhruv pull it's weight in the ops. We absolutely need to get a medium lift heli (Mi-17 replacement) and the Light heli done and into service ASAP. HAL needs to get cracking on it with all speed (get private investors in to fund it if need be , if BahBooze cant get the testicular fortitude to risk capital and necks on such projects) , get the helis certified for civilian use and go global with those products.

HAL helicopter division should be spun off and a laser focused company on that has to be set up. It surely has the legs/wings to go to great heights.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 23 Jun 2013 14:35

Its the scale of rescue ops by choppers that is unprecedented in India, it was possible partly because those places were near forward areas, however if something happens far away from these forward areas wonder how many choppers would be made available and the sorties they would be able to sustain.

there are around 500 smallish airstrips across the country, the C-17s should be able to ferry the Dhruv, Mi-17 or the Chinook anywhere, added convenience would be folding rotors

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jun 2013 20:45

I don't think there is any corner in India that is so far away that a helo can't reach it.
The army can go into any area and establish helipads there in some sort of clearing, and a temporary base of heliborne ops.

But then now is the time to plan ahead and create plans for temporary helo bases in all areas in the country.

GOI and state governments have made a huge hulla over the last few years about disaster management, lots of money sunk in babooze videsh junkets to "study" disaster management in cancun, mexico and other 'disaster prone' areas. (Our state government babooze are going to exotic places and flesh hotspots these days on junkets, I understand).

Disaster can strike any part of the country, but for the disaster management skills, and the wherewithal of the armed forces, these things are unmanageable. The civil babooze don't have the means, manpower and the will to do much. So they don't plan anything exotic.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 23 Jun 2013 21:53

The landing of the C-130 could be a major new link in relief ops. Here's the Dharasu airstrip from google maps. Town: Chinyali, a few miles south of Dharasu. Zoom out a bit, air strip shows up just north west of Chinyali. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Chinyali+ ... India&z=16

As the ~~crow~~ helicopter flies the airstrip is within 15 miles of Uttarkashi, and within 50 miles of both Kedarnath (east of) and Rudraprayag (south east of Chinyali)- probably among the hardest hit areas around. If there are enough helicopters to ferry people from, and supplies to, these disaster areas, the C-130s can fly them out easily to Dehradun/Chandigarh/Dehli. Did wonder about why it took this long to use this airstrip for a C130 (maybe to check out the runway?), but I'll say that it takes a high level of testicular fortitude to land, for the first time (!) with 8000 liters of aviation fuel in cargo. I say, fly/transport all choppers to this area....even the Sarang choppers:)

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Jun 2013 23:30

Indian C-130 are the stretched ones with all the possible bells & whistles. Note the EO equipment here that are better than the Israeli ones on IN Dorniers & Mi-35 http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sTdyqiGwFKQ/U ... 796503.jpg

The ball faces inward while landing/takeoff to avoid FOD hitting the window/mirror.

Only some communication gear was deleted, because of US regulations. Gear that IAF never wanted in the first place.

@SriKumar - there was an earthquake at Uttarkashi in 1991, with the epicenter near the airport. The airfield has hillsides on one shoulder. It is common for boulders to roll down during rains. It needed to be checked for integrity before aircraft could land.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 24 Jun 2013 05:15

tsarkar wrote:Note the EO equipment here that are better than the Israeli ones on IN Dorniers & Mi-35 http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sTdyqiGwFKQ/U ... 796503.jpg

That airplane looks like it has done regular and extensive work since the IAF got it, including long distance work, judging from what looks like fuel spray from drogue chutes on the pilot's perspex.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Jun 2013 06:41

Surely the bird will need FLIR to land and take off if they are doing it in zero visibility. I understand that the pilots probably have NVG for night ops.

Singha ji,
Priceless comment - "Read tolstoy and marx in the hanger". Very incisive and sharp!
More and more US origin equipment, is arriving on time as contracted - no bullshit from the supplier, and is proving its worth. But it is expensive like hell!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2013 07:51

I saw that airstrip on India tv last night. it is not um sized for c130 sized planes...more like do228 and at max an32 typeish runway.wingco tejbir singh (remember he was and is the sqdn commander from induction) was saying the airstrip is not fit for heavies but they took a calculated risk and managed it, maybe coming in on light fuel and submax payload.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jun 2013 11:22

^^^They are now using 5-6 AN-32 from the airstrip of inward and outward movement of equipment/people.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2013 11:31

can the lone C17 we have make it in and out of dehra dun?
could move a lot of supplies in one go and being self reversing unlike the IL76 could use cramped aprons.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 24 Jun 2013 11:34

So SDRE's can evacuate 30,000 civilians in bad weather in 5(approx) days.So how much does it take to insert trained men into such terrain? So now we know how strong IAF/IA is ? Dragon should be hearing it now?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2013 11:37

I guess they will step up creation of permanent emergency concreted helipads all over the place with an eye to future. some of the dhruvs and alouetteIII were making risky landings in rock strewn terrain.
this will permit more efficient relief ops in future calamity if it happens.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 24 Jun 2013 14:40

MiG-29 crashes in Khambalia, pilot safe. Thank God

(Press Release | Unedited)

One MiG–29 aircraft of IAF crashed near South of Khambalia, Gujrat on 24 Jun 2013 at about 1330 h. The aircraft was airborne from Jamnagar airbase on a routine flying training sortie. The pilot ejected safely.A Court of Inquiry has been ordered to investigate into the accident.

Via Tarmak FB Page

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 24 Jun 2013 17:15

Is there a "number of flying hours per crash" document available for each of the aircraft types that are flying out there right now?

I wanted to compare Mig 21 29 with the Mirages and the Sukhois

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jun 2013 18:12

Lilo wrote:Some more details.

Uttarakhand: big and unusual role for the Air Force's C-130J

]

But does it have the capability to refuel other aircraft in mid air? Now that is a capability that we need today.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2013 18:31

only some of the SOAR MC-130 do that...you can see pics of it refueling blackhawk and ch53 helis....

unless we have a JSOC setup with dedicated pave-hawk type helis why do we need that...?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jun 2013 18:37

Having 30 odd mix of CH-53 and CH-47 during this period would have really helped the matter.

I still remember seeing pics of CH-47 landing on a narrow mountain ridge with only the hind tyres touching the surface and ramp door open to allow exit directly on the ridge. This would have helped to evacuate many from higher reaches where other choppers are not able to land and people are being helped to lower areas through steep gradient.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jun 2013 20:32

Singha wrote:only some of the SOAR MC-130 do that...you can see pics of it refueling blackhawk and ch53 helis....

unless we have a JSOC setup with dedicated pave-hawk type helis why do we need that...?

Aside from MC-130 we do have 'vanilla' C-130 versions doing that as well. If our Su-30s can do it, then this bird should be able to do it as well. This way we mitigate the few numbers of IL-78s that are going around.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2013 20:33

for its size the ch53 is fast and nimble at low level as this video shows http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lknJh-m4SMg