Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 19 Nov 2014 21:24

West Ukraine is the no-man's land between EU and Russia, and the question is how much the US wants to raise the stakes to push eastwards to provoke russia into a war. Russia is going to have to open other fronts of war against the US to keep them busy. The warmongering cretins in the US state dept. must have their brains up their nether end if they think this so-called strategy is going help then gain anything.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 19 Nov 2014 22:11

RSoami wrote:There is nothing such as `disqualified to be NATO member`. IMHO thats not how things work. NATO is US military in disguise with token representation by the Peons. One can easily change the language or in spite of it accomodate Ukraine in the western alliance.

No, purely from a definition and principles perspective, there is. Countries with questionable borders / border disputes aren't given membership*. Putin used that to the hilt... both in the case of Georgia and Ukraine.

* - However, like any rule has an exception, the borderline case is Turkey. NATO member but has a disputed border.

So, yes, technically US can bring in Ukraine to the fold. But after all this sh!t, the US apparently has likely learnt its lessons.

Thou shalt not fight near the border region of a far-off rival.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 19 Nov 2014 22:11

From NW:

Russia-Ukraine: Russia has called for "a 100% guarantee that no-one would think about Ukraine joining NATO," President Vladimir Putin's spokesman told the BBC.

Dmitri Peskov said that NATO's gradual approach towards Russia's borders had made Moscow "nervous".

Comment: The Russian statement is not new, but it is refreshing for its candor and clarity. NATO could no more defend Ukraine than it can defend the Baltic members of NATO, short of a general war in Europe.

srin · Post by **srin** » 19 Nov 2014 23:46

Admission of a member to NATO requires unanimous consent. Most of the rich European countries in NATO got in because individually they were too small to counter Soviet forces. And they were quite weak in the immediate aftermath of WW2.

Now that they are quite rich and lazy and are more focussed on when to go strike, they are really afraid of the collective defense clause. Their objective is to fund the NATO bureaucracy and throw in some token troops but really to fight to the last American marine (or the last ukrainian).

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Nov 2014 14:18

Crimea was not easy, but it was critical. Without the Sevastopol supply, Syria would have fallen to "moderate" Syrian forces. Putin gets the western game, and is absolutely right about it being not in the interest of the general western population.
PS I saw a BBC show which made me understand why Putin=Hitler is being bandied about.
Both are leaders of great nations screwed over by the Atlantic powers and lead the resurgence of their nations, both were harmful to the Atlantic powers. Both strongly supported by the public.
The depths these guys plunge to defame.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 20 Nov 2014 19:52

Putin Would Risk Everything In A War With Ukraine
Martin van Creveld | Nov 18th 2014

-OpEd- worldcrunch.com

BERLIN — As German military theorist Carl von Clausewitz once wrote, the aggressor is always peace-loving. He wants to take over our land, our people, our resources without firing a single shot. By this same logic, the defender is always the aggressor.

This truth has seldom been better illustrated than by events in eastern Ukraine. With the recent separatist victory in the rogue elections, the situation only worsened. The possibility of war between the self-proclaimed "Donetsk People's Republic" and Kiev becomes ever more likely with each passing day.

What would that war look like? If animosities escalate and the Russian army assumes a greater role, the outcome is clear: Ukrainian forces are no match for the Russian steamroller. Russia has a six-to-one advantage in terms of the number of active troops. The disproportion is even greater with regard to weapons and equipment, particularly because many of the Ukrainian weapons were Soviet-produced and date back to the Cold War era. Any NATO or EU attempt to lend military support would be rendered more difficult by the fact that they don't use the same weapons. So joint operations could be a problem.

Should it come to the worst, NATO and the EU have only one way to prevent Russia's annexation of the Donetsk People's Republic. When it comes to conventional military technology, troop numbers and economic power, Russia can't hold a candle to NATO and the EU. But Putin's fighting forces do have some advantages over their potential enemies.

First of all, in terms of command structure, logistics, weapons systems, equipment, communication, training and military doctrine, the Russian forces are a single unit — as opposed to the heterogeneous mix of NATO and EU forces. Just how big a role this advantage would play is hard to assess, but it should be enough to minimize the West's quantitative superiority.

Russian soldiers parading in Moscow — Photo: Vitaly V. Kuzmin

Secondly, the epicenter of the conflict is extremely far from EU borders and even farther from the real NATO and EU power centers in the West. Crimea, formerly Ukraine's most important link to the sea, is now squarely in Russian hands and can't be used as a support base. Under such conditions, the thought of a larger-scale EU or NATO ground operation is absurd. If need be, they could send some trainers and small teams to support Ukrainian forces symbolically.

Thirdly, and most importantly, NATO and the EU just don't have the will to fight. At best, they could consider airstrikes. Drones are already being used in Ukraine for espionage and surveillance purposes. But Russia is not Afghanistan in 2001, Iraq in 2003, or Libya in 2011. None of those countries had an air force. Russia will answer any NATO air attacks in support of Ukraine with its own. What's more, all experience up to now has demonstrated that air attacks alone are not enough to be the decisive factor in such a conflict.

War's theoretical outcome

Putin's air force can't just fight back in the war zone, but it can also threaten every NATO and EU country that participates in an operation to support Ukraine. Already, Russian fighter planes — including some that could be equipped with nuclear warheads — regularly fly over the Baltic States. This apparently serves to intimidate them. Other planes have been sighted in the West over the North Sea and the Atlantic, and to the south over the Black Sea. The Baltic States, Finland and Sweden are trembling. This is a powder keg situation. Unauthorized dealings by a local commander or even just a misunderstanding could at any time trigger an explosion.

If a full-on war broke out, it would at first be limited to eastern Ukraine. Russian units would help the separatists, as news reports say they have already been doing for months. Then stronger forces with air cover would take headquarters, bridges, communication centers and more in order to break Kiev's resistance. These operations would be accompanied by an intense cyber war on the enemy's communications in order to paralyze them.

If these operations were not to lead to swift success, they could be extended westward toward Kiev until most of the country is stricken with fighting, albeit less intense. As Putin is reported to have said, his forces are strong enough to occupy all of Ukraine, or at least its major cities, in a matter of weeks. Such an occupation is possible but unlikely because, as Putin certainly knows, it would lead to years of war similar to the Russian wars in Afghanistan and Chechnya, but on a much larger scale. If he were to lose the war, it could mean the dissolution of the Russian Republic.

In the unlikely event of involvement by NATO or EU forces, there would no doubt be occasional cases of Russian planes flying in NATO/EU air space. But because it could only be stopped with nuclear weapons, the chances of a large-scale Russian invasion of NATO's eastern flank remains highly improbable.

More than 100 years ago, Chancellor of the German Empire Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg spoke of the "iron dice of fate" in the context of tensions between the great powers. There are certainly people, primarily in the Kremlin and Donetsk, whose hands are itching to get at the dice. The result would almost certainly mean disaster for the Donetsk People's Republic, Ukraine and the greater part of Eastern Europe.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2014 20:10

This Martin Van Creveld is warmonger chatteratti. He was very shrill in the Cold War era fantasizing an Armageddon with FSU.

The 'iron dice of fate' is in US hands and they are itching to cast it.

The 1765 wars in Central Europe saw emergence of three powers: Prussia, Russia and Austria. The tussle is an extension of that question.

A war will deplete Russian population further. So Putin will wage a "no-war" war.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 20 Nov 2014 20:28

The writer is merely trying to make Putin ominous. Don't know about the man but most likely meant for internal consumption in urop.

But ramana ji,

to me it looks like US has already achieved its aims completely. They had to create a clutch of Pakistans in the Black sea and they have. Most of the Nato and Major Non-Nato Allies are merely bases for the US expeditionary forces and Chocolate soldier would be the most visionary leader of the rump Ukraine - The man who got the west Ukrainians a valued friendship with the west. Jinnah used to be very proud of the strategic location of Pakistan, too. He was convinced that that is all he needed to make Pakistan work.

It must be something in the nature of peoples, that they find succor in the idea of making themselves attractive for the powerful groups.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2014 20:34

ravi_g, We are mere observers and not players.
A small duchy that expanded to become a Continental power won't vanish with pin pricks on its borders.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 20 Nov 2014 23:56

habal wrote:secondly the present day Russia, in my opinion, seems to be a very publicity conscious nation. They abhor negative publicity and that also limits their pro-activeness. It always wants to be seen that it is doing what is right

Sounds more like India, actually.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 21 Nov 2014 00:11

RSoami wrote:Dont agreee that Putin has made a mistake. Perhaps the mistake that he did make was that he didnt take over Kharkiv, Mariupol and Odessa in August. And you cant be sure that the fire-eaters in Washington wouldnt have started arming Ukbapzis then.

Putin currently has Crimea and the industrial regions of the east. He also has the gas pipeline and a ruined Ukrainian economy. So there is no need for him to feed the west Ukrainians as of now. $ 17 + 7 + many more billions will have to be poured by the west in Ukraine if they want any credibility and support in Ukraine. A major chunk of this money will go to Russia as gas payments.

What if Putin had taken over all of Ukraine.
The west would have almost certainly started arming the Ukbapzis to wage insurgency against the Russians like in Afghanistan.
All sanctions would have been in place against Russia.
No gas payments from Ukraine. In fact Russia would have had to feed the Ukrainians after the Oligarchs had run to London with all wealth. As of now, its more of the western economic warfare turned on its head where the west has to spend at least 50 billion dollars just to keep their clowns Yatseneuk and Poroshenko in power, a share of which goes to Russia.

Not to nitpick, but Russia didn't invade Donbass and all those things ended up happening anyway (or will in the next several weeks).

Russia suffered all the consequences of invading Ukraine, plus some additional ones like all those dead "volunteer" troops, without actually gaining anything. It's like your wife divorcing you for cheating when you didn't even get to have the affair!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Nov 2014 10:02

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/n ... ian-rebels
Russia warns US not to arm Ukrainian forces against pro-Russian rebels

Moscow hits back at US official’s suggestion as vice-president Joe Biden arrives in Ukrainian capital Kiev for talks
•Nearly 1,000 killed during Ukraine ceasefire, says UN

Reuters
theguardian.com, Thursday 20 November 2014

Russia has warned the United States against supplying arms to Ukrainian forces fighting pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, hours before US vice-president Joe Biden was due to arrive in Kiev on Thursday.

Ukraine accused Vladimir Putin of treating its territory like a “playing field“, trying to unleash a full-scale war that would pose a broader threat to Nato countries.

Russian foreign ministry spokesman Alexander Lukashevich said in Moscow that a US official’s suggestion Washington should consider sending arms to Ukraine, where pro-Russian rebels have been fighting government forces since April, sent a “very serious signal“.

Lukashevich cautioned against “a major change in policy of the (US) administration in regard to the conflict” in Ukraine.

“That (would be) a direct violation of agreements reached, including (agreements reached) with the participation of the United States,” he said.

The United States backs Kiev in its struggle against the pro-Russian separatists in two eastern regions and has imposed sanctions on Russia over its policies.

In Washington, State Department spokesman Jeffrey Rathke said the United States is “continuing to assess how best to support Ukraine” and “nothing is off the table” including lethal aid. “I think if we’re talking about destabilization, we have to start with Russia’s actions and the separatists that are backed by Russia,” Rathke added.

Moscow supports the separatists but denies it is backing the rebels with arms and troops in a conflict which the United Nations says has killed more than 4,300 since mid-April.

The UN said the death rate in the conflict had grown in the past eight weeks despite a ceasefire underpinned by the Minsk Accord, signed on September 5 by Russia, Ukraine and rebels from the Ukrainian separatist regions of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe’s envoy to a Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, cited reports of new military buildup. “The outlook is still bleak,” she said.

Barack Obama’s choice to fill the number two spot at the State Department, Anthony Blinken, told a congressional hearing on Wednesday:

“I believe that, given the serious Russian violations of the agreement that they signed...that one thing that could hopefully get them to think twice and deter them from further action is strengthening the capacity of the Ukrainian forces, including with defensive lethal equipment.“

Blinken said he was sure provision of lethal assistance would come up for discussion during Biden’s visit to Kiev.

Ukrainian prime minister Arseny Yatseniuk said the west and Ukraine had a common interest in preventing a large-scale war.

“Putin’s actions are a threat to everyone, the global order, global peace, a direct threat to the EU and Nato member countries,” he told a news conference.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 21 Nov 2014 10:13

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/n ... ian-rebels

In Washington, State Department spokesman Jeffrey Rathke said the United States is “continuing to assess how best to support Ukraine” and “nothing is off the table” including lethal aid. “I think if we’re talking about destabilization, we have to start with Russia’s actions and the separatists that are backed by Russia,” Rathke added.

Russians getting taught some Root-Cause-Analysis

.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Nov 2014 10:28

Russia-China Gas Accord to Pressure LNG in Canada, Australia

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 21 Nov 2014 11:37

Y. Kanan wrote: It's like your wife divorcing you for cheating when you didn't even get to have the affair!

Well, you can always get a new one, mate. That would be Russia's thinking. I don't think they want the E part of Ukraine too. However, they don't want NATO in.

Its like this:
a. I like you as long as you listen to me. And try to bully you.
b. You have trouble with my bullying as you have a split personality. So, you want to move out of the reln but also want the reln because you are 'used' to it. However since you have a split personality, you also move to the extreme end of both poles -- purely out of concern and strategic depth?
c. You have also been found moving to my [I's] rival both economically (EU) and militarily (US) (and conjoining of both ways - a EU agreement and making noises about moving towards NATO) . The mil rival (US) was someone who actually separated me from you. Else, you were the apple of my eye [all revolutions and most important things for Russia started from Kyiv, lets remember]. The eco rival is someone who I want to have a reln with and (but also) keep at arms length too as my eco rivals (EU) are intricately linked with my mil rival (through NATO) but also in the earnest stage to get eco coupled too [TTIP].
d. You are at an advanced stage (of discussions, that is). I force you *from* jumping into bed with my eco rival. I force you to come to my place instead and give you a 'deal' (and the deal is reasonably fair, mind you. Most stuff that you sell are mainly bought by me). You accept it happily and go back and make an announcement.
e. the mil rival gets angry and thinks its payback time. Also moots the eco rival to make noises and also uses a potty mouth (Nu de land) to try and make calls reg regime change and drum up popular support from the other bi-polar end... and you flip to the other pole.
f. you are confused and want to ensure that you have hope. Worried abt me but also don't want to use force though I ask you to do it. You lose critical time and I have to bail you out.
g. Mil rival moves in and the great game happens.

Well, I have to move to take care of my strategic interests (and depth?). The mil rival is about 1000s of miles away but wants to come closer with my ex [you] while you have a bipolar disorder and move from one extreme to another and I am still unsure as to what you want [mainly because you have a bipolar disorder and they are assured self-interests both for you and me in your territory. To put it bluntly].

* As you will have realized by now: You and I aren't you or I. You = Ukraine, I = Russia.

Last point: Russia prefers the bi-pole which likes them and doesn't like the other pole (which flips and hates them). But doesn't mind putting up with it... and only asks for an access to this bi-pole and allow them to have a decision in the going-on's too. I am not so sure the mil rival prefers that bi-pole at all... unless it can be controlled by the other bi-pole. And that is cause for concern for ALL of us.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 21 Nov 2014 12:44

Ukraine is a white elephant.
It needed bailout of $15 billion when there was no war and eastern regions were still part of it. It will need at least $50 billion in the next couple of years to sustain itself. If west wants to pick up this liability then let them. Russia has nothing to lose and can wait forever. The only thing that they oppose is NATO coming into Ukraine.
And Russia has plenty of time till that comes anywhere close to reality. Till that time it can share in the biggest transfer of wealth from west to east by selling gas to Ukraine at `reasonable` rates.

habal · Post by **habal** » 21 Nov 2014 12:46

RSoami wrote:France might have to pay heavy penalties if it does not deliver the Mistrals. Russian sources say they will make a declaration regarding compensation and penalties by the end of the month.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29060398
The decision to suspend delivery of a Mistral naval assault ship to Russia risks costing France at least 1bn euros (£800m), officials say.

http://www.janes.com/article/43859/russ ... stral-halt
"Moreover, the Russian party has the right to enforce, via court proceedings, imposition of extra fines on DCNS and refunding of its expenses on materials and other costs associated with transportation to and construction in France of two stern components for the LHDs Vladivostok and Sevastopol . Considering those penal sanctions and refunding of expenses, the Russian party may obtain, in case of a positive court ruling, another EUR1.8 billion," he added.

one unseen angle ..

the French are waiting till January for the Yukos shareholders to seize it to pay for the 50 billion $ settlement. That is why the Russians are so nervous.
And then it can be sold off to the highest bidder.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 21 Nov 2014 13:03

the French are waiting till January for the Yukos shareholders to seize it to pay for the 50 billion $ settlement. That is why the Russians are so nervous.
And then it can be sold off to the highest bidder.

Dunno about the legal issues but it is more likely that the penalties and compensation will be decided in a french or swiss court. There is a contractual obligation on part of the french written down. The Yukos ruling is unlikely to affect this issue.

Also I think the sterns of the mistrals were built in Petersberg.
http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/737917
Most of the money has also been paid.
If the French do try to wriggle out of this contract somehow, they will get very bad name. Russian stern, Russian money and no delivery.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Nov 2014 14:07

On Yukos part AFAIK they have decided to challenge Hague court decision

WRT to Mistral deal more than Money its French Reputation as Independent Military supplier is at stake get , Monetary Loss is much smaller compared to its Reputation Loss in the Business.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 21 Nov 2014 14:37

Quite. This is a qn that I track even otherwise. Funny... but we all know one thing. Apart from the US, the other freak in the NATO who can act independently is France?

So, who knows? I still think they will do it sometime. But I also anticipate a short sharp rebel vs Ukr forces fight again. Which means no quick delivery anytime soon. But it does look like the US is sort of aware of the fact that France has to do what it has to do. French unions, jobs etc etc. Who compensates?

What does Deans think?

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 21 Nov 2014 14:57

First of all, I want to say that I am not a fan of the western/US approach, actions, and attitude towards Russia and the local geo-politics. I think that they have shot themselves in the foot. Now aside from saying that, I still think that Putin made a huge mistake by seizing Crimea with force. If he was patient, he could have gotten Crimea without force and for nothing. He and Russia were well in their rights to demand the payment of the gas bill. He could have used the dire economic consequences to negotiate a 99 year lease with a 99 year renewal option combined with low amount of lease payments. He could have avoided the need of taking force and the need to rehabilitate the people of Crimea and not only that pre-empt NATO from making any moves. NATO wouldn't be been involved in the picture. Only EU and with time going by, it would have been made clear to the western Ukrainians that EU was not the savior as they thought it would be. They would have turned back towards to Russia once again and Putin would have greater clout and have Kiev eating out of his hands.

Now he faces the prospect of a hostile neighbor right on his border and that with time, Ukraine could morph into an powerful neighbor once it gets its house in order. That is not a good strategic move at all. He just lost his buffer state and an ally to boot. He only has eastern Ukraine to show for it and it may not an ally of Russia for long because Putin can't deliver what he promised, economic benefits because in order to deliver those promised economic benefits, he would have to unlease more economic reforms which require his loosening controls of the important industry movers which history has shown he won't and can't. Thus no reforms and no promised economic benefits.

Fortunately for Putin, EU's and NATO's hand in Ukraine are pretty much weak but the Ukraine situation has resolved EU and NATO to the point where they are seeking to contain Putin and Russia within Ukraine and drawing a line and say "no further". There have been reinforcements of NATO forces in Poland and recently added NATO countries and many EU countries are quietly rebuilding up their forces should the need arises in case of a conflict.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Nov 2014 16:10

Poroshenko booed in Kiev at the time of laying flowers in memory of the heroes of the Celestial hundreds

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 21 Nov 2014 17:45

Hush, hush. Joe Biden upto Ukraine. Wonder what's cooking? Hunter...!

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 21 Nov 2014 22:50

Hitesh wrote:He could have used the dire economic consequences to negotiate a 99 year lease with a 99 year renewal option combined with low amount of lease payments.

Freehold is not the same as leasehold. Today he owns the real estate and real waters, that would allow him to dictate terms all across urop in future. There is no way into urop that Russians cannot now threaten. Kind of like our Mallaca option - only more permanent. More permanent than 99+99 years. And his Pakistans are way way piddly compared to the real pakistan.

My fear is that Putin should not overplay his hand and get into Syria etc. That could kill him. There is absolutely no guarantee that China will not double-cross Putin. They have done it earlier to the Russians and they are fully capable of doing that again. CSTO-Weesto notwithstanding. Chinese are only good for the Oil deals that Putin already has now in the kitty with the outside option of supplying to India too.

Hitesh wrote: He could have avoided the need of taking force and the need to rehabilitate the people of Crimea and not only that pre-empt NATO from making any moves. NATO wouldn't be been involved in the picture. Only EU and with time going by, it would have been made clear to the western Ukrainians that EU was not the savior as they thought it would be. They would have turned back towards to Russia once again and Putin would have greater clout and have Kiev eating out of his hands.

That would be a-characterstic. Most people spend lives justifying their original sin. Cannot be bet upon.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 22 Nov 2014 03:41

Hitesh wrote:Putin made a huge mistake by seizing Crimea with force. If he was patient, he could have gotten Crimea without force and for nothing. ..well in their rights to demand.. could have used... negotiate ..with time going by.... would have.

Now he faces the prospect of a hostile neighbor right on his border and that with time, Ukraine could morph into an powerful neighbor once it gets its house in order. That is not a good strategic move at all. He just lost his buffer state and an ally to boot. He only has eastern Ukraine to show for it and it may not an ally of Russia for long because Putin can't deliver what he promised, economic benefits because in order to deliver those promised economic benefits, he would have to unlease more economic reforms which require his loosening controls of the important industry movers which history has shown he won't and can't. Thus no reforms and no promised economic benefits.

Hitesh: Comrad Vlad preferred "DO TODAY" to all the "could, would, maybe.." Which is why he is a leader. The events of April did not provide any encouraging signs that patience would have paid off. Many Crimeans are alive and free today, that would not have been, if Putin had done nothing. The UkBapZis were on an uncontrolled roll, until those Balaclava-Helmeted, silent types suddenly appeared, remember.

Otherwise, as you say, Ukraine would have been today a monolithic, barbarous military power threatening Russia, with Blackwater and NATO ruling it. Check out how much NATO naval power is infesting the Black Sea - they would have had clear access to the Russian border via Crimea.

So Putin has averted a major catastrophe. He still faces challenges, but the security threat today is far less than it was in April. Plus, the UkBapZis are now minus several hundred tanks and terrorists, and Ukraine, which I believed to be a huge military power, is now seen to be what it really is.

There is a lot here for Indian strategists to learn. "Bhavitavyam bhavedea" is not good strategy in dealing with these types.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 22 Nov 2014 05:05

^^^ taken a step back from posting of late, have we?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 22 Nov 2014 06:50

Living in fallout shelter these days.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Nov 2014 07:32

JDW some time ago had a piece about the massive decline in the fortunes of the UKR military post Crimean annexation.It virtually has no navy whatsoever barring one Krivak DDG.The rest of the warships and only vintage Foxtrot sub are now part of the Russian Black Sea fleet. The entire qty. of ammo,etc.,shore establishments et al are now Russian. Naval aircraft and helos in flying condition managed to flee,but those under maintenance became the spoils of war. Its defence industry has been shattered and the series of military setbacks it has had fighting against the Donetsk Republic militias ,many aircraft and helos shot down,plus the loss of large amounts of armoured vehicles,etc., has turned it into a basket case where it is pleading with the US for gifts of milware. Biden Sr. is-a-visiting to take orders,no doubt "facilitated" by Biden Jr.,now a part of the UKR establishment! And they talk about Saddam's sons....,tch,tch.

Biden gets cold feet! The Chocolate soldier feels the heat.
Ukraine president heckled at tribute to Kiev protesters as Biden visits
US vice-president cancels planned visit to Independence Square as relatives of revolution dead vent anger

The Guardian, Friday 21 November 2014
Petro Poroshenko, who became Ukraine president in May.

The Ukrainian president has been heckled by relatives of 100 protesters killed in Kiev’s Euromaidan revolution at a memorial ceremony for the victims.

The relatives, frustrated by Petro Poroshenko’s failure to bring officials of the previous government to justice, shouted: “Who is a hero for you, Poroshenko?”, “Where are their killers?” and “Down with Poroshenko!” They also attacked him for failing to keep a promise to confer the title of national hero on the victims, which would bring financial benefits to their families.

It was the first real public display of anger against Poroshenko, who was elected in May after the pro-Moscow Viktor Yanukovich fled the country.

The US vice-president, Joe Biden cancelled a planned visit to the area off Kiev’s Independence Square, apparently for security reasons.

Poroshenko and Biden had been due to lay a wreath together at the memorial but instead met nearby and shook hands before the US vice president headed for talks with the prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk.

Speaking afterwards, Biden condemned Russian behaviour in Ukraine as “unacceptable” and urged it to abide by a September peace deal by adhering to a ceasefire and removing military forces from the country.

Addressing himself rhetorically to Kremlin leader Vladimir Putin, Biden said: “Do what you agreed to do, Mr Putin.”

Referring to Russia’s annexation of the Crimea in March and its backing for separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine, Biden, in a statement to the press alongside Poroshenko, said Russian behaviour was a “flagrant violation of the bedrock principles of the international system”.

Biden said the United States would always support a democratic, reformist Ukraine, but he made no specific mention of any fresh aid.
Russia denies arming the separatists or sending its troops across the border.

During his visit, Biden is expected to try to breathe new life into a tattered ceasefire in the east. Since the peace pact was declared on 5 September, more than 1,000 people have been killed in fighting between government forces and Russia-backed separatists, according to the UN.

Yatsenyuk said on Thursday he hoped for an announcement on further US assistance to Ukraine during Biden’s visit after a $53m package announced in September, which included non-lethal military equipment such as night-vision goggles, body armour and radios. But Kiev wants Washington to provide lethal assistance.

Russia has warned against the US arming Ukrainian forces, with the secretary of Russia’s national security council, Nikolai Patrushev, saying the conflict in eastern Ukraine “will grow” if this happened.

Friday marked the first anniversary of the decision by the Yanukovich government to ditch a political and free trade agreement with the EU in favour of renewed trade ties with Kiev’s old Soviet master, Russia.

The move triggered protests from tens of thousands who see Ukraine’s future in the European mainstream. After Yanukovich fled in February, Russia annexed Crimea and backed separatists in the east in a conflict which has killed more than 4,300.

Before the confrontation with the relatives, Poroshenko laid candles with other members of the government on a hill off Independence Square, known as the Maidan, where more than 50 of the estimated 100 dead were killed in late February.

The president was barely audible as he addressed the hostile crowd. “If shouting like this continues, everything we did on the Maidan will have been in vain,” he said.

Poronshenko later returned to pledge that he would sign a decree to officially designate the victims, known as the Heaven’s Hundred, as national heroes.

Elena, 65, whose husband was one of the Heaven’s Hundred, burst into tears. “I don’t know why it’s taken so long, but now at last they’ve been recognised … They died so Ukraine could live.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/n ... enko-biden

“flagrant violation of the bedrock principles of the international system”. That's precious coming from the US which has bombed,mutilated and destroyed more nations and people across the globe without the legitimacy of UN approval.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Nov 2014 10:42

Hitesh wrote: Now aside from saying that, I still think that Putin made a huge mistake by seizing Crimea with force. If he was patient, he could have gotten Crimea without force and for nothing.

I thought the same till i saw how Ukraine treated their own people in East.

If Russia had not taken over Crimea the body bags and number would have been no different then in East Ukraine and worse it would have been disputed area where neither Russian Black Sea Fleet could have been deployed for decades to come.

I think Putin when asked why did you do it said he does not want to come to Sevastopol only to be Greeted By NATO Officer.

So he worked under the assumption that the whole idea of EU integration was to bring Ukraine under NATO Eventually may be 5 years from now or 10 but that would happen atleast thats what Russian Assumption was and probably the SVR would have given them the same advise , based on the fact that in recent interview Russian NSA said they were surprised EU supported a Coup inspite of having an agreement for Election in Ukraine

Which is to say EU/US would dump any agreement if their larger interest is much greater then supporting tactical agreements.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Nov 2014 10:49

The way I see it would go is if NATO expands to Ukraine , Eastern Ukraine would be a buffer state.

But Russia would get out of SU/NATO agreement on INF Treaty and Deploy Nuclear Weapons in its territory of Klaningrad Region which is at the heart of Europe.

Thats the situation most feared by US and NATO , they dont want INF treated to be cancelled and Europe getting back to pre-1988 times

Ofcourse thats the worst case scenario ........I dont think the Economy Situation of Europe , US and Russia are good to play a new cold war.

Just that we need another 2008 like crisis which is bound to happpen sooner than later as Mr Cameron himself said recently we are in Bubble Era which would burst eventually and then things would be back to normal

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 64307.html

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Nov 2014 12:27

Maidan Massacre Documentary Ending

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Nov 2014 13:06

Dutch government refuses to reveal ‘secret deal’ into MH17 crash probe
http://rt.com/news/207243-netherlands-m ... documents/

"If the participants, including Ukraine, don't want information to be released, it will be kept secret."

-

"Part of the agreement between the four countries and the Dutch Public Prosecution Service, ensures that all these parties have the right to secrecy."

"This means that if any of the countries involved believe that some of the evidence may be damaging to them, they have the right to keep this secret."

an american investigation has become an oxymoron.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Nov 2014 16:43

^^ The Worst part about it is the host country Malaysia who lost the aircraft is not part of the agreement ....surprising

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Nov 2014 16:50

Claims about Russia’s isolation are not worth even discussions - Lavrov

MOSCOW, November 22. /TASS/. The claims about isolation of Russia are not worth even being discussed, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told a meeting of the Council on foreign and domestic policies on Saturday.

“Of course, our economy is damaged by the sanctions, but only at the expense of damages to economies of the countries, which had introduced them,” he said.

“It is equally important actions of the kind ruin the system of international economic relations, the approaches used in their basis.

Purpose of West’s sanctions

The West does not conceal the purpose of the anti-Russia sanctions is in a change of the regime, Sergey Lavrov told.

“They announce openly the sanctions should be ruining the economy and raising people’s protests,” he said.

“The West demonstrates clearly they do not want pressing for changes in the policies, but they want to press for a change of the regime,” the foreign minister said.

“Usual business” will not be possible

Russia is not going to refuse from cooperation with Europe, Russia’s Foreign Minister told.

“Nobody is going “to shoot in the foot”, to refuse from cooperation with Europe, but everyone realises “business as usual” is not possible any longer.

Gap between the U.S. ambitions and realistic opportunities

Many analysts say about a growing gap between the U.S. ambitions and realistic opportunities, Lavrov told.

“We have a million confirmations that all over the world American ambassadors, envoys are insisting on top-level meeting to say - you should be punishing Russia jointly with us,” Lavrov said. “This is done in all countries, no exceptions, including our closest allies.”

“But still, I should say many reasonable politicians realise the growing discrepancy between the U.S. administration’s global ambitions and the realistic opportunities, as the world continues changing,” the foreign minister said.

“The big seven emerging economies have been demonstrating bigger GDP than the Western G7,” Lavrov said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Nov 2014 17:08

Ukraine, US, Canada do not back Russia-initiated UN resolution on heroization of Nazism

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/761115

UNITED NATIONS, November 22. /TASS/. The third committee of the UN General Assembly on Friday adopted a resolution urging countries to adopt more efficient measures to struggle against the heroization of Nazism and other forms of racial discrimination, xenophobia and intolerance.

A total of 115 out of 193 UN member-states voted in favor of the document, initiated by Russia. Three countries opposed the document - Canada, the United States and Ukraine. Another 55 delegations, including from the European Union countries, abstained.

The resolution expresses concerns over the spread across the world of various extremist political parties, movements and groups, including neo-Nazis as well as racist extremist movements and ideologies.
The text also warns against glorification of the Nazi movement and former members of the Waffen-SS organization and erecting monuments and memorials to them.

Therefore the document calls on states to take more efficient measures in line with international standards in the human rights sphere to fight these developments and extremist movements posing a real threat to democratic values.
The resolution unequivocally condemns any denial of the Holocaust and calls for ensuring the ratification and implementation of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 22 Nov 2014 19:33

.

some Press release from US today ..despite Republicans pressure to obama send military aid to Ukraine

Deal to supply mortar locater Radar 20 nos for 118 million dollars

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123700

From white house about loans and View of US towards ukraine war

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-off ... ce-ukraine

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 22 Nov 2014 21:49

“But still, I should say many reasonable politicians realise the growing discrepancy between the U.S. administration’s global ambitions and the realistic opportunities, as the world continues changing,” the foreign minister said.

While the world is changing is true, it is Russia`s own obsession with Europe, which has been kicking its butt for the last 200 years, that is responsible for the damage caused to it. The white skin and christian biratherly love has not really worked for Russia, but despite this, it has not diversified its relations and remains Europe obsessed. So its getting only what it deserves.

Having said that, the white christian Anglo Saxon propaganda was more effective when the economy and military power was skewed in their favour. With China, India and many other countries getting richer and the white christian countries not growing, the propaganda is looking increasingly ineffective.
Here on bharat-rakshak and am sure in many other countries who aren't part of the white christian Anglo-saxon empire, their shameless lies and hypocrisy are being exposed for what it is.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 23 Nov 2014 07:34

.

A PDF Report by Jonathan Ferguson & N.R. Jenzen-Jones about list of weapons used in the civil war

total size 12 MB . Click to download

http://armamentresearch.com/Uploads/Res ... 0Flags.pdf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Nov 2014 08:45

RSoami wrote: While the world is changing is true, it is Russia`s own obsession with Europe, which has been kicking its butt for the last 200 years, that is responsible for the damage caused to it. The white skin and christian biratherly love has not really worked for Russia, but despite this, it has not diversified its relations and remains Europe obsessed. So its getting only what it deserves.

Yes 100 % True Statement , Russia never tried to move away from Europe Economically because the going was easy , Money was Good and Elite were sucking upto Europe.

Although Putin & United Russia Pary Ruled since 1999 they did little to diversify from Europe .....Even though China in 90's and 2000's were growing at 8-9 % and India in the same period grew at 6-7 % but no effort was made to integrate with fast growing economies of Asia.

Now with their butt on fire they are looking at BRICS and re-alligning their economy with Asia and BRICS ..... but probably they needed this kind of Insult , Injury and Tight Slap to move away . from their Deep Slumber & Inertia.

China and India alone are big energy customer and would remain so for few decades as Asia grows even , their energy requirement alone would mean Russia would sell most of their energy to asia instead of Europe had their done these agreement in 90's their Economy and foreign Policy would have been less susceptable to Anglo-Saxon whims

The Saving Grace for them is Better Late than Never

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Nov 2014 09:37

Putin Interview to German TV

Interview to German TV channel ARD