Military Flight Safety

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 18 May 2009 21:15

http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/16/stories ... 451700.htm

From the report above:

India began licensed production of this fighter from Russia in the early 1980s and has about 180 of these aircraft in nine squadrons in its inventory.
A dedicated ground attack fighter, the MiG-27s were first produced in the country beginning 1996 and in 1998, one of its variants named ‘Bahadur’ (Valiant) was produced in the country.
However, these type of fighters have had a poor flight safety record with MiG-27s contributing to about 10 per cent of IAF crashes between 1996 and 2001, IAF sources said.

If the production began in early 1980's then how was it first produced in 1996 and 1998?
Is the Bahadur name only for a specific variant?
Why are the statistics only for the 1996 to 2001 period?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 22 May 2009 21:41

Press Release by NAL/CSIR on Saras Crash

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 May 2009 06:52

A Sharma wrote:Press Release by NAL/CSIR on Saras Crash

Thereafter, as per the laid down procedure, asymmetric thrust was simulated by throttling back one of the engines and controllability including dummy approaches and overshoots were fully checked.

It appears that I was witness to one of these "dummy approach/overshoots" less than half an hour before it crashed. I recall being surprised a seeing what appeared to be an overshoot - I have never ever seen an overshoot occurring on an HAL test flight although I see hajaar landings. But I dismissed it from my mind.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 23 May 2009 07:44

^^ That is sad. I hope the project is a great success and we see the Saras operate all around the world. That will be the most fitting salute to the brave men who lost their lives that day.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 25 May 2009 17:15

shiv wrote:
A Sharma wrote:Press Release by NAL/CSIR on Saras Crash

Thereafter, as per the laid down procedure, asymmetric thrust was simulated by throttling back one of the engines and controllability including dummy approaches and overshoots were fully checked.
It appears that I was witness to one of these "dummy approach/overshoots" less than half an hour before it crashed. I recall being surprised a seeing what appeared to be an overshoot - I have never ever seen an overshoot occurring on an HAL test flight although I see hajaar landings. But I dismissed it from my mind.

Sad....

Interestingly, notice the way the release butters the media... Never seen that happen before. (Note: This isn't a criticism).

If it works, maybe DRDO should try it.. "We Thank the media for not mis-classifying the test as a failure", or "We thank the media for realizing that Akash isn't Nuclear capable".

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 26 May 2009 09:44

Arun_S wrote:
Narayan: Please share some gems on where the history does not repeat!
Or do you wish to withdraw your "History Repeats" pontification?

Arun saar, my worry was about the crashes that were happening, after rambha it was mig 27 just in a weeks time or so,i was worried if its the repeat of string of crashes that happened to Mig 21 under NDA regime

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2009 10:09

narayana wrote:
Arun_S wrote:
Narayan: Please share some gems on where the history does not repeat!
Or do you wish to withdraw your "History Repeats" pontification?
Arun saar, my worry was about the crashes that were happening, after rambha it was mig 27 just in a weeks time or so,i was worried if its the repeat of string of crashes that happened to Mig 21 under NDA regime

Narayana - what is the connection between NDA regime and MiG 21 crashes.

Do you mind reading (or looking at briefly) this whole thread from the first post onwards so you get an idea of what this flight safety and accident business is all about - at least in this forum.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 26 May 2009 12:02

shiv wrote: Narayana - what is the connection between NDA regime and MiG 21 crashes.

Do you mind reading (or looking at briefly) this whole thread from the first post onwards so you get an idea of what this flight safety and accident business is all about - at least in this forum.

Shiv saar its not against anyone,there were many crashes of mig-21 between 2000 and 2004/5, one reason was that the spares were brought from east european countries at a cheaper cost,even Def.Min George Fernandes had to a take ride in Mig 21 to show all was well.Accidents can be reduced if safety measures are taken care of.human errors or inexperience can result in accident anytime,but the less the better.

http://frontierindia.net/iaf-mig-21-crashes-drastically-reduced

A total number of 10 MiG 21 aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) have crashed during the last three financial years from 2004-05 to 2007-08 (till 13.8.2007). In these accidents a total number of 7 persons lost their lives.

i dont want to divert the thread,i too wanted NDA to come to power,but lets call a spade a spade.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2009 15:36

narayana wrote: i dont want to divert the thread,i too wanted NDA to come to power,but lets call a spade a spade.

By blaming one particular government you are taking the attention away from a whole host of factors that were responsible for accidents.

The reason I asked you to make the effort of reading was because:

1) MiG 23s had a higher accident rate than MiG 21s but were fewer in number so nobody noticed and everyone cursed MiG 21s (as you have done)

2) MiG 21s formed 50% of the entire Air Force and did a lot of flying. As the article by late Wingco Suresh linked earlier in the thread indicates. part of the problem was that there was no high performance lead in trainer (aka "AJT") so pilots were learning to handle supersonic thouroughbreds in the MiG 21 itself - which apparently does not forgive newbies easily. The problem did not start and end with the NDA as you seem to indicate

3) Apart from various problems relating to spares and maintenance, I believe there was an attitude problem in the IAF itself regarding accidents - in which it was taken for granted that there would be one accident a month (as stated to me in a matter of fact manner by a senior officer) (in 2000). Again the NDA has nothing to do with this

Please get your facts straight before you talk about calling a spade a spade. If you want to call a spade a spade there is no point in looking at some random stick lying about and calling it a spade.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 26 May 2009 16:50

shiv wrote: Please get your facts straight before you talk about calling a spade a spade. If you want to call a spade a spade there is no point in looking at some random stick lying about and calling it a spade.

Ok shiv sir,i am not a expert as you,i know that,but can you tell me what was the difference that happened from 2004-2008 there were only 10 Mig-21 crashes? did they Ground the birds for inspection?did they fly less? even if the above 2 are right then IAF could have done that in those years also,and could have avoided the loss of pilots atleast.

No one is blaming NDA Govt.here i didnt say that Migs are crashing because of George fernandes,but when there were so many accidents going on,anyone would expect the govt. to step in and check whats going on,there was so much hoopla going on in media.people were calling all kinds of names,Flying coffin,widow maker etc etc

And taking for granted that they can lose 1 Aircraft a month???

that was criminal negligence,they are putting the lives of poor pilots at risk.and its almost losing a sq.every year,if such is the attitude then why fly them anyway?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2009 17:30

narayana wrote:
shiv wrote: Please get your facts straight before you talk about calling a spade a spade. If you want to call a spade a spade there is no point in looking at some random stick lying about and calling it a spade.
Ok shiv sir,i am not a expert as you,i know that,but can you tell me what was the difference that happened from 2004-2008 there were only 10 Mig-21 crashes? did they Ground the birds for inspection?did they fly less? even if the above 2 are right then IAF could have done that in those years also,and could have avoided the loss of pilots atleast.

No one is blaming NDA Govt.here,but when there were so many accidents going on,anyone would expect the govt. to step in and check whats going on

And taking for granted that they can lose 1 Aircraft a month??? that was criminal negligence,they are putting the lives of poor pilots at risk.and its almost losing a sq.every year,if such is the attitude then why fly them anyway?

What happened? According to me a miracle happened. I think the public were really angry with the government and the Air Force and the IAF's current low accident rate IMO is a direct consequence of tightening up all procedures due to very strong public pressure. In a way I am proud of the Indian public and even the media - and of course the powerful lobbying done by parents and relatives of young pilots killed in crashes who felt very strongly that this was unacceptable.

You have mentioned the words "criminal negligence. I am tempted to agree with you. I am glad the IAF has tightened everything up - but it is up to the government and its babus to ensure that they do not do any g**ndmasti with the IAF's needs. The AJTs must come in required numbers and that MRCA deal must go through without delaying things interminably. And the transports too.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 26 May 2009 18:02

shiv wrote:What happened? According to me a miracle happened. I think the public were really angry with the government and the Air Force and the IAF's current low accident rate IMO is a direct consequence of tightening up all procedures due to very strong public pressure. In a way I am proud of the Indian public and even the media - and of course the powerful lobbying done by parents and relatives of young pilots killed in crashes who felt very strongly that this was unacceptable.

So sad that it took so many lives to do that.and no one is held accountable,All ex-Babus,ex-ministers,ex-marshalls sitting pretty in their AC rooms, or playing golf.and the mothers who lost their sons are crying in the dark.

And sir don't you think the governments and IAF should have done this before.not only NDA,kangress,united front,national front

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2009 19:17

narayana wrote:
And sir don't you think the governments and IAF should have done this before.not only NDA,kangress,united front,national front

narayana - this is a topic for the Indian psyche thread.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 27 May 2009 02:24

Sukhois Resume Flying

The IAF grounded its fleet of approximately 55 Russian-origin Su-30s after one of the aircraft crashed last week. Generally, an entire fleet is not grounded if an aircraft of a particular type crashes. In the case of the Su-30, however, there have been "recurring complaints" by pilots about problems with the jet.

The grounding of the Su-30 fleet has given rise to the alarming possibility of "structural faults" with the aircraft.

Were all these 'recurring complaints' related to the crash? I am pretty sure if there were such serious problems they would have grounded the fleet long back. There has been no official comment on the cause of the crash yet. I dont know why these guys throw out such doom and gloom scenarios.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 27 May 2009 17:40

X posted from Military Aviation thread

Indrajit wrote:Times Now reporting it was a refurbished AC,could have been Bison,bad news,3 crashes within a month.

I googled for it and found this. A pakistani news website
http://www.app.com.pk/en_/index.php?opt ... 8&Itemid=2

And it IS a Bison!

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 27 May 2009 18:52

Tough times for the IAF. The only silver lining is the pilot being safe.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 May 2009 18:54

Also nobody has the slightest clue WHY the MKI , mig 27 or Bison crashed.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 May 2009 19:29

Whatever be the recent safety record of the IAF, three crashes in a month of varied strike aircraft looks very,very bad.....

bijeet · Post by **bijeet** » 28 May 2009 06:47

MiG-21 crashes in Rajasthan; pilot safe

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 28 May 2009 07:39

wow, the AOC Jodhpur (Base commander) , Air Cmde S B Deo seemed to be flying it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 May 2009 08:57

cross post

Dmurphy wrote:Sukhoi crash probe narrows down to two systems onboard
Carrying out investigations in the Su-30 MKI crash on April 30 near Jodhpur, the IAF on Wednesday said that the probe has now been "narrowed down" to just two systems of the aircraft.

"Basically, the (probe into the cause of the) accident appears to have narrowed down to two systems. The first is the Flight Control System and the other, which probably caused the death of the pilot, is the ejection system as far as the rear cockpit is concerned," IAF Chief designate Air Marshal P V Naik said in the capital on Wednesday.

"Court of Inquiry (CoI) is in progress and it will take some time before we reach any conclusion," he added. Naik said that "limited data" was available with the IAF right now for investigating the causes of the accident and only after analysing the crash data recorder, it would be able to know the actual reasons.

"Crash data recorder, which records the details of the crash and its chip have to be analysed. We have sent it to the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). Unless that analysis comes, we won't be able to say this or that (cause of mishap)," Naik said.

On the possibility of problems in the figher aircraft's rear cockpit's ejection seat, he said, "as far as the ejection seat is concerned, we have to analyse that data, see the trajectory of the seat and the aircraft and only then we can come to certain conclusions."

Wg Cdr P K Narah, sitting in the rear cockpit of the twin-seater aircraft, was killed after he ejected from the aircraft when it developed a snag while returning from Jodhpur to its Pune base. Narah was part of IAF team that inspects the aircraft's performance during the flight.

The entire fleet was grounded after the crash for over 25 days.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 28 May 2009 09:10

The 'flying coffin' name is back again. It's like they were waiting for a crash to happen. And the last paragraph of the MiG 21 report was really unnecessary.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 01 Jun 2009 02:57

From:

'Post 26/11, Pak moved 75 p.c. of air force to LoC

Another achievement during his tenure is the zero flying accident rate in the WAC for the year 2008-2009. The command contributes 35 percent of the flying operations in the IAF.

Sukhoi plane crash probe is on: Air Marshal Mukul

A month after India's first Sukhoi-30 aircraft crashed, Air Marshal S C Mukul said that investigations into the mishap are on.

Mukul did not specify the time limit set for completing the probe, but said "the actual reasons (of the crash) will be known only after the Russians decipher the black box."

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 Jun 2009 03:34

Edited: OT

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jun 2009 21:48

cross post

Juggi G wrote:Is it a Bird? Is it a Plane? IAF orders DNA Tests
IndianExpress

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 02 Jun 2009 00:42

@JaiS: Sorry about that. After narayans post I thought it was civilian too. Is it only Indian military or all military flight safety?

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 02 Jun 2009 03:01

shameekg, not a problem. This thread is intended for only Indian military, though you can use the International Aerospace thread to discuss 'International flight safety' issues. Thanks.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Jun 2009 20:38

Bab News

*FLASH* IAF An-32 crashes in the East
An IAF An-32 transporter has crashed in the Eastern sector. It has yet to be confirmed if the aircraft crashed in Assam or Arunachal Pradesh. Initial reports indicate that the aircraft departed Air Force Station Jorhat today at 1PM and landed at a newly refurbished advanced landing ground (ALG) in Arunachal Pradesh. After departing the ALG a short while later, the aircraft went missing and later crashed. As of 21.30 today, the IAF has still designated the aircraft as missing, though sources in Shillong and Tezpur have confirmed that the aircraft has gone down. A court of inquiry has been ordered. Sources say the aircraft was piloted by two Wing Commanders, and was carrying 12 other ranks, including some Assam Rifles troops. The An-32 was from one of the Jorhat-based transport squadrons (No.43 or No.48).

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 09 Jun 2009 21:39

IAF AN-32 aircraft with 8 IAF personnel and six civilians goes missing, fears to have crashed, IAF spokesman says. PTI

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Jun 2009 22:12

Damn, 16 IA/IAF men lost....

Nightmare month for the IAF this.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 09 Jun 2009 22:13

tragic!! I hope there were some survivors. And more important, I hope they find the crash site soon in the dense jungle/mountainous terrain of the NE. I remember one other crash couple of years back where it took a long time to find the crash site.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 09 Jun 2009 22:42

RIP.

Really tough and trying times for the IAF. Hoping against hope for some survivors.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 10 Jun 2009 04:04

LiveFist : Revisiting the Saras crash, three months on

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 10 Jun 2009 09:19

An-32 Missing

It went missing around 14:00 Indian time and IAF helicopters were sent to comb the area and search for the aircraft. The search operations, however, called off due to poor visibility soon after sunset and will resume Wednesday morning.

sandesh · Post by **sandesh** » 10 Jun 2009 14:26

A chinese guy posted this on a forum I visit

I read some about this crash.....

Some Chinese info says the aircraft crashed in China side...

Maybe some problem such as lost control or something...ect.

Hope not to be a problem for China-Indian friendship...

Above all...there won't be any crisses between China and Indian.
And..

R.I.P
Salute.gif

Possible?

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 10 Jun 2009 15:16

sandesh wrote:A chinese guy posted this on a forum I visit
I read some about this crash.....

Some Chinese info says the aircraft crashed in China side...

R.I.P
Salute.gif
Possible?

For the Chinese, AP is Chinese Territory, so that is the most likely thing I can think of...

RIP to the unfortunate men. Reminds me of the many aircraft lost while crossing the hump during WW2...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Jun 2009 15:20

is this the first An-32 crash ? Jagan ?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 10 Jun 2009 15:45

If I remember correctly 2 AN-32 have crashed before this.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Jun 2009 15:50

do you remember the place time etc ? any details will be welcome.
thanks.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 10 Jun 2009 15:55

^^^The very first AN-32's being ferried from Russia were lost, two of them.

Wreckage of missing IAF aircraft found