Indian Missile Technology Discussion

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 12:07

Part-II
Future programs
Tactical missiles:
LRSAM: Range 70 Km, For IN. To be guided by the AESA radar in combat suit of P15A (MFSTAR)
MRSAM: is same as LRSAM, will be used by IAF, will be guided by rotating phased array radar
SRSAM: Range 15 Km, for IN & IAF, Vertical launch, Anti-missile and anti-aircraft.
I think these are Barak-II and Maitri projects respectively.

Strategic missiles:
Agni-3+: Range >5000 Km, Reaction time < 30secs, Cannisterized, Road mobile. To be test-launched next year.
Agni-5: Range 5000 Km (with MIRVs)
Under water missiles:
B-05: 700 Km
K-04: 3500 Km.
Future SLBM: 6000+Km with telescopic aerospike. Can be launched from ship/sub.
Next part on BMD.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Jul 2008 12:49

K Mehta wrote:Part-II

Under water missiles:
B-05: 700 Km
K-04: 3500 Km.
Future SLBM: 6000+Km with telescopic aerospike. Can be launched from ship/sub.

Can you tell a little more on this

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 Jul 2008 12:52

K Mehta wrote:Strategic missiles:
Agni-3+: Range >5000 Km, Reaction time < 30secs, Cannisterized, Road mobile. To be test-launched next year.
Agni-5: Range 5000 Km (with MIRVs)
Under water missiles:
B-05: 700 Km
K-04: 3500 Km.
Future SLBM: 6000+Km with telescopic aerospike. Can be launched from ship/sub.
Next part on BMD.

Agni-3+ that is good news.
Agni-5: Did he indicate # of MIRVs? or total payload mass.

B-05: Did he mention any name for this missile type? what is the significance of the Alpha and numerals? Did he say it is Sagarika? Or if is ballistic or Cruise Missile?

K-04: Did he mention any name for this missile type? what is the significance of the Alpha and numerals? Did he say it is ballistic?

Future SLBM: 6000+Km with telescopic aerospike. Can be launched from ship/sub.

This is fantastic news. Any data on length or weight?
Is close to my prediction of Agni-3SL (depending on actual payload).

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 12:56

Kakarat wrote:
K Mehta wrote:Part-II

Under water missiles:
B-05: 700 Km
K-04: 3500 Km.
Future SLBM: 6000+Km with telescopic aerospike. Can be launched from ship/sub.
Can you tell a little more on this

which one? I just wrote the range down of the 1st two from the slides he was showing, he mentioned a bit about the last one, most of which I wrote.

Arun_S wrote: Agni-3+ that is good news.
Agni-5: Did he indicate # of MIRVs? or total payload mass.

B-05: Did he mention any name for this missile type? what is the significance of the Alpha and numerals? Did he say it is Sagarika? Or if is ballistic or Cruise Missile?

K-04: Did he mention any name for this missile type? what is the significance of the Alpha and numerals? Did he say it is ballistic?

This is fantastic news. Any data on length or weight?
Is close to my prediction of Agni-3SL (depending on actual payload).

Arun, I wish you had attended that lecture, I have missed most parts of technical data.
should I mention the #, I thought it is supposed to be classified etc?
No names or other data, see above.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jul 2008 12:57

K mehta, no details on the CMs ??

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 13:07

Rahul M wrote:K mehta, no details on the CMs ??

I am afraid not. either I missed it or he didnt cover it.
In the later part he went on a lot technical and futuristic, which I couldnt grasp. Talking about conformal sensors, multiple fused sensors. He said that we have already reached mems based sensors in our missiles and are using system on chip (SOC) but will go further(I cannot recall that part as it was lot more technical).
But I found one major theme in his presentation was integration of systems, he was saying this when he was talking about LRSAM, AAD etc. as well as future technologies. I think a lot of these systems now use data from more than one type of radars, that these radars are redundant and can be used by more than one systems. For example, the radar which will be used by IAF for MRSAM can/is used by AAD as a supporting radar.
One good news is that they have successfully developed gelled IRFNA and UMH2 which reduces the risk in handling them and improves storage life.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jul 2008 13:10

conformal sensors !! good news !

btw, across the board sensor integration over multiple platforms would require mighty secure datalinks with high data speed to boot. any words on those ?

btw, thanks mehta saab for covering this seminar.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 13:55

Rahul M wrote:conformal sensors !! good news !

btw, across the board sensor integration over multiple platforms would require mighty secure datalinks with high data speed to boot. any words on those ?

btw, thanks mehta saab for covering this seminar.

yes he said we have them and said this was demonstrated during AAD test. The Target Update Terminus (TUT, I dont know if it was terminus exactly but the acronym is correct) uses this kind of datalinks to give update to the LCC (Launch command centre).

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Jul 2008 13:56

K Mehta wrote:
Kakarat wrote: Can you tell a little more on this
which one? I just wrote the range down of the 1st two from the slides he was showing, he mentioned a bit about the last one, most of which I wrote.

Was B-04 was the one which was tested recently?
when can we expect K-04 etc...

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 14:03

Kakarat wrote: Was B-04 was the one which was tested recently?
when can we expect K-04 etc...

no idea, just copied the data from the slides, he just mentioned that "apart from these systems we are also pursuing underwater systems, which I cant go into detail due to classification issues" .
By the way some aspect of his talk was about recent future, some slightly ahead of that and rest on long term directions. He also talked about loitering missiles.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 19 Jul 2008 14:07

Looks like B-05 is cruise missile , may be based on brahmos for akula-II and ATV's. K-04 might be the current SLBM for boomer with 3500 km range.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Jul 2008 14:10

So,what was the missile we test fired few months back(known to laymen as K-15)??
The B-04 or K-04?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 14:13

From the slide pictures both missiles looked very similar. So my guess is both are SLBMs. The problem that we face in the area of testing SLBMs is we dont have a sub which can launch a BM, pontoon launches are like ground tests of aircrafts. I guess the other missile can be pontoon tested too. But for a full fledged SLBM we would need an Akula or ATV.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 17:52

sum, see above. Kakarat already asked that question.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 18:17

Part-III
BMD missile system:
This program was started after 1995 when our western neighbors got M-9 and M-11s from our eastern ones, the political bosses came and asked Dr. Kalam what can you do for this problem, he then came and discussed it with scientists in DRDO and the BMD program was born. He then talked about the windows where BMD can be used, i.e. boost phase, midcourse, terminal.
Then he went onto describe the Indian BMD program.
Phase-I: AAD and PAD. For IRBM class of missiles
Phase-II: AD1 & AD2 for ICBM class of missiles.
While AAD uses RF seeker, for AD 1&2, IIR seeker will be required, for which an international collaboration is underway. The phased array radar used for AAD has a track range of 500Km and can track about 200 different targets with an RCS of 0.1 m^2. The current AAD and PAD combination can give in theory >99% probability of hit. AAD can also act as anti-cruise missile defense, with inputs from AEW/AWACS, aerostat radars, SAR satellites.
The video of AAD tests (yes both) was awesome. The electronic target attack and full range test showed that the AAD can act as a SAM for ~80 Km and a SSM for ~130 Km. The second test tracking showed both from the target as well as AAD visual confirmation of the other missile. The radar track of it showed the missiles hitting and spread of the debris. It was simply superb, the video of the tests, the high G maneuvers of the missile and the visualization of the target, just amazing.
More to come.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 19 Jul 2008 19:02

US raises pitch to sell India its missile defence system

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 253877.cms

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 19 Jul 2008 19:14

K Mehta wrote:Part-III
More to come.

K Mehta sahab thanks a lot for the info.

May be a dumb question, but Akash can be used against cruise missiles also. Why we need to expand AAD and PAD for that?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 19:23

Nitesh wrote:
K Mehta wrote:Part-III
More to come.
K Mehta sahab thanks a lot for the info.

May be a dumb question, but Akash can be used against cruise missiles also. Why we need to expand AAD and PAD for that?

.
JMTs etc
It is an overlap of roles I guess. I think in this same thread there was a discussion earlier that more than one kind of SAM makes it difficult to evade/jam. I guess evasive measures would be difficult to program. Maybe as an extra option. Another thing is that just because it can doesnt mean it will be used as a SAM. Please note only AAD and not PAD can be used for anti-cruise role.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Jul 2008 19:40

K Mehta wrote:Part-III
BMD missile system:

Phase-I: AAD and PAD. For IRBM class of missiles
Phase-II: AD1 & AD2 for ICBM class of missiles.

The Flight altitude of PAD & AAD are 80km & 30km i think, do you know any thing on the range at which they can intercept a missile

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jul 2008 21:48

Those alphas can be the diameters and the numerals are the trade-off models. When people do trade studies they assign for convenience such designators. Very simple ask aero professors. Thats how they do business.

K. Mehta. thanks for the summary. Am sure there are a lot of NPA hits on this thread. But they know it anyway! Only Indians dont. So you are part of the educating Indians.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 22:04

Kakarat wrote: The Flight altitude of PAD & AAD are 80km & 30km i think, do you know any thing on the range at which they can intercept a missile

Its the height he mentioned. 40 and 15 kms IIRC.

ramana wrote:Those alphas can be the diameters and the numerals are the trade-off models. When people do trade studies they assign for convenience such designators. Very simple ask aero professors. Thats how they do business.

K. Mehta. thanks for the summary. Am sure there are a lot of NPA hits on this thread. But they know it anyway! Only Indians dont. So you are part of the educating Indians.

Ramana, the world respects power, look at China and US. They carry on regardless of what world thinks etc etc. Look at China, we follow all rules and yet have to kowtow when we need U for our energy needs, they proliferate but nothing is done to stop them and are recognized as "Nooklear power" or Nooklear weapons state. The world respects power and bows to it. The only way we can get the world to give the respect due to a nation which has sensible world political ambitions, is by showing what power it really has. That is why I agree with Arun_S when he publishes the full range of Indian missiles. Heck the chinese or amirkhans dont care a hoot about the world or India when they develop their new weapons, why the hell should India bother about them. The worst thing is Chinese do an elaborate show of strength when any Indian dignitary visits, by exploding a missile or putting some claim. We should too test sub launched missiles when their pm or somebody else visits. The world respects power and not peaceful intentions. I believe in having power with peaceful intentions. Without the backing of power, peaceful intentions are meaningless. As Roosevelt said "Talk softly but carry a big stick." We are still doing the soft talking, time to show the big stick has come. Wait for my next and last post on the lecture tomorrow.

ticky · Post by **ticky** » 19 Jul 2008 22:18

Requesting BRFite in Bangalore to buy Mehta a round of beer

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 22:26

ticky, I would need re-entry shield mk4 to enter home after that. I am a gujju and a teetoteller by force

.

ticky · Post by **ticky** » 19 Jul 2008 22:53

K Mehta wrote:ticky, I would need re-entry shield mk4 to enter home after that. I am a gujju and a teetoteller by force .

Sorry Boss

....anyway, a great job. take a bow

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 20 Jul 2008 02:44

K Mehta wrote:The phased array radar used for AAD has a track range of 500Km and can track about 200 different targets with an RCS of 0.1 m^2.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Jul 2008 11:39

Part-IV
Hypersonic vehicle:
This type of vehicle can use hydrocarbon fuel or hydrogen fuel. In the current scramjet configuration first Agni booster will be used to get the vehicle to ~Mach-6 after which the scramjet would kick off. The model tests at hypersonic velocity, shock tests etc are over. IIRC the engine has been tested too (It appeared in news IIRC).

Anti-satellite system:
After the recent events, it was decided to look at our own options to develop an anti-satellite system. AD radar can be used to track satellite and its C4I systems can also be used in this respect as well. Agni-1 first stage coupled with AAD vehicle can target satellites in 700 Km orbit.

Loitering autonomous missile: It would be a subsonic cruise missile with multiple sensors and multi-mode warheads so can be used in more than one kind of mission. It would have fused sensors to reduce weight, with no/very few moving parts in sensors.

Boost phase intercept: Fighter aircraft with integrated data on launch from satellites and hypersonic/supersonic missile.

Multiple kill vehicles for BMD: Small multiple kinetic energy kill vehicles will be used in this case which can do autonomous kill with/without guidance from command centre.

He also spoke on sensors and how their development is helping other fields, for eg. RLG has been developed for LCA. He also talked about 2 m diameter composite rocket motor. He said that we were further improving our missile structures. He said that we were moving from riveted to welded joints as well as prefabricated ones. This would lead to weight saving as well as endurance.

Request to admins to remove the previous OT posts.
thats all that i have noted down, I might just remember a few things if any queries are made. so folks keep shooting.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Jul 2008 11:47

maitya wrote:
K Mehta wrote:The phased array radar used for AAD has a track range of 500Km and can track about 200 different targets with an RCS of 0.1 m^2.

yeah that shocked me too (pleasantly that is).

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 20 Jul 2008 12:09

What targets other then re-entry warheads and cruise missiles have RCS of 0.1m sq ?
Looks like this thing will be able to track a F-22 and a B-2 from a reasonable distance.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jul 2008 12:58

Boost phase intercept: Fighter aircraft with integrated data on launch from satellites and hypersonic/supersonic missile.

seems like a totally new solution to the problem.

Multiple kill vehicles for BMD: Small multiple kinetic energy kill vehicles will be used in this case which can do autonomous kill with/without guidance from command centre.

could you elaborate ? I'm unsure what this means ?

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 20 Jul 2008 13:02

Anything about

Anti Radiation missiles
Air to Air missiles apart from Astra for WVR range?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Jul 2008 13:23

Breathtakingly ambitious. One wonders about the projects that are classified.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 20 Jul 2008 13:39

K Mehta wrote:
maitya wrote:
yeah that shocked me too (pleasantly that is).

Awesome.Is this system mobile? Could really work wonders if integrated with Akash.

F22 is said to have an RCS of less than 0.01 sqm.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Jul 2008 14:04

Rahul M wrote:
Boost phase intercept: Fighter aircraft with integrated data on launch from satellites and hypersonic/supersonic missile.
seems like a totally new solution to the problem.
Multiple kill vehicles for BMD: Small multiple kinetic energy kill vehicles will be used in this case which can do autonomous kill with/without guidance from command centre.
could you elaborate ? I'm unsure what this means ?

Multiple kill vehicles which can vector and neutralize MIRVs, just like MIRVs but used against them.
I thought the boost phase intercept thing looks very similar to the US concept/rumour based on AMRAAM?

Raj Malhotra wrote:Anything about
Anti Radiation missiles
Air to Air missiles apart from Astra for WVR range?

No and no. But he showed data on astra mk-1 - 80km, mk-2 -100 km.

prashanth wrote:Awesome.Is this system mobile? Could really work wonders if integrated with Akash.
F22 is said to have an RCS of less than 0.01 sqm.

It is the LRTR, a derivative of green pine but more powerful than green pine radar from Israel.

abrahavt · Post by **abrahavt** » 20 Jul 2008 16:28

F22 is said to have an RCS of less than 0.01 sqm

Detecting an F-22 and trying to bring it down with a sensor/radar in a Air to Air missile are two different things.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 20 Jul 2008 16:33

Thanks K Mehta sir.
One small question for experts.

Currently, our air defense systems such as Akash, AAD,PAD, each have different sets of radar and command and control systems to guide missiles. Is it possible to develop an integrated air defence unit that consists of one set of radars(consisting of FCR, Tracker etc), one mission control centre, that is compatible with all of the above missiles?
This might be more economical.
Of course, I have assumed here that the LRTR is mobile, like the Rajendra PAR.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Jul 2008 16:55

prashanth wrote:Thanks K Mehta sir.
One small question for experts.

Currently, our air defense systems such as Akash, AAD,PAD, each have different sets of radar and command and control systems to guide missiles. Is it possible to develop an integrated air defence unit that consists of one set of radars(consisting of FCR, Tracker etc), one mission control centre, that is compatible with all of the above missiles?
This might be more economical.
Of course, I have assumed here that the LRTR is mobile, like the Rajendra PAR.

prashanth each radar is needed. diff radars have diff uses. Aerostats, ground radars, AEW/AWACS. Other radars are required to cover shadow regions or blind spots of main radars. Nowadays redundancy is the key. In the presentation, he talked about integrated air defence that is different radars, like Aerostats, ground radars, AEW/AWACS, LRTR, Rajendra etc, giving information to the Launch control center, which in turn controls all other air defence units like Akash, AAD, LR-SAM, SR-SAM etc. It would be a seamless integrated radar coverage and Air defence protection.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 20 Jul 2008 17:00

I see......
Thanks sir.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2008 18:53

Agni-3+: Range >5000 Km, Reaction time < 30secs, Cannisterized, Road mobile. To be test-launched next year.

the DF31 and DF21 are also containerized. does anyone know if they are hot or cold
launch?

I would assume Agni continues to be hot launch?

anyone know why Topol-M was made cold launch when hot would work on land?
was the launch tube tech ported 100% from a ssbn platform ..(Sa-n-6 rif pumps
its tubes with seawater before launch) but topol is surely a "dry" cold launch.

also what kind of sound is produced in a cold launch - a whooosh or a thunderclap
type of slapping sound followed by growl of the motor starting?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 20 Jul 2008 19:27

Topol-M launch (with sound)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=z-rcBMGp3kE

halfway into this clip is another Topol-M launch
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6BCoBGdvyiQ

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2008 19:59

Allah! compressed air its almost soundless...luv that massive TEL...