Indian Army Discussion

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 18:12

Surya wrote:I really do not see the point of countering Sachins arguments by bringing other wrongs committed by IAS or IPS etc

Those who are not in favour of the sahayak system are also not in favour of the raj mentality in the IAS , IPS etc.

After all the public still considers the IA the most trusted org in the country. and yes the Army is the most principled - no doubt about it.

The system and the media - presently may not shine a light on that does not mean Sachin's arguments about the army are invalid.

The point is tha the potential for misuse exists and happens. Every other army seems to be doing fine without the system so you are going to be hardpressed to argue this is a necessity.

So yes come down hard on the IAS, IPS - rally - demand they also stop their misuse \abuse - but to use this to counter the arguments on the sahayak system is silly

There are silly people who counter arguments of the sahayak system with other examples. Count me in that bracket.

All those are against the sahayak systems are an anachronism of the Raj maybe equally aghast at the misuse in the IPS and IAS, however, they should first address misuses done by the IAS and IPS for the simple reason that they are NOT authorised and do it. Then the should take on the Army because it IS Authorised.

Let's catch the bull by the horns and not by the gonads!

There is no potential misuse by the IAS and the IPS. There is TOTAL misuse.

How the other Armies are doing it? You tell us.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Aug 2009 18:30

I do not have to tell you how the other Armies do it

Thats for you (as in the Army) to figure out how to do without the sahayak system and argue it with the powers to be.

If I look at 30 or 40 (forget the other 100 odd) of the top professional armies and see that they do not have this system it is something to think off.

With regards to the IAS \ IPS you are preaching to the choir - Most of us on this forum if we had the ability would have drastically curtailed those idiots. so thats a PR battle that needs to be waged and will be ongoing.

At the end of the day this is as much a PR battle as much as all the issues of misuse etc. and you are going to lose the PR aspect of it no matter what

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 01 Aug 2009 23:48

Well, the principle reason I object to this 'battle', is because it was initiated by the IAS/IPS fellows, to demean the army, and make it look bad in the media. Not out of any real issues arising, not out of any concerns for jawans welfare, not even based on any facts!

I just feel a bit irritated that our fellow BR-ites, along with so many others have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

@Surya: And anyway, if we are discussing these matters, why should we not discuss abuse by the IPS and IAS fellows also? Your argument seems to be, that "Yeh to chalta hi hai, let us forget the IPS, and focus on the Army".

Using your logic, If the top police forces in the world can do without armed guards posted outside their mid rung officers homes, why cant our IPS and SPS wallahs? Oh, because our environment is different? Perhaps our armys environment is also different from these famous top 100 armies of the world.

If The precedence of the highest US police officers is listed as being equivalent to Full Colonels or Lower (The highest US police officials are equitable with a full colonel in the army), then why cant our policemen do with the same? Oh yes, the US DoD lists head of state police as equal in precedence to a full colonel. (This, despite the fact that many wear a ridiculous number of stars on their lapels).

The director of the FBI is in the third schedule of the US DoD order of precedence. The chiefs of services and heads of Army commands are in the 2nd schedule. Only the President of the US is in the first schedule.

I know the defence services in India are held to a higher standard. But remember that this is because they set a higher standard for themselves. The fact that other services have failed abjectly, doesnt give them a special pass to keep failing. And it especially rankles, when they try and raise non issues, put negative spin on them, and mislead our citizens about our armed forces, for personal status gain, and to deflect some of the well deserved brickbats that they receive, because again and again, the armed forces show them up as being incompetent, by clearing up their messes.

Their constant whine is that defence officers are arrogant. That they consider IAS IPS useless. Well, if they (army officers) constantly have to clean up the mess made by our all India services, why shouldnt they think little of these heaven born officers?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Aug 2009 00:22

Absolutely feel free to blast away at IPS and IAS in the appropriate thread

I will join you.

I have never said do not bring that up. I am saying using that to justify the sahayaks is a losing battle

Thats why you are not going to see any defence talking heads bring this up.

Actually depending on the situation armed guards would be there. But yes in peaceful places I have no problem if you take away armed guards. from IPS,IAS ,mantri so yeah I would argue for it

The reality is trying to justify it is a losing battle and hence you do not see anyone publicly stepping forward for it.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 02 Aug 2009 01:58

I see this battle as being fought for the wrong reasons. Someone wants to pull a service and its officers down a peg, and so theyre pitching in with all their might. Someone has to help the officers perform certain duties. If the Pak Army and others have hired civilians instead, thats one thing. Maybe we should look into it. Maybe.

The US army officially does not have sahayaks. Unofficially............

And you see, its where this sort of thing is unofficial that the real abuse starts. As long as its authorised, and there are rules, its fine.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 02 Aug 2009 02:00

Surya wrote:

Actually depending on the situation armed guards would be there.

I can think of almost zero situations in which a British or American or Canadian or German or Australian etc etc police officer would have an armed guard. Even during emergent threats, they have things like witness protection identity change programs, instead.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Aug 2009 02:14

ASP saab, use of policemen as domestic helps by police officers is a huge issue in WB at the moment. whatever be the merits of the sahayak system in IA, a way has to be found to counter the media propaganda. as it is, the current justifications won't cut it for the common people (I'm not saying the justifications are incorrect, but the average Indian won't get it, period) and that is a very bad situation for the army to be in.
if that doesn't happen/IA doesn't bother, it will be
media- 1
India(army) - 0

irrespective of the merits of the system.

JMT.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Aug 2009 02:35

Actually ASP - after a German police chief was stabbed by neo nazis - he now has protection.

If there are known threats to an individual protection is provided - whether it is Rushdie or police chiefs or whoever

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 02 Aug 2009 14:09

Right. After all, the chap had to go to the trouble of being STABBED, before he got police protection. NOt the de rigeur "Gunmen" which nowadays follow all IAS and IPS.

Meanwhile, NS Sisodia, IAS (RETD), is now making claims that IA will stage a coup, if it is given higher financial powers. Isnt this coup bugbear becoming a bit of an excuse for the IAS to do anything it wants at all. I think the IAS has already staged a coup, and is trying to down the one institution which can stop it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Aug 2009 18:13

off tangent here on jackasses like Sisodia. Taming the bureaucracy will require a powerful politician beholden to none. but that argument is irrelevant in the pro vs con of sahayak

In fact the Army was dumb to fight the sahayak battle. This is a classic strategy from Yes Minister which the bureaucracy used. In fact this is so perfect - this cuts the IAF and IN out because they have no dog in this fight. They set the Sahayak battle and the army dumbly waded into it in splendid isolation. And so in came the galant political establishment and "helped" the Army to maintain the status quo. Now more important issues like pay, order of precedence, order of 155mm artillery etc. are consigned to the dustbin because the bureaucracy and politicians will say "listen we went to bat for you on this horrible sahayak system".

The Army should have figured out an alternate system system rather than fight it.

Regarding guards
once again I have no problems if guards ,gunmen are withdrawn if no known threat.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 02 Aug 2009 18:21

Surya wrote:I do not have to tell you how the other Armies do it

Thats for you (as in the Army) to figure out how to do without the sahayak system and argue it with the powers to be.

If I look at 30 or 40 (forget the other 100 odd) of the top professional armies and see that they do not have this system it is something to think off.

With regards to the IAS \ IPS you are preaching to the choir - Most of us on this forum if we had the ability would have drastically curtailed those idiots. so thats a PR battle that needs to be waged and will be ongoing.

At the end of the day this is as much a PR battle as much as all the issues of misuse etc. and you are going to lose the PR aspect of it no matter what

Look, unlike you, we don't get fascinated by what other armies do.

We know what we have to do and we are quite capable.

In case you think other armies are doing it better, then it is YOUR call to tell us how.

I really don't care what others do, IAS and IPS, but I sure would prefer they don't pontificate and needle the politicians against the Army.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Aug 2009 18:27

Yawnnnn Yeah I love other armies

Hence I spend hours here.

Anyway then its tooo bad

you lost the PR battle with this attitude. because thats one of the questions everyone is going to throw at you. And if this is the best you can come up with then good luck.

So far all you have come up is

1 - we need to look smart and spiffy
2 - need to be protected while we are concentrating on other task

Neither will sway most observers and it obviously did not. Not the press, not the public, not the politicians and hell not the bureaucrats.

(note - like the Kargil celebration showed - public perception can work wonders)

But the bureaucrats made a great pretence of letting you keep it and one upped you.

Bureaucracy ran rings around you and you have only yourself to blame.

(You = Army arguments)

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 02 Aug 2009 18:34

A question for gurus,Here is the video from excercise when we had foreign observers.This smart gentelman in one of the videos also notes the rate of fire and other parameters in a video which i cannot find right now.In the following video he fires our guns.My question is there a way we shield our weapons parameters by showing off only the limited range weapons during excercise from our so called partners ?.And do our smart guys also takes similar notes ?. I also will try to post a video where amirkhan guys with nikon dslr were present in il-78 mki cockpit for snaps.Is such a thing aloud ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhbQJH_6 ... re=related

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 02 Aug 2009 19:32

Check this out amirkhan photographer with their flashy cameras :

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 0.jpg.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 4.jpg.html

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 02 Aug 2009 19:46

krishna_krishna wrote:Here is the video from excercise when we had chinese observers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhbQJH_6 ... re=related

but that video shows a minister from Singapore observing firing of the Pegasus during the joint exercises.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 02 Aug 2009 21:10

Please check the pics in the second post. Lets say foreign observers if that would make you happy.But the crux of the point i want to raise it, should this be allowed or is allowed.

Atish · Post by **Atish** » 03 Aug 2009 01:45

Guys anybody noticed the NDTV video alleging molestation by a Sikh infantry jawan on an Assamese woman. The channel is drumming up a huge witchhunt against the jawan. The tragedy of India is that the media simply has no concept of ethics, forget about following norms.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Aug 2009 07:20

Surya wrote:Yawnnnn Yeah I love other armies

Hence I spend hours here.

Anyway then its tooo bad

you lost the PR battle with this attitude. because thats one of the questions everyone is going to throw at you. And if this is the best you can come up with then good luck.

So far all you have come up is

1 - we need to look smart and spiffy
2 - need to be protected while we are concentrating on other task

Neither will sway most observers and it obviously did not. Not the press, not the public, not the politicians and hell not the bureaucrats.

(note - like the Kargil celebration showed - public perception can work wonders)

But the bureaucrats made a great pretence of letting you keep it and one upped you.

Bureaucracy ran rings around you and you have only yourself to blame.

(You = Army arguments)

Woke you from a deep sleep?

Bureaucrats allowed us to keep sahayaks?

A couple of trips to the Siachen and they will wake up too!

Action speaks louder than words!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Aug 2009 07:43

EDITED

Is this Indian soldiers

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Aug 2009 07:55

Ray sir,

The nuances are too many to try and educate these arm chair generals....

tsktskts..

cheers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2009 08:44

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/outrage_ ... _assam.php

the video is bottom of the link. place is halflong (north cachar hills distt HQ) Assam.

it is extremely unusual for a woman to go around in the marketplace
stoning a bunch of burly armed soldiers. I am sure some incident took
place for which the normal reserve of a indian woman took backseat.

if not for the presence of crowd recording on cell cameras, the incident
could have taken a violent turn for the woman.

unlike cases like of outright rape / murder / beating it is impossible for victims to prove anything in eve teasing and molestation.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Aug 2009 09:28

(Crosses out armchair generals) (replaces with Fanboys).

If Surya understands that all this is because the civil services are on an agenda to down the armed forces, then that is sufficient education carried out as far as I am concerned. The issues are not justice, or equality. It is, who can use the media to project whom in a bad light, and influence public opinion. bu

Indeed, much of the armed forces woes come from the (deliberately engineered) spinelessness of its senior leadership, who want to prove to the government, how they are busy saving it money, and how well they adhere to rules set by bureaucrats, to the detriment of their juniors.

To give an example, I know of the commander of a certain station in 1960s UP needed land for long range firing ranges, the lack of which was hampering training. He approached the GoC to take action, and request acquisition of land. The GoC shot him down, on the pleas that the state govt had no land to give, and platitudes like "India is an overpopulated country", "there is no more land available" etc etc.

Well, the Brigadier was a tough sort, and not the type to be afraid of doing what he felt was correct. He went up to the state government, met the divisional commissioner, and discussed the matter. He received three times as much land as he needed.

And once it was all done, the pontifical GoC, self appointed defender of India's land, was not heard from again.

Atish · Post by **Atish** » 03 Aug 2009 10:05

Singha,

I looked at the video and I agree that there is about a high chance that the soldier looks guilty, but we do not know the facts of the case. Sometimes hands brushes accidentally, I have seen it happen to friends and luckily in every case the girl came around and agreed that it was a misunderstanding, but not before one bf created an unnecessary ruckus and almost came to blows. Another time at an airport, (I was like 14-15) some random older man and his family comes up with a stone claiming that I had thrown it at him. That asshole argued with my uncle for half an hour, I was so pissed I told him to f*ck off.

And I have also seen random people with mental disease accuse people I know well of rape, attempted murder, poisoning what have yo. Very common for people suffering from paranoia/schizophrenia. Bottom line is a media lynch mob is not on, especially when its a sensitive issue like Indian Army in terrorist infested areas. Perfect propoganda for the bad guys. By the time facts come out it may be too late.And I dont know why the peoples at my alma mater (UC Berkeley) are going livid at this. Nobody ever gave a f*ck for Assam there before.

What are the options for a jawan getting stoned by a livid woman in public, can he hit back? Just in case say he is innocent, he is still screwed coz he is humiliated whatever he does.

As I said, people dont seem to respect the need for a law abiding society or Constitutional rights, the jawan is presumed innocent.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 03 Aug 2009 10:24

Wiki on the Batman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(military)

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Aug 2009 10:32

It is all over the internet - viral spread

http://www.misual.com/2009/08/01/hmar-g ... wan-video/

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 03 Aug 2009 11:05

RayC wrote:There is a dhobi. So why should a shayak press or wash the clothes of the officer?

I can understand the operational requirements of a sahayak. Keeping that in mind, I can also understand a sahayak maintaining the stuffs like uniform etc. etc. My goose is the officer's family treating the sahayak as a servant given by the Army for free

. It is here the misuse comes in.

And I am also in favour of removing any kind of orderly/batman system from IAS,IPS as well.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Aug 2009 11:14

Sachin wrote:
RayC wrote:There is a dhobi. So why should a shayak press or wash the clothes of the officer?
I can understand the operational requirements of a sahayak. Keeping that in mind, I can also understand a sahayak maintaining the stuffs like uniform etc. etc. My goose is the officer's family treating the sahayak as a servant given by the Army for free . It is here the misuse comes in.

And I am also in favour of removing any kind of orderly/batman system from IAS,IPS as well.

One can take the sahayaks away from the Army, but misuse of Group D personnel by the IAS and IPS can never be removed.

They have the politicians in their grip.

Further, should Chidambaram's plan to reduced the NSG protection of politicians based on the threat not be implemented?

So, should not there be a level playing field?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Aug 2009 12:45

somnath wrote:Wiki on the Batman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(military)

I see SomNath's return coincides with my own! Heh.

The link isnt working. But I found it on my own. Here is what wiki describes the duties of a "Batman" as being:

* acting as a "runner" to convey orders from the officer to subordinates
* maintaining the officer's uniform and personal equipment as a valet
* driving the officer's vehicle, sometimes under combat conditions
* acting as the officer's bodyguard in combat
* other miscellaneous tasks the officer does not have time or inclination to do

These seem perfectly reasonable. Now, where is the proof that these are not what happens?

I think that noone on this forum thinks that treating a "batman" as a servant is correct. Indeed, we are informed, by former military officers on this forum, that this doesnt happen in MOST cases. Further, we see that there are strict orders to ensure it does not happen.

Who should we believe? The armed forces of India? Or strange rumours, backed up by people saying "we dont know what happens in military camps".

Of course, this is all a smear campaign, as Surya points out, well orchestrated, by people who know how to run a good smear campaign.

Question is, can it be fought off? Surya thinks not. And to a point he is right. It would take a very strong politico to put the civil services in their place.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 03 Aug 2009 16:07

^^^ My two pence on the Batman conversation...Having lived in govt housing throughout my life in various cities, I think misuse of govt infrastructure (not just "people", but also cars, guest houses of PSUs etc) is rampant in most departments..Many functionaries take them as legit perks!

According to me the only way to really address this is by abolishing the whole panoply of "perks" altogether..So abolish govt provided housing, batmen (or their civvie counterparts, like service constables for the DSP), govt provided cars (but for maybe some very senior functionaries), PSU guest houses etc..Monetise the entire compensation just like it is in the pvt sector..

So the govt servant needs to find his own place to stay in the city, buy his own car (or use public transport), stay in hotels while travelling...this will almost immediately reduce the misuse and corruption (like usage of PSU guesthouses and cars - probably the most misused facility in govt, besides misuse of personnel)...

This will also sensitise the public servant to the difficluties faced by ordinary citizens all the time and bring them out of their cocoons..Shoudl also substantially apply for defence services - can be immediately done for the Air Force and Navy at least, and even the Army should be substantially roped in at least in the peace time locations (like Delhi and Mumbai)...

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Aug 2009 17:09

Having lived a certain amount of my life in Govt housing in Delhi as well, I can agree with some of Somnaths points.

In theory, these ideas arent actually that bad, especially for civilian government servants. Most advanced countries maintain defence housing (given that defence estates are often in areas where there is no civvie housing, because barracks type housing is de rigeur for an armed force, which needs to be at the ready, because operational readiness might be affected by having to assemble troops from all over the place), but seldom, if ever maintain any sort of housing for civil servants.

All these things (special housing zones, govt guest houses, armed bodyguards, an armada of staff cars), are within the gargantuan edifice of patronage and welfare networks established by and for govt servants.

One point particularly stands out: that living in "regular" housing, and not in exclusive complexes for government employees certainly will bring the realities of urban Indian life alive for our public servants, who so often are the ones running these services (electricity, water, security, etc). All of which services are of course, provided at optimal levels in these housing complexes.

But:

1. Is there enough housing stock to cater for these persons in our cities?

2. Will the monetisation be sufficient to cover housing in these cities?

3. Where will the District Magistrate, of, say, Ziro, Arunachal Pradesh live?

One thing I can say which says that at least facilities like government cars can be withdrawn, is that in the Nehruvian days, young IAS officers often rode bicycles to work, and they suffered no ill effects. But those were, of course, more idealistic days...

The Navy already uses mostly taxicabs for staff cars, and does not maintain a fleet of flag vehicles. This, I suppose, is because it considers itself a non land based service. Army and Air Force are also moving towards this model, though I must say, an Indica with a star plate on it, looks nothing short of ridiculous.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Aug 2009 17:44

Indeed, much of the armed forces woes come from the (deliberately engineered) spinelessness of its senior leadership

Amen to that.

Meanwhile regarding the video - with the camera on the soldier is damned either way - he ended up getting humiliated. Still unclear from the video whether there was an incident but a sad video.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Aug 2009 19:08

ASP

At certain levels there is excellent relations between civil and military

My friend happens to be the Cmdt of a certain school - which has a helipad.

Of course this means mantris would love to use it. The protocol calls for the appropriate IAS officer from the CMs office to call and request permission to use it from the Cmdt.

In this case the IAS guy does it regularly without fail and even drops by to thank them once in a while.

Its in the higher ups we see that pathetic behaviour and firmness on part of our sr jernails would go a long way in stopping the rot.

Coming back to the video

this is where the army needs to have a backup womens unit (police , CRPF - whatever) which could have been called in to handle this.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Aug 2009 20:28

somnath wrote:^^^ My two pence on the Batman conversation...Having lived in govt housing throughout my life in various cities, I think misuse of govt infrastructure (not just "people", but also cars, guest houses of PSUs etc) is rampant in most departments..Many functionaries take them as legit perks!

According to me the only way to really address this is by abolishing the whole panoply of "perks" altogether..So abolish govt provided housing, batmen (or their civvie counterparts, like service constables for the DSP), govt provided cars (but for maybe some very senior functionaries), PSU guest houses etc..Monetise the entire compensation just like it is in the pvt sector..

So the govt servant needs to find his own place to stay in the city, buy his own car (or use public transport), stay in hotels while travelling...this will almost immediately reduce the misuse and corruption (like usage of PSU guesthouses and cars - probably the most misused facility in govt, besides misuse of personnel)...

This will also sensitise the public servant to the difficluties faced by ordinary citizens all the time and bring them out of their cocoons..Shoudl also substantially apply for defence services - can be immediately done for the Air Force and Navy at least, and even the Army should be substantially roped in at least in the peace time locations (like Delhi and Mumbai)...

The reason why government personnel are given accommodation in a particular place is that it allows locating them in an emergency. It also creates a bond as an organisation and permits informal interaction out of office hours.

For the military and the police living in designated government quarter is essential since they can be mustered in an emergency as a group and moved to the area of the emergency. Time, in such scenario, is of paramount importance. This is more so, applicable to the military.

While the egalitarian idea that cars, housing, etc should be abolished and the government servants should be recompensed financially is a good idea as a concept, but then they would have to be recompensed compatible to corporate equivalent! The government would go bankrupt! And politicians complaining that as ‘people’s representative’, they should get higher perk and so on! They are beyond law since they can slap government functionaries or be abusive as Mayawati is where she does not hesitate insulting the Father of the Nation and get away.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? They have the temerity to question!
In the military, there is no free use of guest houses or meals. You pay for it. For use of cars, you pay for it, though I will agree the sum is ridiculously low and so happily few complain. I will concede that quite a few don’t even care to pay this paltry sum! You also pay for the house, electricity and waters, the latter two as per the local rates.

As far as paying for hotels, the current reimbursement would not get you a room in where the hippies stay in Delhi. I was posted to Delhi and I was not given accommodation and I was told the government would reimburse. Horrors of horrors, it would not be enough to shack up in a redlight area. That much for the government being concerned where you stay!! I had to barge into a friend’s house and stay there till I got accommodation after a month in a Mess.

Interesting idea but impractical from the efficiency aspect!

I might add that the Air Force does their sorties in the wee hours of the morning. Imagine a pilot staying 30 kms away from the Air Force Base in a private accommodation, commuting through Delhi traffic and then flying! We will have more air mishaps and the Nation will breathe down the neck without realising it is they who are responsible for the pilot being tired and not active!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Aug 2009 22:21

Just noted the reference to "armchair generals" from ks_sachin.

If it is in reference to me then it is sad - especially when he happens to be on my email list.

A certain Shukla labelled us fan boys and had to eat humble crow.

ANd I hope it is not with reference to Sachin who has put in eons of time on the Army web page - many after a full work week to gather information etc. He has earned the right to question pretty much anything without having to be defensive

Anyway in this case its the armchair generals who have a better grasp - while the real Generals (all those who call us thus) tilt at windmills

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Aug 2009 22:25

somnath wrote:Wiki on the Batman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(military)

One example of a famous officer and batman in the Second World War was British actor Lieutenant-Colonel David Niven and his batman, fellow actor Peter Ustinov.[3]

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 03 Aug 2009 23:01

ASPuar wrote:
somnath wrote:Wiki on the Batman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(military)
I see SomNath's return coincides with my own! Heh.

The link isnt working. But I found it on my own. Here is what wiki describes the duties of a "Batman" as being:

* acting as a "runner" to convey orders from the officer to subordinates
* maintaining the officer's uniform and personal equipment as a valet
* driving the officer's vehicle, sometimes under combat conditions
* acting as the officer's bodyguard in combat
* other miscellaneous tasks the officer does not have time or inclination to do

These seem perfectly reasonable. Now, where is the proof that these are not what happens?

Runners were needed when there were no/few radios or other wireless communication equipments.

Maintaining officers uniform, personal equipment etc = nokar in India. Regardless of what officer/Brass assumes that means to them. Its hard for civilian folks to see a soldier doing chores of a domestic servant

Driving vehicle etc can be done by officer himself or drivers like every where else

Bodyguard is good but they should be called bodyguards not sahayaks

Other miscellaneous tasks = errand boy, get vegetable, cigarettes, sabun and shampoo

I can see need for a competent "personal assistant" for army officers who helps an officer in discharging his duties but current sahayak system is perceived as a euphemism for personal "nokar/servant" paid for by govt and counted as soldier.

Separate two of them and it'll look honest. Either say they are servants or say they are official assistants that will only assist officer when he is officially on duty.

And if all them extra fancy uniforms are what is justification for employing these sahayak folks for hundreds of corers than we should get rid of those uniforms and get simpler ones. Reduce occasions when officers need to wear them and outsource ceremonial uniform maintenance works to service depots.

And yes we need to do the same to IAS/IPS and everyone else.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Aug 2009 23:02

Surya wrote:Just noted the reference to "armchair generals" from ks_sachin.

If it is in reference to me then it is sad - especially when he happens to be on my email list.

A certain Shukla labelled us fan boys and had to eat humble crow.

ANd I hope it is not with reference to Sachin who has put in eons of time on the Army web page - many after a full work week to gather information etc. He has earned the right to question pretty much anything without having to be defensive

Anyway in this case its the armchair generals who have a better grasp - while the real Generals (all those who call us thus) tilt at windmills

Since you are so well versed with the world and it nuances, do please take over as our Chief of the Army!

We will benefit so immensely.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Aug 2009 23:06

Katare wrote:
Runners were needed when there were no/few radios or other wireless communication equipments.
Maintaining officers uniform, personal equipment etc = nokar in India. Regardless of what officer/Brass assumes that means to them. Its hard for civilian folks to see a soldier doing chores of a domestic servant
Driving vehicle etc can be done by officer himself or drivers like every where else
Bodyguard is good but they should be called bodyguards not sahayaks
Other miscellaneous tasks = errand boy, get vegetable, cigarettes, sabun and shampoo

I can see need for a competent "personal assistant" for army officers who helps an officer in discharging his duties but current sahayak system is euphemism for personal "nokar/servant" paid for by govt and counted as soldier.

Separate two of them and it'll look honest. Either say they are servants or say they are official assistants that will only assist officer when he is officially on duty.

And if all them extra fancy uniforms are what is justification for employing these sahayak folks for hundreds of corers than we should get rid of those uniforms and get simpler ones. Reduce occasions when officers need to wear them and outsource ceremonial uniform maintenance works to service depots.

And yes we need to do the same to IAS/IPS and everyone else.

True we should get rid of those uniforms and even wear civil clothes.

I am sure that will earn great awe of the armed forces from the nation.

Maybe we could be very nationalistic and lead the way by wearing loin cloth as the Father of the Nation wore! After all, what is clothes? Our population a large majority are deprived of them, so why not identify with the Nation?

Why travel in military vehicles. Go by private cycles. Good for the health and saves money for the government!

Why have accomodation? Live in open fields!

No runners also. They]officers can go and move from office to office to deliver the letters. Ideal utilising of time! And total efficiency too!

Guess what? They also have a radio operator who carries the radio set. The officer should carry that too and become a total centralised command and control structure and saving manpower and the exchequer. He could also carry the RL and the MMG, what stops him? After all, he does nothing else but plans and recconiters and gives some inane orders which his poor men have to obey!

He should be Rambo. If Rambo can do it, why can't the IA officer do it too?

I agree with the idea indirectly advocated my many!

Likewise, why have the police? The Local defence committe can do the same job.

Why have a DM, the panchayat can do the same thing he does!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Aug 2009 23:35

Aaah we now get into silly season with incoherent rants at anyone questioning.

SUre - get the powers to appoint me.

Considering the non performance of the last one how much worse can I be??

At least I would not get into a fight over the Sahayaks and get my a$$ handed back to me by the civil goons. [Note: Those devious civil service guys have even more cards up their sleeves on this topic which they have not unleashed - Think on that]

and I sure will not go to play golf at 2 pm

And since I have nothing to lose I will create drama on the 155 mm guns and draw enough attention on that.

Would accomplish more than the last one

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 04 Aug 2009 00:09

RayC wrote:
Katare wrote:
Runners were needed when there were no/few radios or other wireless communication equipments.
Maintaining officers uniform, personal equipment etc = nokar in India. Regardless of what officer/Brass assumes that means to them. Its hard for civilian folks to see a soldier doing chores of a domestic servant
Driving vehicle etc can be done by officer himself or drivers like every where else
Bodyguard is good but they should be called bodyguards not sahayaks
Other miscellaneous tasks = errand boy, get vegetable, cigarettes, sabun and shampoo

I can see need for a competent "personal assistant" for army officers who helps an officer in discharging his duties but current sahayak system is euphemism for personal "nokar/servant" paid for by govt and counted as soldier.

Separate two of them and it'll look honest. Either say they are servants or say they are official assistants that will only assist officer when he is officially on duty.

And if all them extra fancy uniforms are what is justification for employing these sahayak folks for hundreds of corers than we should get rid of those uniforms and get simpler ones. Reduce occasions when officers need to wear them and outsource ceremonial uniform maintenance works to service depots.

And yes we need to do the same to IAS/IPS and everyone else.
True we should get rid of those uniforms and even wear civil clothes.

I am sure that will earn great awe of the armed forces from the nation.

Maybe we could be very nationalistic and lead the way by wearing loin cloth as the Father of the Nation wore! After all, what is clothes? Our population a large majority are deprived of them, so why not identify with the Nation?

Why travel in military vehicles. Go by private cycles. Good for the health and saves money for the government!

Why have accomodation? Live in open fields!

No runners also. They]officers can go and move from office to office to deliver the letters. Ideal utilising of time! And total efficiency too!

Guess what? They also have a radio operator who carries the radio set. The officer should carry that too and become a total centralised command and control structure and saving manpower and the exchequer. He could also carry the RL and the MMG, what stops him? After all, he does nothing else but plans and recconiters and gives some inane orders which his poor men have to obey!

He should be Rambo. If Rambo can do it, why can't the IA officer do it too?

I agree with the idea indirectly advocated my many!

Likewise, why have the police? The Local defence committe can do the same job.

Why have a DM, the panchayat can do the same thing he does!

Ray Saab,

Have one more "sahayak" if you would but I don't want him to be counted/called as soldier. Sahayak/sevak/driver is OK as long as they are hired for that job. I don't like soilders of my country washing cloths of sahibs and buying sabji and gas tanki for memsahib and next day picking up INSAS and laying their life for the country.