Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Mar 2010 05:04

negi-ji

"Jihadi Patron" in what sense?

1. Musharraf is a Jihadi Patron. He attacked us in Kargil claimed that the Mujaheddin did it. He is rabidly anti India. But is he a "Jihadi" ? Nope.

Why?

Because he did rapid downhill skiing when unkil sent Amritraj. Helped US in Afghanistan, took over the country to enrich himself and protect his musharraf. Was willing to negotiate with India. In short a typical greedy b4stard with hatred for India who will use any and all means to spite us, BUT can be bribed, threatened and bought. Has only 2 loyalties. (a) to himself, (b) to the army as an institution as long as it does not clash with (a). Has no loyalty towards Islam, Pakistani government, their citizens or the constitution.

2. Contrast that with Hamid Gul and that guy who trained Mullah Omar. A dyed in the wool Jihadi till the end. Truely believe in Ghazwa-e-Hind. Think taliban & their philosophy is superior way of life. Have 400% loyalty to Islam, hate their own countrymen who show any kind of "flexibility" or "disloyalty".

Type 1 is good for business. Type 2 is bad for business. The business being as much money grab as possible -- which is what the top level of the Army is engaged in.

Pak army hierarchy is still a pyramid. Type 2 still stop at the mid level. Type 1 moves to the top level (Jernail, lootinent jernail, major jernail, crore commander, COAS).

Now where does LeT fit in?

I dont think it was an organization that was born in the cesspool of the Pak army. It is an organization that has been born, sustained, nourished and grown like flies in the "pakistan" that the Pakistan society is. Pak Army top level types simply use some of the LeT types to do some hits on Indian interests. Kind of how they used the Dawood gang.

Is Dawood gang an arm of Pak army? No
Did Dawood gang get born, nourished and raised in the cesspit of politics, smuggling, money, corrupt police of Mumbai? Yes
Did Pak army exploit Dawood gang? Yes
Is Pak army ideologically vested in Dawood gang? No

I do agree with kgoan-ji in the sense that, as opposed to Dawood gang, mid/low/medium levels of the Pak army is getting idealogically vested in LeT/JuD. I dont think that this is by design by the Pak army though.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Mar 2010 05:18

--deleted , too much for today--

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 04 Mar 2010 05:44

IMO, the distinction b/w jeehardy and jeehardy-patron is important.

The jihad-patrons would use soosai bummers but would never don soosai vests themselves, unlike the true jihadis.

The jihad-patrons could be amenable to assured-destruction kinda rationalism but the true jihadis cannot and will not be deterred, IMHO.

Having said that, its unclear how long the whiskey swillers will continue at the helm in the TSPA. Their kind is an endangered species. And compared to the true believers, they're afraid to fight and die. Besides, the whiskeyed types have options abroad. They'll flee rather than fight.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 04 Mar 2010 06:15

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_2

The Saudis, in their national interest, can get into a tighter hug with Pakistan’ archenemy without fearing as much as a raised eyebrow in Islamabad, because Saudi Arabia is a giver and Pakistan is a taker

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Mar 2010 06:28

Hari Seldon wrote: The jihad-patrons could be amenable to assured-destruction kinda rationalism but the true jihadis cannot and will not be deterred, IMHO.

Hari Seldon ji I would like to qualify this statement. The idea that a "jihadi will not be deterred" is exactly the idea that is being pushed by Pakistan, Pakdef and Al Qaeda. But the fact is good army training has the same (or better) effect. It would require an extraordinarily good set up to train and indoctrinate any human to be this way. Most disciplined armed forces - including the Indian army do it regularly so there is no point in giving Islamic extremism and its "jihadis" some kind of undeserved reputation for fearlessness.

In fact I believe two things. First, Pakistan army training along with Islamic indoctrination does result in some die hard types, but in the absence of a support set up like a conventional army the indoctrination can only go so far. Given a population of 1000 recruits what percentage of men can be indoctrinated to be deliberate soosais? Not all 1000. Perhaps 25 will reach that goal. But out of 1000 men you can create 500 or more disciplined fighters. That is why in the history of man soosai squads have only had a limited last ditch role played by the losing side and not the wlnners.

The second thing is that armies train men for mostly rationality. Jihadi soosai bums call for irrationality. The big gamble taken by indoctrination of irrationality is that if you can succeed in convincing x men to be soosai squads they might kill 25x people and scare 10,000x people and cause those 10,000 to be afraid and respectful of them by their aura of fearlessness. The joke in this deadly con job is that the actual fearless soosai guy is already dead. The patrons who trained him are left alive and were themselves scared to be soosais. So the 10,000x people need not be scared or respectful because those jihadi-patrons left alive (Pakarmy afsars, Hafiz sayeed, bin Laden) will be just as scared of dying and will bend to threats.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 04 Mar 2010 06:50

abhishek_sharma wrote:Pakistan loses $400m to ‘enhanced oversight’

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -330-rs-08

[/quote]
I dont think Pakis lose anything. They will just have to reapply and get it later. It seems that the pakis overbill by about 25-30%. So they will spend 300 mill. and claim 400 mill for all the takleef, and the US is fine with that. What the US is saying is that they will tip only 25 %, whereas the beggars want more.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Mar 2010 07:10

Hari Sir ji,
Jeehadis and Jeehad trainers do have families. Lets assume and assume onlee that the main players are not afraid to board the train to no where but real test is to put the fear of complete end of their blood line that no one of their near dear ones or extended family folks l get to feel the warmth of newday sun. Unkil sends the similar message with Blackwater and B Bawan jahajs. When filth is cleaned , it must be cleaned thoroughly and no stinky spot ought to be left to spread its stench . This is the only solution to end terrorism and make freedom win.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Mar 2010 07:22

CRamS wrote: and more importantly putting the international community (read US) on noitice that this was an attack on Indians by TSP.

Joke.

First MMS is described as a weak traitor who is sucking up to the US. Then it is asked why this weak US sucking traitor is not "putting the International community" on notice.

Then is is clarified that "International community"=USA

So the very question that salutes the US as being the international community is being used to ask why a weak US loving traitor does not stand up to the leader of the world (internatonal commnity=US).

In my Macaulayite Christian school there used to be a Christian hymn that went

O magnify the lord with me
with me exalt his name

in other words "magnify the glory of the USA by comparing with the MMS's smallness and inconsequentiality. How can aperson of the caliber of a meek Sikh take on the entire International community (USA)?

The Pakistan discussion thread is being used as as rhetorical exercise to point out how weak India is vis a vis the US,and how bad its leadership is. But someone did ask a relevant question - I will re word that question here since this thread is straying right back into that area

It cannot be shown by anyone (supporter or opponent of the current goverment and the MMS/Catholic Italian lady Sonia cabal) that
1) MMS is strong
2) MMS has India's interests at heart
3) MMS is not a traitor
4) MMS is not selling out to the US
5) MMS has any popular support

Given the inalienable truth of the above statements why not "deal with it?"

I recall that it was the demand for "dealing with it" that led to a chorus of repeat complaints that I have summed up above.

The point to note is that even if India elects/appoints a Schwarzenegger clone tough talking leader it is not going to make a whit of a difference to the intentions and power of the US. I have it from reliable sources that the US does things in its interest and Indians need to deal with it. Having dealt with it the only solution I can see is to undermine the US eventually. Till then we must suck up to the US and bandwagon with them and hope they throw us scraps and not bark at them ineffectively. No point bleating useless complaints about things that will not change.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Mar 2010 07:41

If LET = Pakistani society, as seems increasingly more plausible, there are a few things India should do.

If the LET becomes more powerful, Pakistan has well and truly had it.

The TTP is the pashtuns revolting against the pakjabis and the pakjabi army. The LET is the poor pakjabi. Already the LET is more vocal and is taking over the role of threatening India with reprisals. Note that this is the role that the Pak fauj used to do.

If the Jihadis beat the pak fauj in histrionics, the public sympathy will staunchly shift from the fauj to the jihadis. Now if the jihadis get armed enough, they'll try and usurp power in pakistan. This is natural and now increasingly inevitable.

India can help in the process by:
1. Defeating the Jihadis. My pet theory is that if the Jihadis can't kill the Kafir, they'll turn inwards and kill munafiqs instead.
2. Strengthning the jihadis at home and encouraging them to try and usurp power in pakistan.

But the question is, is GoI willing to take recourse to this route. It is risky as hell. But the tamasha within pakistan will be great to watch for a while. But even otherwise, even if India does not help speed up that process, this is inevitably going to happen in the future.

The Pak fauji generals are smug in the belief that they can control the Jihadis at any time. Slowly but surely the Jihadis are developing a mind of their own. When push comes to shove, the pak fauj will not be able to control a large enough movement all across sindh and punjab. A massive civil war will erupt.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 04 Mar 2010 08:36

The Pak fauji generals are smug in the belief that they can control the Jihadis at any time. Slowly but surely the Jihadis are developing a mind of their own.

True.

The last time the jeehardies overplayed their hand thinking they're strong enough, Lalmasjid happened.

The next time, the whiskeyed class maynot get its way like last time. I have no doubt the PA can't do a lalmasjid on muridke even if they oh-so-badly wanted to.

Then, its endgame.

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Mar 2010 08:52

X Posted. From CNN.

Stephen Tanner, author of “Afghanistan: A Military History from Alexander the Great to the War against the Taliban." says that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s intelligence agency the Inter-Services Intelligence or ISI not only knows where Osama Bin Laden is located but is also protecting him:

March 3rd, 2010

Whatever happened to bin Laden? ……………………….

Tanner says the ISI, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence Agency, knows where bin Laden is hiding, but is not ready to say.

“We got to make a deal with Pakistan because I’m convinced that he’s [bin Laden] protected by the ISI,” Tanner says.

Tanner says that rogue elements within the ISI - if not the Pakistani government – may be using bin Laden as a “trump card” to exert leverage over the United States. Tanner says that Pakistani leaders are concerned that the U.S. will draw closer to India, Pakistan’s chief rival.

Flashing the bin Laden trump card will insure that the U.S. will continue to send aid to Pakistan because it considers it a bulwark against radical Islam, Tanner says. Without the bin Laden trump card, though, Pakistan would be in danger of being abandoned by the U.S., Tanner says.

“I just think it’s impossible after all this time to not know where he is. The ISI knows what’s going on in its own country,” Tanner says. “We’re talking about a 6-foot-4-inch Arab with a coterie of bodyguards.” ………………..

From here:

CNN

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Mar 2010 09:26

One perception of LeT:

abhishek_sharma wrote:LeT in Perspective

http://www.newamerica.net/sites/newamer ... tankel.pdf

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Mar 2010 09:39

Pakistani Embodies a Policy Puzzle

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/04/world ... 4imam.html

With his white turban, untrimmed beard and worn army jacket, the man known uniformly here by his nom de guerre, Col. Imam, is a particular Pakistani enigma.

A United States-trained former colonel in Pakistan’s spy agency, he spent 20 years running insurgents in and out of Afghanistan, first to fight the Soviet Army, and later to support the Taliban, as Pakistani allies, in their push to conquer Afghanistan in the 1990s.

Today those Taliban forces are battling his onetime mentor, the United States, and Western officials say Colonel Imam has continued to train, recruit and finance the insurgents. Along with a number of other retired Pakistani intelligence officials, they say, he has helped the Taliban stage a remarkable comeback since 2006.

...

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 04 Mar 2010 10:21

CRamS wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote: Article in The Hindu on Holbrooke's comment

India upset with Holbrooke view on Kabul attack
http://www.hindu.com/2010/03/04/stories ... 900100.htm
India TSP equal equal onlee

“I understand why everyone in Pakistan and everyone in India always focuses on the other. But please, let's not draw a conclusion for which there's no proof.”

It's worse than equal-equal. It's an indication that the US is now willing to turn a blind eye to LeT/Haqqani terrorist ops against Indian interests in Afghanistan conducted at TSP's behest.

The glossed over NPR report where only "one Italian" and no Indians were mentioned as victims of this attack, was an earlier indication of the same. NPR, for all it's pretensions of "independent viewpoint" has had a GOTUS "minder" overseeing their reportage since the lead up to the Iraq war.

This is a substantial reversal in GOTUS policy from the time our Kabul embassy was hit. On that occasion, the GOTUS clearly ascribed blame for an attack on Indian interests to the Haqqani group. Today the Afghan security services' assertion that this attack was also perpetrated by Pakistan against Indian interests is flatly contradicted by Assholbrooke... who pretends that such allegations are only coming from Pakistan obsessed Indians.

Clearly the "sea change" has been in US policy towards TSP following the Baradar arrest... not the other way round. I wonder if whitewashing the role of the Haqqanis as an ISI proxy in this attack, is a sign that Obama is seriously considering taking up the TSPA's offer to mediate with the Haqqanis as their successor of choice In Kabul.

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 04 Mar 2010 10:46

Apologies if already discussed,

US has India over the barrel
GP

South Block fails to realise that led by Gen Kayani, Pakistan’s ruling military establishment has persuaded itself that it wields huge leverage with the Obama Administration, which has set a date for commencement of troops’ withdrawal from Afghanistan and desperately needs Pakistan’s cooperation for a face-saving exit. New Delhi is perceived by the GHQ in Rawalpindi to lack any clear or consistent policy and appears ever-ready to meekly bend to American diktats. The Government of India has only itself to blame for allowing this impression to gain ground internationally and domestically. The decision to suddenly change direction and agree to talks between Foreign Secretaries even before the Home Minister paid a scheduled visit to Islamabad has only strengthened this impression. Unless the Union Cabinet devises a clear policy of imposing high costs for Pakistani support to terrorism against India and Indian assets abroad, we will be perceived as a nation incapable of defending our vital interests.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Mar 2010 11:02

shiv:

Please, lets get real here. Has MMS made any statement, after Pune attack and after Kabul attack? As a PM of India, when his people are slaugheterd, does it not behoove him to a) express sympathy for his compatriots, and b) Hold TSP resposible for the consumption of the world. What f$%^&ing Chankyan motive is there to explain his abject silence? And then when you juxtapose this with his "willing to walk the extra mile with TSP" what does it tell you about him? Abd its not as if he has been passive? Remember him loosing sleep?

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 04 Mar 2010 11:12

The chankian explanation would be "India is playing its role in US's war in Afghanistan" or something like that. None other KS said India should keep talking to Pakistan inspite of terror attacks. Yesterday's KS article shows he is still hoping that somehow US will take care of Pakistan.

GP has correctly stated what GHQ and others would think of India and its relation with US.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Mar 2010 11:20

CRamS wrote:shiv:

Please, lets get real here. Has MMS made any statement, after Pune attack and after Kabul attack? As a PM of India, when his people are slaugheterd, does it not behoove him to a) express sympathy for his compatriots, and b) Hold TSP resposible for the consumption of the world. What f$%^&ing Chankyan motive is there to explain his abject silence? And then when you juxtapose this with his "willing to walk the extra mile with TSP" what does it tell you about him? Abd its not as if he has been passive? Remember him loosing sleep?

He is not Chanakian
He is a weak traitor
He has been appointed and not elected
He is not about to resign

Given these incontrovertible and unavoidable facts how can you or anyone expect him to do what you know is right? You are banging your head against a brick wall. No?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Mar 2010 11:50

The reason why the US "has India over a barrel",if true, is that we have a EDITED as PM,whose great vision for India is to be the White House butler.Beyoind that a personal Nobel Peace Prize for waging "peace in our time" with Pak,appears to be his secret personal ambition.He has all the qualifications for it,being a servile lackey of Uncle Sam,willing to "go the extra mile" for American interests,NOT India's.

Coupled with this is the grim fact that in Pak,the uniformed tribe and the jihadi non-uniformed ,non-state actors are but two sides of the same coin.The many media talk shows where both Indian and Paki senior figures in the military,foriegn service and civil service have appeared only reinforce the view that the TSP is under the malignant control of rabid anti-Indian elements and that the so-called "moderates" ,disappearing by the day,are in no position to restore the order of balance.Yes,it is a fact that terrorism has afflicited Pakistan like the plague,but that plague has its origins and birth in Pakistan itself.One Paki joker said that it is common for Pakis to carry Kalashnikov's (just as we carry cell-phones?!!!),no big deal,it's part of Paki "culture".He however had no answer to the next question as to why the banned outfits whose HQs were openly functioning could print and spew hatred of India in their publications and speeches.

Unfortunately,our dearly beloved PM is waving the "white flag" in desperation as his ambitions mentioned earlier in the post are at risk with the cancerous growth of anti-Indianism in Pak and the clarion cries of the jehadis to execute even more Mumbais.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Mar 2010 12:04

Benazir’s assassination probe

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... robe-hs-05

Investigations into murder of Benazir Bhutto take a new turn as Pakistani officials said they are searching for four military personnel who had disappeared just before the assassination of the former prime minister.

Interior ministry officials told DawnNews that the missing soldiers were retired army personnel who were among the eight army soldiers related to the main accused and a proclaimed offender in the case, Ibad Ur Rehman.

The interior ministry officials disclosed that investigators are facing difficulties in determining the exact status of these soldiers and so far no record had been provided. The four other soldiers are still serving the army.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 04 Mar 2010 12:14

Absolutly no shortage of armchair Guru's on BR , dictating foreign policy measures wrt to TSP and maligning the PM by name calling but when it comes to concrete and workable solution regarding TSP, no one has a clue barring very few exceptions on BR.

The question to ask the self proclaimed foreign policy experts is "If not this way then which way". 170 million+ rabid dogs live next door and are full of hot air and jihadi sentiment against India, furthur fuel is added owing to India's economic, diplomatic and defence growth.

the best that I can hope from our polity is to treat TSP as an out and out security threat and nothing more (albeit a big one) but even still we cannot hope to 100% dis-engage from them, even if it is to show the world that we're talking and want peace (if only for the sheer sake of it).

What do the jingos expect GoI to do, the jihadi threat is impossible to neutralize 100% and we don't want a nuclear war simply because we have too much to loose, those basters across the border have absolutly nothing to loose, they would think of themselves as having embraced "shahadat" if they perished in pursuit of India's destruction as thats their sole purpose (as sridhar sir pointed out on many occasions).

Our Foreign policy perspective needs to broaden and so does the vision of the people , we don't have to look to be doing something about TSP - they will take care of themselves while we overun them in good time.

Our one and only objective regarding TSP should be how to stop the terror attacks.

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 04 Mar 2010 12:22

I was thinking what would the PM do to satisfy the jingo's heart. And I came to the conclusion that if he were to take covert actions against the Pakistanis that have some visible results - such as, targeted assassination of military officers, and general mayhem in that country - that would satisfy most of the jingoistic crowd, including me! Then I recalled that something like this was already happening just a few weeks back! Brigadiers were getting killed mysteriously. ISI headquarters were being attacked. Crowded market places were being blow up. And so on and so forth. All we have to do is go back to that situation.

But it stopped suddenly! The explanation given by some senior BRFite (Ramanna?) was that it stopped, because the offensive against the TTP by the Pakistani army stopped. So all we need to go back to the delightful situation would be to have the Pakistani army resume the offensives again. But then the Pakistanis complain that the Big, Bad India is stopping the Pakistanis from doing this. So, how do you convince the world that we are not a threat, and the Pakistanis can resume their operations (and the taliban their activities against the Pakistanis)?

RamaP · Post by **RamaP** » 04 Mar 2010 12:26

So Holbrooke janab has blatantly told GoI to overlook the carnage that happened in Kabul. Amrikhan is showing its true colors by caring zilch about the interests of its "natural ally" aka India. All that uncle cares about is its own interests. State department must be in a jubilant mood now that some Mullahs of QS are under TSP's custody. To summarize, TSP-Uncle group is making a fool of India and our leadership has apparently become oblivious about India's interests. The results of the so called chanakian styled covert action are in front of us. There was a time when there were IED mubaraks in TSP (courtesy TTP) almost everyday. Now, the TTP is no longer a force to reckon with.TSP is looking at a victory in Afghanistan, Kashmir has started to boil once again and terrorism has started yet again in urban India. Meanwhile, media has started its own psy-ops to convince the Indian public about the peaceful nature of TSP.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Mar 2010 12:38

Five Pakistani workers shot dead in Afghanistan

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -afg-qs-01

KANDAHAR: Five Pakistani construction workers have been shot dead in an ambush in southern Afghanistan, officials said Thursday.

Another Pakistani who was wounded in the ambush is in hospital, the senior doctor at the Mirwais hospital in Kandahar city told AFP.

The workers were ambushed on their way to work, according to the governor of Kandahar's Panjwayi district, Shah Baran.

“The workers were on their way to Panjwayi district, where they work on a road construction project, when they were ambushed and these workers were killed,” Baran said.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Mar 2010 12:51

Holbrooke has clearly shown where the US's interests lie and whom they prefer to fornicate with.India must not behave like a whore trying to compete with the Pakis out of business on the sub-continent street! In any case the Yanqui's like Holbrooke have clearly sided with their favourite regional rent-boy and have shown their utter disrespect vfor precious Indian lives.What matters to them in Af-Pak is that US lives are spared and that the Pakis can have a field day killing Indians! With duplicitous pals like the US,India MUST rethink its entire foreign policy with respect to Af-Pak in particular and consult and plan with like minded nations like Russia and the Central Asian states who like India are legitimate stakeholders not outside interlopers like the US and NATO.But can that be achieved with a servile PM like MMS in charge?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 04 Mar 2010 13:33

Pakistani Hijras

The term refers to a born eunuch or hermaphrodite, a group seen as marginally acceptable because their birth was God's will. But many others even less well-regarded in society -- homosexuals, transvestites, bisexuals and transsexuals -- also claim hijra status.....

Many in this conservative society believe hijra have a direct line to God, a trade-off for their inability to procreate. So even as society has ostracized them, it's also paid them amply, fearful of their curses, taunts and, in extreme cases, public display of genitalia at celebratory events......

That's forced more hijra into sex work. Noor, initially reluctant to discuss it, eventually acknowledged that she's a prostitute, "but only if I like the client." She said she makes $3 to $5 per visit......

two hijra were falsely arrested by police, then taken to a dorm for off-duty officers where they were sexually abused by a dozen of them....

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 04 Mar 2010 13:45

Praveen swami tweet:
http://twitter.com/praveenswami

The Bomb for Beginners: A DIY Guide to Going Nuclear | http://bit.ly/94UK1h

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Mar 2010 13:47

[quote="abhishek_sharma"]Pakistani Embodies a Policy Puzzle

col imam == rogue ISI == plausible deniability
for the whiskey jernail, this rogue trooper theory is a very convenient tool to hoodwink unkil
the real question is, how gullible is unkil really?

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 04 Mar 2010 13:54

^^ well said, Philip.
By appointing Holebrooke, US is playing a double game. Officially, US cannot deny India's significance in the region wrt Afghanistan and dont want to loose India as an democratic ally because if they do so, their final ally in the region will be Arab states and the next ally will be only in Singapore or Taiwan and they will miss any support in Indian Ocean. Blatant support of US-Foreign office to Pakistan will seriously harm their future interests in India. So Hillary takes care of business involving India and mostly shoots out something which pacifies India periodically. While holbrooke guy is there to support pakis who do not feel betrayed again by amirkhans because if amirkhans cut loose second time in the region forgetting pakistan, they will surely regret losing pakistan to china and all taliban dogs will hound them in afghanistan who are in paki control. AK's is also sensing a fact that India will eventually more stronger and assertive in the region as China and they want to keep balance in the region by == policy. China = India, India = Pakistan. As discussed number of times by experts here, AK's are strongly favouring inclusion of Talibans and put an end of costly war bleeding AK both physically and economically. It is turning into next vietnam and if they cant do it in next 5 years, I am sure vietnam humiliation will repeat itself in Afghanistan.

India should understand this fact that "Barack Husein Obama" is not an Indian friend, we are just partners of convenience, for AK, developing relations with India helps do their non-value adding back office works and also keep Russia out of Indian Ocean region and also a sheild again Chinese influence in the region. India should seriously think about developing itself in a way that France has developed themselves, whih makes them Independent thinkers and chart its own path. I seriously urge GoI to stop looking world from the eyes of US and play the same equal - equal game when it comes to supporting Iran, supporting Russia in Chechnya and other issues.

DevS · Post by **DevS** » 04 Mar 2010 15:04

@CRamS : "The problem India has with TSP is no longer about TSP being wrong, or any other legal issue. TSP openly claims that you give us what we want or we bleed you with our "non state actors".

Got to agree with you sir but it is frustating why India has still not come round to fully exploiting the coercive potential of the IWT vis a vis Pakistan.

@shiv : "A final comment - I think the person who asked about the 1971 war above stated that 45,000 of those were Paki armed forces POWs. Where the fck was that information pulled out of? It is a Pakistani claim that
1) All rapes in Bangladesh were by Indians
2) Most Paki POWs were civilians."

Sir, I've mentioned 45000 Paki army soldiers not 45000 Paki armed forces.Wikipedia puts the figures at 79,700 Pakistan Army soldiers and paramilitary personnel which means around 30,000 POWs were paramilitary/police etc.

@Gerard : "Only armed forces members can be POWs. Civilians can be interned but they are not POWs."
Sir, the Paki stamp you've shown says 90,000 POWs.So, the Pakis themselves confirming that the 90,000 POWs were all in fact armed force members.

While at it, i have another question for the gurus :

Why can't India take the stand that by signing the IWT with India, Pakistan has in fact agreed that Kashmir ( or at least the part of it through which the rivers of the Indus system flow before entering POK/Pakistan ) is a part of India.If Pakistan does not believe that this part of Kashmir is not a part of India, then why the hell did it sign the IWT with India and why the hell does it not withdraw from the IWT?

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 04 Mar 2010 15:22

From Afghanistan With Love

5 Pakistani road workers shot dead in Afghanistan.

KANDAHAR — An Afghan official says five Pakistani road construction workers have been shot dead in the southern city of Kandahar.

The city’s deputy police chief, Mohammad Shah Faroqi, says the workers were traveling to their construction site when two gunmen on motorbikes opened fire on their minivan Thursday morning. Five of the laborers died and one was wounded.

The Pakistanis work for Saita Construction Co., a Japanese joint-venture with a contract to repair the road from Kandahar to Punjwai district.

Taliban insurgents dominate much of southern Afghanistan and often attack aid projects launched by the government and NATO forces.

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Mar 2010 15:33

^^^ The number of Pakistani construction workers killed in Kandahar has climbed.

Death that visited Indian’s in Kabul on Feb 26th came pretty quickly calling on Pakistani construction workers in Kandahar:

Gunmen kill 7 Pakistanis in Afghanistan

Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:14:53 GMT

Unknown armed men have killed seven Pakistani workers and wounded another in Afghanistan's southern city of Kandahar, according to police.

A police official told Press TV that the attack occurred early Thursday.

Two gunmen on a motorcycle opened fire on a group of Pakistani construction workers waiting for transport.

No group has yet claimed responsibility for the attack.

Attacks on foreign civilians in Afghanistan have increased over the past year.

Last week, the Taliban targeted two guest houses used by Indians and a shopping center frequented by foreigners in central Kabul.

Nine Indians were killed as well as an Italian diplomat and a French film maker. ………………….

Press TV, Iran

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Mar 2010 16:12

DevS wrote:Why can't India take the stand that by signing the IWT with India, Pakistan has in fact agreed that Kashmir ( or at least the part of it through which the rivers of the Indus system flow before entering POK/Pakistan ) is a part of India.If Pakistan does not believe that this part of Kashmir is not a part of India, then why the hell did it sign the IWT with India and why the hell does it not withdraw from the IWT?

DevS, by the same token, do we concede the PoK to Pakistan ? If so, then why is there a unanimous resolution in our Parliament that the entire J&K belongs to us and no government can barter it away ?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 04 Mar 2010 16:33

DevS wrote:Why can't India take the stand that by signing the IWT with India, Pakistan has in fact agreed that Kashmir ( or at least the part of it through which the rivers of the Indus system flow before entering POK/Pakistan ) is a part of India

That would be in violation of Article XI.1b of the Indus Waters Treaty

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 04 Mar 2010 16:37

US agrees to supply Pakistan with jets and bomb kits for raids on tribal regions

The United States is to deliver a thousand laser-guided bomb kits to Pakistan this month. The deal, which also includes the delivery of 18 new F16 fighter jets and a dozen surveillance drones later in the year, is an apparent pay-off for greater co-operation against al-Qaeda and the Taleban.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 04 Mar 2010 17:36

Just to rattle the cage, India should declare Holbrooke is persona non grata in India and India should publicly announce that no India personnnel will work with Holbrooke in any capacity anywhere. That would put him in his corner and perhaps force Obama to find a way out of this embarassment.

On the weapons supply......I am terribly surprised why India is not whinning like hell. India should. These laser guided bombs are not going to hit Talib rebels but would be used to target strategic Indin assets in the case of a war. Indian silence is very disturbing.

skaranam · Post by **skaranam** » 04 Mar 2010 17:46

Mr. Holbrooke said: “I don't accept the fact that this was an attack on an Indian facility… There were foreigners, non-Indian foreigners hurt. It was a soft target. Let's not jump to conclusions.”

Aren't Indians foreigners in Afghanistan?

The fact is we do not protect our installations properly. Seeing the report on Headlines Today, we should have learned this from previous attacks. We know that we are being targeted. India should focus on keeping its assets secure (manpower or installation) with proper barricades and other measures. We learned the lesson with embassy bombing (now it is more secure). We need to do more...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Mar 2010 17:47

asprinzl wrote:These laser guided bombs are not going to hit Talib rebels but would be used to target strategic Indin assets in the case of a war. Indian silence is very disturbing.

If we look at the weapons supplied to Pakistan since circa 2002, like frigates, P3-Cs, AMRAAMs, armour piercing TOW missiles, Harpoons etc. the US intention is obvious. It wants to maintain the balance in conventional forces between us and the Pakistanis. We should not seek US weapons in our armoury. They are already unreliable suppliers anyway.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 04 Mar 2010 18:16

Very true and it's not like we lack options. Russia, Israel, France and possibly rest of Eurozone.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 04 Mar 2010 18:25

http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/mar/ ... rinity.htm

To deem Pakistan as a failed state is a generous overstatement. It does not qualify as a state at all, period. A state must have a degree of accountability. A state must have a functioning hierarchy. Pakistan has neither. At the helm is a dysfunctional government with little jurisdiction over its geographical domain or its subjects.

Pakistan remains a conglomerate of anti-India interests masquerading as a nation and this is not going to change in the near future. The earlier this dawns on India the better.

Though not from a very respectable website, one of the most apt descriptions I have read in recent times of our beloved neighbour.