Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Apr 2010 06:11

Pakistan is a complicated country, needs US support: Holbrooke

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 833982.cms

Noting that Pakistan is a complicated country, which faces huge economic, energy and water shortage, a top Obama Administration official has said that the country needs the US' support.

In a session 'Conversations with America', Special US Representative for Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke also said the Taliban continue to have sanctuaries in Pakistan and continue to cross over the border for attacks inside Afghanistan.

"Pakistan is a complicated country that faces huge economic, energy and water problems. It has a long-standing set of concerns vis-a-vis its giant nature (sic) to the east, which have to be dealt with, and it faces an insurgency in the west, which is very dangerous both to them and to the US because it's from that area, in western part of the country, that attacks are launched against American and NATO troops," Holbrooke said yesterday.

"In this overall context, the Pakistanis are dealing with their problems. But it needs our support," Holbrooke said at a session 'Conversations with America', the first in a series of live video discussions regarding Department of State and US foreign policy.

...

Holbrooke said the US is working hard with the IMF, to make sure that the standby agreements are extended.

"We are working with the Pakistani leadership on every one of the economic water and energy issues that we can. This is a vast undertaking. And because we have worldwide commitments, we, the United States, cannot do it all alone."

However, he appreciated the international community to have come forward to help Pakistan.

"We went to Tokyo last April and had a major conference which raised USD 5-1/2 billion of commitments. They haven't all arrived yet, but they're still in the process of arriving. And we want to do more than that for Pakistan," Holbrooke said.

...

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 20 Apr 2010 06:25

^^^ I think for our Paki lurkers and for their ehh en dee we should quote some excerpts from the above link: (Abhishek, I hope you don't mind)

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Monday assured that the trial against the accused in Mumbai attacks would conclude soon and expressed confidence that they would be convicted. {No longer if "we get credible evidence"}

“The trial is on fast track and the accused have exhausted all their rights to get bail and get the FIRs cancelled. We expect the trial will be concluded in the coming months. My friends from India must realise that once the battle goes to court, it no longer remains in the control of the prosecution, administration or the government. The kind of credible evidence we have put forward, we will get conviction and that is what we want,” Interior Minister Rehman Malik told a delegation of visiting journalists here. { guess those evidence were not just 'fiction' any more?}

.....

Pakistan had also sought all the statements made by the lone surviving gunman Ajmal ‘Kasab' to make the case foolproof against one of the accused and Lashkar-e-Taiba leader, Zaki ur Rehman Lakhvi. { No longer - retracted statement in India - not valid in out courts}

Mr. Malik offered to visit India to meet his counterpart P. Chidambaram to discuss further anti-terrorism measures. He hoped that an opportunity for interaction would arise during the meeting of SAARC Home Ministers which was postponed but could now be held here in June.

The Minister said investigators had prepared the response to the two dossiers submitted by India during the meeting of Foreign Secretaries in New Delhi in February. These would be formally submitted to New Delhi in the coming weeks. { So guess they did read those "work of fiction" }

Instead of a third country persuading the two countries to hold talks, Mr. Malik wanted both countries to resume wide-ranging talks. Even if the Indian leadership was wary of reopening dialogue, Pakistan would continue with the trial of the Mumbai attacks accused and continue with efforts to nab more than 15 who had been declared proclaimed offenders. { Bachha logo - Tali bajao!}

Asked about the slow pace of the trial initially, Mr. Malik clarified that “once upon a time” the evidence was not sufficient. But with the combination of the information received from India and the evidence developed in Pakistan, “we now have credible information.”

Mr. Malik was hopeful that ‘Kasab' would be handed over to Pakistan after his trial was completed in India. { right after hanging, I preseume} Pakistan was also hoping for India to meet its request for full information on the Samjhauta Express blast. “The allegations against the ISI for the Samjhauta Express blasts have not been good for our image. May be the Research and Analysis Wing or a non-state actor acted on its own.” { Okay once a Paki -- can not act like a decent statesman for long }

“Let us be friends and brothers. Let us sort out security issues once and for all. This is essential to ensure peace and stability in Iran, Pakistan and India,” he said

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 20 Apr 2010 06:32

Who knows, may be this has something to do with Mr. Malik's sudden new tune..
Rehman Malik had significant role in Bhutto's security management: Report

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 20 Apr 2010 06:58

^^^^

Naaah. His shady role in BB getting bumped off is well known. He even stars in the UN report. Methinks this is pre Bhutan SAARC summit nautanki. Pakis will get cured once that is over. Expect a few to be put in house arrest and a Judge making some stern statements. All part of the tamasha.

And oh, we did hand over the rest of the Mumbai accused in a box. Pakistan refused to take them

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Apr 2010 07:17

abhishek_sharma wrote:Pakistan: trial of Mumbai attack accused is on fast track

On fast track, eh ? See here for a chronology of court drama in Pakistan

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Apr 2010 07:34

Apology if this IED has been already heard by the Jirga.
At least 25 killed, over 40 injured in Qissa Khawani suicide blast
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... zaar-balst

Twenty-five persons died while forty others injured in suicide blast in Qissa-Khwani Bazar during a protest rally of Jamat Islami near Shaheeda Chowk here on Monday. According to details a protest rally was arranged under aegis of Jamat Islami against mounting load shedding in the provincial capital, when a suicide attacker exploded himself entering in the protesting people. As a result twenty-Five persons died on the spot including DSP city Gulfat Hussain and District Nazim Jamat Islami Haji Muhammad Dost.
SSP city Imran Kishwer talking to media informed that the blast was suicidal and intensity of the blast was so massive that it smashed windowpanes of nearby buildings adding that emergency has been imposed in Lady-Reading Hospital and police has been carrying search operation in nearby areas to avert any further untoward incident in the city. Provincial General secretary of Jamat Islami Shabbir Ahmed has also reported to be injured in the suicide blast. AIG bomb-disposal squad Shafqat Malik also informed that approximately 6to 7 explosive material was utilized in the suicide blast adding that the law enforcement agencies had cordoned off the area after the blast. Provincial Information Minister Iftikhar Muhammad talking to media termed the incident regrettable said that such cowardice incidents of the militants couldn't demoralize the

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Apr 2010 07:42

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=235097
Talks with no solutions
Mareej Maleeha Lodhi

On the water issue, a new pattern seems to have emerged in the past month of Indian officials seeking to portray the water issue as devoid of substance, implying therefore that there was nothing to settle. In a series of comments to foreign and Indian papers, unnamed Indian officials have been cited as saying that Pakistan's position on the Indus waters issue was a "political gimmick…. designed to place yet one more agenda item in (an) already complex relationship". Elsewhere Indian officials accused Pakistan of creating a "frenzy" while dismissing the issue as a Pakistani effort to create an "Indian bogey" and divert the blame for water shortages whose causes lay within Pakistan. This is a far cry from a problem-solving approach when one side declines to even acknowledge the existence of a dispute.As for the Indian foreign secretary's statements, at one public forum in Washington, she devoted a good part of her speech on Indo-US relations to Pakistan's 'conduct'. Among the pronouncements she made – unseemly in a third country – was that Pakistan used terrorism as a policy tool. India she said should not be expected to resume full-scale talks until Pakistan is able to "cease its encouragement of terrorist groups that were targeting India". She also claimed that Pakistan had conveyed to India that it was not in a position to guarantee that it could control terrorism.

( just like tackling :Let is not paki priority, talking water etc cant be Indian priority especially when we know its nothing but typical paki lie/takkiya)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Apr 2010 08:01

Prem wrote:http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=235097
Talks with no solutions
Mareej Maleeha Lodhi

She also claimed that Pakistan had conveyed to India that it was not in a position to guarantee that it could control terrorism.

Sad Sad Saaaaaaad. Such similar neighbors. We should be brothers.

India too will have to convey to Pakistan that it is not in a a position to guarantee that it can meet Pakistan's water requirements

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Apr 2010 08:06

The ROPE around the Neck no one want to mention!!
Children of rape claiming chastity,Qadoos trying to proove their sweentness like tarbooz.

An intolerant nation

We are reaping the harvest of the seeds of hatred sown in the seventies and eighties. Pakistan is becoming an increasingly intolerant nation where religious and sectarian minorities live in fear and are awarded little or no protection by the state. Difference is unacceptable to the obscurantists who want everyone to toe their line. And if that takes intimidation, torture or even murder, then so be it, for no option is unavailable to the self-righteous who believe that they alone have seen the light.
This mindset is not limited to the Taliban who kill in the name of religion. There is no shortage in Pakistan of sectarian and other militant outfits that feel justified in murdering Shias, Christians and Ahmadis — or indeed anyone who doesn’t share their views. Most of these organisations have their genesis in the Zia era, a dark chapter in the country’s history which is responsible for rending our social fabric and fanning the flames of intolerance.Take the case of Friday’s bloody events in Quetta. First the son of a prominent Shia leader was shot dead outside a bank. And when his body was taken to hospital, a suicide bomber blew himself up outside the emergency ward. Responsibility for the deadly attack was taken by the banned Lashkar-i-Jhangvi, an offshoot of the Sipah-i-Sahaba Pakistan.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... nation-940

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Apr 2010 08:12

All is not yet well in the Paki-Amreeki search for modus-vivendi:

Militants blow up Nato tankers in Khyber http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... hway-zj-06

NATO soldier killed, several wounded in Afghanistan http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 56352.html

Bombs at market, school kill 24 in Pakistan http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... wVEPxqfOQQ

A look at some of the activity presently going on:

"India's role has been a great success. The US is looking for additional role for India in Afghanistan. It may include civil services and anti-corruption projects," Roemer told reporters here.

"India's role in Afghanistan is very critical. President Barack Obama has personally said this to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and conveyed gratitude for the contribution," he said, adding that out of three components of international presence in Afghanistan -- defence, diplomatic and development -- India was involved in two of them.

However, since Obama announced his departure date from Afghanistan, there has been a mad scramble within Pakistan to secure a veto for itself in the ultimate reconciliation arrangement inside Afghanistan. The US too has appeared to be giving in to the Pakistani line, and its been left to India to say that leaving a Taliban-friendly dispensation in Afghanistan would be like returning to a pre-9/11 state. During his conversation with Obama, the PM had told him that India would not give up its interests in Afghanistan, which were crucial for its security, and that it was there to ensure that Afghanistan makes the slow but sure transition to a more moderate state.

The US has already alienated Afghan President Hamid Karzai which India feels is counter-productive to what the US really wants to achieve there. India believes that making an enemy of Karzai is probably the worst way of trying to get anything done in Afghanistan, because it would send Karzai to the arms of interests that are inimical to the US, as Karzai looks to cut deals to ensure his survival. It's not clear whether India has any effect on US thinking but after months of public bickering, the Obama administration is making the first moves to re-engage Karzai.

Of course, this is not going to go down well in Pakistan and Islamabad can be expected to make many more strenuous protests against Indian presence.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 833351.cms

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Apr 2010 08:53

The source, who is constantly consulted by Singh on the need for a thaw with Pakistan — which Singh is convinced about — said it would be stupid to argue that India would not talk to Pakistan come what may unless India’s dictates were accepted in toto by Islamabad.

India’s new position is that the arrest of Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) founder Hafiz Saeed is not central to the continuation of Indo-Pakistan talks. “Even if Hafiz Saeed is removed from the world, that will not be the solution to the problem” of cross-border terrorism, the source said.

What India needs to be convinced is that there is “some will” on the other side to crack down on terrorism against India in the same way that General Pervez Musharraf gave assurances about addressing Indian concerns and followed up on those assurances.

Some guru kindly explain the Chankianness behind the latest MMS fad...

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Apr 2010 09:01

sum wrote:
The source, who is constantly consulted by Singh on the need for a thaw with Pakistan — which Singh is convinced about — said it would be stupid to argue that India would not talk to Pakistan come what may unless India’s dictates were accepted in toto by Islamabad.

India’s new position is that the arrest of Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) founder Hafiz Saeed is not central to the continuation of Indo-Pakistan talks. “Even if Hafiz Saeed is removed from the world, that will not be the solution to the problem” of cross-border terrorism, the source said.

What India needs to be convinced is that there is “some will” on the other side to crack down on terrorism against India in the same way that General Pervez Musharraf gave assurances about addressing Indian concerns and followed up on those assurances.
Some guru kindly explain the Chankianness behind the latest MMS fad...

Well, Musharraf was responsible for Kargil but later he essentially agreed to an LoC==IB deal.

Although dealing with the Paks is a distasteful exercise, IMHO, there is no harm in talking, provided that there is no slackening on counter-terror measures, and that nothing is given away.

Some of the saner Paks are beginning to realize that they are in deep shit. But H&D is more important than anything else. If they want a face-saving way to back-out of their madness, then it should be given, IMHO. But care should be taken that they really back-out. The Simla agreement was a failure - it saved their H&D with nothing being gained in return.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Apr 2010 09:16

Pranav:

Can you show me evidence that Mush agreed to LOC == IB? On the contrary, Mush was vociferous in declaring that LOC is the problem from TSP vantage point.

I don't think TSP is looking for a way out. They believe they have India by its b@lls. And there is no way they will agree to anything short of annexing the valley in the long term, but will settle for getting a foot hold in the valley in the short term. This later strategy: joint India TSP love making in Srinagar, is what MMS seems to have conceeded, if various Indian & western reports are to be believed.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Apr 2010 09:24

CRamS wrote:Pranav:

Can you show me evidence that Mush agreed to LOC == IB? On the contrary, Mush was vociferous in declaring that LOC is the problem from TSP vantage point.

I don't think TSP is looking for a way out. They believe they have India by its b@lls. And there is no way they will agree to anything short of annexing the valley in the long term, but will settle for getting a foot hold in the valley in the short term. This later strategy: joint India TSP love making in Srinagar, is what MMS seems to have conceeded, if various Indian & western reports are to be believed.

Well the Musharraf deal, as per reports, was that LoC == soft border, with no dilution of Indian control over the valley (maybe the deal talked about a reduction in troop levels as warranted by the security situation, but that is something that would happen anyway).

But yes, all your cautionary points are well-taken. Paks have unlimited capacity for hallucinating, and believing their own hallucinations.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Apr 2010 09:26

Pranav wrote:
Of course, this is not going to go down well in Pakistan and Islamabad can be expected to make many more strenuous protests against Indian presence.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 833351.cms

I don't think so. TSP has already said that if India's role in Afganisthan is reduced to that of a eunuch, they have no problem. This could very well be the deal US has struck between India & TSP. It has assured TSP that as it can build its strategic depth with "good Taliban", while India does the dirty re-building work and nothing more; no raa, no security forces etc. This is a golden deal for TSP. Plus, in the coming days, TSP will announce some token measures against LET, giving MMS the political cover to start his bhai chara with TSP. Of course, in the back ground US will be nodding its head in approval as its 2 bachaas behave and do as they are told.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Apr 2010 09:28

From Steve Coll's article on these issues

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/ ... nnel_11191

The most recent version of the nonpaper, drafted in early 2007, laid out several principles for a settlement, according to people who have seen the draft or have participated in the discussions about it. Kashmiris would be given special rights to move and trade freely on both sides of the Line of Control. Each of the former princely state’s distinct regions would receive a measure of autonomy– details would be negotiated later. Providing that violence declined, each side would gradually withdraw its troops from the region. At some point, the Line of Control might be acknowledged by both governments as an international border. It is not clear how firm a commitment on a final border the negotiators were prepared to make, or how long it would all take; one person involved suggested a time line of about ten to fifteen years.

One of the most difficult issues involved a plan to establish a joint body, made up of local Kashmiri leaders, Indians, and Pakistanis, to oversee issues that affected populations on both sides of the Line of Control, such as water rights. Pakistan sought something close to shared governance, with the Kashmiris taking a leading role; India, fearing a loss of sovereignty, wanted much less power-sharing. The envoys wrestled intensively over what language to use to describe the scope of this new body; the last draft termed it a “joint mechanism.”

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Apr 2010 09:33

CRamS wrote:
I don't think TSP is looking for a way out. They believe they have India by its b@lls. And there is no way they will agree to anything short of annexing the valley in the long term, but will settle for getting a foot hold in the valley in the short term.

CRamS, without modifying or changing your words in any way, may I suggest an alternative explanation, The alternative explanation may be discarded as worthless, but it exists.

The ruling elite and Paki army have no option but to keep doing what they have always done. Any appearance of looking for a way out will cause their radicalised population to fry their balls. The have to keep up the pretence of having India by the balls while they actually have a grip on a few Indian jhants (Pakis, pubic hair).

Any shifting or watering down of their stated position will bring the Paki state crashing down in the hands of jihadis and their Pakjabi mango supporters. The US is depending on that state/establishment and therefore the US does nothing to stop the Paki establishment from talking tough on India. So the bluster goes on. There is danger, but danger does not equate to India having lost.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Apr 2010 09:37

CRamS wrote: I don't think so. TSP has already said that if India's role in Afganisthan is reduced to that of a eunuch, they have no problem. This could very well be the deal US has struck between India & TSP. It has assured TSP that as it can build its strategic depth with "good Taliban", while India does the dirty re-building work and nothing more; no raa, no security forces etc. This is a golden deal for TSP. Plus, in the coming days, TSP will announce some token measures against LET, giving MMS the political cover to start his bhai chara with TSP. Of course, in the back ground US will be nodding its head in approval as its 2 bachaas behave and do as they are told.

This article from Dawn makes an important point:

Pakistan on its part must move beyond ‘security concerns’ and spell out what exactly it expects Washington to achieve in terms of the Pakistan-India equation. In doing so, it must take into account that the US does not have the leverage to do more than prod India constantly on key issues. Moreover, it is impossible for anyone to ask India to leave Afghanistan. Presence on the security front may be reduced but development assistance, and thus, civilian presence, shall remain courtesy of the domestic support for Indian social-sector spending among Afghans.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... agmire-940

India's strength in Afghanistan is the Afghan people themselves, for India does not want anything there that they do not want for themselves.

India does need to ensure that its friends have sufficient hard-power to defend themselves - but it is not necessary, and may even be counter-productive, to have Indian boots on the ground.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Apr 2010 10:41

abhishek_sharma,

That second para in your post is what scares the hell out of me. I think there are enough WKKs in the Indian govt, media that will settle for some joint BS. I say that any official role for TSP on our side of the LOC means TSP wins and an appeasement of their terror strategy. It may end terror to India in the short term, but long term, it will be a disaster.

Shiv:

I agree with you that no way TSP can afford to antagonize the likes of LET by diluting its position on Kashmir. Wife beater, Jihadi Lodhi et all, all were unequivocal in their writings that cracking down on a "popular group fighting for Kashmir's independence" will mean civil war. And given that every LET cadre has a brother or cousin in the TSPA, a civil war will dis-integrate TSPA. Anyway, all these are TSP's problems. But India cannot afford to appease those blood thirsty savages either.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Apr 2010 10:51

CRamS wrote:abhishek_sharma,

That second para in your post is what scares the hell out of me. I think there are enough WKKs in the Indian govt, media that will settle for some joint BS. I say that any official role for TSP on our side of the LOC means TSP wins and an appeasement of their terror strategy. It may end terror to India in the short term, but long term, it will be a disaster.

I don't trust it either. Even if it settles J&K, there is no guarantee that some "non-state actors" will not continue their Karachi Projects.

Moreover, Pakis can always turn around, reopen the whole problem again, and talk about self-determination etc etc.

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 Apr 2010 11:13

Prem wrote:Apology if this IED has been already heard by the Jirga.

At least 25 killed, over 40 injured in Qissa Khawani suicide blast
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... zaar-balst

Monday’s demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan in Peshawar targeting the JI Islamist political party is the fourth day in a row that there has been a suicide attack.

On Friday there was this demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan in a Quetta Hospital:

11 killed in Quetta hospital suicide blast

That was followed on Saturday by this demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan by burka clad bombers targeting an internally displaced persons (IDPs) refugee camp in the Kacha Pakha area once again of Kohat:

41 killed in twin Kohat suicide bombings

Then on Sunday there was this vehicular borne suicide attack on a Police Station in Kohat that completed a hat trick of demonstrations of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan:

Suicide bomber kills 7 in Pakistan's northwest

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » 20 Apr 2010 11:17

Gagan wrote:Why point out solutions to the mess that pakistan is in?
Let them figure it out themselves. Their 'intelligensia' read BRF and get ideas from the koopher here, and then employ it back home at the same time baiting India and hindoos at every opportunity.

The solutions that Anujan suggested would tamper with the current setup - control structure in Pakistan, so why would they ('Intelligensia') be interested in implementing plans that would be detrimental to their influence - control and lifestyle? The 'Intelligensia' in Pakistan isn't known for looking out for the needs of the lowly Abdul. They will make speeches about improving the country, but not do much beyond talking about it.

Based on the need to have suitable infrastructure (electricity & internet access) coupled with a decent command of the English language, that leaves a fairly small sliver of Pakistanis able to read this BBS. Those living in Australia, U.S., UK etc aren't in a position to make changes in Pakistan and are often supportive of the current setup in Pakistan.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Apr 2010 11:38

Thus spake Jihadi Lodhi. Note how she refers to her country's barbarity in Mumbai as an "incident", and note her side stepping LET. And now water has become a "dispute" which India has to accept. And if India does not accept, it means there will be no peace, meaning more Mumbais.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Apr 2010 13:06

CRamS wrote:And now water has become a "dispute" which India has to accept. And if India does not accept, it means there will be no peace, meaning more Mumbais.

Even if 'water' is accepted as an issue and resolved to Pakistan's satisfaction, there won't be any respite for India. Some other issue will crop up from the Pakistani side. The underlying cause is the visceral hatred for Hindus, and hence India, in the Pakistani minds, particularly among the Punjabis in that country. The Punjabis are ensuring (have ensured) that this hatred is all pervasive in their land. Unless the whole of Pakistan, wherever is possible, is disabused and cleansed of this wrong notion and unless certain irrecoverable portions of the Punjab are given a surgical treatment, there is no solution. It is a problem that immensely and immediately affects India but the rest of the world is also not immune from it. That is why, this is a multi-pronged and long-term project which cannot rule out any option.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Apr 2010 13:14

SSridhar wrote:
CRamS wrote:And now water has become a "dispute" which India has to accept. And if India does not accept, it means there will be no peace, meaning more Mumbais.
Even if 'water' is accepted as an issue and resolved to Pakistan's satisfaction, there won't be any respite for India. Some other issue will crop up from the Pakistani side. The underlying cause is the visceral hatred for Hindus, and hence India, in the Pakistani minds, particularly among the Punjabis in that country. The Punjabis are ensuring (have ensured) that this hatred is all pervasive in their land. Unless the whole of Pakistan, wherever is possible, is disabused and cleansed of this wrong notion and unless certain irrecoverable portions of the Punjab are given a surgical treatment, there is no solution. It is a problem that immensely and immediately affects India but the rest of the world is also not immune from it. That is why, this is a multi-pronged and long-term project which cannot rule out any option.

I just posted this link in the book review thread:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/b ... oks_lemann

From this article:

But if “global war” isn’t the right approach to terror what is? Experts on terrorism have produced shelves’ worth of new works on this question. For outsiders, reading this material can be a jarring experience. In the world of terrorism studies, the rhetoric of righteousness gives way to equilibrium equations. Nobody is good and nobody is evil. Terrorists, even suicide bombers, are not psychotics or fanatics; they’re rational actors—that is, what they do is explicable in terms of their beliefs and desires—who respond to the set of incentives that they find before them. The tools of analysis are realism, rational choice, game theory, decision theory: clinical and bloodless modes of thinking.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 20 Apr 2010 13:22

^^, pukes are desperately trying to link-up Water-issue with issue of terrorism and tension and also justify terror attacks in India. Look no far at Hafiz mullah's statement which keeps on stressing water-issue instead of a religious issue. On the front of religious sentiment, their support seems to be waning in J&K and they are desperate to find out multiple purpose(s) of their Jihad so that new recruits and funding keeps coming. We need to blow this hafiz(a**) to let pigs know that Yamdoot is always behind them to transport them to houris.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 20 Apr 2010 13:45

Support for Hazara province

The joint resolution endorsed by Hazara Union of Journalists (HUJ), Abbottabad Press Club and related journalists’ unions and the draft of which was readout at the huge public gathering arranged by Tehreek-e-Hazara in Abbottabad and Haripur to voice support for Hazara province. Till date, the death toll has risen to 15, including a policeman hailing from Abbottabad who was killed by Peshawar Police.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 20 Apr 2010 14:26

shiv wrote:http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=235097
Talks with no solutions
Mareej Maleeha Lodhi

She also claimed that Pakistan had conveyed to India that it was not in a position to guarantee that it could control terrorism.
Sad Sad Saaaaaaad. Such similar neighbors. We should be brothers.

India too will have to convey to Pakistan that it is not in a a position to guarantee that it can meet Pakistan's water requirements

Doctor Sahib,

You are equating a *Real* Indian problem (Paki sponsored terrorism) with an *Imagined* Pakistani problem (India denying Pakistan its "fair share" of water, being an upper riparian state and all). Pakistani water (or lack therof) is a problem entirely of their own creation.

They repeat a lie a 1000 times and slowly it sinks into our subconscious....

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 20 Apr 2010 14:45

abhishek_sharma wrote:Noting that Pakistan is a complicated country, which faces huge economic, energy and water shortage, a top Obama Administration official has said that the country needs the US' support.

"Pakistan is a complicated country that faces huge economic, energy and water problems. It has a long-standing set of concerns vis-a-vis its giant nature (sic) to the east, which have to be dealt with, and it faces an insurgency in the west.

Mr. Holbrooke and Americans in general need a gentle reminder that India also has a giant neighbour to its east, a nuclear power, which disputes Indian sovereignty over an Indian State, which controls the headwaters of many Indian rivers, and with whom India has several concerns.

And yet India is not paranoid about China.....so Pakistan's paranoia is internal and existential, and not related to anything India does.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 20 Apr 2010 16:19

Should we worry about the latest pakistani military exercises.
Will they use it to catch India off guard and invade?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 835836.cms

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Apr 2010 16:41

Not much possibility of that happening.

The Indian armed forces are deployed close to the IB just as theirs are. To approach the IB, and the other side not knowing is not possible.
The exercise is probably quite deep in pakistan, and the armed forces watch every move across the border and LOC very keenly.

The armed forces and the country have several means available including, humint, UAVs and at least 7 IRS series satellites in orbit to keep tabs on military movement. The role of the ubiquitous Raa agints is all pervasive and present 24x7.

In India's case, to mobilize all across the border and LOC will take 2 weeks, maybe less and Cold Start can be immidiate.
Pakistan lacks the ability to do something all across the IB and LOC all of a sudden. For them to build up and make a move in any reasonable strength into India will take a few weeks - enough time to build up a response I'd say.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Apr 2010 16:42

Pakbarians are on the right track, thankfully....they are blaming yindoos and yew-us / CIA...

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... bing-ss-04

If these animals come to the conclusion that their own fanatic barbarianism is the root cause, they may start reforms, so as long as they are drunk on this inner pakistaniat, we can be assured of their self destruction...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Apr 2010 16:55

Manu wrote:
Doctor Sahib,

You are equating a *Real* Indian problem (Paki sponsored terrorism) with an *Imagined* Pakistani problem (India denying Pakistan its "fair share" of water, being an upper riparian state and all). Pakistani water (or lack therof) is a problem entirely of their own creation.

They repeat a lie a 1000 times and slowly it sinks into our subconscious....

No saar we should make the lie come true. We gain nothing by keeping our word.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Apr 2010 17:32

The PoK judicial crisis is worsening

Here is the story so far . . .

Justice Riaz Akhtar was appointed CJ PoK while ignoring his six years senior Justice Manzoor Hussain Gillani. Since 2006 Justice Gillani has been seeking justice on the grounds of his seniority and had also filed a petition before the Supreme Court of Pakistan. On 15th March 2010, the Supreme Court of Pakistan sought from the AJK Council the record of PoK CJ appointment but the CJ PoK, very next day, passed an interim order against the Supreme Court of Pakistan, barred the PM of Pakistan from issuing any order regarding judges appointment in the PoK and declared Kashmir as separate country.

This highly objectionable order resulted in filing of a reference by the acting president PoK on the advice of the PoK prime minister against the CJ PoK but the president AJK, who at that time was abroad, upon his return tried to undo the acting president’s order, which led to a serious judicial crisis.

Sources said that Mian Manzoor Watto now proposes that Justice Riaz Akhtar should be asked to proceed on leave till the retirement of the incumbent Acting Chief Justice as a way out. However, the prime minister of PoK, speaker legislative assembly, substantial members of the PoK Muslim Conference leaders and almost all bar councils of PoK are not prepared to show any sort of leniency for the condemned CJ PoK.

On what grounds was the CJ of PoK removed ?

The PoK Supreme Judicial Council has unanimously concluded that the PoK deposed CJ PoK has transgressed and subverted the Constitution by usurping and exercising the jurisdiction not vested in him as chief justice and judge of the Supreme Court and violated the oath of judge which implies complete submission to the Constitution and under the Constitution to the law, he persistently violated the Constitution and the law against the rule of law by not abiding by the law.

The SJC also said the CJ also manoeuvred the petition for his own interest through the lawyers who are obliged to him through the favourable court orders for them and their kith for his personal advantage and seditiously subverted the Constitution by holding PoK as “another country”, thereby compromising the integrity of institution of justice.

He has also distorted Quran by misquoting the verse of Holy Quran, thereby impairing and destroying the reverence, respect and confidence due to the holy prophets, amounting to blasphemy.

OK. . . why is the situation then worsening now ? Because of this:

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani is being ill advised by his Kashmir Affairs minister and two important players of PoK power politics to violate the PoK Constitution.

The Constitution binds the prime minister of Pakistan, who is the chairman of the Kashmir Council, to approve the recommendations of the Supreme Judicial Council. Informed sources said PoK President Raja Zulqarnain, President of the ruling Muslim Conference Sardar Atiq Khan and the Federal Minister for Kashmir Affairs Mian Manzoor Watto are trying to influence the prime minister of Pakistan to avoid approving the SJC recommendations to sack PoK deposed chief justice Justice Riaz Akhtar Chaudhry.

This group of three is eager to save the skin of the deposed and condemned CJ by allowing the incumbent Acting CJ Justice Manzoor Gillani to continue till his superannuation i.e. June 7, 2010 when the deposed CJ should be brought back again to take charge of the office of the CJ PoK.

PoK Prime Minister Raja Farooq Haider, however, is not agreeing to this strange rapprochement and has already pleaded before Prime Minister Gilani to proceed in line with the law and the Constitution.

While Prime Minister Gilani is being advised to find a middle way, the PoK Constitution binds him to approve the SJC recommendations, which has already unanimously sought the sacking of PoK CJ Riaz Akhtar Chaudhry.

The PoK Constitution says that in case the SJC is of the opinion that the judge should be removed from the office, the Chairman of the council (Prime Minister of Pakistan) “shall advise” the president (of PoK) to remove the judge from his office and the president shall pass orders accordingly.

When things are happening in Kashmir, can the ISI be left out ? No, they are in the picture too . . .

Sources in the PoK government said that certain elements in the ISI are also trying to save the skin of the PoK CJ, who was rewarded by the Musharraf regime for his “services” rendered in his capacity as chief election commissioner during the election of 2006 as a result of which Muslim Conference came into power.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Apr 2010 18:04

Suppiah wrote:Pakbarians are on the right track, thankfully....they are blaming yindoos and yew-us / CIA...

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... bing-ss-04

Oh. . .that was big. Suicide bomber kills 23 people in a Jam'aat-e-Islami (JI) demonstration ? The redoubtable JI itself is being targetted in a suicide bombing !! What an irony ! Maulana Abu Ala Al Maududi who inspired Islamists to do all despicable things all over the world should be squirming in his grave when the same Islamists are attacking his own party. AoA only. It can't be explained in any other way.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Apr 2010 18:56

SSridhar wrote:
CRamS wrote:And now water has become a "dispute" which India has to accept. And if India does not accept, it means there will be no peace, meaning more Mumbais.
Even if 'water' is accepted as an issue and resolved to Pakistan's satisfaction, there won't be any respite for India. Some other issue will crop up from the Pakistani side. The underlying cause is the visceral hatred for Hindus, and hence India, in the Pakistani minds, particularly among the Punjabis in that country. The Punjabis are ensuring (have ensured) that this hatred is all pervasive in their land. Unless the whole of Pakistan, wherever is possible, is disabused and cleansed of this wrong notion and unless certain irrecoverable portions of the Punjab are given a surgical treatment, there is no solution. It is a problem that immensely and immediately affects India but the rest of the world is also not immune from it. That is why, this is a multi-pronged and long-term project which cannot rule out any option.

Well said . This is nothing but blackmail tactics by PK. Like neighborhood rogue running amok to get hafta.

If there is a difference , call for NE. If there is dispute call for Court of Arbitration. IWT is complied with by IN and PK have to prove their case. Must be told in no uncertain terms to *u*k Off. Neither water is a dispute nor India has to accept it as such. PK can cry as much as it likes.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 20 Apr 2010 19:42

Four killed, seven injured in Hangu blast

PARACHINAR: A roadside bomb blast struck a military convoy in the northwestern region of Hangu on Tuesday, police said.

Three security forces personnel and a civilian were killed, while seven others sustained injuries.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Apr 2010 20:27

SSridhar wrote: Even if 'water' is accepted as an issue and resolved to Pakistan's satisfaction, there won't be any respite for India. Some other issue will crop up from the Pakistani side. The underlying cause is the visceral hatred for Hindus, and hence India, in the Pakistani minds, particularly among the Punjabis in that country. The Punjabis are ensuring (have ensured) that this hatred is all pervasive in their land.

But there are enough WKKs in India, from Punjab and elsewhere who choose to ignore this root cause.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Apr 2010 20:34

Airavat wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:Noting that Pakistan is a complicated country, which faces huge economic, energy and water shortage, a top Obama Administration official has said that the country needs the US' support.

"Pakistan is a complicated country that faces huge economic, energy and water problems. It has a long-standing set of concerns vis-a-vis its giant nature (sic) to the east, which have to be dealt with, and it faces an insurgency in the west.

Mr. Holbrooke and Americans in general need a gentle reminder that India also has a giant neighbour to its east, a nuclear power, which disputes Indian sovereignty over an Indian State, which controls the headwaters of many Indian rivers, and with whom India has several concerns.

And yet India is not paranoid about China.....so Pakistan's paranoia is internal and existential, and not related to anything India does.

Thats a formulation that rouges like Holbrooke will accept. He will say: just as China and India sit down and talk throuigh all their disputes, India and TSP should do the same.

Instead of bringing in China, I would keep it simple, stupid for thugs like Holbrooke. I would say India is a complicated country, and secularism is its founadtion. With TSP using terrorism as an instrument of state policy, in particular by LET that attacked Mumbai and is close to the TSPA, India needs US support to prevent a nuclear flashpoint. TSP cannot be alllowed to pick and choose which terrorists it goes after, and US should not be rewarding TSP for its selective rounding up of terrorists. USA's battle with Al Queda and "bad Taliban" is no more sacrosanct than India's battle with Punjab-based terror groups like LET sponsored by the Paki army. Once LET is eliminated, India will consider talks with TSP. This is the message that needs to drilled into Holbrooke's ears.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Apr 2010 20:36

If Pakistan wants water to be an issue, then India should start saying, yes, it is an issue, India needs more water than the IWT allocates it. That way, India is acknowledging the problem, and can get into "problem-solving mode" to the satisfaction of Maleeha Lodhi and other RAPEs.