Managing Pakistan's failure

[RajeshA]

X-Posted from TSP Thread

Myopia is always consdered as a weakness in any cultural context. What we need to find out is how to hurt the 3.5 friends of TSP for the myopia of TSP. As they may have deep pockets but they can't have pockets deep enough to keep bailing out TSP in prepetuity. Once that is accomplished only then can we have some breathing space.

India is doing all it can to wean away the 3½ friends away from Pakistan.

India has improved her relations with most countries across the spectrum including 3½ friends. India is trying her best to show, that the factor of Fear of India's Rise, and Strategic Tussle is not a driving force behind the support of 3½ friends to Pakistan.

The other factor is for Pakistan to be seen more of a liability to the 3½ friends than as a force multiplier.

If the countries are getting a blow-back because of their support to Pakistan, then they will sit up and take notice about their support.

This can manifest itself as trouble in China's Xinjiang Province by the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, or a proliferation of Chinese nuclear weapons gifted to Pakistan by China coming into the hands of ETIM or some other group having a grudge against China. As Pakistan becomes ever more dysfunctional and produces ever less, it would need more financial support from its 3½ friends. Would China be willing to pick up the bill. Till now it was the Americans and the Saudis who paid in dollars.

Similarly America has a 1.5 million strong Muslim military at its disposal in Pakistan. Would America give it up?!

Of course, there are voices, which say Pakistan is more of a problem, than part of the solution. That is the blow-back to America from Pakistan due to their relationship, is stronger than the mercenary services and a military platform that Pakistan provides. It is a tussle of opinion in Washington.

However an increasing amount of intelligence and media reports on Pakistan's duplicity resulting in the loss of American lives would cause the balance to shift in opinion in Washington against Pakistan.

America could decide that like in the 90s, that it doesn't need Pakistan anymore.

Similarly the Saudis may get some brunt of the anger in Pakistan for not coming to Pakistan's aid, especially when the economy of Pakistan dives. The spread of Wahabbism in Pakistan may also cause a backlash against the Saudis.

The other ½ friend, be it Japan or UK, too are coming around to the viewpoint that it is better to have good relations with India, than to encourage Pakistan to needle India.

[RajeshA]

X-Posted from TSP Thread

Paranoia about the neighbor is one of the most effective tools the British and then the Americans have used to advance their world domination.

• Pakistan's paranoia of India

In the case of TSP, it is not paranoia, it is hatred of the Kuffar, and desire to dominate.

Being on the losing wicket makes you see the world differently! Pakistan has been on the losing wicket from Day 1. Now more so than before.

[Pranav]

Being on the losing wicket makes you see the world differently! Pakistan has been on the losing wicket from Day 1. Now more so than before.

They don't see themselves as being on a losing wicket - rather they consider Islamist conquest as their mission.

[RajeshA]

Being on the losing wicket makes you see the world differently! Pakistan has been on the losing wicket from Day 1. Now more so than before.

They don't see themselves as being on a losing wicket - rather they consider Islamist conquest as their mission.

Coming from some of the more knowledgeable in Pakistan, some of that rhetoric is to keep their dirt bag of a nation afloat at the level of public opinion - giving the unemployed and easily impressionable Pakistanis some purpose and optimism in life; distracting them from the problems at home; etc.

Coming from the professional Islamist crackheads, that rhetoric is all they live on.

But the more knowledgeable know the truth, and so does the wider populace, that their nation has a one-way ticket to doom. In the mean-time, they are willing to do some pass-time day-dreaming.

[RajeshA]

X-Posted from TSP Thread

Paranoia about the neighbor is one of the most effective tools the British and then the Americans have used to advance their world domination.

• Pakistan's paranoia of India

In the case of TSP, it is not paranoia, it is hatred of the Kuffar, and desire to dominate.

The Pakistanis know/knew that they cannot/couldn't easily dominate India however much they may hate them. So, they adopted various strategies. All of them were masks put on for the purpose of justifying their aggression against India. One of them certainly was 'paranoia'. It helped in two important ways. One, it heightened the sense of alarm among the masses and made it easy for the important stakeholders to control or mould the society. Two, Pakistan justified its actions vis-a-vis India to its 3½ friends (and others who mattered or were willing to listen) on the basis of this paranoia.

Well there was some paranoia in the Muslims when they started to voice the demand for a separate nation - they were paranoid about the Hindu domination.

Today they have their own nation, but they are still paranoid. This paranoia may not be about the immediate danger of being attacked by India militarily, but there is still the civilizational paranoia: that they can dominate an ever strengthening India neither economically nor militarily, and a civilization that lives and prospers not on what it produces but rather on what it loots, cannot survive for long without the loot.

Of course, when the Muslims demanded their own nation, their paranoia of the Hindu, made them forget that, that the Muslim civilization survives on the productivity of the others. Perhaps a very big mistake indeed for them.

The hate for the Hindu, IMHO, has far more to do, with the fact, that in the new dispensation on the Indian Subcontinent, the Hindus would not need to pay jaziya nor can the Muslims simply loot the Hindu at their whim and desire.

The metaphor "Grow or Die" has a meaning in Islamic Civilization as well.

Of course the Pakistanis have used the other paranoia: that of being attacked by India, as a tool for justifying its various transgressions and policies.

But others (read Anglo-America) have also made use of Pakistan's paranoia, the civilizational paranoia.

[RajeshA]

X-Posted from TSP Thread

Although what you describe is more correctly labeled as frustrated aggression rather than paranoia, IMHO.

It is indeed frustrated aggression, but if one's existence is dependent on successful aggression, than it would have shades of paranoia.

[RajeshA]

X-Posted from TSP Thread

Thus, while the stakeholders raised the India-centric paranoia among the masses, they used that for their own ends knowing perfectly well that with enormous patience and a usually benign approach, not much harm would come their way. At the same time, their benefactors would bestow Pakistan with disproportionate dividends.

I will try a small perhaps coarse analogy:

Let's consider a department in some manufacturing company. The Muslim manager of the dept. doesn't really have any technical skills but uses his authoritative nature to get the work done by the Hindu employees. Because of their technical skills the company takes on more Hindu employees. Now the manager knows that sooner or later, his higher ups would find out about his lack of skills and would start putting the Hindus on the fast track to promotions.

So he is paranoid about getting a Hindu boss, who would be demanding, maybe just like him, and he would not be able to show any skills, making him lose his job.

As he finds out, that the company is thinking of some management level changes in the dept., he decides to leave the company and start his own venture. In the middle of the night, he even takes half the factory equipment and declares it stolen.

In his new small factory, he has all the equipment, has got some venture capital from some investors, whom he has promised a lot, but no Hindu workers to work on the equipment. Now he has existential angst. He knows that if his new venture fails, his factory will go broke, and it would be auctioned to pay for his debts; the same Hindu employees who worked under him, would buy up his little factory in an auction really cheap and he would end up on the street, broke and humiliated.

In the end he is really angry at losing his only source of income, his lordship over productive Hindu workers. He fears their capacity but claims his right to lord over them.

His anger, his hatred, his victimhood is his only way to square the circle.

[shiv]

I think this "paranoia" versus frustrated aggression" is a pointless argument especially because it gives the wrong impression. It is definitely paranoia - but that paranoia has been created among people so that the army can survive with its annual looting of the Paki budget. Last year the Paki armed forces too 20% of the budget. Check it online if you like.

The "frustrated aggression" description gives the impression of a mad aggressive maniac - like that wild three headed wolf-monster from Harry Potter - capable of terrible aggression if unleashed. Such a picture is far from the truth.

When the Paki army is gobbling up so many resources they will have their goolies eaten up if they do not at least pretend to show some aggression. For years now the Paki jernails have been too cowardly to fight - so they have paid Mullahs like Hafiz Saeed to run recruitment and training camps to employ Kasabs. Kasabs are hungry, randy and jobless and can be trained to become suicidal kilers. By describing Pakistan as "frustrated aggression" we are missing the detail of cowardly ba$tards who are using their most fcued up people for suicide attacks while the armee jernails live in luxury and Hafiz Saeed gets to marry or grope the widows

So please..

[Pranav]

I will try a small perhaps coarse analogy:

Let's consider a department in some manufacturing company. The Muslim manager of the dept. doesn't really have any technical skills but uses his authoritative nature to get the work done by the Hindu employees.

As you mention, it is a coarse analogy. Using labels like "Hindu" and "Muslim", and ascribing behaviors to them does not do justice to the wide spectrum that exists in each category. That is a difficulty in such discussions.

One of the rules in science is to identify appropriate concepts and give them appropriate names. These form the building blocks for further analysis. If you don't go through this step, your thought process gets handicapped. We have made some progress in this direction (coming up with labels like WKK, for example). But maybe more clarity is needed.

For example, what are convenient and evocative labels for the following people:

MK Gandhi
Ambedkar
Jinnah
APJ Abdul Kalam
Nehru
Maulana Azad
John Dayal
Maulana Wahiduddin Khan
Hameed Gul
Hafeez Saeed
Pervez Hoodbhoy
Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan
Kuldip Nayar
Teesta Setalvad
Savarkar
Narendra Modi
Colonel Purohit
Vallabhai Patel

Perhaps the first step is to identify the important dimensions. For example, affinity to Indic civilization could be one of the dimensions. Here Nehru would do poorly, but APJ Abdul Kalam would have a high score. Another dimension could be clarity of analysis of various ideologies - here Ambedkar would score pretty high, but MK Gandhi was not so good.

[RajeshA]

Pranav ji,

The analogy was to capture the essence, that Islam thrives by conquering and looting, and that the Dharmics can thrive by producing and trading.

If one takes away the conquering and looting, then Islam would be in a quandary. Rhetoric and Terrorism are being used in Islam, especially in Pakistan, to give the public hope of conquest and loot. Every year, the rhetoric becomes more absurd. If dreams were horses, Pakistani flags would fly on the Red Fort.

I have had friends from other places, like Syria, Kurds and Arabs, and all of them are convinced that they will be the heirs to power in Europe and everywhere else. So the day-dreaming is a reality of Islam.

If some day Oil dries up in the Gulf or Man discovers an alternate energy source, if some day some bio-engineered termite destroys all the poppy crops in Afghanistan, if some day Pakistanis working in the Gulf and Europe are all deported and the foreign remittances come to a screeching halt, if America or China stop giving baksheesh to Pakistanis, how will the Pakistanis and may be some other Arabs make ends meet.

Even today Pakistan uses the benefit of its 'strategic geography' to take toll for goods passing through its land, be it NATO supplies or IPI Pipeline. All these are hardly productive activities.

Pakistanis, even though they inherited the Indus Delta, feel the need to be subsidized by India. They feel that as Muslims they should get jizya, and can't accommodate the thought of Non-Muslims living in a world created by their Allah, not paying jizya to them.

[shiv]

Once again - let me summarize Pakistan the nation so we don't get confused: I will leave out East Pakistan as that is a different story.

Pakistan was created on the excuse that Muslims of India needed a separate state.

West Pakistan consisted of feudal chiefs of Punjab and Sindh who were too illiterate to run any government, but were clever enough to want to hold on to their lands and privileges. The Mohajirs - opportunist Muslims from India were settled in Sindh. They had no land, no roots. But they had the education to run the government. The mohajirs became the bureaucrats. The army was run by Pakjabis who were upset at how Kashmir slipped away and wanted to take revenge for partition.

In the 1940s and 50s (as now) Pakistan had vast illiterate masses of people. If these Abduls had been given teh right to vote they would have voted out the feudal lords just as easily as Hindu kafirs. If the feudals were afraid of democracy, the mohajirs, with no roots had no chance. So democracy could not be allowed in Pakistan. Soon the autocratic mess of Pakistan was joined by the army - which was invited into power.

The feudals, the army and the bureaucrats (mohajirs) had to have an excuse for keeping their illiterate masses poor and without resources and development. That excuse was Kashmir and kafir India. As Pakistan failed to get Kashmir in 1948 and later in 1965 - it started sinking. Even then US aid was keeping Pakistan alive.

When Bangladesh was formed in 1971 (after a civil war that started because a East Bengali party that won elections was not allowed to form the government in Islamabad) guess who should have got the boot? It was the Paki army. But no. the army and the feudals led by Bhutto blamed India and said that more Islam was needed. And Islamization was started. So once again Pakis were told that India was the biggest threat.

Pakistan is a fcued up nation. It has a greater percentage of illiterate and poor than India, but they do not even conduct proper censuses - so nobody knows exactly.

The survival of the Pakistan army in power and the feudals are both dependent on hostility to India. Pakisan has to be in a continuous state of national emergency with money going continuously to the people in power who claim to be holding India at bay. In order to show that India is being kept at bay periodic attacks have to be conducted.

These plans are now breaking down -I will stop the summary here.

Pakistan needs

• land reforms
  Democracy
  deconstruction of the army
  Disempowerment of feudals

Pakistan has

• Vast illiterate masses and a burgeoning population
  15 million illegal firearms (AK 47 and the like) on the loose
  Uncontrolled islamic militias
  An artificially fostered fear of India
  An artificially fostered image that all is well in Pakistan
  A false idea that the Paki army is doing good to Pakistan.

[Pranav]

When the Paki army is gobbling up so many resources they will have their goolies eaten up if they do not at least pretend to show some aggression. For years now the Paki jernails have been too cowardly to fight - so they have paid Mullahs like Hafiz Saeed to run recruitment and training camps to employ Kasabs. Kasabs are hungry, randy and jobless and can be trained to become suicidal kilers. By describing Pakistan as "frustrated aggression" we are missing the detail of cowardly ba$tards who are using their most fcued up people for suicide attacks while the armee jernails live in luxury and Hafiz Saeed gets to marry or grope the widows

So please..

Yes, it is good to look at the economic and other baser interests of the actors. But there are plenty of true believers for whom the ideological aggressive mania plays an important role.

[shiv]

Yes, it is important to look at the economic and other baser interests of the actors. But there are plenty of true believers for whom the ideological aggressive mania plays an important role.

Pakistani leaders have tried their level best to convey the impression to Indians that Pakistan is Islam United - a roaring bunch of Ghazis all out to swallow India. This is a bluff and you are propagating that bluff. The number of roaring Ghazis is not that large and they are hardly that united. They are mostly fairly meek cowards who are being led up the garden path by someone or the other including the 3.5.

Oh yes they are Muslims. As long as you believe the bluff that every Muslim is a roaring Ghazi out to swallow India you are 100% correct. That story is meant to scare Indians and if you believe it, it only shows the success of Paki propaganda.

[Pranav]

Pakistani leaders have tried their level best to convey the impression to Indians that Pakistan is Islam United - a roaring bunch of Ghazis all out to swallow India. This is a bluff and you are propagating that bluff. The number of roaring Ghazis is not that large and they are hardly that united. They are mostly fairly meek cowards who are being led up the garden path by someone or the other including the 3.5.

Oh yes they are Muslims. As long as you believe the bluff that every Muslim is a roaring Ghazi out to swallow India you are 100% correct. That story is meant to scare Indians and if you believe it, it only shows the success of Paki propaganda.

You greatly underestimate the effects of indoctrination, I would say. It is the indoctrination which enabled the Paks to genocide the Bengalis.

[vic]

It seems that Pakistan is supporting the Haqqani network for a long time. It is also belief is lot of quarters that Haqqani Network “is AlQueda” itself. Won’t that mean that Pakistan has medium term plan to take over the Crown of Saudi Arabia under the façade of Osama Bin Laden’s name?

[jaibhim]

If India does not watch out her corruption and nepotism we wont we far from blessed land who dream of jihad as they enjoy the sleazy scene from a bollywood flick in their rooms, just before the call of the devine. Please also check the dawn and Mr.Naqvi's long diatribe against India and actually it is so convincing not without truth, but perhaps exagerrated ,the same -same strategy and that India is really breaking down form inside and the trail of his signature campaign of concerned citizens apart from eminent respectable people like Professor Baxi and other luminaries has some well known baladeers of the indian vanguard, tamil tribune and sahniti kind pointing in the direction of the peoples march which will now be added as an issue in south asia[how convenient to discuss south asia as a single block ] If India is not careful every single internal issue [1-0 or 1-1 the sick mentality or same same strategy argument line] will now become a matter of discussion under peace in south asia the troubled continent broken by nepotism and poverty as Mr.Naqvi might put it! India and Pakistan South azia read as India are on fire and in trouble[therfore the domino effect will begin and economics ramifications could start, institutions are weak, its a banana country, it is evident that war need not be physical and the bayonet charge is nice for glory but has little pragmatic value, there could be war on finance and so many fronts. India must clean up inside and delive justice for her poor. Anyone who has read game theory can deduce that one need not wage a bayonet charge singing the battle hymn of the republic to affect someone. Let some of the uinimaginative bureaucrats sleep for sleep is their privilege.


For a change the guardian had a point to make--Shining India' makes its poor pay price of hosting Commonwealth Games
The games have yet to start but they already have many losers: the slum dwellers whose communities are being destroyed
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Tweet this (110)
Jason Burke, Delhi
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 11 July 2010 16.39 BST
Article history

A young girl works on a building project in front of the Jawaharlal Nehru stadium in the Indian capital, where the games will be held. Photograph: Daniel Berehulak/Getty Images
The government bulldozers came to the school at 11am, after yoga and before English and Hindi lessons. The children and their teachers had three hours to clear the classrooms. By mid-afternoon, the Yamuna Riverbank school was rubble.

"They told us we were a security risk, so we had to go," headteacher Parminder Khaur Somal said. "All my children were crying. I don't know how we can be a threat to anyone."

Somal founded the school five years ago for 180 local slum children living on the banks of the Yamuna river on the outskirts of Delhi. In recent months, she and her pupils have watched a vast new complex of luxury apartments rise 500 metres away: the athletes' village for the forthcoming Commonwealth Games. "We never thought it could be a problem," Somal said.

The games, to be held in October, have sparked a wave of demolition across the Indian capital. The competition is the biggest such international sporting event held in India for decades and is seen as an opportunity for the nation to show off its new economic might.

Sheila Dikshit, the chief minister of Delhi, has repeatedly said she wants to the city to be "world class". There is even talk of trying to host the Olympics in the future. A particular target of the authorities is anything that could tarnish the "shining India" image.

Organisers of the games are acutely aware that the din and filth of the Indian capital could shock visitors. So, along with the construction of new sporting facilities, roads, flyovers, metro lines and an airport, dozens of long-standing slum communities built on public land, vacant lots, by railways or along rubbish-strewn stream beds have been destroyed; hoardings conceal others.

The children at Somal's school came from a community of workers on nearby vegetable farms. The nearest alternative was three miles away, across busy dual carriageways.

As the bulldozers destroyed the school, police also moved through the workers' shacks, scattering possessions and breaking down walls and ordering inhabitants to leave.

"The police just started beating me." Said Dharam Pal, a shopkeeper. "They dragged me 50 metres on the ground and then told me: "If you don't leave here on your own, we'll throw out."

Pal, 40, said the community was established 15 years ago and that he had "nowhere else to go".

Others complained of being assaulted. "Not only did they break the school, but they beat us too," said Harpyari Devi, 24, a mother of three children at the school. Senior policemen at the scene refused to comment. Officials from the Delhi municipal authorities were unavailable this weekend.

Somal said she had been told the school, which is run by volunteer teachers and funded by donations, was a "security risk" for the athletes living in the village, which is ringed by high concrete walls and heavily patrolled. Equipped with its own water filtration plant and helipad, the complex will cost more than £150m, a report issued last month by local campaigners claimed.

"If we were a security threat, we could have just stopped classes until after the games. But the law here is just 'might is right,'" Somal said.

Children at the school, still wearing their free uniforms, said they were sad. "I wanted to be a doctor," Ranjeet Shakya, eight, said.

The parents of almost all the pupils are illiterate. Many eke out a living as vegetable vendors in Delhi. None knew what the luxury flats that have been built overlooking their fields and the ruined school were for.

"I've never heard of the Commonwealth Games," said Danveer Karan, a 35-year-old farmer who supports his family of four on a daily wage of 100 rupees (£1.30). "I don't know why the buildings have been made. I don't know why the government destroyed our school either."

[A_Gupta]

jaibhim: yes, if india does not learn from pakistan's failures, there is no hope.

Simple solution to govt's problem, but -
""If we were a security threat, we could have just stopped classes until after the games. But the law here is just 'might is right,'" Somal said."

[Brad Goodman]

You greatly underestimate the effects of indoctrination, I would say. It is the indoctrination which enabled the Paks to genocide the Bengalis.

indoctrination makes you reckless in your actions so yes it enabled them to conduct genocide in eask pakistan but at the same time made them lose it along with 90k gazis and h&d for life.

[RajeshA]

jaibhim ji,

perhaps this is the wrong thread for your previous post.

[jaibhim]

Thanks Mr.Gupta,this same same strategy and we will hug you mentality and MJ Akbar wrote a fantastic piece some days back on how the gatekeepers are sleeping when the country is burning. If India does not watch every issue of hers will become a south asian problematic which is actually the internal preserve of india. Corruption and sleeping hanji bureaucracy will ensure that. India is truly surrounded now and it might already be too little too late. If people had heard Sam Manekshaw he always said never underestimate anyone. No i think I am right,Rajesh Sir, i am talking of same same and the south azia problematic and how maoist or NE thing which the pure ied tourists have not a clue but are lead to believe that they are in trouble and need all moral support just as sikh and tamil bretheren fighting for freedom[the army has done its job, but corruption will take it away] will become a part of the south asian crisis then India will be left helpless[some futurology here]. India must keep an eye on the propaganda war that has begun now, same-same, south azia, freedom etc. It is also time facebook, youtube and the press are eaglerly kept vigil, just as some idiot journalist of ibnlive called a fellow who writes fanatical things to whip up from cashmere , vulnerable indians is called a citizen journalist!

[RajeshA]

jaibhim ji,

This thread should primarily deal with Pakistan, its nature, its weaknesses, the trend of its evolution, and possibilities that India has to both exploit the situation as well as to contain the fallout. It is also to deal with India's options in light of Pakistan's sponsorship of Terrorism.

This Thread is not about what is wrong with India. In this thread that would be propaganda of the type equal-equal.

Please look for more appropriate threads for your post.

Thank you.

[shiv]

If India does not watch out her corruption and nepotism we wont we far from blessed land who dream of jihad as they enjoy the sleazy scene from a bollywood flick in their rooms, just before the call of the devine. Please also check the dawn and Mr.Naqvi's long diatribe against India and actually it is so convincing not without truth, but perhaps exagerrated ,the same -same strategy and that India is really breaking down form inside and the trail of his signature campaign of concerned citizens apart from eminent respectable people like Professor Baxi and other luminaries has some well known baladeers of the indian vanguard, tamil tribune and sahniti kind pointing in the direction of the peoples march which will now be added as an issue in south asia[how convenient to discuss south asia as a single block ] If India is not careful every single internal issue [1-0 or 1-1 the sick mentality or same same strategy argument line] will now become a matter of discussion under peace in south asia the troubled continent broken by nepotism and poverty as Mr.Naqvi might put it! India and Pakistan South azia read as India are on fire and in trouble[therfore the domino effect will begin and economics ramifications could start, institutions are weak, its a banana country, it is evident that war need not be physical and the bayonet charge is nice for glory but has little pragmatic value, there could be war on finance and so many fronts. India must clean up inside and delive justice for her poor. Anyone who has read game theory can deduce that one need not wage a bayonet charge singing the battle hymn of the republic to affect someone. Let some of the uinimaginative bureaucrats sleep for sleep is their privilege.

Well said.

But it's the wrong thread. You are utilizing the eyeballs on this thread to highlight something that is true but off topic.

That is wrong.

[jaibhim]

Rajesh ji my post was about the twice born land of the pure, its media and new strategies. Please move the post to where you feel fit. As a humble indian who is quite intelligent and knows some economics, sociology foucault power and strategy, i am just sounding the warning of dangerous trends developing from the land of the pure and its footsoldiers;Mr.Shiv.

[RajeshA]

jaibhim ji,

Fair enough. Thank you.

[shiv]

Rajesh ji my post was about the twice born land of the pure, its media and new strategies. Please move the post to where you feel fit. As a humble indian who is quite intelligent and knows some economics, sociology foucault power and strategy, i am just sounding the warning of dangerous trends developing from the land of the pure and its footsoldiers;Mr.Shiv.

It is still off topic. It has been discussed before and it is up to you to move it to the appropriate thread and keep highlighting it if you are really interested in the country rather than dumping it on here and depending on someone else to do the job for you. After all our entire country is hoping that someone else will solve our problems.

Israel will attack Pakistan
USA will de nuke Pakistan
Someone else will come and sort out India's problems..
etc.

[shiv]

You greatly underestimate the effects of indoctrination, I would say. It is the indoctrination which enabled the Paks to genocide the Bengalis.

indoctrination makes you reckless in your actions so yes it enabled them to conduct genocide in eask pakistan but at the same time made them lose it along with 90k gazis and h&d for life.

It was army training and discipline, which is a form of indoctrination. Those people were killed by the Pakistani army with overwhelming firepower.

I was amazed when a young Indian responded to one of my Bangladesh genocide video compilations by saying that he had never heard of it. It is left out of our history books. I have linked one of the videos below. A part of Joan Baez's song is there describing how Dacca University students were asked to donate blood and they were bled to death while the army took too much blood from each person. Listen to the words in the video clip

Some more links about the genocide are on the first post of every Pakistan thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-94U1bVUQ

[A_Gupta]

jaibhim, yes, please move this to one of the threads on the Technology & Economics forum. It will be useful to take structural problems identified about Pakistan that are also applicable to India and highlight them in that forum.

[svinayak]

firepower.

I was amazed when a young Indian responded to one of my Bangladesh genocide video compilations by saying that he had never heard of it. It is left out of our history books.

When one does analysis of the textbook changes from 1965 till now we see a pattern of history changes and how they want to create a false sense of history and Indian view of the world.
1965, 1971, 1980, 1984, 1990, 1993, 1997, 2000 are period when lot of effort has been done to change the view of the new generation Indian using the text book and media. This is fascinating to study. And these changes in text books are done openly with the assumption as if rest of the Indians are stupid and do not understand the truth and the history.

[Pranav]

It was army training and discipline, which is a form of indoctrination.

It was not ordinary army training. The conception of Bengalis as Kuffar or at least as impure Muslims had a lot to do with it. The Pakistan army soldiers were particularly comfortable with killing and raping Hindu Bengalis.

[Pranav]

When one does analysis of the textbook changes from 1965 till now we see a pattern of history changes and how they want to create a false sense of history and Indian view of the world.
1965, 1971, 1980, 1984, 1990, 1993, 1997, 2000 are period when lot of effort has been done to change the view of the new generation Indian using the text book and media. This is fascinating to study. And these changes in text books are done openly with the assumption as if rest of the Indians are stupid and do not understand the truth and the history.

Not just textbooks - there is not a single Bollywood movie on the Bengali genocide.

As regards the assumption of stupidity of Indians - unfortunately the political awareness amongst Indic peoples is indeed quite abysmal.

[RajeshA]

firepower.

I was amazed when a young Indian responded to one of my Bangladesh genocide video compilations by saying that he had never heard of it. It is left out of our history books.

When one does analysis of the textbook changes from 1965 till now we see a pattern of history changes and how they want to create a false sense of history and Indian view of the world.
1965, 1971, 1980, 1984, 1990, 1993, 1997, 2000 are period when lot of effort has been done to change the view of the new generation Indian using the text book and media. This is fascinating to study. And these changes in text books are done openly with the assumption as if rest of the Indians are stupid and do not understand the truth and the history.

Acharya garu,
This seems to be a worthy project!
Perhaps one can write a book on it!

I believe many people would be interested to know, what kinds of manipulations have been carried out, what has been left out, what has been added, what has been modified, on whose insistence, under what pressures and to what possible purpose. I would certainly tell us about the world-view of the various governments and their appointed educationists.

[brihaspati]

The Bengali genocide of '71 was not carried out merely by overwhelming firepower from the regular Pakistani army. The most significant factor that is usually not highlighted was the degree of paramilitary and civilian collaboration from within Bengali Muslims in such genocides. No all were killed by the latest artillery, but some of the more common techniques were
(1) tied or locked up in enclosed spaces, markets ["haat"], buildings, bamboo-straw houses and set on fire
(2) tied in a chain of people by ropes and throats sliced ["jabai" - particularly touted in Bengal as proper means of "killing"
(3) buried alive
(4) [added later] impaling - particularly if BD flags with poles were found

Apart from this the provision of sex-slaves, which was also specifically targeted at domestic political enemies and their families, enforced prostitution - all of which were carried out with local Bengali muslim collaboration from a section. Many women in bondage were killed just prior to "liberation" and the camps were abandoned.

There are estimates which try to show that the targets for both sex-slavery and massacres were more among the Hindus than Bengali Muslims. There were also widespread looting and possession of land and property as well as abduction, forced conversion and marriages of Hindu women to Muslims - these did not happen for the benefit of the Pak army.

Not only that, there has been a consistent political force in post Pakistan, independent BD to suppress these facts and protect the collaborators - especially from Islamic organizations or those political groupings who flaunt their Islamism a bit too strongly.

So the question of inherent meekness or cowardness is a tricky question in populations dominated by Islam. The problem, is that even when most of the society remains perhaps as bystanders or observers, they may not actively oppose atrocious behaviour by a determined subgroup of people.

It is unrealistic to assume society wide convergence of opinion within Pakis towards putting into action when faced with concrete situations - what they understand as Jihad towards non-Muslims like Hindus of India. However, their very understanding of Jihad may actually restrain them from taking any action to prevent those Pakis who decide to carry out such atrocities. They may even facilitate by protecting such Jihadis, when reversals happen. On the other hand the prospect of gaining, land, wealth and women could also make them passive collaborators.

No Islamic population, anywhere in the world, so far - has shown any consistent tendency to protect non-Muslims living among themselves or as neighbours, when opportunities for Ghazwas arise. Neither have they ever taken any steps to violently resist such violent actions by fellow Muslims - if it was targeted at non-Muslims. In the Bengal partition, and '71, I can count off the handful of Muslim personalities [in case of '47 not belonging to the anarchist movements, in case of '71, not belonging to the resistance army and units] from civilian side who took up arms to defend Hindus and thwart Jihadis (Batam Sardar for example).

Experience in Bengal should not be thrown away because it is no longer apparently Pak - while discussing Pak. The Bengali experience is an even more poignant case to study because of much greater overlaps in culture with the non-Muslims, and yet such things happened : culture proved a tactic to give cover to intra-Islamic fight for dominance and resources. But where it was not a question of "resources", and it was a question of the non-Muslim - commonalities of culture and civilization played an insignificant role.

With the Pak-fail, even that cultural overlap is of much less significance, and this is why Bollywood^n is unlikely to make any difference. Cultural convergence should not be taken as assurance that the classical Jihadi behaviour will not be reproduced as and when opportunities arise again.

I agree that they are basically cowards -proved again and again in the '71 war - (especially the closing days, when they tried to desperately surrender to IA and not the locals or resistance units, or the massacres they undertook with local collaboration just before surrender) which is again standard and classic behaviour for almost all Islamic societies so far, when faced with real possibility of extinction they will pretend anything and do anything to preserve a core from which they hope to hit back once again in the future. They do not go for Massada type self-annihilation, never. Which is why, a lot of Paki outpourings will actually prove to be bluster if concretely put to the test. They survive because they have never really been credibly threatened with complete annihilation - you will see the meekness Shiv ji has been talking about. But nothing short of that will stop the bluster.

[Karna_A]

As regards the assumption of stupidity of Indians - unfortunately the political awareness amongst Indic peoples is indeed quite abysmal.

I would have agreed with this statement but looking at Pakistan's failure and other cases around the world, I now take a contrarian view.
(a) An angry population is unproductive population and leads to eventual loss of nationhood, TSP, Nazi Germany, Pre 1945 Japan are shining example of that.
(b) The atrocities on Indic populations has been so great that if they are made politically aware of that, Indics would become angry unproductive citizens constantly at the throats of non indics and it would also lead to great inter caste conflicts as past inter caste atrocities would also come to forefront. It would lead to a nation where everyone is fighting everyone else like in TSP.
(c) The atrocities of western nations on China has been equally great as on India but the average Chinese is not constantly fed on the past atrocities so as not to make him/her unproductive violent citizen.
(d) The atrocities of Germans on Russians and Russians on Germans are equally gruesome but average citizens do not harp on them.

This leads me to believe that for average citizens its better to be ignorant and be a productive member of society than be a knowledgeable but angry and violent citizen.
However, for leaders and thinkers of nations opposite is true and its a must to be politically aware of the past as those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat them.
How to achieve this balance between ignorant masses and aware politicians is what US/UK/China/Russia have perfected in their own countries.

[jaibhim]

Thanks for your words Mr.Shiv. I don't want to hog the posting space here.

I am a newcomer in posting messages but a very old follower of BR and fiercely proud of the idea of a just equitable and strong India. However, I am not so sure whether all the posts by others are also directly relevant to the topic on quite a few occasions. I offer my sincere apologies. Consequently I am not sure where the above post cited by you would be most apposite. We reason based on the apriori facts given to us and if we want to analyses we ought to try to arrive at a falsifiable model based on methodological realism which holds that there are concrete structures and future states we can build or exist and wait to be unpacked, independent of our perception. I was pointing out a future state trend in newspaper writing and other online spaces which said we are going to be there and so is India. I am sorry if it was in the wrong place and I am aware of its prior appearance here. I am only trying to unpack it and elaborate upon it.

The more facts that are presented to us will enable us to build models that would try to debate upon future trends. I will try to move it elsewhere but in the technology area but if it is not possible delete the same. It would be good to bring some analytical rigor here for all use the tools which modern analysts use such as Foucault[his singular contribution on how power works in the world and how people are controlled], grammatology and other powerful research tools available to build models cut through textual material with razor sharp precision, read history proactively with reference to the present and not just rely on newspaper reports[there ought to be a difference between a pedestrian journalist and a thinking person]. I am doing my bit to make BR better. Instead of falling to the allure of jingoism and blind patriotism, cold logic and analysis with India's well being in mind and retroductively arguing where the land of the pure will go would be very helpful indeed. If it is unwarranted, I will recline to being a passive spectator.

[brihaspati]

Karna_A wrote
I would have agreed with this statement but looking at Pakistan's failure and other cases around the world, I now take a contrarian view.
(a) An angry population is unproductive population and leads to eventual loss of nationhood, TSP, Nazi Germany, Pre 1945 Japan are shining example of that.

In statistical analysis this is called the "confusion over hidden variable" problem : if two factors appears to correlate in observed phenomenon over a small data set, people jump to the conclusion that one of the factors is driving the other. Yes it can be so, but it could also be insufficient data size, and more importantly the possibility of a third variable not being considered which drives both. This is why, all known possible factors relevant for teh study should preferably be observed and the analysis done on the whole. In case of Pak - the most obvious variable is missing - that of Islamic claims of the right to subjugate others and not being subjugated themselves or ever being thwarted in their desire at the cost of others.

Paki anger could be a direct result of the training given by islamic mindset, which looks at any supposed historical loss as an atrocity. This does not necessarily imply denial of "awareness" of historical reality as a policy tool for all societies on earth.

(b) The atrocities on Indic populations has been so great that if they are made politically aware of that, Indics would become angry unproductive citizens constantly at the throats of non indics and it would also lead to great inter caste conflicts as past inter caste atrocities would also come to forefront. It would lead to a nation where everyone is fighting everyone else like in TSP.

Again, an assumption and "equal-equal" done with Islamic mentality. Were Indic behaviour in the past more violent? Did they go out at every opportunity to cut the throats of non-Indics? Most of CAR and SE Asia records say otherwise. Did they go out to cut CAR throats after the Huna and Kushan invasions? Were they unaware of atrocities by the Hunas?

(c) The atrocities of western nations on China has been equally great as on India but the average Chinese is not constantly fed on the past atrocities so as not to make him/her unproductive violent citizen.

Not correct. The average educated Chinese is quite aware of historical atrocities. I have many colleagues of Chinese extraction, education and birth - all aware of what happened. This is also true of non-academics - the chinese working at a local store chat away happily about this with me, and we discussed about things not available normally in the west as info at the commons level.

(d) The atrocities of Germans on Russians and Russians on Germans are equally gruesome but average citizens do not harp on them.

Again incorrect. Try out "Zoya Kosmdemianskaya" with a Ruski and the Berlin rape-suicides with a German.

This leads me to believe that for average citizens its better to be ignorant and be a productive member of society than be a knowledgeable but angry and violent citizen.
However, for leaders and thinkers of nations opposite is true and its a must to be politically aware of the past as those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat them.
How to achieve this balance between ignorant masses and aware politicians is what US/UK/China/Russia have perfected in their own countries.

A very Nazi-an/Stalinist line of thought. Awareness in the common people is what checks future atrocity both from within as well as from outside - if and only if that awareness is based on facts and not on selective amnesia and purposive reconstruction - which is what happens most of the time at the hands of the leaders and thinkers. If restricted within a selected group, thats the doom for that society. Just as Paki leaders and thinkers suppress the uncomfortable aspects in their own history [not the atrocities -but their own defeats and false morality], and Indian leaders and thinkers have suppressed in the opposite direction. We all know where it has come to - suppression and reconstruction in India did everything possible to demonize the cultural unity of the non-Muslims of India, constructed mythical divides and abstract categories of antagonsim hard to prove in real history, and recosntructed Indian non-Muslim as peace-only, meek-only, silently suffering and ever-forgiving, and never hitting-back even in defence population, while denying any role of Islamic ideology behind historical atrocities - that gifted the Partition violence. It taught people not to expect such atrocities again and caught the most vulnerable a their most exposed. This is what thought policing and thought-segregation in history leads us to!

[RajeshA]

jaibhim ji,

Please do not take any requests related to posting discipline as personal. It is simply meant for structuring discussion.

Your contributions would be most welcome.

[brihaspati]

By the way, raising the issue of "historical inter-caste" atrocity on this thread is OT, so I did not react to it here. Just as an afterthought - the more history would have been allowed to be studied openly and without thought-policing by the gov and gov appointed custodians of thought - the less would be the concrete evidence for such inter-caste bitterness and conflict. Even a non-historian like me can thrash and squash it using the very same arguments that professional historians use to trash claims of Islamic atrocities. Let us not bring that in here on this thread!

[Karna_A]

Awareness in the common people is what checks future atrocity both from within as well as from outside - if and only if that awareness is based on facts and not on selective amnesia and purposive reconstruction - which is what happens most of the time at the hands of the leaders and thinkers. If restricted within a selected group, thats the doom for that society. Just as Paki leaders and thinkers suppress the uncomfortable aspects in their own history [not the atrocities -but their own defeats and false morality], and Indian leaders and thinkers have suppressed in the opposite direction.

I agree with jist of your statements. However, awareness based on facts in real world is very hard to get and harder still to keep. The nature of political beast is such that distorted information is constantly used to gain power and that is not going to change soon. History is rife with examples where misinformation is used more often than genuine knowledge in creating disturbances.
In that way, question becomes whom should a common man trust to provide fact-based info. (BRF is surely an option!)
The need of Indian politics is not only to manage TSP failure but to actually learn from it so suitable lessons can be applied at macro and minor levels. That means parallel with managing TSP failures there needs a reformation of Indian politics.

I still feel an average Indian is better of creating the next Infosys or Wipro then trying to shift through the maze of historical misinformations and trying to decide who did what to whom and when. That is the task of strategic and political community and other subsidiary think tanks like BRF.

[jaibhim]

Thanks Mr.Rajesh. I apologise in advance for being off topic here. Since I invoked Foucault the onus on me is also guide readers to the a starting point called The Essential Works of Foucault Penguin publishers and his work [mainly Discipline and Punish and The Archaeology of Knowledge] went on to change the way strategists thought of power and analyse how people could be controlled with their own volition and the number of scholarly papers and phds churned out is now beyond count. To the best of my knowledge, in western think tanks rigorous behavioural sociology that really gets under the skin of the object of its study[leaving nothing unsaid most often and therefore the millitary part is a logical sequel] and economics are at the heart of any strategic thought. There are some books such as Foucault , Gadammer [for those who read into the land of the pure's past] Truth and Method and Popper's classic The Open Society and its Enemies is in my humble opinion directly relavent to the thread here, Louis Dumont in India Homo Hierarchichus and David Hardiman's Feeding the Bania; which will be helpful for each and every analyst to make a better presentation based on a firmer grasp of tangible analytical payoffs.True the task of reading history must rest with BRF to predict the future, I humbly suggest that but we must engage with history as a set of discourses modes of thinking and acting, modes of institutions and their conflicts and stuggles witheach other and how our present predicament influences our past[perspectivism] and how if broken down into logical dyads we can have a more aggressiveproactive reading of the past from the reader rather than just being a passive recepient, that will have use for the future strategy.

The use of greater tools than ordinary mortals employed by professional decipherers after reading from the past events and making future scenario situations and educate ourselves constantly on bringing better analytical tools onto the table. That is what makes policy and action possible as compared to an otiose psychadellic mad rabid dog barking we will get you forum run by some fanatic from the land of the twice born pure[as the saying goes barking dogs seldom bite]. I leave it at that. I am only suggesting that it will be good for all of us this thread is infused with a little more rigour as we do our own modelling bringing the best of all research methodology and reasoning and take it another plane. Let us, be intellecutally empowered and be razor sharp with the foresight and power of ratiocination, that came to a persevering Ambedkar who used to be the first to arrive and last to leave in the libary in Columbia University.

[RajeshA]

I still feel an average Indian is better of creating the next Infosys or Wipro then trying to shift through the maze of historical misinformations and trying to decide who did what to whom and when. That is the task of strategic and political community and other subsidiary think tanks like BRF.

That would be the case, when the strategic and political community would not be on the opposite poles of a national consensus. That would be the case, when the political community would take the problems of the country head-on and not behave as if there are no dangers.