India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

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Pranay
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Pranay »

Another approach in India's strategic outreach to Afghanistan, in addition to military, economic, etc should be ground up approach ie: Ethnic Group/tribes.

A broad based approach will mitigate the impact on the strategic relationship when the inevitable happens - Mr. Hamid Karzai is no longer the President.

Afghan society still has a predominantly family, village, valley, tribe, ethnic group hierarchy; rather than a homogeneous national identity.

India's approach should be such that the average Afghan looks at India's involvement in Afghanistan as beneficial to his family, village, valley, tribe, ethnic group, country.

We can breakdown the ethnic groups/tribes into say, 3 sets - Pro India, Ambivalent & Anti India/Pro Pakistan.

How do things "stack up" as of the present? ?

Would welcome feedback from forum members with an intimate understanding of the subject matter in this regard.

The following information gives a breakdown of the main ethnic groups of Afghanistan and at a granular level, some of the main tribes within each ethnic group.

http://afghanistan.saarctourism.org/ethnic-groups.html
Ethnic Groups Population Ratio
Pashtun 42%, Tajik 27%, Hazara 9%, Uzbek 9%, Aimak 4%, Turkmen 3%, Baloch 2%, other 4%

Mainstream Ethnic Groups
Pashtuns

Pashtuns or Pakhtuns or Pathans or Persian Afghans are the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan. They constitute about two-fifth of Afghan population. Pashtoons can be further segregated into tribes, most famous among whom are Durrani and Ghilzai. Other major tribes are Wardak, Jaji, Tani, Jadran, Mangal, Khugiani, Safi, Mohmand and Shinwari. They can be easily recognised from other Afghan ethnic groups, due to their Pashto language and peculiar way of living, called Pashtunwali.

Homeland of Pashtuns lies south of the Hindu Kush, but Pashtun groups are scattered all over the country. Most Pashtuns work in farmlands to earn their livelihood. Many of them live nomadic lifestyle too. These nomads live in tents made of black goat hair.

Tajiks
Tajiks or Tadzhiks constitute the second largest ethnic group in Afghanistan. Populating around 4.5 million, they live in the Panjsher Valley north of Kabul and in the northern and northeastern provinces of Parwan, Takhar, Badakhshan, and also Baghlan and Samangan. Few Tajik people extend into the central mountains. Most Tajiks speak Dari Persian language.

Tajik community is not divided into tribes. They prefer to identify themselves with the valley or region they live in like Panjsheri, Badakhshi, Samangani and Andarabi. For earning livelihood, Tajiks do sedentary mountain farming and sheep/goat herding. Tajiks grow variety of fine fruits and nuts.

Hazara
Central regions of Afghanistan, known as Hazarat, are inhabited by the Hazaras. Good number of Hazaras also dwell in Badakhshan. Most of them are farmers and shepherds. Most Hazaras are the followers of the Shia sect of Islam. The Hazaras have their ancestors in Xinjiang region of north-western China. For a long time, the Hazaras were a neglected lot. However, they are now trying to get rid of their inferior status.

Uzbeks
Approximate 1.3million Uzbeks live in Afganistan. They live all across the northern areas of Afghanistan, mixed with Tajik population. The Uzbeks are the followers of Sunni sect of Islam and speak central Turkic dialects like Uzbeki. Most Uzbeks earn livelihood by farming and herding. However, several Uzbeks have become successful businessmen and skilled artisans. Uzbek social structure is patriarchal and leaders having the title beg, arbab or khan enjoy considerable power. The Uzbeks have no hesitation marrying with Uzbek and Tajik, but are averse to nuptial relations with Pushtuns.

Turkmens
Turkmens dwell along the southern side of Amu Darya. Most Turkmens are nomadic poeple who herd yaks. Turkmens speak both archaic form of Turkish and Persian. Many nomadic Turkmens still live in dome-shaped tents based on wooden frames. Men wear coats with long sleeves, while women also wear long dresses to cover their hands in cold weather.

Nuristanis
The Nuristanis live in eastern Afghanistan bordering Pakistan. The region is so densily forested and rugged that it can be reached only by foot. They speak various dialects of Nuristani and Dardic. Usually, the Nuristanis are farmers, mountain herders and farmers. However, many of them have earned respectable place in the social order by getting into the army.

Baluchs
Baluchs in Afghanistan live in thinly populated deserts and semi-deserts of Helmand Province. Few Baluch enclaves can also be found in Faryab province. Number of Baluchs in Afghanistan is estimated around 100,000. Most people of Baluch ethnicity live in Pakistan and Iran. Most Baluchis can speak and understand Baluchi, Dari and Pashto. Chiefs of Baluch society are called sardars.

Other Ethnic Groups
Aimaqs live among nontribal people in the western regions of Badghis, Ghor and Herat provinces. They are Sunni Muslims and speak dialects resembling Dari. Several Arab enclaves can also be found in north-western Afghanistan. They are pastoralists who rear sheep and grow cotton and wheat. They speak not Arabic but Dari and Uzbeki. The Qizilbash are scattered all over Afghanistan. Traditionally, they have been holding administrative and professional positions. Sunni Brahui is a group living in the desert regions of south-western Afghanistan. Low in social heirarchy, they work as tenant farmers and hired herders for Baluch or Pashtun chieftains. The Wakhis live in small, remote hamlets in lower areas of Wakhan corridor and upper Badakhshan. The Farsiwans live near the Iran border or in some districts of Kandahar, Herat and Ghazni provinces. They are Dari-speaking agriculturalists.

Non-Muslim Population
Hindu-Sikh population in Afghanistan in 1990 was approximate 30,000. Under the reigns of Taliban, the Hindus were forced to wear yellow badges to identify themselves. Continuous violence caused rapid decline in Hindu-Sikh population.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by rajrang »

Carl wrote:
anupmisra wrote:Besides, talk is cheap. The Afghans and pakis deserve each other. Ever been on an Afghan forum? There is no love for Indians or any SDREs there. The 5000-year old Indian sub-continental history is rife with cases of double-talk, double deals and vishwas-ghaat.
Double talk and vishwas ghaat? If I was in Karzai's place I would also be forced to do this slobbering, fawning reassurance to the Pakis. After all, what reason would I have to be confident of India's support? What have Indians done to show me they will extend a strong hand just when I need it most? Have Indians demonstrated the willingness to get their hands dirty even for causes they show sympathy for? Baluchis are being ethnically cleansed in their own land, have Indians done anything major? For Tibetans? For Afghans? Myanmarese? Nothing bold and decisive yet. And still Indians expect Afghans and others to stand up and boldly tell the Pakis to eff off. Why not show these proteges how?! :?:

Af-Pak, ME and WA are not places where mere word-jugglery and intellectual gas can fly. Its a tough neighborhood, where brotherhood is signed in blood, and enmity is also treated like a blood feud. Indian "SDRE brahmin" policymakers need to understand that cultural point thoroughly, and translate the difference practically.

Love that expression - " word-jugglery and intellectual gas"
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by KJo »

anupmisra wrote: Besides, talk is cheap. The Afghans and pakis deserve each other. Ever been on an Afghan forum? There is no love for Indians or any SDREs there.
Sorry, I don't buy that. That is not the case in my experience. I have not only been on Afghan forums, but have been Admin chacha on Afghan forums. Yes, me, a SDRE Kafir moderating Afghan Muslims for 5 years. It's a long story, I was site administrator as well. I can say for sure that Afghans do not like Pakis. I still am friends with some of the Afghans from that site and we email and talk politics every day. I have met some of them in person also.

HK is very unpopular among US based Afghans. They all want him out. After HK made his stupid statement, I asked my Afghan friend and he said "see, this is what we have been telling you about HK, he just isn't too bright". Most Afghans have family members educated in India (like Karzai). There are pockets of jihadi types who can be swayed using Islam, but you can say that about some Indian muslims as well.

It's highly likely that the US ordered HK to make a statement to assuage the Pakis after signing the agreement with India. This guy went too far, or the Paki media twisted his statement.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by member_19686 »

Well my buddy served in Afghanistan as Infantry soldier around Kandahar (Pathan area).

He said the Afghans seemed to like India and would ask him stuff about Bollywood etc (he doesn't watch Indian movies) when they found out he was from India.

So there is some truth to the claim that there is goodwill for India in Afghanistan.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by rajrang »

Surasena wrote:Well my buddy served in Afghanistan as Infantry soldier around Kandahar (Pathan area).

He said the Afghans seemed to like India and would ask him stuff about Bollywood etc (he doesn't watch Indian movies) when they found out he was from India.

So there is some truth to the claim that there is goodwill for India in Afghanistan.

Going back a few decades in history - Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, a pashtun was a man of peace and goodwill toward India.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Altair »

I have been researching the internet providers in Afghanistan and i came up with some information.

First,We have contractors in Afghanistan who want easy access to fast internet.
http://www.bentleywalker.com/military/afghanistan
They are service providers.However they are costly. India can do something about the cost if we can have one of our satellites for facilitating this kind of project.


There is also something called FabFi, an MIT funded project
http://code.google.com/p/fabfi/wiki/WikiHome

Its pretty basic but can get you connected to the internet. Indian companies who want to have footprint in Afghanistan can explore this project.

There are other options but have their own reliability issues.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Atri »

Acharya wrote:Atri
You have not replied to my superpower game in af Pak region
I thought about this for long now, Acharya ji. I could not agree with you. Not because I have some understanding or some "tarka" to refute your statement. It is more about intuition, if you accept intuitive impulses as "Pramaana". The ground was levelled then, yes but not for Dharmiks. ROI has not yet committed itself to Dharma,although most of their actions were on gross level dharmik, but on certain crucial aspects, they have been disgustingly mercantile and adhaarmik.

ROI will have to make Dharma as OS, and then enter gandhar, if they wish to level the play-field for dharma. levelling it to others and adharmik ROI (who has made Faustian deal) is no levelling, IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hattin

Sorry for taking long.. I have not got much to say, these days..
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Pranay »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 537012.cms
Pakistan is blocking the establishment of a regional monitoring group to oversee cooperation on Afghanistan's economic and security future. As leaders from 12 nations head to Istanbul on November 2 to help Afghanistan become a stable and independent state, Pakistan is building up opposition to the key decisions at the conference.

Foreign minister S M Krishna will represent India at the conference, the first time India will be at the table. Last year, Pakistan had successfully weighed in with its close allies and host, Turkey, to keep India out. Turkish president Abdullah Gul bore the brunt of New Delhi's unhappiness when he visited India soon after.


While negotiations for the event is yet to yield an "outcome document" (a negotiated, agreed text), there are two stated goals - to commit to non-interference/neutrality on Afghanistan and to set up a mechanism of senior officials to monitor it. Pakistan has cited "national security", maintaining its old position that it needed to have a "friendly' government in Kabul as a defence against India. Pakistan's opposition is to having so many countries - primarily India- enjoying similar status in the contact group on Afghanistan.

The US, Pakistan's principal backer, has decisively turned away from accepting Islamabad's arguments. Turkey, Pakistan's close friend and mentor, too is pushing the regional framework that includes all Afghanistan's neighbours. Hillary Clinton, who will represent the US at the conference, will push the New Silk Road concept that is aimed to help Afghanistan to its feet, and one that includes all its neighbours. This too has seen opposition from the Pakistani army.

Pakistan, said sources, is trying to marshal support from an unlikely group of countries that may have implications for India. Iran, which is opposed to the idea of US military presence in Afghanistan, has been seen to be supporting the Pakistani position, even though Teheran detests the Taliban and the al Qaeda. A curious fellow opponent is Russia. Moscow is worried about a Talibanised Afghanistan, but it is equally sceptical of a continued US presence there.

Highly placed sources in government say there have been recent "exploratory" talks between Pakistan and Russia on Afghanistan. Russia, like Iran and India, used to be the triad that supported the Northern Alliance in the 1990s when Taliban ruled Kabul with Pakistan's help. But in a changing geopolitical environment, Russia is finding itself much closer to China, which Russians have admitted to as being "need-based". Russia's economic ties with China have increased exponentially, and in regional groupings is now closer to China than ever before.

While China has little to object in the Istanbul plan, China is bound to support Pakistan. The Chinese objection has centred on a stated apprehension that the new contact group could replicate or undermine its creation, Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO). Pakistan foreign office spokesperson repeated this line, "The existing regional organizations and arrangements may also be urged to prioritize support in their respective domains for achieving the aforesaid objectives..."

Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Iran, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the UAE, the US and the UK will attend the Istanbul conference, which precedes the 90-nation Bonn conference in December.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by svinayak »

Atri wrote:
Acharya wrote:Atri
You have not replied to my superpower game in af Pak region
I thought about this for long now, Acharya ji. I could not agree with you. Not because I have some understanding or some "tarka" to refute your statement. It is more about intuition, if you accept intuitive impulses as "Pramaana". The ground was levelled then, yes but not for Dharmiks. ROI has not yet committed itself to Dharma,although most of their actions were on gross level dharmik, but on certain crucial aspects, they have been disgustingly mercantile and adhaarmik.


Sorry for taking long.. I have not got much to say, these days..
Good that you took time to think about it.
I will reply later.

We need to merge your thought with the global geo graphy based politics of the modern time to create great advantage for the Indian people and Indian republic.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Agnimitra »

Khan Mohammad Danishju is an IWPR-trained reporter in Kabul.
Afghans bemused by Karzai's views
The furore caused by Karzai's remarks led his office to quickly backtrack. Spokesman Amal Faizi said the president's remarks had been distorted and were not a reference to US efforts to strike at insurgents based in Pakistan.

[...]

Instead, he said, Karzai meant that "if America attacks Pakistan, and if the Pakistani people come to Afghanistan and ask for help, it will be [our] moral responsibility to help them. The doors of Afghanistan will be open to them."

Afghan foreign ministry spokesman Janan Musazai added greater clarity when he told reporters that the remarks had been taken out of context, given that only one clip a minute long was shown from an interview that lasted for nearly an hour.

[...]

Sayed Fazel Sancharaki, spokesman for the Afghan National Front, the main political opposition to Karzai's administration, noted the recent strategic agreement signed with India, Pakistan's old enemy, and suggested the president's remarks were little more than confusing bluster.

"If this government did support Pakistan, then it would have reacted to the [US] drone attacks in Waziristan and other parts of Pakistan," he said. "Afghanistan has never taken a stand that backs Pakistan. Remarks like these from Karzai can only leave the people of Afghanistan and the international community in a state of uncertainty."

Regional affairs analyst Abdol Rashid Waziri said the president would do well to avoid appearing to take up positions that most Afghans would disagree with.

"Ninety-five per cent of the Afghan people do not view Pakistan with friendly eyes. They are doubtful about friendship with that country," he said.

Like Sancharaki, Waziri argued that a statement about siding with Pakistan might have been intended to calm Islamabad's fears that the strategic pact with India could lead to the threat of encirclement.

"The president was trying to make the Pakistani people understand that Afghanistan will never allow other countries to use it to interfere in Pakistan," he explained.

Political analyst Harun Mir said any statements that Afghan leaders made should always be carefully crafted so as to avoid the possibility that they might be misused or misquoted.

"The president should have made diplomatic, measured remarks so that no one would be able to misinterpret them," he said. "The president's discussions on Pakistani TV or other media outlets need to be very precise and calculated because these media are monitored by the ISI [Inter-Services Intelligence agency] which can extract all kinds of interpretations from such remarks."

In reality, though, Pakistani officials would not have taken the remarks seriously, as they had their own agenda for Afghanistan anyway, Mir said. The same was true of Afghanistan's Western allies, for different reasons.

[...]

Kabul resident Id Mohammad was among the many Afghans who found the president's quoted remarks offensive.

"I am certain that if one day Karzai asks the people of Afghanistan to come and stand beside Pakistan against some other country, there will be no one in favor except Karzai himself. But if he calls on the people to come and take a stand against Pakistan, even the women and girls of this country will be prepared to do so," he said. :rotfl:

Another Kabuli, Hajji Daud, took a different view, arguing that Afghanistan was so weak and vulnerable to Pakistani pressure that a bit of duplicitous flattery was sometimes necessary.

"Even if such remarks aren't sincere, it's good for us to be smart. We need to keep in mind the best interests of our people and country at all times. If all it takes is a few words to make our enemy happy, why not say them and keep him on the hop?" :lol:
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by ramana »

Satinder Lambah's paper on Durand Line

http://www.aspenindia.org/pdf/durand.pdf
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Prem »

ramana wrote:Satinder Lambah's paper on Durand Line

http://www.aspenindia.org/pdf/durand.pdf
Lamba family moved from Peshavar to India and must have old friends there .
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by svinayak »




Turkey is bringing together leaders of Afghanistan and Pakistan in an attempt to reduce tensions between the two sides.

Ahead of the "Istanbul Conference for Aghanistan", Afghan officials have laid out terms for the nation's security efforts.

Along with the $5bn annual cost, Afghan military officials are asking for help in ground and technology training. In addition to international help in their ongoing security efforts, Kabul will also be asking for greater pressure on Pakistan.

The South-Asian nation has been accused of supporting violent forces, including the Haqqani Network, staging attacks in Afghanistan by both Kabul and Washington.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by svinayak »

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2011_pg3_3

Afghan endgame: advantage to Pakistan? —A R Siddiqi
A State Department spokesman, Victoria Nuland, at a media briefing (October 26) ruled out all possibility of war with Pakistan. Ms Nuland’s statement affirmed the US’s peace strategy to make nonsense of President Karzai boast to stand by Pakistan in the event of an American attack. She said, “Because it is not going to happen it is not an issue (war).” Karzai’s loud boast in nuclear parlance would sound like ‘the mouse that roared’.

A protégé of the US and under its protection, Karzai should be the last person to stand by Pakistan in the event of aggressive action from his own patron saint, the US, or his most favoured country, India.

A rank opportunist, Karzai could not wait to go back on his word and blame the media (mainly Pakistani) for ‘misinterpreting’ his statement. The easiest thing to do when caught on the wrong foot for the kind of loose talk intended to be clever.

She relented, even more, as she took questions from the audience at her press conference. Shamama, a charming lady from Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, stood and intervened to liken the US with a fastidious hardnosed mother-in-law never to be satisfied with her daughter-in-law. Shamama (meaning fragrance) thus provided a lighter interlude to send Clinton into uncontrollable guffaws. She would hardly have ever experienced such uncontrolled laughter even in a private gathering, not to speak of a media encounter.

Whereas Shamama’s hilarious aside would impact but little on the US’s ‘AfPak’ diplomacy in essence, it did change the tone to Pakistan’s advantage — no matter how small.

President Obama’s election year should ease the pressure on Pakistan to frustrate Mr Karzai’s pipedream to stand by Pakistan in the event of an American invasion.



Apart from the sheer absurdity of launching yet another war-like operation after a failed Iraq and a failing Afghan war, yet another war on a nuclear-armed Pakistan would be suicidal on the eve of the crucial election years.

It could take a sudden adverse turn, seriously to impact the course of the coming election, which ‘remains the domain of uncertainty’. In a strange juxtaposition of the stars there are no two countries as Pakistan and the US hustled into the same zodiac house.

Afghanistan should recede into a relative twilight zone after over a decade of blinding limelight. Pakistan would steal the show for the world to watch as the curtain rises on the next act.

Pakistan may be risking anything short of extinction but the US may risk its stature as a global giant.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by svinayak »

Pakistan wants to enhance economic ties with Egypt: Naek
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 011_pg7_13
Staff Report

ISLAMABAD: The Acting President Farooq H. Naek stressing the need for strengthening multi-faceted bilateral relations between Egypt and Pakistan said, “We highly value our relationship with Egypt which are based on shared religion, culture, history and commonality of views between the two brotherly nations”.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by svinayak »

Afghanistan urges Pakistan to ‘move beyond words’

ISTANBUL: Afghanistan urged Pakistan on Tuesday to “move beyond words” and take concrete steps to curb militants which it said were a threat to both countries. Afghan Deputy Foreign Minister Jawed Ludin told reporters on the sidelines of the meeting in Istanbul that Afghanistan and Pakistan had been trying for several years to build trust “but I think we have failed to see results on the ground”. “So we are at a stage where we need to move beyond words, beyond expressions of commitments. We need to get to a stage where we actually do concrete things that will address our concerns with regards to our security,” he said. reuters
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Pratyush »

In the past support for violent groups would get you designated a state sponsor of terror. But these days it gets you invited to the high table. As a part of the solution.

I think that GOI ought to start thinking in these terms and follow Paki Tactics. That ought to get us sekority kouncil seat as a bheto carrying mamber.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Aditya_V »

Pratyush wrote:In the past support for violent groups would get you designated a state sponsor of terror. But these days it gets you invited to the high table. As a part of the solution.

I think that GOI ought to start thinking in these terms and follow Paki Tactics. That ought to get us sekority kouncil seat as a bheto carrying mamber.
Non violent but those against US interests were. Like N Korea, Cuba etc. TSP was always exempt.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Arav »

[quote="shyamd"]^^ To add to the above, they need sound economic projects that generate good income for the Afghan govt. The mines etc are a good start. But it needs to be sustainable and something that generates real income to sustain the ANA/P[/quote]

IMO, One other are could be explored be textiles. Afghanistan neighbours Tajiks, Turks, Uzbeks are major producers of cotton. So setting up of cotton ginning, yarn, merchandising infrastructure with indian private sector participation can provide lots of employment with good ROI.

Training of man power is also easy, as India has the requisite expertise and doesn't need much of skilled and highly educated individuals unlike in IT industry...
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by RajeshA »

Arav ji,

very good suggestion. Welcome to BRF!
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by CRamS »

Pratyush wrote:In the past support for violent groups would get you designated a state sponsor of terror. But these days it gets you invited to the high table. As a part of the solution.

I think that GOI ought to start thinking in these terms and follow Paki Tactics. That ought to get us sekority kouncil seat as a bheto carrying mamber.
Wrong. You have failed elementary BR 101 course :-). Support for violent groups earns you state sponsor of terror, only if the terror were directed against whites and their interests. Go back and look at all the designates past decades. Moreover, given that whites also control the information superhighway, the terrorists they designate become the "world's most wanted". So for e.g., this notion that OBL is the world's most wanted terrorist is the mantra even in India, when in fact, OBL has not even come close to the crimes perpetrated by Hafeez Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim, and other TSP proxies and terrorists. Even for Uber pseudo secularists in India who insist that Islamic terrorists slaughtering their compatriots have no religion, they don't shy away from referring to the mighty Al Queda and OBL just as US does.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by shyamd »

India's Track 3: Afghan-Iran rail link
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 63448.aspx
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by ramana »

Some history:
SBajwa wrote:
Such an Afghanistan, Pakistani leaders fear, will lay claim to the
Pashtun areas that straddle a border that was drawn carelessly
by the British and that Afghanistan has never fully accepted.
They also fear that the Pashtuns might someday want a nation of their own. "
Here are some facts for zimble people.

1. Grandson of Ahmad Shah Abdali (Durrani) Zaman Shah invaded India in 1799., but was
forced to return from Lahore by Sikh forces under 16 years old new leader
named Ranjit singh from the village named Shukarchak near city of Gujranwala, Punjab.

2. Ranjit singh chased Zaman Shah all the way upto river Indus., returning back
to Lahore declared himself the Maharaja of the Punjab.

3. In 1818 Sikh forces of Ranjit singh crossed the river Indus Under Diwan Mohkam Chand and Cavalry
under Hari Singh Nalwa defeated Dost Mohammad Khan and appointed Jahandad
Khan as the governor of Peshawar on the annual tribute of some money.

4. In early 1820s Dost Mohammad Khan was freed from occuption of Nawab of Kashmir and Ranjit Singh got the kohinoor
diamond as a tribute. Dost Mohammad Khan was appointed governor of Peshawar and KAshmir
was made part of Khalsa kingdom.

5. In Jan of 1823 Mohammad Azim the king of Kabul attacked Peshawar and occupied it.
Thus Ranjit Singh took command of the army and marched on the Peshawar with
Hari Singh Nalua, Akali Phula Singh, Gorkha Bal Bhadra, Misr Diwan Chand,
Sardar Attar Singh and Hukma singh Chimni. They defeated Mohammd Azim and again
appointed Dost Mohammad khan as governor on an annual tribute.

6. In 1827 Hari Singh Nalwa defeated the Jihadi Ahmad Shah Barelvi (who was from Bareli in UP)
and was trying to get a force of "Mujahdeen" together to defeat all the Hindu kingdoms of India.

7. This time Hari Singh Nalwa stopped the Barelvi Jihadi from crossing the indus into Punjab,
defeating him. Here is quote by Griffin
"Griffin states that when Sayed Ahmad roused all the fanatic power of Yusafzais for
a holy war against Sikhs and was joined by the Barkazi chief of Peshawar,
Sardar Hari Singh Nalua with his 25,000 men prevented Syed Ahmad from crossing
Indus. Then Lahore troops crossed Indus and invaded Peshawar, Syed Ahmad and
his crusaders were butchered. Hari Singh gave Sayed a great setback. Peshawar
was pillaged, Palaces were destroyed, tribute of Peshawar was increased and the
son of Yar Mohammad Khan was carried away by Hari Singh as hostage. Then again,
in 1830, Maharaja had to sent Prince Sher singh to Peshawar to get tribute
from Sayed Ahmad which was paid."


8. Then in 1830 Maharaja had to send his son Gen. Sher Singh to get tribute from Peshawar.

9. On 6th May 1834, Hari Singh Nalwa was made the first non-muslim Governor of Peshwar in
1000 years.

10. Hari Singh Nalwa created so many defenses in this area that King of Kabul started paying
him tribute.

11. He created 40+ little forts all the way to the Khyber Pass from Peshar so that India could
never be attacked from this place (it has been used since Alexandar to attack India).

12. Hari Singh died a martyr in 1837 and after the death of Ranjit Singh in 1839 and occupation
of Sikh kingdom by British in 1849. Peshawar passed onto British.

13. Then Sikhs army was made into Hoodson Horse/Sikh/Punjab/etc Regiments of British Army deployed
at Peshawar and fighting Afghanis (across the river Indus). Thus british could keep
the India's border right up to the Khyber pass (across river indus).

After 1947, Pakistani government gave lots of independence to the people of this area (around Peshawar)
in order to keep their rule., as oppose to earlier Sikhs and British who used aggression.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by ramana »

brihaspati wrote:Dean Nelson, the South Asia editor of Telegraph, covers all usual "neutral" bases in his article, but ends it with a subtle but smooth hand-over of all the mess in Afghanistan over to India-Pak.

Afghanistan is a proxy war between India and Pakistan
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... istan.html
Afghanistan is not just the front line in Nato's fight against the Taliban, but also a proxy war between India and Pakistan. Until relations really improve between the nuclear neighbours, Afghanistan will remain another of their battlegrounds – and no safe place for serious investors.
On a similar strangely provocative heading : NYT had the line "Afghanistan Favors India and Denigrates Pakistan By JACK HEALY and ALISSA J. RUBIN Published: October 4, 2011". http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/world ... istan.html


But all this should be read with what General Sir David Richards had been forced to admit almost a year ago : that this war was not about any ordinary "national/economic deprivation" fueled war as proposed by apologists of Islamism - both inside and outside of Islam. In an interview
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... Qaeda.html
he had stated, and his admissions are significant when filtered from the politically correct context he is forced to use in a public interview:
But this war – unlike those of the past – could last up to 30 years.

"Make no mistake," he states with added emphasis. "The global threat from al-Qaeda and its terrorist affiliates is an enduring one and one which, if we let it, will rear its head in states particularly those that are unstable.
In plain words : the winding up of operations in 2011, or even by 2014 - will only be halfway through his envisaged almost generational "30" year mark. Al Qaeda has almost attained the Djinni status - it is there, yet not there, yet there, yet not there. It can do things without being there, or not do things being there. It can not exist or be a minority opinion or a fringe "lunatic" group - yet can manifest in "unstable" states! It is a fringe element yet can exist and survive and continue among the majority for ages and yet dominate such non-fringe, non-lunatic majority groups and even "states".
"The national security of the UK and our allies is, in my judgement, at stake – that is why we are engaged in a global struggle against a pernicious form of ideologically distorted form of Islamic fundamentalism.
In plain words : A global or worldwide struggle is necessary merely to defend the national borders of UK and its allies. In the area where AQ concentrates, who are UK's "allies"? Are they "unstable"? We can guess, but such an admission is after all an admission that war beyond immediate borders are now necessary to merely secure national security. Moreover, the peculiar politically correct turn of phrase is ironic but revealing : Islamic fundamentalism has many different forms apparently, out of which some are "ideologically straight fundamentalisms" and others are "ideologically twisted fundamentalisms" out of which only the AQ form is "pernicious"!
"Our men and women in Afghanistan are fighting to prevent this from spreading. I think there are direct parallels to be made with the bravery of those who risked, and who gave, their lives in the fight against Fascism in the Second World War.
In plain words : ideologically twisted Islamic fundamentalism == fascism
The general subscribes to the notion that such an ideologically-driven adversary cannot be defeated in the traditional sense, and to attempt to do so could be a mistake.

"In conventional war, defeat and victory is very clear cut and is symbolised by troops marching into another nation's capital.

First of all you have to ask: "do we need to defeat it (Islamist militancy)?" in the sense of a clear cut victory, and I would argue that it is unnecessary and would never be achieved."

It is a bold statement and he quickly adds: "But can we contain it to the point that our lives and our children's lives are led securely? I think we can."
He finally admits - ideologically driven adversary cannot be defeated in the traditional sense of outright war only. This is the point that I had tried to drive home in a debate almost two years ago here, which ultimately turned ugly. I had tried to point out that the main reason that the Afghan war strategy - which is being admitted as much by the General here in tha later parts of the interview
- will turn out to be erroneous because of the downplaying or ignoring or dismissing of this ideologically driven angle. Unless the ideology itself is simultaneously targeted - thw are cannot be won.

In comparing with fascism , or the longer term battle that went on with communism - the west never neglected the task of ideologically undermining the two camps. Continuously, assiduously, and a no-holds barred campaign. It is here that they have not taken up the cudgels with Islamism. And the reason that they have failed. Maybe the Marxists won after all - or the surviving anti-Semitism of Christianity of certain types - remained dormant and kicking - to see an ally in fooling the "west" about the not attacking the ideology!

Having realized what they really should have done along with their war campaigns, and their inability or hesitation to take up this immensely challenging ideological effort - the west now plans to establish the idea that all this is about India-Pak onlee - and they should be forced to clean up after wests stomach upsets.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by svinayak »

India plans 'world's most dangerous railroad' from Afghanistan to Iran

India is planning to build what could be the world's most dangerous railroad from Afghanistan's mineral-rich heartland to an Iranian port on the Arabian Sea in attempt to open a new trade route and reduce Kabul's dependence on Pakistan.
Details of the new plan emerged on the eve of the Istanbul conference on security and economic development in Afghanistan in the run-up to the planned withdrawal of American troops in 2014.
Washington has urged India, Pakistan and Afghanistan to co-operate in creating a new 'Silk Road' of trade ties to break the current suspicion which mars political relations and restricts potential trade.
India expects American hostility to its plan, however, because it will bolster Iran's sea capability by developing a major port at Chabahar on the southern tip of the country facing out over the Gulf of Oman.
For India, the prize is a potentially highly lucrative contract to mine Afghanistan's iron reserves, which are estimated to be worth up to $3 trillion – several times the size of India's growing economy – and the strategic advantage of a new trade and logistics route to Afghanistan which bypasses Pakistan.
Despite recent improvements in diplomatic relations between India and Pakistan, trade is still highly restricted and while Afghan imports trickle slowly through Pakistan into India at the Wagah border, between Amritsar and Lahore, Indian exports to Afghanistan through Pakistan are almost non-existent.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by svinayak »

Image
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Arav »

[quote="RajeshA"]Arav ji,

Thanks rajesh ji,

Would like to know from you and others their views on

i) Is presence of American and Nato troops currently in Afghanistan detrimental to Indian interests or their presence is helping us to pursue our goals

2) Withdrawal of American and Nato troops in 2014 is good for India or their presence is more beneficial to us beyond that period
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Arav »

[quote="Acharya"][url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -Iran.html]India plans 'world's most dangerous railroad' from Afghanistan to Iran[/url]

This is thing exactly going through my thoughts, rail connectivity to chahbahar port. If this plan goes as envisaged it will be of great significance. This will reduce Afghanistan dependence on pakistan. India can increase its trade with Afghanistan and CAR. We have to also connect Kandahar to Kabul by rail route. Its good that if this one is built to Indian railway guage.

Pakistan has also signed an agreement to connect its railway line with afghanistan, but its a non starter, neighter they have capital nor locomotives, and PR also uses Indian guage, so they have to rely on us for locos.

IIRC china is also trying to connect Tajikisthan with Kabul. There is rail connectivity between turkmenistan already. we have to connect just kandahar to kabul.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Arav »

Mining can provide good direct and indirect employment and steady revenue to Afghanistan government.

But for this mining activity to be successful along with that rail connectivity, India has to Establishing Industrial Training Institutes (ITIs) to train and develop skilled man power. Mining requires lots of technicians like welders, plumbers, diggers, Heavy Vehicle drivers, Electricians & more. We cannot instantly find skilled people, so we have to start now to train afghan men & women.

Its better to employ local men instead employing Indian man power, there will be lot of resentment to out siders.

China is also a player in mining, but it mostly employs its own people or pakistanis, which afghans might not like.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by ramana »

actually if the mines are realized for first time in its recorded history Afghanistan wont be on subsidy from India or elsewhere.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by svinayak »

Arav wrote:
IIRC china is also trying to connect Tajikisthan with Kabul. There is rail connectivity between turkmenistan already. we have to connect just kandahar to kabul.
Kandahar cannot be touched for the next few decades
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by abhischekcc »

The poppy production of Afghanistan itself can be used for a useful purpose - to produce morphine. This is necessary in many third world countries and India can hit two targets with one stone - reduce narcodollar funding terror, and increase supply of this painkiller to needy countries.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by svinayak »

That product is a monopoly of the western countries
It is a 200 year old business used for propping up western economies during recession
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by RajeshA »

So it would help if Indians scientists discover/produce some herbicide/organism and a distribution mechanism to eradicate poppy-crops.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Pratyush »

Why not legalise the production of poppy crops and consumption of narcotic substances. That alone will take a big bite out of the revenues of Islamo - Fascists in one shot. By removing the huge risk premiums commanded by Cocaine and assorted drugs. Resulting in reduced prices on the street.

In the end it will become just like the Tobacco & Alcohol industry. A known quantity, to be taxed and regulated.
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by RajeshA »

Pratyush ji,

I would rather legalize cannabis. It is illegal in India except for the use in certain religious ceremonies, but the law is not enforced. That is a softer drug.

But poppy can be processed into heroin, which is perhaps the most potent of hard drugs.

Here a graph from the UK journal, The Lancet.
Image

The International Council on Security and Development made a proposal on Poppy Licensing, and 'Poppy for Medicine'!
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by abhischekcc »

Acharya, have you read Amitav Ghosh's Sea of Poppies?
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by abhischekcc »

RajeshA wrote:So it would help if Indians scientists discover/produce some herbicide/organism and a distribution mechanism to eradicate poppy-crops.
I think Russia has such a bug, and I think they released it last year :twisted:
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Re: India / Afghanistan - A New Strategic Relationship

Post by Arav »

ramana wrote:actually if the mines are realized for first time in its recorded history Afghanistan wont be on subsidy from India or elsewhere.
Ramana garu, mine main contention was not afghanistan sustenance, but the rail connectivity. If this rail connetivity is realized and done by India. Then any country in future if wins the mining rights has to accomadate India, as there is no other ideal alternative route to transport other then through chabhar port, in which India has already invested a lot. Also if the rail route is done by india, its added advantage.
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