Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

[Murugan]

“It took Islam almost six centuries to secure a strong foot-hold in Kashmir. After next one hundred years Islam galloped through and overshadowed Hinduism and claimed a majority.”5

http://forum.shiasofkashmir.com/viewtop ... 93129c7f47

This line also shows the greatest fear of many Hindus (considered as Right Wing), the expectation is that this template of what was shown in Paki Punjab will be repeated all across India, and Hinduism will soon be an extinct religion. None in Pakistan or India's left think the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Kashmir or Paki Punjab, NWFP or Balochistan and driving away a large number of Hindus in Bangladesh or Sindh is a crime, in fact it is seen as a positive development.

The expectation is Assam and WB will soon see a repetition of the Bangladesh template.

IMHO, HIndus instead of worrying and becoming defensive, should take cue from the religious shia preachers who preached islam in kashmi, preach tenets of vedic dharma and sanatan dharma to convert people back with same passion islamic preachers had shwon. At least, as a first step, permanently stop the process of conversion using all available resources including all the money of deities, temples and maths.

[Murugan]

Reading some posts by kashmiri shias in the forum, it is very surprising to see converts lauding Iran, Hezbolla and foreigner relgious heads etc while deriding the people and country they had roots. (is this genetic?)

[Lalmohan]

converts are usually the most zealous in rejecting their past

actually a thought occurs to me from reading the TSP dhaga - perhaps it may be a good idea to encourage/promote the history of gandhara and pre-islamic pakistan much more than we do. firstly it showcases brutal islamic conquest of previously civilised lands, and furthermore it gives even more cognitive dissonance to present day pakistanis - perhaps increasing the fissures between the light greens and dark greens

[parsuram]

There are few things that have come to me with a sheer urgency, and needing dissemination, as the foundations of our Hindu civilization. In its essence, Indic civilization represents the future of all human intellectual progress and civilizational ethos. Its alternative, the Judeo-Christian model which has swept the world, is before us, its potential for good entirely exhausted. We have the only alternative. None other exists. Beyond it lies the precipice of islam, now gnawing at whatever it comes in contact with. There is extreme danger for Indic dharmic values, which must be safely averted if we are not to enter another millenium of a dark age. And as usual, the danger presents itself in the most harmless of forms, that of conversions to those Judaic faiths of christianity and islam. As a first step, it is imperitive that we stop these conversions. If the goal is to get out of a hole, then the first thing is to stop digging. After that comes disseminating our values to our own people - people who instinctivly think like us, and in many ways, believe like us. Those are the people we have to embrace, to become one with, and to give to them the heritage that is theirs, it is what they want, and what they will honor and spread as none have done before them in all of time. But before that, they need to be truly accepted, included and embraced, and told, just like Shvetketu, that they are it, they are the essence that makes the whole world, the whole universe run on time. That they can become one with it, that they can, here on earth, do anything. The message of the islamo-christians will fade in the face of the message they can get right at home. I am no good at communicating this stuff - just read Vivekananda, Guru Gobind Singh, many others. It is all there, it just needs to be told.

[harbans]

In its essence, Indic civilization represents the future of all human intellectual progress and civilizational ethos.

Good Post Parasram Ji. Been saying this myself for sometime.

Dharma is not religion but righteousness. That's the closest one can come to describing it's import in English. India is the bastion of the Dharmic. Different thoughts and practises associated with it spawned from this fountainhead. Maybe some party with a better agenda defines it's charter to make India a Dharmic against a Hindu alone nation. Even Xtians and Muslims by leading right lives and conduct can be termed and deemed Dharmic. We may make some progress as a start in cultivating our civilizational ethos in that manner for starters. Indeed it's to be realized we face a crises of sorts..

[Vikas]

The more I read it, the more I believe that Sufi's were the Islamic trojan horses planted in India that opened gates for Barbarians from NW to follow and massacre Hindus later. Why then should I sing there songs and praise them to eons.

[SandeepA]

I dont Islamic hordes even bothered about sending out Trojan horses. Sufism itself probably sprung from bunch of neo-converts who wanted to make the best of a bad book/ideology imposed on them. It was the Persian intellectuals response to accepting an otherwise unacceptable ideology.

[parsuram]

The so called great sufi Nizamuddin persuaded Akbar to impoze Jazia. Sufis are just as barbaric as the rest of the mussalman hoarde. We need to get rid of all these and their poisonous idology. Other than Hindus, Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs (in chronological order) no other theology may be proslytized in India. Period.

[Agnimitra]

The more I read it, the more I believe that Sufi's were the Islamic trojan horses planted in India that opened gates for Barbarians from NW to follow and massacre Hindus later. Why then should I sing there songs and praise them to eons.

Because it could be a valve that works both ways. It depends on who controls that cultural space.

[shiv]

The more I read it, the more I believe that Sufi's were the Islamic trojan horses planted in India that opened gates for Barbarians from NW to follow and massacre Hindus later. Why then should I sing there songs and praise them to eons.

Because it could be a valve that works both ways. It depends on who controls that cultural space.

Excellent observation and I agree. I doubt if Sufism is a deliberately conjured up Trojan horse, but an evolutionary development of being stuck between two competing cultural spaces. A corollary from this observation would be that both competing cultural spaces were powerful enough to create a schism and people had to behave in a way that pleased both sides to live in that schism.

[shiv]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/speci ... age4.shtml

Pakistan



Bonded labour in South Asia is considered the problem in modern slavery affecting the most people. The UN believes 20 million people are enslaved worldwide, the majority of whom are in South Asia.

Gerry Northam visits Pakistan where he meets Laxmi, a woman who was told that she and her husband were bonded to their master until they paid off a supposed debt of 200,000 rupees. When she asked to see proof of that debt, she was beaten.

Another woman, Shanti, tells how her master raped after she threatened to run away, even though she was pregnant.

Twelve years after the government made bonded labour illegal, it is estimated that there are still five million labourers in Pakistan bonded to their employees by debt. There is a central fund to rehabilitate workers like Laxmi but, so far, not one rupee has been spent.

[shiv]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 23,00.html

As Hillary Clinton pays her first visit to Pakistan as Secretary of State, an unfolding hostage crisis will test the Obama Administration's rhetoric on human rights in the region. Officials at the U.S. embassy in Islamabad say at least three landlords have held as many as 170 bonded farmworkers at gunpoint on their estates in the country's southeast Sindh province since late September.

<snip>

A 2004 study by the International Labour Office (ILO) estimated that there are up to a million haari families in Sindh alone, the majority living in conditions of debt bondage, which the U.N. defines as modern-day slavery. Last fall, Pakistan's Daily Times newspaper quoted the labor minister of neighboring Punjab province as saying that landlords hold millions of forced laborers in "private prisons" across the country.

While the nation's 1992 Bonded Labour System Act mandates five-year sentences for violators, Pakistani officials have yet to record a single conviction.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... z1dxV1154g

[shiv]

Pakistan is Islam. Islam is a religion of peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diKIyl_lcOw

[shiv]

Islam respects women. Women are respected in the Islamic republic of Pakistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_syjTvz2A

[shiv]

Pakistan was created as a safe haven for muslims
http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/new ... 161800.htm

Servitude exists in many forms in Pakistan. Over the past two decades, hundreds of thousands of Afghan families � eager to flee 20 years of war and three years of drought � have sought safe haven in Pakistan, only to spend the rest of their lives working to pay off the debts they accumulated to get there. They do so by becoming indentured laborers, often at brick factories, and by sending their children to carpet factories that crave small fingers. Indentured servitude is not only legal but ubiquitous in Pakistan, and servant culture thrives: the wealthy can have a driver, three maids, a cook, and a night watchman for less than $75 a month.
<snip>
Thus, though slavery is technically illegal in Pakistan, the laws are rarely enforced. And since Afghans have no legal status and no papers, there is little to connect them to the protections of the state, even when they serve as slaves in the cities and settled areas.

[RajeshA]

Islam respects women. Women are respected in the Islamic republic of Pakistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_syjTvz2A

For PC, the narrator says at the end that men dominated women there before Islam arrived!

[shiv]

Islam respects women. Women are respected in the Islamic republic of Pakistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_syjTvz2A

For PC, the narrator says at the end that men dominated women there before Islam arrived!

But Islam was needed to call it "respect" for women.

[brihaspati]

There is monumental mental block I guess in understanding Sufism - primarily becuase Hindus try to model other faith approaches through its own traditions. Then of course the uglier sides of Sufism and the raw gory details of its rise are often not public-domain for Hindus or even western educated Hindus.

Since this is not the thread for it, I urge all to study the roots, histories and performances of Sufi movements. If Hindus do want to model it - start thinking of it as Guruvaadi Islaam. The methods are parallel, but the objectives remain Islamization. In fact some of the more radical anti-kaffir moves have come from Sufi leadership - compared to run of the mill Arab desert versions of sunnism. It becomes a more personal, a more passionate, and therefore often more radical and volatile road to the supposed one illaha. No doubt many of the mystic symbolism prevalent in the ME and borrowings from its European-Graeco-Roman borders to India - were coopted. This was a minority of scholars and erudite descendants of past pre-Islamic lineages who perhaps hoped to preserve a vestige of pre-Islamic culture in a sea of Islam. But the resultant effect through the Islamic military theology and slave society ethics was peculiar. It became a vehicle for subversion of non-Islamic societies - because at its core the Islamization drive remains supreme and never compormised upon.

Both Islamism and the Christianity it derived from - has something fundamentally unnerving and confidence lowering in the convert because of the insistence of unverifiable handed down revealed truths - which makes him or her deeply uncertain of the validity of those truths. This leads to the need to convert others to the same belief - for by converting, the already converted reassures himself that he alone was not duped. A new convert is as necessary to strengthen the belief of the converter as it is necessary for more mundane political and imperialistic targets.

Sufism picks up from this need coupled with memories of pre-Islamic "other ways", and in combination it becomes a tool by which the other-ways serve the prupose of strengthening the Islamic need.

This is why Sufis have almost always succummbed to Sunni clerical or mullahcracy absorption and leadership in the end. What people here are proposing - is trying to get at the remnant of those memories of the pre-Islamic "other" but are also forgetting at the same time that at the core seeds the Islamic philosophical vacuum which does not provide any rationalization - through which one will have to pass before the "other" can be reached. This is also the reason that attempts to reverse engineer Sufism have all failed in India, and Persia.

[member_19686]

“It took Islam almost six centuries to secure a strong foot-hold in Kashmir. After next one hundred years Islam galloped through and overshadowed Hinduism and claimed a majority.”5

http://forum.shiasofkashmir.com/viewtop ... 93129c7f47

This line also shows the greatest fear of many Hindus (considered as Right Wing), the expectation is that this template of what was shown in Paki Punjab will be repeated all across India, and Hinduism will soon be an extinct religion. None in Pakistan or India's left think the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Kashmir or Paki Punjab, NWFP or Balochistan and driving away a large number of Hindus in Bangladesh or Sindh is a crime, in fact it is seen as a positive development.

The expectation is Assam and WB will soon see a repetition of the Bangladesh template.

IMHO, HIndus instead of worrying and becoming defensive, should take cue from the religious shia preachers who preached islam in kashmi, preach tenets of vedic dharma and sanatan dharma to convert people back with same passion islamic preachers had shwon. At least, as a first step, permanently stop the process of conversion using all available resources including all the money of deities, temples and maths.

Kashmir was Islamized mainly by force not preaching. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikandar_Butshikan

Of course the shia's won't mention this aspect of how Islam was able to "gallop through" and overshadow Hinduism.

What preaching can you do when Muslims routinely murder such preachers (Rajpal, Pandit Lekh Ram, Swami Shraddhananda for a start), even Xtian missionaries fear them.

What is mentioned above (about right wing fears) is already under way in the border districts of WB and Assam, Deganga is just a start.

The Hindu Samhati website has regular updates of various attacks on Hindus in the border areas almost daily.

[shiv]

The business of "Even Christian Missionaries being scared" is actually symptomatic of the lack of cojones in the world, not just in India. Hindus of course are nurturing negativity about themselves as a matter of policy "We have been dominated and will continue to be dominated, we are going to be screwed" seems to be the message that comes through to a lot of Hindus.

I am not sure if this is being said as an exhortation to do something and to mobilize people or a caterwaul of despair of a dying civilization. To me it sounds like the latter. I find the word "Jaago" quite pathetic. is that all? Alright, I have woken up. Then what? I am awake and I am told that India has been screwed from 700 AD and continues to be screwed. What to do? "Jaago" is the answer. "jaago"? Jaago what? Until the cap on SMSes I used to receive a daily SMS that told me "Jaago" "Two Hindu women raped" Jaago" Four Hindus killed""jaago"

I am shocked and angry. And the frigging SMS says "Jaago". Jaago and what? How much Jaago does a nation that is screwed need? Somehow I believe that these people who tell me to Jaago are dull and uninspiring plodders. They have no ideas. Only wails. And a vocabulary limited to "Jaago" With this sort of "Inspiration" we are going to get nowhere. Either these jaago people are the ultimate cowards or the ultimate dullards. Or both. They can neither inspire nor openly suggest what is to be done. If people need to be inspired, this is not the way to do it.

[SBajwa]

by Brihaspati
There is monumental mental block I guess in understanding Sufism - primarily becuase Hindus try to model other faith approaches through its own traditions. Then of course the uglier sides of Sufism and the raw gory details of its rise are often not public-domain for Hindus or even western educated Hindus.

All sufis only have one goal and that is to subtly convert the subdued defeated people. First by adopting their ways/means and then slowly (over centuries) replacing them with their own.

[Lalmohan]

clans like the khokars held out stubbornly against the invaders for the longest before finally succumbing to the sword of conversion. today, even rabid pak jarnails are from the khokar clan... i wonder, are clan groupings like these, or the rajputs more ameanable to weaning back into the indic fold?

[Sanku]

Jaago and what?

ओरों को भी जगाओ, अभी तो इतना भी कठिन है

(Let me know if you want a translation, though I dont think you do)

[Prem]

Jaago and what?

ओरों को भी जगाओ, अभी तो इतना भी कठिन है
(Let me know if you want a translation, though I dont think you do)

You are no Jaggo if still busy doing discussion . People who have come to conclusion dont need to discuss, rather they go quiet and contemplate course of action. Kal karee so aaj kar, aaj karre so abb. Pseudo secularists karre barbaddi, Marroge Chhittar inko Kubb ? DIEs and Kasais acting like Jamai , Desh hai apna , Par inki Preet parai. Samajh aaayee to jaggo orr jagao e,g some of the ideas discussed here have now been seeded into few main grassroot ,movements in India. Hopefully nature takes it normal course.

[Agnimitra]

Since this is not the thread for it, I urge all to study the roots, histories and performances of Sufi movements. If Hindus do want to model it - start thinking of it as Guruvaadi Islaam. The methods are parallel, but the objectives remain Islamization. In fact some of the more radical anti-kaffir moves have come from Sufi leadership - compared to run of the mill Arab desert versions of sunnism. It becomes a more personal, a more passionate, and therefore often more radical and volatile road to the supposed one illaha. No doubt many of the mystic symbolism prevalent in the ME and borrowings from its European-Graeco-Roman borders to India - were coopted. This was a minority of scholars and erudite descendants of past pre-Islamic lineages who perhaps hoped to preserve a vestige of pre-Islamic culture in a sea of Islam. But the resultant effect through the Islamic military theology and slave society ethics was peculiar. It became a vehicle for subversion of non-Islamic societies - because at its core the Islamization drive remains supreme and never compormised upon.

All true, but my point was that it all depends on who controls that space. The former erudite converts who became Islamist Sufis were mounting the saddle of a grand social engineering experiment. That was mostly because they already had a fine steed in the form of Islamist imperialist machinery, its hard power and its ideological weapon complete with social and individual training routines. In other words, they had an army and a regimented society at their disposal. They just mounted that saddle. Similarly, if the Islamist horse falters and becomes weak, and another better steed is let loose in enemy ideological and physical territory, then the same philosophical space is likely to serve the reverse effect - the cream of Moslem societies will defect and follow the new horse. This is the ideological ashwamedha yajna that needs to be performed.

This can be observed even today, when the Islamist world is not yet down and out. The Sufi space can be used to:

1. Demonstrate that certain dogmas of of Islamism are actually relative truths and not absolute - this is a terrific blow to the mango abdul!
2. Demonstrate that pre-Islamic ontologies merely were cannibalized by celebrated Sufis. But this is not enough. It can and must also be shown that there is a particular twist in Islamism that is incompatible with the essence of all that went previously, and subverts its truth.
3. Sufism has a natural tendency to psychologically isolate the individual, thereby loosening his dependence on the social organization and the sustenance of faith solely by the power of suggestion and association. Thus isolated and freed, he/she regains the choice to turn.
4. Show how several very beloved Sufis in Persia and India were murdered by the Islamist establishment. And that some of these Sufis were Islamic only in disguise, always pushing the line as far as the establishment goes.

So the space that is called "Sufism" in Islamic context is the means to smelt and reforge a religious-cultural form. It has been used to Islamist advantage before, and can work the other way too. It just depends on who is intelligently holding the hammer and tongs, and who owns the furnace.

از آن بـه دیر مـغانـم عزیز می دارند
کـه آتشی که نمیرد همیشه در دل ماست

az aan beh Deyr e Moghaan am aziz midaarad
keh aatashi ke nemirad hamisheh dar del e maast!

"In the Temple of the Magi (Zoroastrian priest), I am loved dearly,
Because the Fire that never dies, in my heart is awake forever!"

-- HAFEZ, whose anthology is the most referred to spiritual text in Iran today. His method and philosophy is completely Zoroastrian, and his work adorns many a Zoroastrian Fire Temple today.

[shiv]

Jaago and what?

ओरों को भी जगाओ, अभी तो इतना भी कठिन है

Sorry Sanku that was pathetic loser business. You wake me up. I wake others up. We are all awake. Then what? We all sit back and lament about our past and continuing losses I'm not joking Sanku. Like a bad joke that I tell that comes back to me after being passed around, this "Jaago" has been going on for too long. I means I have been hearing "Jaago" for decades. Isn't' everyone awake yet?

We spend decades waking people up and don't say what to do. This "jaago" just makes us happy that we are "doing something". I tell you "Jaago" because I think I am doing you and India a big favor by waking you up. The house is burning! Jaago! The tsunami is coming. jaago. Things are going to get a lot worse! Jaago. OK Ok . I am fully awake! Then what? These people who are waking me up don't have a clue. Like automatons with a one line instruction code they are saying "Jaago!" That's all the plan is. Wake up. Wake up.

Let me ask Sanku. Is there one nationalistic TV channel that does a report from the Assam Bangladesh border for national TV? If not how about getting some Jaagos to go and do that. Who is the current MLC from a given area? Which party? Who is the collector? What is the economic state like in that border area? ? What are the police forces doing? I have questions and the answer I get is "jaago". India may be asleep but lots of people are awake. And I have been awake long enough to find that the people who are telling me to wake up are bullshitting. They don't have a clue themselves.

[A_Gupta]

Jaago and tend to your dharma with all your energy. If someone has to tell you what to do, you are not awake to your own dharma.

[shiv]

Jaago and tend to your dharma with all your energy. If someone has to tell you what to do, you are not awake to your own dharma.

Arun, this is a clever answer. But the assumption is that every person is aware of his dharma. In fact if you look at what dharma demands about a killer who kills your brother and rapes your mother, dishonors your sister. You really should be killing him. Not turning the other cheek.

If that is NOT what is your dharma, I would love to hear any other take on it. Dharma demands that you speak up about injustices and conversions, not just strut about mumbling jaago jaago jaago jaago jaago ad nauseam.

[SBajwa]

i wonder, are clan groupings like these, or the rajputs more ameanable to weaning back into the indic fold?

Muslim Rajput and Jats are actually Ranghars. i.e. born out of rape of indian mothers and foreigner fathers.

Then they have been inbreeding over last 5-10 generations (since they converted)., I just heard about a marriage in Multan where a person who had a single son married him to the daughter of his sister as well as daughter of his brother. Imagine the kids of these two girls. We are REALLY FACING INBRED MONSTERS WHO HAVE BEEN FANATICS SUCCESSIVELY THROUGH GENERATIONS. There is no hope but to

1. Educate them.
2. Show them the futility of their cause.

or

1. annihilate them

[shiv]

i wonder, are clan groupings like these, or the rajputs more ameanable to weaning back into the indic fold?

Muslim Rajput and Jats are actually Ranghars. i.e. born out of rape of indian mothers and foreigner fathers.

Then they have been inbreeding over last 5-10 generations (since they converted)., I just heard about a marriage in Multan where a person who had a single son married him to the daughter of his sister as well as daughter of his brother. Imagine the kids of these two girls. We are REALLY FACING INBRED MONSTERS WHO HAVE BEEN FANATICS SUCCESSIVELY THROUGH GENERATIONS. There is no hope but to

1. Educate them.
2. Show them the futility of their cause.

or

1. annihilate them

+1
1. State the problem
2. Suggest solutions

[A_Gupta]

Jaago and tend to your dharma with all your energy. If someone has to tell you what to do, you are not awake to your own dharma.

Arun, this is a clever answer. But the assumption is that every person is aware of his dharma. In fact if you look at what dharma demands about a killer who kills your brother and rapes your mother, dishonors your sister. You really should be killing him. Not turning the other cheek.

If that is NOT what is your dharma, I would love to hear any other take on it. Dharma demands that you speak up about injustices and conversions, not just strut about mumbling jaago jaago jaago jaago jaago ad nauseam.

Yes, dharma demands the truth. And if the situation is as described, you nevertheless cannot go on a jihad rampage in the name of justice. You still have to adhere to the norms of justice.

[Sanku]

Sorry Sanku that was pathetic loser business. You wake me up. I wake others up. We are all awake. Then what?

Once a certain critical mass of people wake up, then things happen on their own. Massive cataclysmic changes.

On their own -- apparently.

I had posted a article stating a research that real tangible practical changes start happening in a society after 20% of its population buys into a philosophy.

Lets get 20% of Indians to buy into the BRF "worldview" -- your question will be automatically answered.

-----------------

If you are awake, and can understand that those asking you to Jaago can do their job better, do help them. That is what is needed right now. Means and ways to wake more people up.

[RajeshA]

I am not sure if this is being said as an exhortation to do something and to mobilize people or a caterwaul of despair of a dying civilization. To me it sounds like the latter. I find the word "Jaago" quite pathetic. is that all? Alright, I have woken up. Then what? I am awake and I am told that India has been screwed from 700 AD and continues to be screwed. What to do? "Jaago" is the answer. "jaago"? Jaago what? Until the cap on SMSes I used to receive a daily SMS that told me "Jaago" "Two Hindu women raped" Jaago" Four Hindus killed""jaago"

I am shocked and angry. And the frigging SMS says "Jaago". Jaago and what? How much Jaago does a nation that is screwed need? Somehow I believe that these people who tell me to Jaago are dull and uninspiring plodders. They have no ideas. Only wails. And a vocabulary limited to "Jaago" With this sort of "Inspiration" we are going to get nowhere. Either these jaago people are the ultimate cowards or the ultimate dullards. Or both. They can neither inspire nor openly suggest what is to be done. If people need to be inspired, this is not the way to do it.

shiv saar,

Those who pass the message "Jaago" may not really have an answer. You're talking about an agenda for action. The "Jaago" messages are just working on truth dissemination, building up the will to act. It is simply a part, the initial part. Consider it the Glasnost part of the Perestroika agenda (of course Gorbachev goofed up the whole thing big time, but that is OT).

I consider the agenda as follows:
1) Awareness

2) Reclaiming the State machinery

3) Instituting 'true' Secularism in India

4) Building up a non-state 15-million strong fighting force of Dharmic monk-soldiers. Something like a cross between Guru-Shishya tradition, RSS, Shaolin Temple and Blackwater (Hope nobody sniggers at this ).

5) Destroying Pakistan

any step that contributes to such an agenda is a worthwhile contribution. Of course this is just my very subjective take on what the agenda can be!

[Lalmohan]

some folks here seem to be proposing radical changes to the constitution...

[RajeshA]

some folks here seem to be proposing radical changes to the constitution...

Lalmohan ji,

if the comment was directed at me, then I would on the contrary. Everything I said is within the Constitution.

[Lalmohan]

no sir, not specifically at you

[Vikas]

Mom wants to visit Ajmer Shareef. Why, because everyone else seems to be doing it.
Her reasoning - God exists in everything so why shun one specific place of worship just because I have historical issues (and remember part of her immediate family had to migrate in horrible conditions from Kashmir in 1990 under threats by Islamic fanatics who were taught in the ideology of ... Sufis)

Now how does one fight this SD idea of God in everything v/s Islamic Trojan horses in the mask of saints. Expand the same emotional quandrum and see how hard it is to convince Hindus about most of these sufi's being hand in glove with Muslim hordes that would have killed,maimed or enslaved our ancestors in the past.
Heck even the most rabid ones are being lionised by no one else but us. I see more Hindus around these Pir Baba's than Muslims.

The Brahmans of the past have been demonised by all and sundry for being too rigid and stiff when it came to religion. One of the reason was that they were trying to protect the culture and soul of India against all the invading forces.

[Lalmohan]

religious leaders lean towards centres of political power, its a symbiotic relationship - each feeds and justifies the other
all cultures, all religions
sufis are no different

[RajeshA]

VikasRaina ji,

Perhaps one can advise her to visit some place dedicated to Ravana and pray there. God exists in Ravana also!

[shiv]

Those who pass the message "Jaago" may not really have an answer.

No they do not have the answer. But they don't even know the question as far as I can tell.

It is very easy to get into a theological debate here and ask what motivates people to have faith in Ajmer Sharif, or why I have personally witnessed women screaming in the agony of childbirth (in Pondicherry) calling out "Muruga! Velankanni Amma" - meaning Krishna and Virgin Mary.

No matter how much I jagao myself I don't really want to get into a debate of whether I should be fretting about Hindus wanting to visit Ajmer Sharif or Hindus who call out to Virgin Mary and Krishna in the same breath. My late father - a die-hard BJP supporter who would fight with my late Kangressi mother had faith in Ajmer Sharif.

If you are a jaago cryer, are you crying about these people who are basically Hindu but are AC/DC when it comes to tenets of faith or are you crying about occupation of border areas of Assam by Bangladeshis and the forced conversions for marriage?

Everyone is crying "jaago" but no one is clear what needs to be addressed. Clearly when it comes to issues of individual faith the fight you have on your hands depends on how many people you want to fight.

Where is the clarity in that? If you don't know why you were woken up, there is a temptation to go back to sleep. And if the wake up call sounds like bullshitting then sleep is the only option. Somehow I suspect that at least some people have a kind of idealistic and narrow view of who "Hindus" are and do not take into account people who are proud to be Hindu but have faith in entities like God men who may appear like frauds to all but a core group of followers.

You see, this is a problem that even people who try and force conversions to Islam and Christianity face in India. India is an equal opportunity market for faith. It is the people who coerce and kill for religion who need to be eliminated. Pseudosecularism lies in the act of agreeing that it is OK to coerce and kill because we are not allowed to question someone's faith and imagining that one must sit back and watch coercion because some religion will get insulted. This in fact is the reason why an entity like Pakistan exists.

For example Paki/Saudi Arabian laws are explained in a very interesting analogy on a site called "religionofpeace.com".

Let’s say that you are playing chess with a 6-year-old boy. Instead of following the same set of rules, however, the child is allowed to make up rules that are preferential to him. One of the rules he decides on is that you aren’t allowed to make any moves on his half of the board, but he is allowed to make moves on yours. Another might be that it is impossible for any of his pieces to be taken.

Now, if the child is winning the game – which is assured by the conditions that he has imposed - is it really something in which he can truly take pride?

The rules that Muslims impose on the “conversion game” are almost exactly like this chess analogy. Other religions are not allowed to operate in Islam’s own territory (ie. preaching their faith and evangelizing) as Muslims are in others. Neither is conversion away from Islam allowed – on penalty of death.