AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 17 Mar 2013 14:40

From link

Events in Italy last month should have alerted the Indian authorities that Rome had no intention of returning the marines Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone to India to stand trial for killing two Indian fishermen off the Kerala coast. Italian President Giorgio Napolitano had given a public assurance to his countrymen that the two marines would be back home unscathed. When they returned to Italy to vote, they were personally received at the airport by Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi. Then Prime Minister Mario Monti also met them. A courageous Italian journalist pointed out that the marines were not exactly heroes kidnapped by a radical group such as the al-Qaeda, as was being portrayed in the media. She was flooded with hate mail.

Shows how Italian politicians, from foreign minister to PM, and also Italian media misdirected discourse in Italy.

According to former Attorney General of India Harish Salve,(link) the deception is shocking and insulting for lawyers defending the case too. It is now a question of prestige and Govt is justified in taking tough steps. The marines acceded to the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court.

A very busy Supreme Court heard their case out of turn, gave substantial relief, quashed proceedings in Kerala, brought it here, let them live in Delhi, was trying to get the government to set up a court and all these questions of United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea(UNCLOS), etc. everything would be gone into.

Even after substantial relief from a very busy honorable Supreme Court of India, the Italians had to fail.

According to Padma Vibhushana Justice Soli Jehangir Sorabjee,a former Attorney-General of India and also reputed in national and international human rights field, (link)

if a party, after obtaining benefit from the court, fails to honour its undertaking it is tantamount to playing a serious fraud on the court itself and is guilty of contempt.
..
Breach of an unconditional undertaking given to the Supreme Court is a sui generis offence viz. playing a fraud on the Supreme Court. It is extremely doubtful if such an offence is covered under the Vienna Convention. It is inconceivable that diplomatic immunity is granted for playing fraud on a court of law and thereby committing the offence of obstructing the course of justice. Assuming that the Vienna Convention confers diplomatic immunity in respect of such an offence, the same can be waived. Requirement of express waiver under the Vienna Convention does mean there cannot be a waiver by necessary implication. It is settled law that a person can waive any benefit or advantage conferred upon it by any statutory provision. The Italian ambassador surely understood the implications of giving an undertaking to the Supreme Court and the consequences of its breach. He voluntarily approached the court without any reservation, pleaded for and obtained concession for the marines of his country and gave a solemn undertaking about their return. In these circumstances, there has been a waiver of diplomatic immunity by necessary implication.

In any view of the matter, the Italian ambassador is precluded from taking the plea of diplomatic immunity by virtue of the doctrine of equitable estoppel which is not a mere technicality but is based on the principle of justice, equity and good conscience as laid down by the Privy Council and our Supreme Court judgments. Having obtained benefit from the Supreme Court because of his undertaking, the ambassador cannot turn around and now be permitted to raise contention about the jurisdiction of the court on any ground. In plain language, the ambassador cannot blow hot and cold and be permitted to have his cake and eat it too.
..
Undertakings solemnly given to the Supreme Court should not be reduced to the level of a waste paper. Our Supreme Court cannot be trifled with by any person, however high he may be. The bottom line is: Act honourably and comply with the undertaking as behoves a civilised government.

What a single case here shows - is that Italians need to be educated to not play serious frauds an also International etiquette. Italians also need to be educated not to turn around and raise issues after pleading and obtaining thus benefits from courts. Indians need to wonder how to educate Italians at all levels - from politicians and media to common god fearing Italians to not indulge in serious frauds, propaganda and to avoid being trigger happy and so on and on.

There should be competitive efforts in India about educating Italians so that Italians can live not in shame of carrying serious frauds in courts but of conducting lifestyle with civilized government.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 17 Mar 2013 18:03

I know it is laughable idea, but I will say it anyway, I feel the best way to deal with this kind of shit is, kidnap these Mofos back to India and present them in the Supreme court with a direct telecast of proceedings to billion+ Indians and also after the end of the proceedings, ask Italian ambassador to pack his bags and leave. I think this is right response. If they think they pulled it off, they should know we can do better.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 17 Mar 2013 19:31

There is never a recourse when the whole events are staged with not even iota of honesty, respect for law, sovereignty , and sovereign commitments.

The first thing about this case is
The jurisdiction is itself in dispute the Italians are saying the incident happened in International waters
India disputes it , is there concrete evidence that It happened in Indian waters?

With our HM and FM being proven hij$&@ why blame if any one is cynical of the system.

LKg and co had ample time to get Mr. Q and also put the G family where it belongs, but did not do.

With no coherence even today in BJP, people expect it transform into a disciplined party some how after elections.
See Karnataka, how they sabotage the party for power, see the way they snipe at NM who is trying something, sushma vs uma bharati vs Govindacharya episodes. Jaswant Singh vs Yashwant Singh is azimuthal to RSS to snipe.

It's a circus to loot mar of the desh. now everybody is so thoroughly sure that judge can be bought .

Balakrishnan case of juvenile appetite for amassing wealth is all to well known as proof.

Tell me where is the silver lining. Criminals are MPs, ministers, police chiefs and now Ex IAF is implicated now that's a hope for not being cynical

Tell me more would love those tales from Indraprasth.

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 17 Mar 2013 21:50

Chaanakya,

The question is - will the govt follow through? It has always been a question, and my feeling is the vigour of the follow through is inversely proportional to the perceived future damage a fugitive may cause in the govts. PoV.

In this case the govt has less to loose than the Quattrocchi case! In fact mms' weak governance will be seen to be stronger by a vigourous follow through in this particular case. As I said - I am hopeful more will be done.

Soli Sorabjee's op-piece has interesting opinions. His case is, the Ambassador can be held liable because he voluntarily abbrogated his right to diplomatic immunity when providing a personal guarantee on behalf of the Italian govt, and hence he has to accept the consequences of any delibrate breach of that assurance.

We obviously cannot jail a 3rd party for crimes committed by the fugitive marines. However as per the retired AG he can be punished for contempt of court (I had mentioned this in my previous post). I do see the SC taking some action in this matter. They wouldn't have prevented him leaving the country else-wise. Hopefully they do convict him of contempt, imprison him (even if for a symbolic 1 day) and then deport him. This guy's career is destroyed, he will forever be the ambassador who lied in court. He can never be an ambassador to any other country, who would believe what he says as ambassador?

Same goes for the word of the Italian govt. Will their word ever hold any value in any future discussions? India should be highlighting this everywhere. At the end of the day inter-govermental candor and honesty greases the wheels of diplomacy, and the Italians just poured sand all over theirs. Their deceit and duplicity has impacted their international integrity. But only if the govt makes a big deal out of it. The Italians would never have dared to do this to any European or North American court. It is for the govt. to make them pay for it. Hopefully they will!

I will not spend time hand-wringing and berating what was done or not done in the past in unrelated matters. If this govt cannot follow through, so be it. Such are the consequences of electing weak leaders!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Mar 2013 21:50

So on Monday it would be Immunity Nd Contempt ( INC) for SC and Indalians.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 17 Mar 2013 21:58

I was thinking of buying a Fiat 500 car but decided against it after this incident.

Do you part, however small to avoid funding these mafia gundas.

I'd boycott a whole lot more of their stuff, but I can't think of anything they produce which I consume.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Mar 2013 22:00

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 021189.cms

Harish Salve who dumped the Italians as legal counsel after they duped the GOI/SC,has stated that he-the ambassador could go to jail.Now the big Q is what will the SC do"The GOI has already CAPITULATED say sources-allegedly thanks to orders from our Roman empress, and will say that the diplomatic liar,who duped the SC has diplo immunity,contrary to Salve's opinion.
Sources also say that the ambassador is NOT coming to court tomorrow and will be represented by his legal counsel.Therefore will he take refuge in the embassy so that he cannot get arrested? That seems to be the Italian solution.The GOI will then declare him persona non grata and he will be expelled-go home in style as a hero actually and get a top Italian award,while the august Supreme Court of India will have been betrayed by the quislings of the UPA esp. its foreign minister .Will the hon. SC then arrest the FM for contempt of court?

What the SC should do is to make it incumbent on the GOI NOT to allow the perjured ambassador to leave the country under ANY circumstances ,that he does not have diplomatic immunity and warn the GOI and its executive that any contra action would invite its wrath.

Naval guards issue: Italian ambassador can be sent to jail, Harish Salve says
PTI | Mar 17, 2013, 07.58 PM IST

Justice has been done, Naval guard's mother says

NEW DELHI: Harish Salve, who quit as Italian government's counsel after it refused to send back two naval guards accused of killing fishermen, feels the Italian ambassador breached a solemn undertaking given to Supreme Court which can take action against the envoy including sending him to jail.

"It is said in the law that even an injunction or undertaking to a court which has no jurisdiction, if breached, you are in contempt," the senior Supreme Court lawyer said.

Asked whether Italian ambassador Daniel Mancini breached the solemn undertaking on ensuring return of the two naval guards to face trial in India and if he is in contempt of the court, Salve said, "Absolutely".

On if he felt that the court will take action against him, Salve said, "... The question is what ... we have to wait and see."

To a question whether the Italian ambassador could end up in jail, Salve told Karan Thapar in Devil's Advocate programme on CNN-IBN, "Theoretically, yes".

About its practical likelihood, he said, "Depends on how they want to deal with him. But they can if they want to send him to jail."

Unhappy over the Italian government's refusal to send back the naval guards charged with the killing of two Indian fishermen, the Supreme Court has restrained Italian ambassador from leaving India without its permission.

A bench headed by the Chief Justice of India has also issued notices to the ambassador and the two naval guards — Massimiliano Lattore and Salvatore Girone — asking them to file their response by March 18.

Salve said he feels that the ambassador will find it "very hard" to explain in the court why he breached a solemn undertaking.

Responding to a query on enforcing action against a person enjoying diplomatic immunity, the senior lawyer said, "Our Constitution commands everybody will act in aid and according to directions of the Supreme Court."

The two naval guards were allowed by the apex court to go to Italy to cast their vote in the elections there after the Italian envoy had given an assurance to send them back.

"Insulted" and "shocked" by Italy's stand on the issue, Salve had quit as counsel for the Italian government.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 17 Mar 2013 22:04

Sources also say that the ambassador is NOT coming to court tomorrow and will be represented by his legal counsel.Therefore will he take refuge in the embassy so that he cannot get arrested?

Actually that's not a bad idea if the arrest warrant is issued and he holes up in the Italian embassy.

Keep the arrest warrant pending and he'll never be able to exit that embassy. Thus without actually arresting him, he will be in jail technically.

Only one more thing needs to be added thereafter - search all vehicles exiting the Italian embassy. Don't search their belongings as that would be breach of diplomatic norms, just search the vehicle for this mofo.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 17 Mar 2013 22:08

Neshant wrote:
Sources also say that the ambassador is NOT coming to court tomorrow and will be represented by his legal counsel.Therefore will he take refuge in the embassy so that he cannot get arrested?
Actually that's not a bad idea if the arrest warrant is issued and he holes up in the Italian embassy.

Keep the arrest warrant pending and he'll never be able to exit that embassy. Thus without actually arresting him, he will be in jail technically.

Only one more thing needs to be added thereafter - search all vehicles exiting the Italian embassy. Don't search their belongings as that would be breach of diplomatic norms, just search the vehicle for this mofo.

no need, keep a look out at the airports, that should be enough.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Mar 2013 22:13

Virupaksha wrote:
Neshant wrote: Actually that's not a bad idea if the arrest warrant is issued and he holes up in the Italian embassy.

Keep the arrest warrant pending and he'll never be able to exit that embassy. Thus without actually arresting him, he will be in jail technically.

Only one more thing needs to be added thereafter - search all vehicles exiting the Italian embassy. Don't search their belongings as that would be breach of diplomatic norms, just search the vehicle for this mofo.
no need, keep a look out at the airports, that should be enough.

What if he escapes through Nepal like the UC mass murderer ?

I think the suggestion of cordoning off the Italian embassy and requesting a search is well considered.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 17 Mar 2013 22:14

Phil, Neshant the retired AG raised the concept of equitable estoppel as a means of defeating the immunity held by the Ambassador. If you recall back in December, when he first submitted himself to the courts, part of the deal with the Kerala high court concerned his immunity waiver.
The other point is the courts will be reluctant to grant any favours to EU states when a similar situation arises, and this needs to be made public if Italy tries to involve their friends.
Finally attaching the FM is a very feasible idea. Khurshid failed to furnish the court with information on the Italian election system at the time the application was made. Was he simply incompetant or complicit.

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 17 Mar 2013 22:21

Why not just wait for the SC ruling?

If it lets him go we'll have a 100 pages of WTF hand wringing, and if it convicts him of contempt, we'll have a 100 pages of "this is what we should do" - should he choose to seek to escape within the Italian embassy premises.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Mar 2013 22:27

Neshant wrote:
Sources also say that the ambassador is NOT coming to court tomorrow and will be represented by his legal counsel.Therefore will he take refuge in the embassy so that he cannot get arrested?
Actually that's not a bad idea if the arrest warrant is issued and he holes up in the Italian embassy.

Keep the arrest warrant pending and he'll never be able to exit that embassy. Thus without actually arresting him, he will be in jail technically.

Only one more thing needs to be added thereafter - search all vehicles exiting the Italian embassy. Don't search their belongings as that would be breach of diplomatic norms, just search the vehicle for this mofo.

The water pipes to the Italian Embassy can also burst for some reason! The roads leading to the Embassy can be cut off due to road construction works. The bijli can be cut off.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Mar 2013 22:31

कुल करनी के कारनै, हंसा गया बिगोय।
तब कुल काको लाजि, चारि पांव का होय॥

कबीर कहते हैं कि अपने परिवार की मर्यादा के लिये आदमी ने अपने आपको बिगाड़ लिया वरना वह तो हंस था। उस कुल की मर्यादा का तब क्या होगा जब परमार्थ और सत्संग के बिना जब भविष्य में उसे पशु बनना पड़ेगा।

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Mar 2013 22:48

Harish Salve statement is a gauntlet thrown before SC. If diplomatic relations are broken off with Italy as a result of jailed diplomat the money pipeline into Italy from Indalians would be destroyed. may be there could be some good in this afterall.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 18 Mar 2013 02:10

Chaanakya ji, from some cases that i have read (kanoondaatcom) 'Quashing proceedings' as in the case of the Kerala court also implies quashing of the Chargesheet filed. They would have to appoint a new team and file charges all over again. So technically to the Italians that would imply no legal charge sheet has been filed over a year. Since you have a better idea about this, would like to know if that is the case here too. It does seem the Italians are implying this from media reports.

Also the VDR has been messed up so the controversy regarding the position remains. However last year i had found easy legal ways of telling the position through mandatory logs etc on maintained on board merchant vessels and posted the same on BRF. Seems (from TOI reports) the department in this case MMD (Mercantile marine dept) only went for a routine safety kind of inspection on board the Enrique. The VDR was taken but found damaged for some reason.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 18 Mar 2013 02:32

Italian marines row: Killer's mother says 'justice' has been done, everything 'fine'

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 18 Mar 2013 02:43

Simple pooch the brilliant FM babu's lead by super ex babu MMS Did not even do due diligence as to wether Italians have to go to Italy to vote or can vote in Italian embassy in Nai delli.
how many Italians in India have voted staying in India kind of statistics which BR posters researched with in few minutes, all this indicates to what

Gross incompetency go present regime
Out right defrauding of nation willingly and complicity in intent.
SC being full of dumb judges who did not even ask the council for defendants to show it is absolutely
required by italian law that they be present in body in Italy to vote

Even better Congo leaders experts in proxy voting could have assured they send Italians of the east or royals of Italy ruling India would hand deliver the secret ballot.

A comedy most cruel on Indians in way we deserve it because as nation we don't value Indian citizenship go to any Indian embassy to find it first hand.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 18 Mar 2013 04:42

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... -comic-con

Note the first substantive suggestion , as distinct from political verbiage , that the UPA gover nment made in order to “punish” Italy, after Prime Minister Manmohan Singh decreed that Rome had taken the “unacceptable” decision to give safe haven to marines accused of murder by violating a parole given by India’s Supreme Court. The Supreme Court acted on an assurance from Italy’s ambassador in Delhi Daniele Mancini, through an affidavit, that the marines would return to India. What did UPA “threaten” to do? It wanted to expel Mancini.

This would have been the perfect complicit coup between Delhi and Rome. Mancini is the one ranking Italian on Indian soil who can be held accountable. The UPA wanted him to escape through false dust. Once he left India, Congress could have officially begun to chase him with the same dedication and diligence it has shown in pursuit of Bofors-accused Ottavio Quattrochi. A clearly upset Supreme Court, acting on the intervention of Subramaniam Swamy, sabotaged this neat ploy; otherwise Mancini would have been dancing all the way back to another posting. His replacement would have arrived in a couple of months, with minimum fanfare and maximum noise about the larger interests of Indo-Italian relations. The dust would settle. Game over.

Since Italy is famous for the harlequin, a stock comic character in its commedia dell’Arte , it is perfectly logical that this staged drama included a large dollop of farce. There has been no bigger joke in recent times than the Italian argument before the Supreme Court that the marines were desperately needed at home to vote in Italy’s national elections. Clearly, we have all been taught a lie in school: democracy did not begin in Greece, but in Italy. Rome’s passionate zeal for the ballot box is such that it will go to any extent, including prevarication before a Supreme Court, to protect a marine’s right to vote.

The surprise is that the Supreme Court proved so gullible. Let us assume, for a moment, that the future of Italy did indeed rest on whether the marines voted for either a somber jester called Beppe Grillo, leader of the Five Star Movement, or Silvio Berlusconi, who practices at night what the Kama Sutra merely preaches by day. The marines could have sent in their decision by postal ballot. How did Mancini and his fellow Italians in the Delhi mission vote? Did the Italian government send business class tickets to Mancini so that he could go to a booth in his neighbourhood parish? Or should we believe that Italian boys, like the young marines, never vote without consulting their mamma; and mamma never discusses what Berlusconi has been up to on the phone?

The Supreme Court gave marines four weeks of furlough . That does seem a bit excessive for a duty that takes a day. Has the court, in this case, operating on two sets of law, one for Italians and one for Indians? The marines were permitted to go home for Christmas last year. By this precedence, every Indian accused of murder , not to mention lesser crimes like rape, should be allowed to go home to mummy for Holi, Easter, Id and Diwali.

As events unfold, questions bubble up. One of the big mysteries of the last union cabinet reshuffle was the sudden departure of veteran Congress leader S M Krishna from the external affairs ministry. True, he had goofed up once, when he began reading out the wrong speech at the United Nations. But this is nothing on the scale of home minister Sushil Shinde, who performed a similar feat in Parliament, and in addition makes sure that not a week passes without adequate entertainment for reporters. The Prime Minister had no grounds for complaint against Krishna. Krishna faithfully implemented the PM’s soft line on Pakistan, despite the usual sequence of provocations. If Krishna was less than outstanding in handling his portfolio, he was not incompetent either. Moreover, he had not committed any political faux pas that would have hurt Congress chances in the coming Karnataka elections, as Beni Prasad Verma did in Uttar Pradesh. Why was Krishna dropped?

Could it be that Congress needed a pliable foreign minister who could be trusted not only to collude with Italy in a delicate pirouette, but also to hold his tongue for all time in the future?

Since no one explains, these matters can only dwell in the realm of speculation. But we can say one thing with sufficient authority. India’s foreign policy is now fashioned by the idealism of that great American philosopher and public intellectual, Groucho Marx. As Groucho once said, ‘I have principles! And if you don’t like them, I have others…’

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 18 Mar 2013 04:55

Catholic diplomacy to Italian marines’ rescue
By Cithara Paul - NEW DELHI
Published: 17th Mar 2013 09:53:38 AM

A little faith goes a long way. The unsaid irony in the Italian Marines controversy is that the two fishermen who were killed were Catholics and so were the accused.

Express has learnt that ‘Catholic diplomacy’— secret visits by priests from Rome, flip flops by a powerful cardinal from Kerala, the role played by a former Indian ambassador to Italy who reportedly connected all the players including the Union Government and the Catholic Church — might have played a decisive role in the ‘home delivery’ of the two Italian marines, and is now engaged in bringing out an amicable end to the contested issue that has affected diplomatic relations between both countries.

“The Italians may have cocked a snook at us by refusing to hand over the two marines. But it has also given Indians a lesson or two in ‘Catholic diplomacy’. When normal routes of diplomacy fail, try the ‘faith’ route,’’ said an MEA official.

And no one represents this underplay of faith and intercession than the Syro-Malabar Church Major Archbishop — Cardinal George Alencherry.

It may have been a sheer coincidence that Alencherry was in Rome on February 25, when the Italian Government went back on its Ambassador’s promise to the Indian Government on the return of the Marines for trial. He was there to select the new Pope, but his presence there brought some old memories back – ones that the Catholic Church would prefer to forget.

It was Alenchery, head of the Kerala-based Syro-Malabar Church-India’s largest and richest Catholic church, who had made the controversial statement that he will try his best to “pacify the situation’’.

http://newindianexpress.com/thesundayst ... 504490.ece

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 18 Mar 2013 04:55

Catholic diplomacy to Italian marines’ rescue
By Cithara Paul - NEW DELHI
Published: 17th Mar 2013 09:53:38 AM

A little faith goes a long way. The unsaid irony in the Italian Marines controversy is that the two fishermen who were killed were Catholics and so were the accused.

Express has learnt that ‘Catholic diplomacy’— secret visits by priests from Rome, flip flops by a powerful cardinal from Kerala, the role played by a former Indian ambassador to Italy who reportedly connected all the players including the Union Government and the Catholic Church — might have played a decisive role in the ‘home delivery’ of the two Italian marines, and is now engaged in bringing out an amicable end to the contested issue that has affected diplomatic relations between both countries.

“The Italians may have cocked a snook at us by refusing to hand over the two marines. But it has also given Indians a lesson or two in ‘Catholic diplomacy’. When normal routes of diplomacy fail, try the ‘faith’ route,’’ said an MEA official.

And no one represents this underplay of faith and intercession than the Syro-Malabar Church Major Archbishop — Cardinal George Alencherry.

It may have been a sheer coincidence that Alencherry was in Rome on February 25, when the Italian Government went back on its Ambassador’s promise to the Indian Government on the return of the Marines for trial. He was there to select the new Pope, but his presence there brought some old memories back – ones that the Catholic Church would prefer to forget.

It was Alenchery, head of the Kerala-based Syro-Malabar Church-India’s largest and richest Catholic church, who had made the controversial statement that he will try his best to “pacify the situation’’.

http://newindianexpress.com/thesundayst ... 504490.ece

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Mar 2013 07:59

Hmm trying to connect the dots via unnamed source and now looking for scapegoats , this time its the secret Cardinal visit from Rome that convinced the GOI.

So every time GOI finds who to blame other then itself

Italian Marine goes scott free blame it on Rome and Indian Cardinals
Terrorist Target India blame it on Pakistan and do nothing about it
Corruption in Arms deal blame it on Arms Dealer and catch your own chief
Farmers dying in India drinking Poison , blame it on nature and poverty.
Scams involving thousands of crores of Rs involving big business house politican call it Zero Loss

GOI sees problem in every body around it including its own citizen except for themself.

I guess the only thing now is to blame People of India for electing them they would conveniently blame it on Fate of India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Mar 2013 09:21

In a weekly newsmag,Yashwant Sinha alleges that 10 days before the announcement of the "home delivery" of the pistola boys,he was informed that they weren't coming back and that the entire episode was to ensure a spat between Italy and India so that the AW scandal could be covered up by non-cooperation of Italy.That's exactly what many on BR have been saying.It has all been pre-planned and we are just seeing the contours of the conspiracy."Requiem in Pacem" Indian diplomacy.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 18 Mar 2013 10:59

Philip wrote:In a weekly newsmag,Yashwant Sinha alleges that 10 days before the announcement of the "home delivery" of the pistola boys,he was informed that they weren't coming back....

Hmm.. and what did Yashwant Sinha-saab did the with the information? He had two full work weeks to take this up.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Mar 2013 11:16

Even MJ Akbar can't digest this.

Falling for yet another comic con

he Supreme Court acted on an assurance from Italy’s ambassador in Delhi Daniele Mancini, through an affidavit, that the marines would return to India. What did UPA “threaten” to do? It wanted to expel Mancini.

This would have been the perfect complicit coup between Delhi and Rome. Mancini is the one ranking Italian on Indian soil who can be held accountable. The UPA wanted him to escape through false dust. Once he left India, Congress could have officially begun to chase him with the same dedication and diligence it has shown in pursuit of Bofors-accused Ottavio Quattrochi.

This Govt seems to be a Govt of EU and not India.

A clearly upset Supreme Court, acting on the intervention of Subramaniam Swamy, sabotaged this neat ploy; otherwise Mancini would have been dancing all the way back to another posting. His replacement would have arrived in a couple of months, with minimum fanfare and maximum noise about the larger interests of Indo-Italian relations. The dust would settle. Game over.

And one comment on Just Kabir, who has given many secular judgements whose daughter's NGO receives funds from an entity in Denmark which also funds Teesta.

The surprise is that the Supreme Court proved so gullible.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 18 Mar 2013 12:33

Shalav wrote:Why not just wait for the SC ruling?

If it lets him go we'll have a 100 pages of WTF hand wringing, and if it convicts him of contempt, we'll have a 100 pages of "this is what we should do" - should he choose to seek to escape within the Italian embassy premises.

You are assuming that they are interested in punishing the ambassador for contempt. Big assumption after they let them go knowing they won't come back.

I'm going to assume that they are compromised in each and every case involving India and foreign interests until proved otherwise.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Mar 2013 12:52

Italian envoy has no diplomatic immunity, can't leave India till April 2: SC

ByDhananjay Mahapatra, TNN | Mar 18, 2013, 12.12 PM IST

NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court on Monday pulled up Italian ambassador Daniele Mancini for breaching an undertaking given to the apex court and restrained him from leaving India till April 2, when it will hear the matter again.

The SC said a contempt of court charge would be made out only if the ambassador fails to bring back the marines by March 22.

Meanwhile, Italy has written to India saying no authority can restrict movement of its ambassador as such conditions will violate the Vienna Convention immunity to diplomats.

When the counsel for ambassador said the apex court could trust him not to run away from India, the SC bench said it no longer trusted him.

"You have lost our trust," the apex court said.

The SC also refused to buy the diplomatic immunity claimed by the Italian ambassador, who said he had given the undertaking on behalf of the Italy government.

The apex court said it had permitted the marines to go home on sovereign guarantee after the Italy government and its ambassador submitted to the SC jurisdiction.

The SC said it would be unacceptable to argue diplomatic immunity after voluntarily subjecting to court's jurisdiction.

The Union government told the court that it has rejected March 15 note verbale from Italian embassy seeking full freedom of movement for its ambassador, who had been restrained by apex court from leaving India.

Referring to Italian note verbale telling India that no authority in India should impede movement of the ambassador in violation of diplomatic immunity, the Centre said the Italy government appears unaware of the constitutional scheme under which the government functions in India.

Italian ambassador Daniele Mancini had personally negotiated the release on bail of the two marines last month, enabling them to return to Italy to vote in the country's general election.

After a year of disagreement over their fate between Rome and New Delhi, the Italian government announced last Monday that it would renege on its commitment to send the men back and they would remain at home.
...................
...................

Italy insists the marines should be prosecuted in their home country because the shootings involved an Italian-flagged vessel in international waters, but India says the killings took place in waters under its jurisdiction.

Relations between the two countries have also been soured by corruption allegations surrounding a $748 million deal for the purchase of 12 Italian helicopters which the Indian government is now threatening to scrap.

partha · Post by **partha** » 18 Mar 2013 12:56

Sachin wrote:
Philip wrote:In a weekly newsmag,Yashwant Sinha alleges that 10 days before the announcement of the "home delivery" of the pistola boys,he was informed that they weren't coming back....
Hmm.. and what did Yashwant Sinha-saab did the with the information? He had two full work weeks to take this up.

+1. This is like our netas saying "I have proof against so and so's corruption and will expose him at the right time". If you have the proof then what are you bloody waiting for?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Mar 2013 13:09

Well,what could YS or anyone else do? Wait for confirmation,as the mafiosos had already flown the coop?

However,this only adds extra fuel to the fire as we can now see that the cleverly hatched conspiracy by the Italians,both at home and abroad,is now exposed in all its shamefulness.To safeguard India's dignity and self respect,only the SC is left.The govt. has betrayed the nation,preferring the interests of "Rome" to that of "Home".Critics would say what else could we expect when we the people of India voted in a coailtion led by a latter day Roman empress,with a govt. headed by an ex-IMF babu puppet PM to boot!

Wait for the "great escape".There is no way that the conspirators are going to let Mancini taste the delectable food of Tihar.The Italians will try and smuggle him out of India.Every vehicle going in or coming out of the Italian embassy must be checked.We could have a look-alike going in and Mancini in disguise coming out with a false identity and make-up ready to flee!

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 18 Mar 2013 13:41

x-post

Neshant wrote:I'm trying to avoid buying all things made or affiliate with Italy but can't think of anything other than Fiat cars. I won't be buying a Fiat 500.

What other stuff does Italy make?

Around 140 large Italian companies are active in India. The major ones to have invested in India are Fiat Auto, Heinz Italia, FIOlA, Italcementi, Necchi Compressori, Perfetti, Lavazza, Fata Hunter Engineering, ENI, SAI India, Isagro (Asia) Agrochemicals, Piaggio, Impreglio, SEA Deutzfahr Group, Finmeccanica and Ferrero.

List of Italian companies in India

Alitalia
Ansaldo Caldaie Boilers
Banca Monte Dei Paschi Di Siena SPA
Banca Popolare Di Vicenza
Banco Popolare Di Verona E Novara
Benetton India
Bisazza India
Boss Profiles
Carraro India
Fata Hunter India
Fiat India
Graziano Trasmissioni
Italia Marittima
New Holland Tractors (India)
Perfetti Van Melle India
Piaggio Vehicles
Rayban Sun Optics India
Same Deutz-Fahr (SDF)
ST Microelectronics
Tecnimont ICB
Value Partners
Welspun Zucchi Textiles
Zuari Cement (Italcementi Group)
Finmeccanica
Fincantieri

Major Eyetalian companies operating in india - highlighted some at least i am familiar with and come across in day to day life.

The subsequent course of action is quite clear for indians,
inform your circles to simply boycott them , and better yet when ever you get a chance tell their reps, resalers and distributers the reason for boycott matter of facted'ly to their face .

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Mar 2013 13:43

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1426422

shiv wrote:The following article gives a precise explanation of how Agusta Westland came into the picture. I think fmr CAS Tyagi is clean
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19969

In summary:

1. Air HQ wanted minimum altitude of 6000 m for VIP helo , but PMO said that VIPs had never been taken over 4500 m which was enough and lower requirements would lead to more helos entering the competition
2. PMO to give a list of exact requirements
3. The helo would replace Mi 17 and Mi 17 does not go above 4500 m so that limit was adequate
4. Single vendor to be avoided
5. Earlier op reqmts of 6 km and 5 km reduced to 4.5 km and 2 km in order to avoid single vendor situation
6. SPG wanted an increase in helo numbers from 8 to 12
7. Three companies -- makers of Mi-172, Sikorsky which made the S-92 helicopters and Augusta Westland's AWA101 -- responded to the RFP.
8. All companies had to sign "No bribe" contract
9. Mi 172 withdrawn as they refused to sign, leaving Sikorsky and Agusta Westland
10. According to Air Force sources S-92 was found to be non-compliant on four counts:

It could not reach 15000 feet without maximum power
Its 'hover out of ground effect' wasn't sufficient
Its drift down altitude was not meeting the requirement
Missile airborne warning system wasn't up to the mark
11. AgustaWestland with its three engines was a bonus, according to Air Force test pilots since one engine failure still meant it had two to fall back upon.
12. Apart from Tyagi "Several top officials including the then National Security Advisor (NSA) MK Narayanan (now Governor of West Bengal), then Special Protection Group (SPG) Chief BV Wanchoo (now Governor of Goa), then Defence Secretary Ajai Vikram Singh and current Defence Secretary Shashikant Sharma, who was then Joint Secretary (air), were all involved in deciding the specifications that allowed AgustaWestland to enter the competition. " helped to make the decisions

If the marines thing blows over, I think Agusta Westland is on track IMHO

So how does the whole picture look, Augustus Westland gets bought with maino family getting bribe money, the bribe scandal starts surfacing, and letting marines go the famila pacifies italians plus a new controversy gets kicked up taking the attention of media plus polarising white europeans in favour of italians against Bharatvarsh so western media also goes easy on this bribery scandal?

As a secondary ACM Tyagi gets implicated giving con-media another incident to take public attention away from Augusta Westland case?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Mar 2013 14:10

Years ago,I started a "boycott US/Buy US products last" campaign when the US imposed sanctions against us after the P-2 Nuclear tests.I got one organisation/body to boycott a particular popular product made by a US
MNC,which has many def. companies under its wing.The speed with which the country GM flew down to talk to me was illuminating! It worked for some time,but we relaxed later on when the US came to heel.

Boycotting Italian products until the marines return or Indian honour restored,is a worthwhile national campaign.Let social media first spread the word.Then it can take to the streets.

Javee · Post by **Javee** » 18 Mar 2013 14:36

While we are at it, we should also boycott anything to do with Ferrari. We should've blocked them from racing for painting the Navy flag or atleast have a group of people protest and gherao their team bus or something.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 18 Mar 2013 15:22

Italian products like;
1. Fiat ---which doesnt sell well in India anyways.
2. Pizza----this is a good , healthy boycott.
3. Ferrari.
4. Holidays to Italy.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 18 Mar 2013 15:25

I can't say I consume any products from that big list of Italian companies above. Not that I'm aware of anyways. I might have been remotely interested in using products from 2 companies on that list. But I'll be sure to avoid it like the plague now.

Meanwhile even as we are making an effort on this end, the idiots at ASSOCHAM had the bright idea of hosting the Italian ambassador. Someone needs to have a word with the moron who runs the organization. This from a couple of days ago :

“We have been consistent since day one, supremacy of the international law to be re-assessed, in last few days we tried and put several proposals to Indian government and want this to be to resolve by consensual meanings”, said Mancini while inaugurating the Assocham India Entrepreneurship summit.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 18 Mar 2013 15:38

Guys!! The diplomatic immunity to the ambassador is binding and would have to be enforced. In Indian system the Ambassador enjoys this immunity of behest of the President who meets an ambassador personally and accredits the ambassador. No official does that on 'on behalf of President in his absence' drill which will be binding too if the officer is Gazetted for that purpose.

It is a sovereign guarantee from the sovereign himself. I am afraid if Indian courts accepted guarantees by a person or body which falls out of it's jurisdiction then it's the court's problem. Legally the fine thing to read is that only other party which fell inside the jurisdiction i.e. GoI had neither submitted an affidavit nor was it consulted. It didn't oppose because it was not called upon to do so.

During the Xmas break time. Honorable High Court of Kerala had sought advise from Union Government. A sovereign promise in writing was issued by Foreign Minister of Italy to Minister of external affairs of India. After that Union Government issued a NOC even though Government of Kerala opposed the move tooth and nail. This made GOI a party. If the Honorable High Court had not called upon Union of India then I am sure the marines would not have returned.

I shudder to think in this manner but legally it seems the second move for votes was choreographed. By not making GoI a party to this move I am afraid our courts have no other option but to conduct hearing in absentia.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 18 Mar 2013 17:11

Sri wrote:If the Honorable High Court had not called upon Union of India then I am sure the marines would not have returned.

To add on. Hon.HC of Kerala had put up a much more strict bail clause. A huge amount of money (6 crores?) had to be kept aside as surety. And two local people also had to stand as the guarantee for the safe return of the marines. Bail was not given on empty promises. My personal thoughts are that there was pressure on Hon. HC of Kerala as well. But when the court gave the bail it used all possibile rights available for it and put in very strict bail conditions. To be very honest, I dont think Oomen Chandy & Co. would find it very difficult to blame the Hon HC of Kerala if the marines had made their escape during X'Mas time. "See we @ government did every thing, but you see the High Court gave them bail. What can we do?", would be the refrain.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 18 Mar 2013 17:22

http://www.firstpost.com/world/behind-t ... 60560.html

Sorry if it was posted earlier. R. Jagannanthan calls it racism on the part of Italy.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 18 Mar 2013 18:12

Saar, its a done deal. The accused have got away with the active collusion of GoI. There is nothing that will be done by GoI to get them back. GoI signed a deal with Italy as late as Nov 2012 (per the article posted above) that citizens of the respective countries will be spend prison time in their home country and not in teh country where the crime happened. Clearly this was done while GoI is fully aware of the fishermen-Italian marines case. Additionally GoI not setting up a special court inspite of SC repeatedly asking it to do so is another pointer to high level collusion.
The whole issue has already dropped off the news headlines. Everyhing is back to status quo now. Back to regular programming.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 18 Mar 2013 19:25

This is a rolling list of Italian companies in India, feel free to update. I may quote this list on this thread every now an then, just so people can see it every few pages.

Lilo wrote:x-post

Neshant wrote:I'm trying to avoid buying all things made or affiliate with Italy but can't think of anything other than Fiat cars. I won't be buying a Fiat 500.

What other stuff does Italy make?

Around 140 large Italian companies are active in India. The major ones to have invested in India are Fiat Auto, Heinz Italia, FIOlA, Italcementi, Necchi Compressori, Perfetti, Lavazza, Fata Hunter Engineering, ENI, SAI India, Isagro (Asia) Agrochemicals, Piaggio, Impreglio, SEA Deutzfahr Group, Finmeccanica and Ferrero.

List of Italian companies in India

Alitalia
Ansaldo Caldaie Boilers
Banca Monte Dei Paschi Di Siena SPA
Banca Popolare Di Vicenza
Banco Popolare Di Verona E Novara
Benetton India
Bisazza India
Boss Profiles
Carraro India
Fata Hunter India
Fiat India
Graziano Trasmissioni
Italia Marittima
New Holland Tractors (India)
Perfetti Van Melle India
Piaggio Vehicles
Rayban Sun Optics India
Same Deutz-Fahr (SDF)
ST Microelectronics
Tecnimont ICB
Value Partners
Welspun Zucchi Textiles
Zuari Cement (Italcementi Group)
Finmeccanica
Fincantieri

Major Eyetalian companies operating in india - highlighted some at least i am familiar with and come across in day to day life.

The subsequent course of action is quite clear for indians,
inform your circles to simply boycott them , and better yet when ever you get a chance tell their reps, resalers and distributers the reason for boycott matter of facted'ly to their face .

Quoting myself from earlier in this thread:

Baikul wrote:....................
Please let me know if there is an error in the list below; feel free to add to it:

I'll start with Fiat. I am in the market for a midsize car; Fiat can get f*cked. List of Fiat brands: Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Fiat, Lancia, Maserati; Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep–20-percent stake. Please not the brands you would traditionally not associate with Fiat: Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep. This is the India website: http://www.fiat-india.com

Piaggio is another automotive brand; however it makes commercial vehicles, the sales of which most individual buyers may not be able to impact. This is the India website: http://www.piaggio.co.in/category/home.aspx

Perfetti is a confectionary brand in India. It makes Apenliebe, Big Babol, Centerfresh, Chocoliebe, Chlordent, Happydent and Mentos. This is the India website: http://www.perfettivanmelle.in