Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

[abhik]

But the prototype launchers for Indian missiles (including Prahaar/Pragati) have always been open.

Not sure what you're getting at but Prahaar/Pragati should be getting the same or similar canister system that the AAD has. Refer:- http://youtu.be/T4xdCmApF_A?t=1m18s

[shaun]

The Brahmos chief's interview is nothing but like old wine in a new bottle. As expected, we still don't have 100% capability to build where as Russians have , "What we want is that 100 percent of the missile should be manufactured in India and 100 percent to be manufactured in Russia " and "in Russia, you already have a 100 percent capability". The export countries have been identified years back and its still being reviewed .!!

[Austin]

If you read the interview Brahmos Corp is sticking to its original agreement where 50:50 were suppose to be made in India and Russia. The 100 % capability is something that came up later as orders grew

Right now we make every thing barring the engine , even the RF Seeker has been indigenous.

Dr Pillai mentioned that the engine would be http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20100827/160360409.html

The Indian-Russian venture BrahMos Aerospace Ltd. plans to produce engines for Brahmos missiles in India, CEO Sivathanu Pillai said on Friday.

The engines will be produced at the Brahmos plant in the state of Kerala in southeastern India, Pillai said. In two years its production volumes will exceed the manufacturing capabilities of the plant in Russia's Orenburg which currently produces the engines.

[vic]

Present indigenisation is only 15% of the missile

[Austin]

Present indigenisation is only 15% of the missile

Source ?

At the least it will be 50 % as in the interview it says India makes 50 %

[vic]

There was interview by DRDO chief in Geopolitics, too lazy to search for the link.

[shaun]

This JV looks like licence production of Yakhont family of cruise missiles which is "Indianized" ,anyway the air launched version of Brahmos is 3M51 Alfa (P-900) ALCM or its Kh-61 yakhont ( Russian designations confusing) or both are same ?? were those ever test fired ??

[John]

But the prototype launchers for Indian missiles (including Prahaar/Pragati) have always been open.

Not sure what you're getting at but Prahaar/Pragati should be getting the same or similar canister system that the AAD has. Refer:- http://youtu.be/T4xdCmApF_A?t=1m18s

Abhik AAD is not cold launched that is simply a missile launched from a missile launcher.

[abhik]

^^^
A canister system doesn't necessary mean its "cold launched".

[John]

I know but this was continuation of discussion by roy who said canisterized missile would not left outside i thought he was referring to missile stored in pressurized canister.

[member_22733]

Here is another WTF news from Ajai Sukhla (I know he is a much criticized person on this forum, but this is very critical info):
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2014/08/i ... ts-in.html

The DRDO confirms that the rockets, filled with highly combustible propellant, were despatched on a commercial airline, Korean Air, for trials in Israel. After the rocket motors reached Seoul --- Korean Air’s global hub, from where they were to be routed onwards to Tel Aviv --- the launch of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza on July 8 caused Korean Air to cancel all flights to Tel Aviv. Fighting intensified after Israeli ground forces invaded Gaza on July 17.

We ship a critical defence technology using a commercial airliner? What.....??????!

[Pratyush]

^^^

If that is the case. I am sure that the shippers did not bother to study the Shippers liability. In case of shipping such items.

[tushar_m]

One thing to take from ajay shukla's article is that we are making the rocket motor & missile structure.

just put the seeker on that & Ashwin SAM system of 150-200 KM range is good to go(although missile structure are different n seeker tech is no joke)

[sohamn]

Its irresponsible to send top notch missile components via commercial airlines. Next time why bother, send it by air china - this will avoid trouble for the Chinese agents to spy on indian R&D. Let make it ultra easy for them next time.

[negi]

Korean air route is a Chankian way to thwart a hijack attempt.

[deejay]

Korean air route is a Chankian way to thwart a hijack attempt.

May be, in idea that is. In execution it was quite stupid.

[Singha]

forget about rockets filled with massive amt of propellant, legally one cannot even ship stuff like chlorine used in consumer water filtration products without following specific procedures and only some shippers handle the additional paperwork needed for such air freight. some airlines also do not carry these cargo I think..or maybe they do but on dedicated cargo planes not as filler cargo on passenger planes. people who work in chemical labs and plants in india are quite familiar with all this.

koreans must be really friendly to india to be carting around rockets like this !!

http://www.nyu.edu/mail.services/pdf/Sh ... erials.pdf

[srin]

Hmm - trials in Israel ? So, the missile isn't being built here ?

PS: Edited after i read the article fully

[deejay]

The carriage of Dangerous Goods such as propellants in this case would be covered by ICAO regulations (In India DGCA CAR Section 11 is meant for this and Series B specifically deals with the Operations). Every airline evolves procedures for this and gets certificates for it or opts to not carry dangerous goods. http://www.dgca.nic.in/rules/car-ind.htm

I am unaware of any major airline not being certified for this in India or abroad.

If the Koreans could take it I am sure El Al could (there is a flight from Mumbai to Tel Aviv for sure). There is also Air India and Jet Airways flying the route and I know both are Dangerous Goods certified. Jet Airways and Air India also show flights from Hyderabad. There are flights from Delhi, Chennai and other important airports of at least one Indian Operator either with 01 stop or 02 or occasionally direct.

Was the idea of using an Air Force transporter considered or the IAF and DRDO are not talking.

[shaun]

b8 should have been actually tested in India with INS kolkata. how authentic is that info frm BS anyway??

[vic]

On more relevant things, Did anybody notice the tweet of Saurav Jha which says that there will be Akash mark-2 with semi active seeker. So I assume, the various variants of Akash missile would be:-

Akash Mark-1 Phase 1 Range 27km

Akash Mark-1 Phase 2 Range 35km

Akash Mark-2 Phase 1 Range ?? say 45km

[Karan M]

Semiactive seeker seems like a low cost way to improve Akash performance against futuristic/low RCS targets & make it future proof. Basically, use the seeker in the missile to home in on low RCS targets leveraging the radar RF & not having to rely on an expensive seeker in the missile itself. Ideal would be a trimode seeker, but again, price would increase.

[SSridhar]

The Javelin Challenge - Edit, The Hindu

[John]

Semiactive seeker seems like a low cost way to improve Akash performance against futuristic/low RCS targets & make it future proof. Basically, use the seeker in the missile to home in on low RCS targets leveraging the radar RF & not having to rely on an expensive seeker in the missile itself. Ideal would be a trimode seeker, but again, price would increase.

I think part of reason is we already have Shtil-1 so it quite easy to reverse engineer and fit that seeker for Akash rather than trying to devolop active seeker from scratch.

[Singha]

imo the proposed 120km army version of Barak is headed for trouble looking at delays in the basic Barak8 now.

plus Israel will continue to charge a steep price for the front section of missile and associated MF star radar.
such costs might be ok for a few billion dollar ships but not ok for dozens of IA/IAF SAM units.

we need a lot more SAMs than we need Brahmos.

we better activate Plan-B and work on
1) mating the Akash to a powerful 1st stage booster borrowed from other prog like cutoff AAD
2) semi active homing seeker for endgame
3) ideally use the Pragati type box launcher or Shourya type tube launcher for sealing and ruggedness.
4) reduce the warhead size from the massive 60kg to 25kg. the 9m96e has a 24kg warhead. this might improve agility and acceleration.
this will be our desi S300 for a start and permit higher volumes of production, as well as reuse of the same Akash radar systems with no need for shoehorning the mfstar in.

you heard it here first. we need rugged meat like this and akash can do it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMO0F19Gmpk

[tushar_m]

^^^ Or we can just make a SAM version of our own ready to be deployed (Dr saraswat) phase I BMD system.

The missile has a range of 150-200 km (AAD)
PAD being liquid fueled on one stage may not be used & we could go for the new PDV with 150km altitude (definitely long range ).
Maybe a very long range SAM is ready for its new role in Indian Armed Forces.

[abhik]

The Akash system we have in service today represents what our technology base was 10-15 years ago. Quite a bit of progress has been made since but unfortunately it doesn't seem to have been focused on keeping the Akash updated. Take for example, on the radar front, a couple of ASEA surveillance radars have already been developed. A modernized ASEA Rajendra fire control radar will complete the generational leap in wrt to the Akash's sensors. And one would imagine the same setup could be used in the Navy's ships too replacing the MFSTAR. One the missile front we could mate the dual-pulse motor developed for the Barak-8 and mate it to an Astra 'front-end'. Heck we could even ditch the Russian seeker and go for a simpler passive seeker. We would have a good analogue to the ESSM which is the standard US navy medium range missile.

[Karan M]

Semiactive seeker seems like a low cost way to improve Akash performance against futuristic/low RCS targets & make it future proof. Basically, use the seeker in the missile to home in on low RCS targets leveraging the radar RF & not having to rely on an expensive seeker in the missile itself. Ideal would be a trimode seeker, but again, price would increase.

I think part of reason is we already have Shtil-1 so it quite easy to reverse engineer and fit that seeker for Akash rather than trying to devolop active seeker from scratch.

I kind of doubt whether we will reverse engineer Shtil-1 tech; making our own design may be much easier than figuring out russian blackboxes and sw. But hey, whatever works, if it gets done!

[Vipul]

India conducts successful ‘Akash’ trial for 2nd day.

For the second day in a row, India today successfully conducted trial of its indigenously developed surface-to-air ‘Akash’ missile, which has a strike range of 25 km, from a test range in Odisha as part of a user trial by the Air Force.

“The sophisticated Akash missile was test-fired from launch complex-3 of the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur at about 1.20 PM,” Defence sources here said.

Describing the trials as “fully successful”, ITR Director MVKV Prasad said, “The entire exercise was carried out as part of a user trial by Indian Air Force.”

It was a repeat test of yesterday’s trial, he said. The trial of Akash conducted yesterday was also successful.

‘Akash’ is a medium range surface-to-air anti-aircraft defence system developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as part of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme.

While the Air Force version has already been inducted, the Army version is in the final stage of induction into the armed forces, the sources said.

The missile has a strike range of 25 km and can carry a warhead of 60 kgs. It has the capability to target aircraft up to 30 km away and is packed with a battery that can track and attack several targets simultaneously, they said.

With its capability to neutralise aerial targets like fighter jets, cruise missiles and air-to-surface missiles, defence experts compare ‘Akash’ to the MIM-104 Patriot surface-to-air missile system of the USA.

Besides yesterday, the missile was last test-fired from the same base on June 19.

[Singha]

^^^ Or we can just make a SAM version of our own ready to be deployed (Dr saraswat) phase I BMD system.

The missile has a range of 150-200 km (AAD)
PAD being liquid fueled on one stage may not be used & we could go for the new PDV with 150km altitude (definitely long range ).
Maybe a very long range SAM is ready for its new role in Indian Armed Forces.

yes that is a good idea and could be integrated into akash radars. but the airframe might need certain mods and strengthening to tolerate the higher g-loads of SAM role vs ABM role...nothing that is too hard. we already have that knowledge bank from akash and trishul.

a LRSAM-ER model could also be built in limited numbers to snipe at enemy C3I/tanker ac from long range....ideally the Shourya vehicle should release 4 active homing astra's near the target from 120,000ft and let them independently dive on target..release could be after 1000km of mother missile flight

[Ranjani Brow]

x-post from artillery thread.

indian missile secrets out in the open
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 76037.html

Around 10 months ago, India had showcased its newly developed Pragati tactical surface-to-surface missile at the International Aerospace and Defence Exhibition ADEX-2013 in South Korea.

But in a major security lapse, the missile didn't make its journey back home and lay unguarded, vulnerable and dangerously exposed for an entire month at a South Korean port.

Second, the logistical handling of the missile in South Korea was outsourced to a local agent of Chinese-origin.

wtf. Major lapse. It should be thoroughly investigated.

Saurav Jha on Twitter
"Ok, DRDO news time. DRDO confirms that the Pragati sent to S.Korea was basically a mockup with the innards devoid of any sub-systems."

[member_22539]

^What a shame, another opportunity lost for haters to bash DRDO.

[Austin]

BrahMos: The Brahmastra of India

It has been my good fortune to have been associated with the Ministry of Defence in the early eighties as spokesperson for the Ministry, the Armed Forces and the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation was then headed by Dr. Raja Ramanna, He was followed by Dr Arunachalam and Dr. A P J Abdul Kalam. Those were the days when leading arms manufacturing countries in the West were reluctant to sell defence equipment to India, which was a non-aligned country. The Government of India was doing its best to develop weapons within the country.

When the Defence Minister of the Soviet Union visited India in the early eighties and pointed out that we are mostly purchasing equipment from the West, our Defence Minister R. Venkataraman pointed out that when we asked for Soviet equipment, and we were told that we had to wait for years till the demands from Soviet allies were met. In response, the Soviet Defence Minister invited Venkataraman to visit the Soviet Union and choose the equipment that we need and it would be supplied to us on a priority basis.

I had the opportunity to visit the Soviet Union along with Venkataraman, the representatives from the Defence Ministry, the Service Headquarters and Dr. Arunachalam. There was a display of aircraft and other equipment. The Soviet Union agreed to sell India on rupee payment any weapon that we desired. Dr Arunachalam explored contacts for conducting weapons development in India.

A few months later, I recall a visit to Hyderabad when Defence Minister R. Venkataraman was briefed by the DRDL about its effort to develop a missile. We were witness to a basic exercise as to how a missile was to be launched. It hardly made any news, but the Defence Minister soon gave approval to the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme.

The sanctioned programme, in 1983, was for the development of a tactical surface to surface missile of 150 kilometer range for the Army, later named as Prithvi, ii) a multi-role missile system for the Army , Navy and the Air Force , later named as Trishul, iii) a surface to air missile with 25 kilometer range for the Army and the Air Force, later named Akash, iv) an advanced anti-tank missile for the Army , later named Nag, and a re-entry test vehicle to develop re-entry technology , later named as Agni.

The importance of missiles in modern warfare was established following the Persian Gulf War which was fought from 2nd August 1990 to 28 February 1991. The visuals received in India through the CNN and BBC made us aware that the war was mostly fought through the firing of missiles.

The development of Indian missiles got a boost. Initially we received assistance from the Russian Organisation NPOM in the development of Akash. The collaboration was a success, and on December 5, 1995, the BrahMos was established, and there was no looking backwards. Dr A. Sivathanu Pillai became the founder CEO and MD of BrahMos Aerospace with A. G. Lenov, Director General of NPOM of Russia as a collaborator. The share capital investment in the establishment was 50.5 percent from India and 49.5 percent from Russia.

There has been no looking back since then.

Today, we have been able to develop the BRAHMOS system as a multiple platforms, multiple targets, one missile system approach, making it the world's only universal supersonic cruise missile, capable of launching from land, sea and air against various targets on land and sea. Today, the BrahMos has orders worth US D six billion.

The book narrates the story how the BrahMos, starting from scratch, has evolved into a universal missile. It is now a multi-platform, multi-target, multi-role and multi-trajectory capable missile. All this has been achieved in a record time of just less than a decade, when the missile has emerged from the drawing boards to its deployment by the frontline forces. The young scientists and technology community the country has been able to build, as the author has pointed out, must take on tasks to make India stronger and stronger.

Dr Sivathanu Pillai has pointed out in his book that in the 18th century, a whole new and different dimension was given for the use of gunpowder in the Mysore kingdom by Hyder Ali and later by Tipu Sultan. The invention that Hyder Ali made rockets using gun powder as the charge in a professional manner. Tipu Sultan perfected and produced huge quantities of rockets. He also introduced rocket launchers, each one of which fired three rockets at a time. Tipu paved the way for missile warfare throughout the world.

The book deserves to be on the shelf in every school and college in the country. As Dr. A P J Abdul Kalam says in his preface, the book is a valuable narration to young scientists, technologists, techno-managers and the youth and experienced who aspire to excel in this competitive world.

The story that Sivathanu Pillai narrates is exciting. It describes the journey of BrahMos which made India a world leader in missile technology with the fastest, high precision supersonic cruise missile, realised in a short time with a novel collaborative effort between India and Russia. It is the first time experience in an unexplored path to demonstrate "we can do it".

Today India has a Brahmastra to meet any threat that we may face.

Book Review: The Path Unexplored (The success story of world's best supersonic cruise missile) by A. Sivathanu Pillai. Pages 278. Pentagon Press, Rs. 995/-

Mr. I. Ramamohan Rao is a former Principal Information Officer to the Government of India and currently Chief Editor (Print), ANI.

[NRao]

France rejigs proposal to fit into PM Modi’s defence sector vision

[srai]

The Akash system we have in service today represents what our technology base was 10-15 years ago. Quite a bit of progress has been made since but unfortunately it doesn't seem to have been focused on keeping the Akash updated. Take for example, on the radar front, a couple of ASEA surveillance radars have already been developed. A modernized ASEA Rajendra fire control radar will complete the generational leap in wrt to the Akash's sensors. And one would imagine the same setup could be used in the Navy's ships too replacing the MFSTAR. One the missile front we could mate the dual-pulse motor developed for the Barak-8 and mate it to an Astra 'front-end'. Heck we could even ditch the Russian seeker and go for a simpler passive seeker. We would have a good analogue to the ESSM which is the standard US navy medium range missile.

That's the price one has to pay to perfect a system and get it into operational service. Rigours of testing for service induction is very demanding in the Indian context. Now that Akash Mk.1 is being inducted in large quantities DRDO can look to integrate other sub-systems they have most likely been developing in parallel. There is 30-years of improvements to look forward to.

[Austin]

Enemies Stand Helpless Against BrahMos Missile - BrahMos Aerospace Chief

MOSCOW, August 20 (RIA Novosti) - A supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, developed jointly by Russia and India, leaves any enemy helpless as no effective protection against the BrahMos has been created so far, Sudhir Mishra, the new head of the BrahMos Aerospace Corporation told Rossiya Segodnya International Information Agency.

“Supersonic speed is the BrahMos’ major advantage. An enemy has yet no effective protection against such missiles. After the missile is launched, all the enemy can do is run. In fact, he has even no time to escape. That is why this is a very promising weapon. And it has no alternatives in the world so far,” Mishra said in an interview Tuesday adding that “even if any other country succeeds one day in creating missiles with similar characteristics, we will be a way ahead already.”

The BrahMos Aerospace chief said also that a number of countries are currently interested in the project, which may pave the way for the BrahMos’ exports in the future.

“It will be possible to export the BrahMos only to friendly nations, determined by the governments of India and Russia. Currently, many states are interested in our missiles. As soon as our governments decide on where to export we will be ready for deliveries,” Mishra stressed.

[member_20453]

I for one do not support the Maitri project either, its pretty useless, the Akash can be easily tinkered and fired from cells on frigates and destroyer, a new active radar seeker and few changes to the airframe is all we need, it has already proven itself in shooting low flying targets. It can also defend out to a longer range and maneuvering targets.

I think this would only pay off in our ability adapt missiles to various needs.

[Philip]

The failure of developing a tri-service Akash is puzzling.When the missile was declared a success some years ago,one mentioned that a naval variant should be developed asap.This was even before the B-8 "JV" was ever signed. Truly the DRDO works in mysterious ways.We now have our most modern world class frontline stealth warship (USNI had a piece on it) without any SAM system!

Brahmos is an outstanding success and a perfect example of cooperation between both JV partners. It has given the IN and the other two services,IAF shortly,an unmatched strike capability,the envy of great powers.
If the hypersonic and BMos-M version are prusued with the same zeal as the current variants,we would have a clear decade lead in such systems by 2020.

What one would also like to see is a series of large cruiser class surface combatants (of at least 6) to escort our carrier and amphib task forces.We will have in the future at least 3 CVs and 4 amhpib flat tops which will serve us for at least 3-4 decades.These warships will need exceptionally capable LR SAMs and anti-missile systems,perhaps even BMD capable missiles as on USN warships. These heavy CGs of 15-18000t at least ,should be able to carry a cocktail of hundreds of BMD missiles,LR SAMs,anti-missile BPDMS plus LR anti-ship land attack missiles like the sub-launched K-15 which has been perfected,apart from BMos variants,Klub series,etc. One design which could be examined is the old "arsenal ship" discarded by the US. Russia's nuclear powered Kirov class BCGs are unique but such a warship would perhaps be too expensive for the IN.Equipped with 2-3 heavy multi-role helos and extra UAVs,their integral air component would extend the search area and defensive zone of the warship.The Chinese have perfected their anti-carrier BM.This future IN CG would be equipped with both a BMD system as well as our own K-15s and 1500km+ ranged Nirbhay cruise missiles,which could even carry an N-warhead.

[alexis]

Can Astra seeker be used in Akash? Is any such project underway?

[Singha]

the astra seeker is imported from agat. until we can succeed in making this seeker domestically, we would not be in position to enlarge the aperture and power to akash dimension to truly take advantage of the much higher packaging volume the akash nose offers vs astra.
difference could be 20km effective range vs 50km effective range...which means a sea-akash could go active quite early permitting the MFSTAR to release it and focus on guiding other missiles, perhaps peridically sending position updates of the target through two-way datalink for the akash to co-relate with its own seeker data.

atleast thats how the next-gen anti-swarm SAMs are supposed to work....lot of active seeker and datalink tech is assumed.

Akash is a hefty 750kg missile and perhaps inappropriate as a ship guided SRSAM as-is to replace barak1 and fill out new ships. Trishul was supposed to be it.