J & K news and discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25370
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Rajdeep wrote: The people are now clearly motivated to take harsh and foolish steps.
I fear our govt is fighting a lost battle against these savage acts who see no reason to co-exist with us.
Rajdeep, we must recognize that the modus operandi in Kashmir has now changed. Clearly, the ISI is trying to create an impression that the common folks are in the forefront leading an agitation that is not too violent but just short of boiling over. This will put the police under enormous stress and there will be likely occasional excesses that will then be latched on to malign India and increase hatred. This will also act as a perfect cover for Indian WKKs like Suhasini Haider, whose article I have posted above, to undermine India and forcing India to talks. The recognition escapes the Suhasinis that the whole episode is being orchestrated from Pakistan.

But, why do you say what you said ? Those who 'see no reason to co-exist with us' are perfectly entitled to leave the country, legally or illegally. The unwilling-to-live-in-India-Kashmiris have an easy option to cross over into the Land of Purest where honey, milk and water overflow and green flags flutter in cool breeze. Nobody is holding them back.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21234
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Prem »

="SSridhar"]Kashmir: Finding the face of the protestor - Suhasini Haider
Is she Indian or Pakistani or simly RNI? Those KSM who dont consider themselves Indians must not whine when wages of sins come due.
Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3021
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Dipanker »

Prem wrote:
="SSridhar"]Kashmir: Finding the face of the protestor - Suhasini Haider
Is she Indian or Pakistani or simly RNI? Those KSM who dont consider themselves Indians must not whine when wages of sins come due.
AFAIK she is Subramanyam Swamy's daughter married to Salman Haider's son.
Nihat
BRFite
Posts: 1340
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 13:35

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Nihat »

The unwilling-to-live-in-India-Kashmiris have an easy option to cross over into the Land of Purest where honey, milk and water overflows and green flags flutter in cool breeze. Nobody is holding them back.
Precisely, since these people dislodged Shia's , Buddhists , Hindus and Sikhs from the valley , its about time GoI dislodged them. Smuggle them across the LoC and treat them s infiltrators is they claw back. These few thousands and ruined the lives of lakhs of Kashmiris, those who are desirious of peace but are pushed into protests by these pseudo-terrorists.

Perhaps its time the SOG made a come back and some of these instigators "dissapeared" because clearly they won't understand rational dialouge and peaceful protests relating to legitimate greivances.
Rajdeep
BRFite
Posts: 491
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 20:48

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rajdeep »

Salutations brothers,

I fail to understand what is our IB doing all these years? It all seems downhill for us ever since I can remember.
There are no moral victories to speak about, let alone any realistic goals being accomplished by India in J&K.
The only thing is that we have managed so far is to hold on to a half severed head infected by gangrene of politico-islam spread by Pakistan. Even when Pakistan is so weak, India is not able to take any concrete steps to quench the rebellion.
Anindya
BRFite
Posts: 1539
Joined: 02 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Anindya »

Suhasini's blog url is below - feel free to leave comments. Dont know what the moderation policies are, though. Two points here:
- Hindu in Malini Parthasarathy's article and here too have pushed hard to reduce India's sovereignty in Kashmir
- Suhasini is part of the Balusa cabal - which Raman-sir has commented upon

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/author/218/ ... aidar.html
sourab_c
BRFite
Posts: 187
Joined: 14 Feb 2009 18:07
Location: around

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sourab_c »

We are bringing up a very important issue here wherein the solution to this whole situation lies itself- Lack of ground intelligence.

Look, it can not be easy for any normal human being to be asked for an ID as soon as they step out of their homes. People do get agitated. What we really need is a strong network of ground intelligence which ensures security in the region without having to piss Kashmiris off with these redundant ID checks.

IA has been mostly successful in curbing down external infiltration. The problem remains internally. We need to target the few anti-nationals rather than targeting the whole of Kashmir. Let us give them an opportunity to live on a normal life while keeping up the offensive against the anti-nationals.

CRPF on the streets is not helping at all.
Ramesh
BRFite
Posts: 277
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 21:10

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Ramesh »

Look, it can not be easy for any normal human being to be asked for an ID as soon as they step out of their homes.
People are not asked for IDs as soon as they step out of their homes. Infact, it is not asked till something suspicious is noticed.
My very simplistic view is that the problem is being overblown. Please consider the following:
1. How much of an area is controlled by these people?
2. No. of people killed in firing compared to number of people killed in India everyday in road accidents? Everytime media highlights A teenager killed etc. The question to be asked is what was he doing there? Unfortunately nobody seems to be asking that question. From when has throwing stones become a democratic norm?
3. Compare the no. of active terrorist in J&K. Assume each has an AK. Now try guessing the number of weapons in the UP,Bihar, MP etc And I am not even counting the maoist. Minor inconvenience for GOI.
Why is our english media indulging in this psy ops as if all is lost in kashmir? Is it not tilling the land on somebody's behalf so that the plant of second partition germinate and take firm root? Acres of forest land has been wasted on Godhra, why even one tenth of it is not devoted to the kashmiri Pandits? Are they sons of a lesser god?
I am against civilians killed in police firing but why don't people see things in perspective.
Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7899
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Anujan »

^^^^

This picture puts the whole "Barbaric Indian army killing peaceful mob peacefully stoning police picket" news in perspective. Sucks to be that crouching guy

Image
Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6828
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Vikas »

sourab_c wrote:We are bringing up a very important issue here wherein the solution to this whole situation lies itself- Lack of ground intelligence.

Look, it can not be easy for any normal human being to be asked for an ID as soon as they step out of their homes. People do get agitated. What we really need is a strong network of ground intelligence which ensures security in the region without having to piss Kashmiris off with these redundant ID checks.
CRPF on the streets is not helping at all.
Are you sure about the ID Part? My family recently traveled to Srinagar and around and stayed there. No one asked them for a ID.

Even if that was true, I happen to travel to Poonch few years back and at one point, we were asked to show our Photo ID's. Turns out it was SOP since terrorism in J&K started. I didn't see those who travel daily on these routes picking up stones and pelting on security forces. Heck when I enter my office I have to show my ID everyday. Someone quickly give me a stone!
CRPF is there because state govt has requested for it.
So lets not buy this non-sense from KM's. Let the peace return and GoI will be more than willing to call back its security forces.
Chandragupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3469
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 15:26
Location: Kingdom of My Fair Lady

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Chandragupta »

All these WKK P-sec dhimmi journos are successfully influencing public opinions. Yesterday in a chat with friends, several commented on the 'futility' of keeping Kashmir with India, "if they don't want to be with us, **** them, let them go". They have anger against the Kashmiris for wanting to separate but they have got it all wrong partly because the propaganda by such journos & partly because of the lack of any strategic sense. The longer this stoning drama goes on, the number of Indians who think like that will increase me thinks. :-? It is time the AFs took off the velvet glove & let the iron fist strike in full fury.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

dont you think indians need a bit more strategic education?
a significant number of people i come across are seriously stupid when it comes to the bigger picture - defence, economy, you name it
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25370
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SSridhar »

sourab_c wrote:Look, it can not be easy for any normal human being to be asked for an ID as soon as they step out of their homes.
Why is it not easy ? In many countries of the world, people are expected to carry some form of ID when they step out of their homes, even under normal & peaceful circumstances. It is certainly so in the Islamic West Asian countries and also true in Pakistan, two places to which the Kashmiris nowadays turn to for inspiration. Besides, when the whole place is in turmoil and when everyone knows they have to carry some form of ID, they had better carry that. What is there to debate in this ?
niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5538
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by niran »

Ashu wrote: Why is our english media indulging in this psy ops as if all is lost in kashmir? Is it not tilling the land on somebody's behalf so that the plant of second partition germinate and take firm root? Acres of forest land has been wasted on Godhra, why even one tenth of it is not devoted to the kashmiri Pandits? Are they sons of a lesser god?
I am against civilians killed in police firing but why don't people see things in perspective.
every Human wants to be remembered after his/her death, fundamental trait onlee,
in English they call it "Leaving a Legacy Behind" Dr.MMS has one foot in his grave,
he had already made known his wish to leave lasting legacy, what better legacy to
leave than "He gave Cashmere to Casmeries" this is a buildup/ engineering of public
opinion. Just wait and see, next 15 August there shall be heart wrenching drama
and an announcement. JMT
writing about Kashmiri Pandits, do not sell, moreover it brings the ire of those in power,
it is all about moolah and making more moolah. IMVVHO KPs will have to unite, form a party and at least get 15 MPs elected, this way they can be the king maker a la Laloo/Moolayam, or unite and create a fuss, a la Jat community regarding "Gotra"
Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 9118
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sachin »

Lalmohan wrote:a significant number of people i come across are seriously stupid when it comes to the bigger picture - defence, economy, you name it
Amen to that. Not to derail the thread. And I dont think the system in its current level allows people to think beyond small things. Infact "researching" into some thing other than their day to day life activities itself is generally avoided. If I get my salary, can reach my office, have a roof over my head; things are pretty fine. Having a small political view, a party to support and going for voting by itself means I am leading a happy life.

I dont remember where I read this. It seems in 1857 the major reason for the sepoys to get routed was the fact that none of their leaders had a bigger picture of things ;). Their leaders were either lower rung Indian officers (VCOs) or some sort of small time kings and chieftains. Where as their opponents were generals who knew India like the back of their palms, knew where exactly their forces were present and how best to coordinate them.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10205
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

The longer this stoning drama goes on, the number of Indians who think like that will increase me thinks
IIRC, this is what even i was thinking!!

Im certain that if we had the DDM of today in 89-90, Kashmir would have been with Pak today and so, even if a fraction of the 89 like sustained disturbances occur now, the clamor to give away K-valley and buy peace will be deafening!!
Rajdeep
BRFite
Posts: 491
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 20:48

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rajdeep »

Lalmohan wrote:dont you think indians need a bit more strategic education?
a significant number of people i come across are seriously stupid when it comes to the bigger picture - defence, economy, you name it
Dont blame the people, blame the lack of education on the same.
Such kind of issues are not of prime importance especially when you have saas bahu, all the reality shows going on TV. No news channel's coverage of J&K does any justice.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

don't disagree Rajdeep, however i have met plenty of so called intelligent business people who haven't the faintest idea - either about the threat from pakistan and moreover china, or that national highways are not just for them to go shopping at high speed unmolested from SDRE traffic... yadda yadda... don't want to derail this into an education thread now, so will desist
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3235
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Ambar »

I have simple plan to deal with these stone throwing chimps : Unemployment and poverty are huge issues in central Indian states,and that's where Naxalism thrives.Hire a few thousand of them with decent perks,pick the ones with best eye sight and Ambrose like arms and take them to the Kashmir valley.Arm them with stones and let them loose on those 'protesters', every hit should get additional incentives. Now thats what i would call killing two birds with a 'stone' (pun intended!).
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

economics are the key to ending the rioting
take away the source of free funding and suddenly rozi-roti will be more important than stoning
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6865
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

What a stunning spectacle. At a time when India should be united against these stone-pelting traitors and their external sponsors, the fear we have is against our own elites who want to give it away. Even a sinking TSP finds a way of scording over us SDREs. That Haider puke made my stomach churn in shame that such filthy w%^&es are give a podium to spread their poison.
Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6828
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Vikas »

A part of the blame I guess also lies with local crisis management team. Why are they not able to strangulate this flow of money to stone-pelters.
How hard it is to know the source of this Fasaad and just stamp it under the boot. But Nooooo!
Too many people have vested interest in letting this rot fester. Why stop the good times when they are rolling in. Few more crores from GoI as free money and who would not love it.
Country, strategic decision, bigger picture is for idle fellows and internet warriors.
It is a fact that these stone pelter's are no admirer of Sh.MMS or India. Unless someone takes the bull by the horn and destroys the financial base of the terrorists and KM leaders, we will keep hearing these stories every few months with WKK and DDM trying their level best to hand over J&K to TSP.
It is said that there are no free lunches but for KM's it is free breakfast , lunch and Dinner courtesy GoI.
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9418
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vijayk »

Regarding Suhasini Haidar's article, you have to look at the mixture of liberalism and anti-national and traitorous forces. She is married into a family and she is a part of the anti-national forces and henceforth is promoted by Prannay Roy/NDTV.

http://www.ofbjp.org/news/0798/0023.html
Title: Why Salman Haidar was recalled?
The "secret" minutes of the meeting, which
discussed Haidar's role in messing up the
extradition of Anees Ibrahim, a proclaimed
offender in the Mumbai serial bombing case,

found its way into Vajpayee's office and
sealed the High Commissioner's fate a few days
ago.

The meeting on February 3, presided over by
the then external affairs minister, Pranab
Mukherjee, analysed the reasons why India
could not lay its hands on Ibrahim, brother of
mafia don, Dawood Ibrahim,
although the
Bahrain government held him in custody for
more than a fortnight pending an Indian
extradition request.
According to the minutes, Haidar unilaterally
decided that the special emissary need not
proceed to Bahrain.
At the meeting convened by
Mukherjee subsequently on February 3, Bhatia
complained "that the decision taken by him
(Bhatia) that the joint secretary (Gulf
division) should be sent to Bahrain had been
changed the same day, but that he (Bhatia) had
not been informed about this".
Mukherjee cleared the proposal with then Prime
Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao. But once again,
Haidar sabotaged the proposal.
More damaging, during his few months as High
Commissioner, Haidar is said to have attempted
to dismantle a Special Kashmir Unit there,
which has been engaged in Kashmir-related
activities in the UK, which are not entirely
overt. The move was, however, resisted by
South Block.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_in ... ak_1427089
At this time of crisis, the governments of the two countries must cooperate with each other in bringing help to the afflicted. They must rise above the doubts and suspicions that have kept us apart for so long," the Balusa Group, which works for peace between India and Pakistan, said in a statement.

The statement issued by former Indian foreign secretary Salman Haider and Pakistan's former national security advisor Mahmud Ali Durrani, maintained that this emergency could "open a new window of opportunity for a better relationship" between the two countries.

Haider is the India convenor of Balusa Group while Durrani is the Pakistan convenor.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10205
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

Wow, so even Salman Haider was/is a D-man?

The depressing news about our "elites" just keeps on coming relentlessly..
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21234
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Prem »

CRamS wrote:What a stunning spectacle. At a time when India should be united against these stone-pelting traitors and their external sponsors, the fear we have is against our own elites who want to give it away. Even a sinking TSP finds a way of scording over us SDREs. That Haider puke made my stomach churn in shame that such filthy w%^&es are give a podium to spread their poison.
Remember a saint said that a convert is not onlee one less of us but alos an enemy one more in conduct and wishing all the worst to us. Its not a Kashmiri problem but a Kashmiri Sunni problem and solution to issue lies in neutralizing them.
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6865
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

I think I told you guys, but during a "South Asia", India TSP equal equal love fest at Columbia univ, NYC a few years ago, I was kicked out of the meeting when I confronted Salma Hiader for soft peddling TSP's role and sucking up to Mush.

On Suhasis Haider, I wonder if with her treasonous behavior, she is on talking terms with her dad Subranayam Swamy; he is on the extreme right, and at times makes an ass of himself as the equivalent of Indian Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Rielly etc.
Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1767
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sumeet »

An unprecedented dialogue on Kashmir
In an unprecedented turn of events, it was for Nitin Gadkari to make a move and have us invite the youth of Kashmir and have them engaged in an dialogue, which was described by the vice-chancellor of Islamic University, Prof Siddiq Wahid, as unprecedented and the most useful interaction ever held. Nitin Gadkari said: "Why don't they speak what they want to speak in a free and frank atmosphere, and we will say what we think and believe to be the best solution for Kashmir." It set the tone of the dialogue and the students — all brilliant, power-packed with views, pursuing their master's and PhDs in various subjects including journalism, engineering, MBA and science — gathered in Delhi on August 17 in what can be termed as a historic ice-breaking moment.

They spoke as much as they wanted to, met Nitin Gadkari in a two-hour thrilling Q&A, chatted across the board with the president of Delhi University Students' Union, Manoj Chaudhry, and a group of senior students from JNU, had discussions with Balbir Punj, MP, questioned P Chidambaram, the ubiquitous home minister, and capped the day with a visit to Akshardham temple, enjoying the boat ride exhibition depicting the great achievements of India and had "prasadam", and ended the day's "roza" there. Earlier they were taken to Hazrat Nizamuddin Chishti dargah to offer namaz and obeisance.

The programme began with floral tributes to Bharat Mata and Dr Syama Prasad Mookerjee. A minute's silence was observed in memory of all the innocent people, including the security personnel, killed in Kashmir, and then a free flow of view began. If Kashmiri Muslim students spoke about what they termed political repression of Delhi, atrocities of the forces, the Kashmiri Hindu students — Radhika Kaul, Aditya and Suneida Kachroo — challenged the other side's view, stone pelting, pain and anguish of the Hindus exiled, violence and Pakistan's sponsorship of the separatist agitations. Gadkari displayed amazing patience and resilience to listen. Prof Wahid had said earlier that "all that we want is to be heard. We are often given sermons and everybody wants us to listen, but we too want to have a say."

The professor and his students were not disappointed. Everybody was in a mood to listen. And then, before leaving, Gadkari said: "We want you to make progress as proud Indian citizens. All the problems and grievances can be understood and addressed within an Indian constitutional framework. There is a plethora of complaints from Indians residing in various states. No one can ever be satisfied in a democracy. So is true of Jammu & Kashmir. The integration of Kashmir with India is final and non-negotiable, from this point of a devotional faith to our nation, all other issues can be discussed. Education, economic development, better governance and a happier social milieu are what we wish for Kashmir and all our states."

So was the view of P Chidambaram, who spoke to students like a wisdom tree. He listened to the students patiently, in spite of his urgent engagements in Parliament and said: "Be part of the Indian story. The rest will follow naturally. Shun violence and aspire for development. I will immediately withdraw the security forces and send them back to barracks."

He said: "Can you expect a soldier, crowded by a dozen stone pelters and feeling helpless, just about to be lynched, not to open fire to save his life? You pelt stones, make security personnel targets, burn government property and expect us to remain silent and do nothing?"

Everyone lamented the killing of innocent people in the valley, and felt that violence must come to an end. Manoj Chaudhry was at his best to put the scenario in perspective. He said: "You think such incidents happens only in the valley? What about the killings of Gujjars in Rajasthan and the brutalities of Naxals in Chattisgarh and Bengal?"

Tejinder Singh, a student leader, said: "Four thousand Sikhs were massacred in Delhi and elsewhere in 1984. Should that mean they demand separation from India? Why do Sikhs remain loyal to India and democracy, but Kashmiri Muslims demand azadi?"

Prof Jahangir Tantri of Kashmir University spoke about the pains of Kashmiri Hindus and said Muslims wanted them back. "They were the happiness and raunaq of Kashmir. We feel deeply anguished not to see them in Rainawari and other places of the valley."

Rakhshanda, Lubna, Afsana, Nazeer, and their "just returned from a 20-year stint in the US" professor, Fouzia, were at their strongest putting across a different view, a view which Delhi won't agree to. The spoke for azadi and an end to "repression of Delhi". "All governments are puppets controlled by Delhi," they said.

What about the Mufti government, which was an outcome of a universally hailed free and objective election? I asked. Balbir Punj said: "You hate a government that you elect. Always, the valley leaders have ruled J&K, which includes Jammu and Ladakh, but you never care or agitate for their woes and pains and complain against Delhi and not against your own valley leaders?"

Yatindra Jit Singh, who belongs to Kashmir, said: "Burning of the tricolour is as unacceptable and provoking to me as burning of the Quran is to any Muslim. You burn our national flag, stone-pelt soldiers, demand a quivered azadi, and still want to enjoy the fruits of Indian democracy and the freedom the Constitution provides. Why don’t you protest against the separatists who are spoiling the future of a common Kashmiri and sending their children to abroad for better careers?"

Shehla Masood, president of Muslim Women’s Progressive Society, challenged the separatist viewpoint and asked: "Where are the issues of women's empowerment and unshackling them from the clutches of the Taliban and mullas? Why are the separatists silent on the educational and economic development of the society? Their agenda seems to be guided by factors other than the real welfare of Muslims."

The beauty is that the dialogue continues. Sharing and engaging in decent, logical exchange of views is certainly an Indian trait, a universally acceptable way to find solutions. (To be continued.)
Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1767
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sumeet »

Kashmir's 'Azadi' with the tricolour
Sushma Swaraj stunned the students from the valley on August 18 with the question "tell me what idea of the so-called 'azadi' you have and I shall speak after that". The students decided to have one among them to define what they thought about the concept of freedom they were seeking for Kashmir. Sarmad said: "We want to include Gilgit, Baltistan, Jammu and Ladakh in 'Azad Kashmir' and will have friendly relations with Pakistan and India." Some others tried to interject with more ideas. There was no clear voice that could describe what they mean by "azadi" when they chant it.

Now the leader of the opposition explained in a motherly way that they were all like her children. She said: "So, son, first decide what you want. Some want to remain independent, some want Gilgit and Baltistan, some want to go with Pakistan. No one is clear. You already have Jammu and Ladakh; enjoy an autonomy which is not available to any other Indian state. Gilgit and Baltistan you can't have without getting into a scuffle and that may lead to a war. The best 'azadi' that all of you enjoy is with the tricolour. The Indian Constitution provides everything that a citizen can aspire for. It has space for all the shades and opinions within its framework. Look at the educational and technological advances other Indian states are making and see the number of Kashmiri youths coming out of the valley to take advantage of it — in Bangalore, Chennai, Mumbai and Delhi. That's the freedom of development and reaching the sky for lifetime achivements." She brillinatly punctured the 'azadi' fumblings and made Manjoor Yusuf, a braveheart student from Srinagar, to come to the dais and declare: "It's wrong to say that all Kashmiri Muslims want 'azadi'. We want our future with India. It's a great country and in the last election 61% of the citizens of Kashmir cast their votes. India, not Pakistan, is our destiny." The atmosphere changed in a second. A small section of "azadi" seekers couldn't say anything except jeering at the Indian voice from Kashmir. He later complained that some of the students threatened him, "but I am not scared, sir". He was firm.

Smriti Irani, actor (Tulsi) and national president of the BJP's women's wing, charmingly disarmed the separatism advocates. "Azadi — What for and how? By making innocent kids and young people leave their homes and pelt stones on soldiers who are guarding the nation under their constitutional duty? Why should you not be concentrating on making the education system better and responsive? All the separatist leaders including Gilani and Andrabi send their children to various Indian cities and abroad to get the best education and settle down as progressive persons, but make the valley youth cannon fodder for their nefarious games, played and funded by Pakistan. Why don't you see the game?"


The Kashmiri Hindu students, like Radhika Kaul (just about to leave for Yale University) asked why none from Jammu or Ladakh supported what they said and wanted to be distanced from all their claims. "Why none of you ever, even in passing, refer to the pains and aspirations of these two areas which you think form an essential part of your so called 'Azad Kashmir'?"

"Your 'Azad Kashmir' remains a small, marginalized cry of a section of stone pelters in the valley alone," said Aditya Kaul. Utpal Kaul — born, brought up and educated in Srinagar — reminisced about his student days, about his Muslim teachers and the tradition of "Dal Cross" and "Wooler Cross" by girl students too who had pretty good hockey and tennis teams. "Where has all that vanished? Why do you want to be just confined to a small area of the valley? Give leadership to the Indian Muslims. Where is the space of Indian Muslims on your radar?" Prof Fouzia too became emotional and said: "We always had the tradition of mosques and temples existing side by side." To this, Aditya wanted to know, where have all the temples gone now? Thousands of them have been demolished and graffiti in foul language written against Hindus on their half-burnt walls. Why none of them ever protested against such happenings?

Editors' interaction with the students hinged on how political aspirations are taking a turn in the valley. Chandan Mitra of the Pioneer, Rajesh Kalra of the Times Group and Shoma Chaudhry from Tehelka tried to understand and put forth their viewpoints about Kashmir's problems and their solutions. Shoma spoke about the new wave of political demands in the valley and termed stone pelting too as an expression of anger. Chandan predictably took the nationalist line and tried to explain how the Indian democracy is the best framework. "Be part of a larger Indian milieu and everything can be sorted out," he emphasized. Large sections of Muslim students, apart from those who came from Islamic University nodded in affirmation. Rajesh Kalra asked students about their academic pursuits and their dreams. He said that unless they joined the mainstream of a struggle within the Indian framework how could they think they could excel in their lives.

The thrilling part was the arrival of the seven young turk membes of Parliament belonging to various political parties.

Harsimrat Kaur Badal was at her eloquent best. She narrated emotionally the trauma Punjab had gone through during the Khalistan movement. How every Sikh was a suspect, how young Sikhs were killed as suspects by the security forces and the massacre of 1984. "But gradually we all felt separatism was not an answer, it gave nothing but blankness, a black hole. Today Punjab youths are in the grip of drugs and all sorts of negative traits, a direct fallout of the insurgency. Punjab lost its vibrant, dynamic youth in a movement that was self-defeating." "And listen," she turned a tigress, "I am not from the Congress or the BJP, but I am an Indian and as an Indian I must clearly tell you that till the last Indian is alive, no one will ever allow Kashmir to secede from us. It's an integral part of us, of India." The conference room rose to hail her with roaring claps. The voices of "azadi'' had no answer. Neeraj Shekhar asked: "How many of you have voted in the last elections?" Islamic University students said in unison: "No one." "Why?" asked Neeraj. They said: "Because the elections are always rigged, so we have no faith in them." This was contested again by Manzoor Yusuf, who said 61% of Kashmiris voted in the elections. "That means you do not represent the majority." Aditya pointed out: "A known separatist leader, Bilal Lone, contested the election and lost his deposit. It means the majority of Kashmiris do not like separatists."

Priya Dutt said in her inimitable style: "Why on earth you declare first that you are not an Indian and then ask for more? How can one come on a dialogue table with a baggage of preconceived notions and then begin with riders? We are with you, we understand your pains and sorrows, we share your grief and demands for justice, but that can be met only under an Indian constitutional framework. And no one, no party or ideology or shade of belief, can ever give you 'azadi'. Take it today as firmly as possible."

Anurag Thakur, the young turk from Himachal who is also the president of Himachal Cricket Association and national president of the BJP's youth wing, spoke from the heart: "We are with you on every issue that creates pain or anguish, but as Indians. Nothing can ever be discussed beyond the parameters of our Indianness. We are talking to you not because you are different but because you have always been a part of us, an inalienable story of a larger Indian epic." Madhu Yashki narrated his own story from Andhra Pradesh, where he too was witness to the demand of a Telangana state. "It never pays to be an extremist, trust me. Our destinies and dreams are best protected under the umbrella of our Indianness."

Jayant Chaudhary was candid. "You want peace, right?" And everyone nodded. So friends, peace as I read somewhere, is like lovemaking. You have to keep your eyes shut and let the process take its course. Coming on a dialogue table with preconditions spoils the game. Then he said: "Tell me why some of you want ‘azadi’." The students, voicing separatist threads, fumbled, "Pandit Nehru had promised a plebiscite." "But that was to be held without any demographic changes. The valley has gone tremendous change in its population contours, with Hindus ousted and people from across the border rehabilitated post-1947," retorted Radhika Kaul.

None could explain why they want "azadi"; none could reply why Ladakh and Jammu remained absent from their worldview. Students who wanted "separation" were not keen to listen to the voices of Indianness from their own Muslim brothers and sisters from Srinagar. They said that even the 2002 and 2008 elections — universally hailed as free and fair, including by UN observers — were rigged.

"We have a lost generation in the valley, fed from their early childhood that they are different, hence they have, a separate flag, a separate constitutional provision and they do not belong to India as Bihar and Assam do. Some of the students claimed Kashmiris were a different race and a different "kaum" unlike Indians. I said: "Read at least Sheikh Abdullah’s biography, 'Atishe Chinar', in which he traces his roots, two generations back, to Kaul Hindus. There are Rainas, Kauls and Bhatts this side, exiled from their homes, and Rainas, Kauls and Bhatts on the other side. Why the divide just because one has a different way of worship?"

Ram Madhav, national executive member of the RSS, shared his views and took difficult questions with aplomb, asserting the age-old unity of Jammu & Kashmir with India. "We can never think to have Kashmir separated from India at any cost," he asserted. "We would like every person in J&K to prosper and have a government of his choice within the framework of the Indian Constitution."

This dialogue could happen because Prof Siddiq Wahid and Prof Fouzia Kazi were among the believers in resolving issues through talks. I wish I were a student of Dr Fouzia, who was so articulate and spoke with great maturity and élan. The same goes for Prof Wahid. The students were brilliant, and put forth their views assertively and decently. The dialogue has convinced us that there are people in the valley who believe in sharing the views rather than stone pelting and killing. No bullet can ever find a solution to a complex problem and building bridges in spite of all hurdles and challenges remains the course of a civil society. That has to be supported from both sides, though. The vice chancellor, Prof Wahid, invited us to continue the dialogue in Srinagar, in his Islamic University of Science and Technology. We have accepted the invitation. Friends are made. Sinead Kachroo of Aman Satya Kachroo Trust shared the feelings of Kashmiri students by offering to wear a black band to mourn the deaths of innocent people in the valley; it deeply touched the hearts of everybody.

Dr Syama Prasad Mookerjee gave his life in Srinagar for the complete integration of Kashmir with the rest of India. That a thinktank named after him would carry forward the dialogue in Srinagar and in Delhi with those who have a different opinion is a landmark event. That was what Bal Apte, the President of the organization, said, asserting the ancient threads of unity that bind Jammu & Kashmir inseparably with Bharat Vasrha. "We never imagined an India without Kashmir and will never do so." Kashmir se Kanya Kumari tak Bharat ek hai.

Reaching out and continuing talks can only be a better way out.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25370
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Anindya wrote:Suhasini's blog url is below - feel free to leave comments. Dont know what the moderation policies are, though.
http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/author/218/ ... aidar.html
She hasn't published my comments yet.
Anindya
BRFite
Posts: 1539
Joined: 02 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Anindya »

SS - having seen what Malini P, Suhasini here and Badri Raina have written - it is perhaps important to report on "how not to report on Kashmir"
Raghavendra
BRFite
Posts: 1252
Joined: 11 Mar 2008 19:07
Location: Fishing in Sadhanakere

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Raghavendra »

Most Kashmiris, including in PoK, want to be with India:Farooq http://in.news.yahoo.com/20/20100826/14 ... -want.html
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25370
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Farooq Abdullah, like his father, plays different tunes at different times.

From the debate in the Parliament,
There was a sense of alienation among the people of Kashmir who had “genuine grievances” which needed to be addressed through immediate “proactive” measures, he {CPI leader Gurudas Dasgupta} said.
One has been repeatedly hearing of this phrase, 'genuine grievances'. What is this laundry list of 'genuine grievances' ? Nobody has spelled it out so far openly. Suhasini Haider's article above also spoke of the same. When I asked her what were these grievances, she doesn't reply. This has become cliched.

More gems from the same communist leader, Gurudas Dasgupta
Gurudas Dasgupta said the “state was insensitive towards Kashmir.''

Mr. Dasgupta said “the people of Kashmir must get their due. {What due that has been given to the rest of India that has been denied to the people of Kashmir ? Forget about the rest of India. What extra due has been given to the people of Jammu & Ladakh that has been denied to those of the Kashmir Valley ?} They must be able to feel a part of the country.”

He said the “tension was so high'' in Kashmir that it could not be “artificially'' created. The possibility that the “strings” of stone-pelters may be pulled from across the border was there but it could not happen if there were “no genuine grievances'' among the people. {That is exactly the Pakistani line too.}I am not ready to accept that every act of protest is an act of hooliganism,{I hope he says the same when Mamatha and her ilk do the same in West Bengal} '' Mr. Dasgupta said.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10205
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/7119198.html
India's opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) Thursday said that the people of India- controlled Kashmir are demanding secession from India and not jobs or economic development.

The BJP slammed the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance ( UPA) government for its "failure to handle the unrest in the Kashmir Valley" that has seen 64 people killed since June 11.

Senior BJP leader Murli Manohar Joshi asked Home Minister P. Chidambaram Thursday in the Lower House of the Parliament -- Lok Sabha -- to tell Kashmiris unambiguously that their demand of " freedom or autonomy is not viable".

"Kashmir is an integral part of India and no force in the world will take it away from India," Joshi said.

"You say there are genuine grievances. I ask what they are. Is India sending forces there, are we occupying Kashmir? What are the grievances? I don't see any grievances other than the demand of azadi (freedom). If that is what you call genuine grievance, then please tell them clearly that azadi or autonomy is not possible, is not viable," he said.

This led to an uproar in Lok Sabha with Members of Parliament ( MPs) of the National Conference party Sharifuddin Shariq and Mehboob Beg objecting to Joshi's remarks.

Joshi asked the government not to pump money into India- controlled Kashmir and referred to hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani's statement mocking Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's all-party meeting.
Even the opposition asked the same question yesterday ( about what this "grievance" is) and the reply was usual shouting and slanging..Also, good point raised about 1 % of population cornering 9% of the allocation and still talking about "economic difficulties"
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1pMbvpPWD0

Check the contradiction here

Violence has flared again after months of calm in Indian Kashmir. In the past four weeks, security forces fought with demonstrators demanding independence from India. What can India do to end tensions in the Himalayan region? Is South Asia in danger of being plunged into another prolonged periosd of instability?
anupamd
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 15
Joined: 29 Dec 2008 22:36

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by anupamd »

Indians as a junta collectively need to promote this idea on every opportunity in public or private, domestically and internationally – “Kashmiris are already azad within India.”

They enjoy all the fruits of democracy and freedom as the rest of India and even more, so why would they feel oppressed. If we challenge them on every forum on this ground and compel them to cough up the reasons for their stance, the hollowness of their claim/ brainwash shall become apparent. After all the oppression they believe in is really no different than daily survival struggles of an aam admi everywhere in India or a law & order issue elsewhere.
Anindya
BRFite
Posts: 1539
Joined: 02 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Anindya »

Here's a clip that may help...

http://www.livemint.com/2010/08/0621025 ... nni-i.html
What do Kashmiris want freedom from? India’s Constitution.

What is offensive about India’s Constitution? It is not Islamic. This is the issue, let us be clear.

The violence in Srinagar isn’t for democratic self-rule because Kashmiris have that. The discomfort Kashmiris feel is about which laws self-rule must be under, and Hurriyat rejects a secular constitution.

Hurriyat deceives the world by using a universal word, azadi, to push a narrow, religious demand. Kashmiris have no confusion about what azadi means: It means Shariah. Friday holidays, amputating thieves’ hands, abolishing interest, prohibiting alcohol (and kite-flying), stoning adulterers, lynching apostates and all the rest of it that comprises the ideal Sunni state.
krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5881
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

Civilian Protests in J&K: A Part of Protests in Rest of India?
The civilian protests in the Kashmir region of the state of Jammu and Kashmir have been accompanied by a proliferation of literature on the intra-national dimension of the dispute, especially the issue of Human Rights. If you happen to read the columns by likes of Pankaj Mishra or Basharat Peer it is likely that your sympathies will lie with the people of Kashmir.
These 2 oiseaules do not represent mainstream Indians.
Despite the geo-strategic and politically sensitive nature of Kashmiri protests we need to be aware that the grievances against corrupt administration, poor governance and arrogance of state authorities are shared many Indians in varying degrees across the length and breath of the country.
Lack of faith in the national government is not something exclusive for the region of Kashmir.
Read the rest also. nicely put.
governance is an all India problem not just J&K problem.
Protests against dilution of Article 370 or AFSPA by the people of Kashmir are completely justified
Problems are created because of special privileges. remove article 370 , allow normal state-centre relations as with other parts of India. Later remove AFSPA if conditions improve.
Simply saying that the government does not respond to their 'legitimate' demands cannot be valid basis for demanding 'azaadi'. Inability of the state to govern properly gives the citizens the right to protest but this inability should not always be interpreted as a pre-conceived conspiracy against the aspirations of the Kashmiri people.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25370
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Kashmir, Kashmiris and all that
A very sensible article unlike those of Suhasini Haider.
In 1971, my brother married a Kashmiri Hindu. So after nearly 40 years of discussion and observation, I can claim to have a somewhat better insight into the so-called Kashmir problem than most other commentators. They don't have the home advantage, so to speak.

Undefinable thing

Net-net, without making the story too long and loaded with the Rajatarangini, Sufism and so on, all Kashmiris believe in something called Kashmiriyat. But no matter how hard they try, they can't define it.

But this undefinable thing, many of them believe (some strongly and some weakly) makes them sufficiently different to claim that they are not Indians. When you go to Kashmir, some even ask you if you have come from India.

Although I have stopped baiting them now, I often used to ask — both Hindus and Muslims — if Hindu Kashmiriyat and Muslim Kashmiriyat were the same. Asked singly, they said no; asked jointly they said yes.

Also, many Kashmiri Hindus from the Valley used to look down on the rest of us. There is absolutely no historical reason for this but they just felt superior. Maybe they still do. Jawaharlal Nehru's Kashmiri provenance and Indira Gandhi's preference for Kashmiri Pandit political advisors strengthened this sense of superiority.

Types of separatists


Until the early 1990s not many Muslims were separatists. That element gained strength only because Pakistan got active in the Valley after it had failed in Punjab in the 1980s. The ISI always needs something to do against India.

There are, I think, two types of separatists — weak and strong. The weak separatist wants more ‘autonomy' and the strong one wants ‘azaadi'.

The latter are in a minority but make up for it by making a lot of noise, aided by Pakistan. The former are confused because, as we shall see, they can't define autonomy.

There is also a strong sociological factor: The typical Kashmiri Muslim from the Valley takes a dim view of the non-Valley Muslim. It is a deep-rooted prejudice, not unlike the sectarian prejudices elsewhere in the world. That is why the soft border thing has so few takers in Kashmir. They prefer to keep the Mirpuris and such like out.

As to ‘autonomy', those who want more of it are basically political windbags who want the best of all worlds. I discovered this just before the 1996 election in J&K.

About autonomy

I had gone along with two of my colleagues (one of whom was a Kashmiri Muslim with a Ph D from an institute in Kerala!) to interview a former chief minister of Kashmir who was trying to become CM again. He grandly said he wanted autonomy.

We asked him to define it for our readers by spelling out what more J&K could have than it already did under Article 370 and the overall provisions for state autonomy under the Constitution, not to mention the things listed in the States and Concurrent Lists. He kept dodging and we kept insisting.

He then lost his temper. He said the chief minister of Kashmir should be called vazir-e-azam (prime minister) and have his own flag and that Kashmir should have its own currency.

India could look after everything else like defence, external affairs, communications etc and, naturally, backstop the currency.

In a sense he was asking for all costs to be borne by India, all benefits to accrue to J&K politicians. I asked if this was practical. He said nothing.


Jobs for the boys

Now, 14 years and three elections later, no one is seriously talking about this sort of frippery. The main issue has changed and become the same as elsewhere in the country: Jobs for the boys.

This is a fair demand but there is a problem: Very few Muslim Kashmiri boys are willing to come out of Kashmir in search of jobs. They come to trade, though only in winter. But they simply do not believe in migration like the rest of us Indians do. So let me reformulate the domestic component of the Kashmir ‘problem': It is to get the Kashmiri kids to come out and work here because the Valley, all of 320 or so square miles, can't provide full-time jobs to all of them, certainly not in the state government, even though that is a highly preferred option for the usual reasons.

So here is a practical suggestion: Let the UPA promise a quota to Muslim boys from the Valley in all public sector and Central Government jobs, say, 2 per cent. Let us see how many takers there are, both amongst the Kashmiri Muslim boys. I don't think there will be many.

Climate change?

Recently, when talk came around to it, I asked a middle-aged, highly educated Kashmiri Muslim if he really thought whether, given its limited natural endowments — it is 80 miles long and 40 miles wide — the Valley could find jobs for all of them. He said no, which is why independence is not a viable option. So why don't the lads come out of the state, I asked. Because, he said, they think it is too hot even in Jammu. It's possible he was joking. But if not, perhaps the solution to the Kashmir ‘problem' is climate change. :rotfl:
Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7812
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Prasad »

Those who want, find a way

In Kashmir, education is the casualty
Almost, 1000 students have moved from Srinagar to Jammu to study in the past two months. For coaching institutes in Jammu it's a bonanza. They are competing on discount prices to attract more and more students.
Locked