Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 05 Aug 2015 21:14

^^ Or the helina seeker modified for aerial target.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Aug 2015 07:00

helina seeker will not suffice....the a2a seekers operate in x-band i think and are capable of engaging fast movers.

looks like agat had done the work of scaling their seeker sizes http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... siles-task

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 06 Aug 2015 16:01

My guess is that Akash Mark-2 with active seeker will have a range of 100km+. Please read the history of Sea Dart missile to check out an equivalent.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Aug 2015 17:35

Gyan wrote:My guess is that Akash Mark-2 with active seeker will have a range of 100km+. Please read the history of Sea Dart missile to check out an equivalent.

Doubt it. Barak-8 is the MRSAM with 70+km range. Although back when Akash was developed, MR was considered in the 25km range but nowadays that is SRSAM territory. Akash Mk.2 will have additional 10-15km range. This was stated by DRDO back in 2010. That kind of modest additional range is possible through better propellant mixture, use of lightweight materials, booster improvements, longer Ramjet burn time, and flight profile software enhancements. Anything beyond that requires a major redesign, which is unlikely given that only 3-years have been estimated for target completion.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 06 Aug 2015 17:53

Increase in 10-15km range was envisaged with present configuration only. Akash flight profile is constrained by radar limitations. With active seeker, Akash will go 100+km but Israeli lobby will try to kill it. As it killed Trishul while we continue to import outdated and costly Barak-1.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Aug 2015 20:15

imo the agility of akash could also be improved with some tvc type thing or more control surfaces . this will help in the overlap area with SRSAM or often when there is no SRSAM as with the IA on the march.

srin · Post by **srin** » 06 Aug 2015 23:28

Singha wrote:imo the agility of akash could also be improved with some tvc type thing or more control surfaces . this will help in the overlap area with SRSAM or often when there is no SRSAM as with the IA on the march.

The Akash being a ramjet would be limited in its maneuverings in order to not flame out the engine. So it probably won't be able to do the 40G turns claimed by other SAMs.

But I don't think it would be required too. Someone had posted on these forums the relation between velocity and the turn rate. I forget the math but the essence was that because Akash is lower average velocity (Mach 2.5 ?) and it has sustained burn (unlike most other missiles), it wouldn't need to make those high G maneuvers to engage target.

To increase the range, seeker would definitely help because command guidance would definitely have lag over long distances and high closing speeds. Another factor would be improved navigation and ranging - due to evolved algorithms and also due to more powerful onboard computers.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Aug 2015 23:41

Srin, you are right. The Akash basically chases down the target with its long burn time. The other missiles have short burn rocket motors so have to "catch" the target within a specified time, since they run out of steam thereafter.

Gyan wrote:Increase in 10-15km range was envisaged with present configuration only. Akash flight profile is constrained by radar limitations. With active seeker, Akash will go 100+km but Israeli lobby will try to kill it. As it killed Trishul while we continue to import outdated and costly Barak-1.

With a 80km+ radar, how is the Akash flight profile constrained by the radar limitation/s? It has more to do with the design as it was envisaged for the Akash itself with a 25km envelope.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 06 Aug 2015 23:55

^^^^
Is it 80km fire control range ???

John · Post by **John** » 07 Aug 2015 02:28

Karan M wrote:Srin, you are right. The Akash basically chases down the target with its long burn time

Source? Akash range is 20 to 30 km it cannot turn into 100 km or even 50 km ranged missile without switching engines. The solid fueled ramjet used by akash is quite dated couple generation behind brahmos and has burn time of around 20 seconds (brahmos in other hand is far higher and can be throttled).

Compare that with solid fueled buk missile which has burn time of 10 secs but far greater impulse hence the superior range. Higher impulse makes up for its shorter burn time hence Buk had superior range and speed made compared to SA 6. We might have increased its speed and burn time a bit compared to sa6 but there is only so much you can do to an outdated engine.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Aug 2015 02:34

We've been over this a dozen times - the data was posted already and should be on the forum.

Nobody is saying that the Akash will become a 100 km missile. 50 km or not is conjecture since there are more advanced fuels now available.

"Compare that with solid fueled buk missile which has burn time of 10 secs but far greater impulse hence the superior range."

Which just shows you didn't get the point at all. Its not about raw range but how that range is achieved and at what speed with what tradeoffs as a result in terms of maneuverability and structural stresses that need to be taken into account.

Shaun wrote:^^^^
Is it 80km fire control range ???

Detection with high grade tracking at 60+ km.

John · Post by **John** » 07 Aug 2015 02:39

Yes but its all speculative. Lets leave range 30 km and move on, even if you think otherwise and have evidence that shouldnt be discussed openly.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Aug 2015 02:56

John wrote:Yes but its all speculative. Lets leave range 30 km and move on, even if you think otherwise and have evidence that shouldnt be discussed openly.

There is evidence, one can;t help it if you don't look for it and repeat the same stuff over and over again, without even trying to look for it. Repeating the same incorrect claims again and again and again even when people go to the extent of correcting your claims.

The solid fueled ramjet used by akash is quite dated couple generation behind brahmos and has burn time of around 20 seconds (brahmos in other hand is far higher and can be throttled).

Given you have never designed any of these rocket motors, your claims of what is dated and what is not dated can be dismissed as subjective opinion without considering the intricacies of the design details. That apart, even the burn time data is off by a factor of 100%.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1772433

Speed -> 25km in 35 seconds. [Booster -> 4.6s; Sustainer -> 35.5s] That's roughly 700m/s.
Warhead lethality -> 50 meters

In short, clearly, you can't reliably state what is and what is not possible with the current Akash. Trying to shut down the discussion by claiming that it shouldn't be discussed is even more pointless, when you clearly dont know much about the system itself and there are several reports of range extension in progress of which a key element is the seeker.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Aug 2015 03:04

srai wrote:
Gyan wrote:My guess is that Akash Mark-2 with active seeker will have a range of 100km+. Please read the history of Sea Dart missile to check out an equivalent.
Doubt it. Barak-8 is the MRSAM with 70+km range. Although back when Akash was developed, MR was considered in the 25km range but nowadays that is SRSAM territory. Akash Mk.2 will have additional 10-15km range. This was stated by DRDO back in 2010. That kind of modest additional range is possible through better propellant mixture, use of lightweight materials, booster improvements, longer Ramjet burn time, and flight profile software enhancements. Anything beyond that requires a major redesign, which is unlikely given that only 3-years have been estimated for target completion.

A very reasonable estimate! Only one caveat, the timeframe between project sanction and initial proposal could have been used to undertake some more significant improvements. The original proposal IIRC did not have a seeker mentioned, it was the modest improvement being spoken of with 10-15km more range. The seeker and significant redesign came later. Also, I wonder whether DRDO is truly happy with the LRSAM program, from several indications the IAF variant was sort of foisted on them. A more local MRSAM class SAM may be a better option, with the Astra based QRSAM also in the works.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Aug 2015 03:41

^^^

Agree. I'm sure DRDO guys haven't been sitting around twiddling thumbs for the last 5 years

The original estimate for DRDO-led initiative (and self-funded) back in 2010 was 2 years if I remember correctly. They have probably already achieved those, and now they need to work on seeker integration and other requirements that have come about after the IAF/IA got on board on the whole Mk.2 variant concept.

Note: For the longest time I remember, DRDO was supposedly working on a 60km enhancement. Maybe it can reach that much with all the new enhancements.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 07 Aug 2015 09:49

Karan saab , it seems our rajendra radar have uncanny similarities with Flap-Lid B engagement radar.

some of the salient features of Flap lid

1. shoot and scoot capability in 5 mins ( although it also depends more on the vehicle its mounted upon )
2. capability to concurrently engage six targets, and guide two missiles against each target ( Rajendra 4 targets )
3. operating in I/J bands operating at 20-80 GHz ( Similar with Rajendra )
4. coverage of a 90 degree sector ( Rajendra , similar coverage if the radar array is static )
5. With electronic beam steering, very low sidelobes and a narrow pencil beam mainlobe, the 30N6 phased array is more difficult to detect and track by an aircraft's warning receiver when not directly painted by the radar, and vastly more difficult to jam. While it may have detectable backlobes, these are likely to be hard to detect from the forward sector of the radar. As most anti-radiation missiles rely on sidelobes to home in, the choice of engagement geometry is critical in attempting to kill a Flap Lid. ( Rajendra radar have the same advantage )
6. minimum engagement altitude at 25 m
7. Basic command guide 47 km and semi active radar and TVM guide 75 km.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 07 Aug 2015 15:57

Akash vs Barak-8 issue is way more complicated then it seems.

Akash Mark-2 will not have effective range of 100km but neither will Barak-8 will have effective range of 70km.

Akash Mark-1 is limited in range because not only it has to depend on ground radar guidance but the ground radar/equipment has to track both radar and missile and twain has to meet. As the distance increases the track widens and probability of intercept point becomes bigger ie to say that there is an issue is of “resolution” of radar and not only of its raw detection and tracking range. So the effective range is limited by ground radar and tracking equipment “resolution”

Now for active seeker missiles Brochures only mention about aerodynamic range (augmented by lofted profile) as they are not limited by ground radar. I see no reason why pure aerodynamic range of Akash-2 Missile firing its motors for ~35-45 seconds + lofted profile will be less than 100km. Try to mentally Estimate range for an Akash missile at the height of 18-24 km travelling at around 700-800m/s and going further in lofted profile, with glide down capability. (Think a howitzer in Siachin, it will help).

I also presented empirical data from Sea Dart missile but there were no takers.

In 1967 war, SA-6 was noted for travelling upto 60km in some instances.

Also as well known Ramjet are able to better retain engagement capability after maneuvering and also due to higher average speed the target has more difficulty in getting away. Additionally at low altitudes the Ramjets perform better than Conventional missiles.

Therefore for Meteor its no escape envelope is estimated to be 2-4 times conventional missiles. Meteor is more advanced but Akash has a pretty bulky motor even if its 1970-80s tech. As a thumb rule it was estimated in 1970s that for that era a Ramjet missile is equivalent to 3 times in weight to conventional missile.

Hence Akash -2 Missile will have a no escape envelope equivalent to or (my estimate) way bigger than Barak-8. DRDO is understating it to keep out of firing range of import pimps.

That’s why Israelis are hell bent on killing it.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 07 Aug 2015 16:26

If the ruskis with their 80s tech can direct a beam riding missile to 47km, the present engagement range of Akash may be understated. The army and airforce always wanted 50km system

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 07 Aug 2015 17:06

Gyan Ji, I believe the Barak-8 should already have an effective range of 100 km+, I really doubt the 70km range they keep mentioning. Barak-8 ER will have range of 120km but it will really be more like 160 km or so.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Aug 2015 17:37

Gyan,

When talking about range figures for SAM and AAM, it is always effective range and not how far it will fly. The missiles will continue to fly beyond its effective range.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 07 Aug 2015 18:27

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Aug 2015 18:57

^^^

Side-by-side external comparison: SA-6 and Akash

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 07 Aug 2015 19:15

^^^^
The difference is in Radar system . The pic i have posted above suggests , an active or semi active seeker can be achieved with Akash missile with minimum modification.
My take is , the whole Akash system is hybrid of SA-6 and early S-300 system .

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 07 Aug 2015 19:19

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 8h8 hours ago New Delhi, Delhi
The seeker on the Akash-2 will extend its range over by 10 km. But the Akash-2 features aerodynamic and propulsive improvements too.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 07 Aug 2015 19:46

Active seeker or semi active seeker with command guidance ??? I see the later more appropriate .

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 08 Aug 2015 05:11

Regarding this discussion, the range specifications of the SA-11 are helpful.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-11.htm

The SNOW DRIFT warning and acquisition radar provides target height, bearing and range data. The SNOW DRIFT has a detection range of 85 km against high-flying targets, 35 km against targets at an altitude of 100 meters, and 23 km against targets flying nap-of-the-earth (NOE). The radar's tracking range extending from 70 km for high-flying targets to 20 km for NOE targets.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 08 Aug 2015 07:02

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... s?from=mdr

Defence ministry to clear Rs 5,000-crore procurement contract for 'Made in India' Akash missile systems

NEW DELHI: The defence ministry is set to clear a Rs 5,000 crore procurement of 'Made in India' Akash missile systems for the air force in a contract that will involve significant private sector participation, with companies like Tata Power SED and Larsen & Toubro likely to get major work portions.

An air force plan to induct seven squadrons of the Akash anti-air missile systems has been cleared at several levels and is likely to get a final approval from the high-powered defence acquisition committee shortly, sources told ET. Fourteen firing units of the missile will be bought for the seven squadrons.

While state-run Bharat Electronics Ltd will be given the main contract under a 'repeat order' - the air force has already contracted for eight squadrons of the missile systems out of which two have been inducted - the major system providers include Electronics Corporation of India, Hindustan Aeronautics, Tata Power SED and L&T, defence ministry officials told ET.

Induction of the system, which has an indigenous content of 96% will also benefit a number of small and medium scale industries that have been participating in the programme. The Akash programme, which was approved for procurement first in 2010, is a major Make in India initiative with the air force cleared to progressively induct 45 firing units over the next few years.

The army has inducted its first Akash Weapon System which was ceremonially handed over to it by BEL in May. The indigenously developed supersonic short range surface-to-air missile system is designed to counter a variety of aerial threats including fast moving aircraft, helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles up to a range of 25 km and an altitude of 20 km. The mobile area defence system can engage multiple targets simultaneously and is configured to adapt to future requirements as well.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Aug 2015 07:07

Why exactly is the Akash being compared to the SA-6 in a series of dramatic picture comparisons that would look good on PakDef. I have not managed to understand the purpose of such a comparison.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 08 Aug 2015 07:50

Aksah is replacing SA-6, so its SA-6++, like LCA was Mig21++

Even if India makes a diff space plane, it would be compared to Space shuttle, although purpose of each of them is entirely different

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Aug 2015 10:02

You guys take it too far

Those pictures were out of curiosity and reply to an internal arrangement comparison. We should do the same when Mk.2 comes out to see how the design has been altered and discuss implications of those changes.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Aug 2015 10:11

The only thing common with SA-6 for Akash is the command guidance principle but thats not unigue and Barak-1 , Trishul etc uses the same CG principle. Beyond that Akash SAM is atleast 2 Gen ahead of SA-6 in terms of every thing and any resemblance is just superficial.

srin · Post by **srin** » 08 Aug 2015 10:43

A standout common design feature is solid-fuel ramjet.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 08 Aug 2015 10:44

with due respect sir(s), the purpose of the discussion is not to compare Akash with SA-6 . We don't know exactly whether Akash missile will have active or semi active seeker . We even don't know that the changes will be in only missile or in the whole system .

Influenced or not , Akash missile resembles SA-6 with later having Semi active seeker . Now that Akash Mk2 too will be having seeker with improved propulsion management and aerodynamics , it will have better performance than a legacy system like SA-6 . Now if Flip Lid B radar ( our Rajendra radar "seems" to be similar in performance ) can guide a CW semi active missile to 75 km , what limits our Akash to only 35 km ???

srin · Post by **srin** » 08 Aug 2015 11:04

Shaun wrote:with due respect sir(s), the purpose of the discussion is not to compare Akash with SA-6 . We don't know exactly whether Akash missile will have active or semi active seeker . We even don't know that the changes will be in only missile or in the whole system .

Influenced or not , Akash missile resembles SA-6 with later having Semi active seeker . Now that Akash Mk2 too will be having seeker with improved propulsion management and aerodynamics , it will have better performance than a legacy system like SA-6 . Now if Flip Lid B radar ( our Rajendra radar "seems" to be similar in performance ) can guide a CW semi active missile to 75 km , what limits our Akash to only 35 km ???

Are you saying that the SA-6 range is 75 km ?

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 08 Aug 2015 11:18

India’s tribute to Missile Man: New BrahMos gets Kalam name

India will pay its Missile Man the ultimate tribute — naming its first hypersonic missile, which will travel at a speed of 8,575 kmph, after the late president APJ Abdul Kalam.

A cruise missile capable of taking out hardened targets such as underground bunkers and weapon storage facilities at seven times the speed of sound (Mach 7), BrahMos-II (K) is being developed by the Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace. The K in it is for Kalam, the man who fired India’s missile and nuclear programme.

“Kalam is the reason we are standing on the threshold of a new era of hypersonic weapons. That’s why BrahMos-II is being named after him,” BrahMos Aerospace CEO Sudhir Mishra told HT.

Their sheer speed makes hypersonic weapons, designed to fly at least Mach 5 (6,125 kmph), difficult to intercept and packs them with destructive power. The US, Russia and China are the only other countries working on these weapon systems.

Six weeks before Kalam died on July 27, he asked BrahMos Aerospace to press the accelerator on hypersonic weapons technology and help India field an operational missile in three to five years.

“We have a two-pronged approach to exploit the hypersonic realm – upgrading the existing BrahMos engine to achieve Mach 5+ speed in three to five years and simultaneously working on a pure hypersonic engine to breach Mach 7 in five-seven years,” Mishra said.

The existing BrahMos missile provides India the capability to hit targets 290km away at nearly three times the speed of sound. It’s the world’s fastest supersonic cruise missile.

The 1998 inter-governmental agreement with Russia to build these missiles bears Kalam’s signature, who was then heading the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

Kalam visited the BrahMos Delhi headquarters on June 13 to mark the missile’s first test flight in 2001 and spoke at length about hypersonic capabilities.

The headquarters’ Mission of Life museum, dedicated to arguably the country’s most loved president, mirrors his extraordinary relationship with BrahMos.

It captures his journey from a boy in a remote Tamil Nadu village to People’s President told through memorabilia donated by Kalam.

On display is the Bharat Ratna he was presented in 1997 for his contribution to the scientific research and modernisation of defence technology in India.

Two Padmas share the space with the flight suit that Kalam wore during his now famous Sukhoi-30 sortie. An entire wall of sketches and caricatures presented to him by school children perhaps captures the rocket-scientist president’s life the best – that of People’s President and ardent nationalist.

Source : Hindustan Times

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 Aug 2015 11:37

I thought the K-series of SLBMs was named so to honour Kalam?

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 08 Aug 2015 11:38

srin wrote:
Shaun wrote:with due respect sir(s), the purpose of the discussion is not to compare Akash with SA-6 . We don't know exactly whether Akash missile will have active or semi active seeker . We even don't know that the changes will be in only missile or in the whole system .

Influenced or not , Akash missile resembles SA-6 with later having Semi active seeker . Now that Akash Mk2 too will be having seeker with improved propulsion management and aerodynamics , it will have better performance than a legacy system like SA-6 . Now if Flip Lid B radar ( our Rajendra radar "seems" to be similar in performance ) can guide a CW semi active missile to 75 km , what limits our Akash to only 35 km ???
Are you saying that the SA-6 range is 75 km ?

Nope , Akash 2 will come up with improved propulsion and aerodynamics , so why mk2 will have only 35 km ?? limitation with missile design or under statement from DRDO ??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Aug 2015 14:12

Shaun wrote:with due respect sir(s), the purpose of the discussion is not to compare Akash with SA-6 . We don't know exactly whether Akash missile will have active or semi active seeker . We even don't know that the changes will be in only missile or in the whole system .

I have seen no discussion so far. I have only seen side by side photographs and cutaway drawings of the SA-6 and Akash. I have not been able to figure out why.

Are you trying to say that the relationship between SA-6 and Akash is similar to the relationship that we are likely to see between Mk II of something and something else that you have not mentioned when you recommend that a future comparison be made.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 08 Aug 2015 15:33

There is mismatch in the capability of the missile and the radar guiding it. Okay have to wait for Mk2 .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Aug 2015 21:02

tushar_m wrote:India’s tribute to Missile Man: New BrahMos gets Kalam name

Six weeks before Kalam died on July 27, he asked BrahMos Aerospace to press the accelerator on hypersonic weapons technology and help India field an operational missile in three to five years.

“We have a two-pronged approach to exploit the hypersonic realm – upgrading the existing BrahMos engine to achieve Mach 5+ speed in three to five years and simultaneously working on a pure hypersonic engine to breach Mach 7 in five-seven years,” Mishra said.

Can they upgrade the Ramjet Engine to reach mach 5 ? That would be very very interesting