Artillery Discussion Thread

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pankajs
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pankajs »

cross-post

Preparing for a two-front war - Ajai Shukla
Besides equipping tens of thousands of soldiers, the major new acquisitions that could arise include 400-450 ultra light howitzers (ULH) for seven new artillery brigades - one each for the four new mountain divisions, and three directly under the strike corps. Negotiations are already under way for 145 pieces of BAE Systems' M-777 155-millimetre, 39-calibre howitzers for up to $885 million. If the army is satisfied with this weapon, it could purchase as many as 900-950 more for the artillery regiments of 15 more mountain divisions. In that case, the MoD would press BAE Systems hard to shift production of the M-777 to India.

There is also a growing requirement for helicopters to airlift troops on "vertical envelopment" missions to capture heights in the enemy's rear and flanks. India is negotiating to buy 15 CH-47 Chinook heavy lift helicopters, an order that could well be expanded. The tried and tested Russian Mi-17 V5 helicopter that the IAF has already ordered in large numbers could potentially see additional demand.
pushkar.bhat
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pushkar.bhat »

SBajwa wrote:And what are we going to do with all those guns? Have 250 gun salute after Chai-Biscoot sessions?
Good Idea Sirji..
abhik
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

pankajs wrote:cross-post

Preparing for a two-front war - Ajai Shukla
Besides equipping tens of thousands of soldiers, the major new acquisitions that could arise include 400-450 ultra light howitzers (ULH) for seven new artillery brigades - one each for the four new mountain divisions, and three directly under the strike corps. Negotiations are already under way for 145 pieces of BAE Systems' M-777 155-millimetre, 39-calibre howitzers for up to $885 million. If the army is satisfied with this weapon, it could purchase as many as 900-950 more for the artillery regiments of 15 more mountain divisions. In that case, the MoD would press BAE Systems hard to shift production of the M-777 to India.
Another T-90 maneuver? 145 becomes 450 becomes 950. :evil:
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

abhik wrote:Another T-90 maneuver? 145 becomes 450 becomes 950. :evil:
What is the maneuver part here? Which domestic product is being sidelined by induction of M-777?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

after they are done buying 950 and its associated chinooks and mercedes, there will be no money to buy any other domestic product for the plains divs.

money allocation never seems to be a issue for foreign products. but put any domestic product on table and it will be 10 orders and a request for 10000 improvements before the next order.
member_20317
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_20317 »

rohitvats ji,

a niche idea like M777 makes sense only if introduced in niche roles. I am afraid I also fear a budgetary constraint by a 39 cal item on other bigger things. Though I admit 145 too seems on smell test basis as a very small number. But 950 again in primary smell test seems too big a number even if this is the total purchase spread out over a number of years with the 'peak deployed numbers at any one time' being ultimately lower.

Request you to provide some link or resources or best still a write up on how the idea of this big a number for this kind of weapon got evolved overtime.

Though I admit Ajai Shooklaw can be a difficult person to deal. His track record on promoting American products has at times been unbelievably shrill. And this 950 number could be another of his assignments.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

He like a lot of indian service guys is frustrated by Russian gear and their issues, and hasnt experienced Amriki gear challenges...so everything new with available spares, jazzy tech, seems awesome.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

What about the cost of annual end user gear audits, that is mandatory when buying from Khan. The only way the M 777 becomes immune from this, would be for the gun to bee made in India under License. That essentially makes it a single vendor situation. Unless the subsequent acquisition is taken ,as a follow up to the original.

Any way, in the interest of commonality, and simplified logistics. All other domestic 155 MM towed projects ought to be shelved.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Austin »

BTW does US allows Lic Manu/TOT for their equipment , if so it wont be bad idea to lic build M777 in India.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

ravi_g wrote:rohitvats ji,

a niche idea like M777 makes sense only if introduced in niche roles. I am afraid I also fear a budgetary constraint by a 39 cal item on other bigger things. Though I admit 145 too seems on smell test basis as a very small number. But 950 again in primary smell test seems too big a number even if this is the total purchase spread out over a number of years with the 'peak deployed numbers at any one time' being ultimately lower.

Request you to provide some link or resources or best still a write up on how the idea of this big a number for this kind of weapon got evolved overtime.

Though I admit Ajai Shooklaw can be a difficult person to deal. His track record on promoting American products has at times been unbelievably shrill. And this 950 number could be another of his assignments.
Before we go any further, let us understand one thing - M-777 was made light not keeping in mind mountainous applications but expeditionary nature of wars fought by the US Armed Forces. As is the case with many items in service with India, a product developed for X use has been found suitable, or modified, for Y role.

Now, coming to the question - What is a niche role? And how niche is niche? If I'm not wrong, we're considering the light weight and helicopter portability of M-777 as niche.

Having said that, Mountain Warfare may be a niche role for some countries - for us, half the army is geared to fight in mountainous terrain of varying degree. The likely requirement for large number of M-777 may well stem from this simple fact.

AS article says that IA may go for equipping 15 Divisions (apart from initial start of 7 divisions) with M-777; that is more divisions than what more than half Europe can put together. This is where the large number is coming from. On the face of it, it is pretty simple calculation:

- Each division has an artillery bde with 5 x regiments.
- Each regiment has 18 guns.

That makes it a total requirement for (15+7)*5*18 = 1,980 guns. Now, use your wisdom to decide how many of these you'd like to be from M-777 stable.

While deciding on the allotment, what one needs to factor in is the usability of the USP of M-777 - the light weight, dimensions and air-lift by Mi-17V5 or Chinook - with respect to each formation which is a candidate for such guns.

For example, take 3 Infantry Division. In spite of it being situated in Ladakh, it is an infantry and not a mountain division. That is because but for the height of ground ASL, it is a relatively flat area. So, if you ask me, 155/52 Cal should be the main candidate for artillery bde of this division. May be, 1 x regiment may be equipped with M-777 to allow for limited air-lift but more 'normal' gun may well suffice. Similarly, formations under 15 Corps and 16 Corps facing PA across LOC. Would they require M-777 or 45/52 Cal weapon be all right?

The thing is - factors like road infrastructure, lay of the land, gradient and operational requirement vary across sectors. So, it is dangerous to use the straight-forward calculation I presented earlier and which Shukla seems to have used.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_23455 »

Austin wrote:BTW does US allows Lic Manu/TOT for their equipment , if so it wont be bad idea to lic build M777 in India.
Of course it does...F-16s in Turkey, M-1A1s assembled by Egypt...just off the top of my head.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_20317 »

Rohitvats ji,

Thanks for the demand side calculations.

And yes I was treating M-777 as niche because of reasons like helo-portability (primary reason), cost, lower cal. My reasoning used to run like – If we have ‘x’ number of Chinooks that can justify ‘y’ number of M-777 deployed in ‘z’ hours presuming no ord incompatibility issues etc. Then throw in a ‘n’ number in towed versions without helo-portability and you get your ‘N’ number of M-777 to be ordered.

Now if this 950 is really the vision then it ends up opening, at least one of the following two new lines of thought:

1) How to arm the Arty considering the terrain is not going to be any more helpful for a 3.5 ton gun than it already is for a 11.5 ton gun. This part is probably what concerns you the most. Here I would like to point out that 3.5 tons does not mean Light. It only means lighter compared to the heavier stuff. It is still heavy enough to warrant heavier trucks to lug it around. And the ammo is still pretty much the same weight.

2) For me more importantly it is the, cost/missed opportunities angle. We already do Grade-5 high strength Titanium alloys albeit with low volumes and slightly different end user specs requiring probably a different sub-grade. It is a pity that we do not do any better when in fact this grade is claimed to be the highest in use grade. This alloy is useful for aerospace and marine engineering applications, a large number (& value) of which come right up the street, the BRF Bum-Patakha guys, live at. The understanding of investment casting and sintering that is required has already been used on larger scales in India. If we further develop and invest we could benefit in a different manner by way of spin offs. Like say for example we had the problem with the Pinaka warhead which employed small tungsten balls perhaps imported from France, this too requires sintering. The weight issues in a large number of our end products across the board, could be resolved with concomitant reduction in political risk to our MIC capabilities. Metal working offers some of the same types of spin offs as were offered by the composites, with which we have tasted success. Hell we can end up with a mixed howitzer that is not as expensive as M-777 even if only a little heavier for say usage in the plains, if the BRF guys want it.


To me it looks like the make or buy should be explored before a decision for 950 guns is taken. Especially considering the following two inputs:

1) This number of 950 may be more than what is deployed by the only expeditionary force in the world already fighting big time in high altitudes with far higher number of Chinooks than what we are ever going to buy. Compare that to our situation where we may have to avoid fighting for piss-political reasons like the recent drama by our mandarins in Ladakh.

2) We Indians can work up a storm if this thing can be thought out and worked upon right. As they say crisis bring opportunities. Let’s just hope NaMo type of guy comes along in 2014 before this proposal gets finalized by Raksha Mantralaya. Let the armed forces import whatever they want let us just do this one thing inhouse even if only for replacements.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

@ravi_g:

I agree with your thought process.

However, what you are referring to comes at the fag-end of a development cycle which will require mastering of lot of other aspects.

For example, we know M-777 uses titanium to reduce weight - but before we reach a stage where we start replacing parts with titanium components, we first need to be able to master the process of manufacture those parts first. Here is an example of what Americans did with M-777 and you'll see that not only did they use Titanium, they also developed processes especially for the purpose:

http://www.asminternational.org/emails/ ... 607p45.pdf
The U.S. Defense Department has placed a $176 million order with BAE Systems to produce 87 additional M777A2 155 mm towed howitzers, a weapon system that was made more affordable as a result of novel manufacturing approaches that were applied through
a Navy ManTech-sponsored project. The M777 howitzer is manufactured from titanium alloys rather than steel, which
reduces the weight of each gun from 16,000 to 9,000 pounds. The weapon’s lighter weight results in substantial improvements in transportation logistics and setup time.

Although titanium improved the M777’s functionality, titanium product forms are several times more expensive than steel, and the titanium manufacturing processes are more complex than those for steel. To improve the lightweight howitzer’s affordability, the Navy Metalworking Center (NMC) implemented new manufacturing approaches and technologies that reduced the part count, manufacturing costs, and material waste.

The project’s primary objective was to replace fabricated, multi-part components with single-piece titanium investment castings. The spade shown here, which stabilizes the weapon during firing, was converted from a 60-part component to a single near-net-shape casting, and was implemented into full-rate production in 2005. The project also demonstrated a 110-to-one reduction in part count of the saddle.

To address another objective, the project’s integrated project team developed alternative sources of raw materials and innovative production paths to eliminate machining-intensive processes. Specifically, the NMC project qualified several alternative manufacturing methods, including flow-forming, and expanded the vendor network for the cradle tube, which provides structural support to the cannon assembly and recoil systems. Initial cost savings and avoidance from this NMC project totaled $40 million before this order for more M777s.
Here is another very good article on the development process of M-777 - also do look at the important physical parameters and design requirements of the gun - this should explain the deploy-ability of the gun in the mountainous terrain.

http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2522
Background

Through the unprecedented media coverage of the war in Iraq we are all aware of the cost to military and civilian lives if firepower is not in the right position at the critical time. Accurate and mobile ground artillery plays an important role in modern, fast paced warfare, and a new ultra-lightweight field howitzer developed by BAE Systems RO Defence will be a huge asset to military forces when it is deployed in about a year’s time.

The Howitzer M777 Cannon

Howitzers are self-propelled or towable cannon artillery that can fire at both high and low angle trajectories. The new M777 155mm lightweight Howitzer will deliver a host of significant improvements compared to its predecessor the M198, which is being phased out of service.

Improvements in The M777 Howitzer over the M198

Improvements achieved in the M777 include a 42% reduction in basic system weight, a 25% reduction in size and retention of the 30km firing range using NATO-standard ammunition.

Use of Titanium Enables the M777’s Weight to be Kept to A Minimum

The M777s new capabilities and performance standards have been set by a revolutionary new design that enlists a material form unprecedented in land-based artillery - titanium Ti6Al4V alloy investment castings. The use of this material has enabled BAE Systems to attain the system weight goal established by the US Department of Defence (DOD), which was seeking a new design that would contribute to its military transformation effort.

Design Criteria for the Howitzer M777

Among the many systems under evaluation, the DOD wanted a new artillery piece that could be rapidly deployed in response to threats around the globe. With a production weight of 3.7kg, the M777 fits the bill and can be transported by helicopter, transporter aircraft or ship, and towed by a 4x4 vehicle weighing 2.5 tonnes or more.

Ti6Al4V, The Material of Choice

Bearing in mind the system requirements, candidate materials for the howitzer's major structural components were limited. So with many objectives linked to the transportability of the new howitzer, particularly by aircraft, it is no surprise that the designers turned to Ti6Al4V alloy, a long-standing choice among military aircraft designers for its unbeatable combination of light weight and high strength.

Ti6Al4V Justifies Its Choice

The idea of using this alloy for a howitzer’s structural components was met with scepticism by some. But titanium investment castings demonstrated their ability to meet tough criteria for weight reduction and overall ruggedness during numerous tests in the developmental phase, as well as in subsequent operational assessments. In addition, the material met the durability objectives set by the joint US Army and US Marine Corps. For example, the M777 achieved considerably more than a 900 ‘Mean rounds between system abort’ level of performance, exceeding the objective by a reassuring margin during tests. Moreover, it successfully completed a 20 year corrosion test, which called for the test gun to fire dozens of rounds after the corrosion testing had been completed.

Design Challenges for the M777 Howitzer

The M777 howitzer’s designers faced a number of challenges in meeting the tough weight, transportability and on-ground mobility objectives set for the new system. The M198, itself only a few decades old, represented a major improvement over its predecessor. Making another round of order-of-magnitude improvements taxed the limits of known production technologies for land-based weapons systems.

Smaller System Footprint

When exploring their options for the new artillery, designers envisioned a significantly smaller system footprint, and analysis showed that the desired levels of lightness and compactness could only be achieved by design changes that incorporated new and innovative dual function structures and pressure vessels.

Centre of Gravity

The design of the new system resulted in a non-traditional artillery configuration, which placed the centre of gravity (CG) in a ‘static-out-of-balance’ configuration. The CG of the recoiling mass is located in front of the howitzer's trunnions when the gun is not firing, an approach that allowed engineers to design the trunnions much closer to the ground than was possible with previous generations of weapons.

This design strategy served to position the weapon's overall CG as low as possible. Coupled with a low trunnion position, this counteracts the right hand torque generated by the weapon on firing. The recoiling mass remains within the system structure keeping the system highly stable.

Manufacturing the M777 Howitzer

Converting fabrications to castings does more than help deliver superior performance in the field, it also gives BAE Systems superior performance in its production process. These benefits include simplifying, streamlining, standardising and containing the cost of the manufacturing process.

Streamlining the Production Process

One significant achievement is the consolidation of 973 detailed parts into 196 single-piece castings - an 80% improvement. A part-count reduction of this magnitude helps streamline the production process by reducing or eliminating a host of manufacturing and administrative burdens that inevitably accompany alternative processes. Administrative record-keeping tasks in purchasing, supplier management, accounts payable, shipping, receiving, material handling, inventory management, inspection and more were all significantly streamlined or, in some cases, permanently eliminated as a result of part reduction.

Reducing Labour Requirements

Labour requirements were also reduced, since fabricated structural assemblies for the M777 would have required 2,458 welds, whereas the cast components need only 483 welds another 80% improvement. Moreover, the length of the welds was cut by 77%.

Reduction in Raw Materials and Cycle Times

Further savings accompanying conversion to the casting process include reduced raw material input requirements and much shorter manufacturing cycle times - typically 25-50% less than the cycle time for the fabrication of respective assemblies. These added savings were made possible by the tighter control of process variables that now characterises the investment casting process. Today, the parts that emerge from the process are completely interchangeable. This is a knock on effect of continuous improvements in the precision, reliability and repeatability of the wax injection, shell-making, vacuum melting, casting and heat treating phases of the investment casting processes, which are all automated.

Reductions in cycle time are also achieved thanks to vertical integration within Howmet, and the expanding role the company is playing in managing finish-to-print tasks. By way of example, the majority of material and technical inputs into the casting production process were accomplished at the company's investment casting campus in Whitehall, Michigan. This single location is home to Howmet’s research centre, which used SLA pattern making in the engineering and manufacturing development stage of the project to make test articles and prototypes rapidly and relatively inexpensively.

Whitehall is also home to Howmet’s titanium alloy production and speciality material production facilities. The Specialty Materials operation produces the waxes used in the pattern making process, and is adjacent to the Ti-Alloy and Ti-Cast operations, which provide the raw material and foundry resources for the majority of the Howmet castings used in the M777 howitzer. The castings for the M777 are all hot isostatic pressed in Howmet’s facility, co-located with the Ti-Cast operation.

Howmet's Temperaft operation in Cleveland, Ohio, was called on to make the tooling for the howitzer’s castings. Tempcraft also designs, builds and supplies the microprocessor controlled wax injection equipment used to create the patterns required for the investment casting lost wax process.

Performance Improvements of The M777 Howitzer

Performance capabilities in a range of crucial combat support areas have also been greatly improved, such as a 25% increase in the ability to destroy enemy vehicles in close support combat, a 70% improvement in survivability, and a 500% increase in counter fire exchange ratios. The lightness and compactness of the new system makes it extremely nimble, and it can be set up in three minutes, move out in two minutes, and conduct firing missions from as many as four different locations within one hour.

Successful Firing Trials

Initial firing trials of the M777 met with success last summer and a US Army/US Marine Corp operational test and evaluation phase is scheduled for August 2004. The new lightweight howitzer looks set for its role as the US Army’s new generation of medium force weapon, with the British and Italian Armies expected to place orders soon.
My submission is this - have we reached a stage where we have mastered the process of developing an artillery gun and can go around substituting parts thereof with Titanium alloys?

Plus, we need to see M-777 class of weapon not only from the helicopter lift perspective but also from the dimension and weight perspective - presently, IA employs 105mm IFG for mountain formations; the M-46 used in plains is lacks the required elevation angle.

Three course of actions are possible here - (1) IFG has lesser range of 17 km and weight of the shell is an issue. So, do we go with improved IFG with better shell and more gizmos added to it? (2) IA is using IFG only because M-46 is not a good option and we have a limited supply of Bofors. Hence, tomorrow, when new 45/52 Cal gun becomes available, IA will replace IFG with 45/52 Cal weapon. (3) Look for an alternative in M-777 class for equipping these forces.

We really don't know about situation with respect for Point (1) and Point (2). These will determine the actual number of guns required for Point (3).
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vic »

I think that due to incompetence of DRDO, OFB, DPSU we should only import and import and while we are at it we should replace the Corrupt generals with US, Israeli, Chinese Generals or what have you.

Incidentally, as per new DPP, when did the Army ask for development of ULH by DRDO, what was the time alloted, did DRDO fail?

Has even the army asked for development of ULH even now?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pankajs »

rohitvats
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

vic wrote:I think that due to incompetence of DRDO, OFB, DPSU we should only import and import and while we are at it we should replace the Corrupt generals with US, Israeli, Chinese Generals or what have you.

Incidentally, as per new DPP, when did the Army ask for development of ULH by DRDO, what was the time alloted, did DRDO fail?

Has even the army asked for development of ULH even now?
Why don't you open a new thread all for yourself - where you can rant all you want? It will spare me at least your constant whines...
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Sagar G »

IIRC ARDE had said that they would look into the weight reduction of the indigenous artillery gun by using titanium. Investment casting is not a new process they have used it wisely to cut down the parts count and streamline the manufacturing process, in LCA which is a much more complex project we have used ingenious methods to reduce parts count and cut down on the assembly time so when and IF army comes out with a QR to manufacture such a gun indigenously I am sure we can do it but looking at the time army took to ask DRDO to make an indigenous artillery it's anybody's guess when a QR for an ULH will be issued to DRDO.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

The issue of QR brings about an interesting question. Has the IA, ever released the GSQR's for domestic 155 mm guns.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Misraji »

rohitvats wrote:Why don't you open a new thread all for yourself - where you can rant all you want? It will spare me at least your constant whines...
+1.

Folks here think we can throw money at a problem and the product will automagically appear.
Where are the engineers and scientists to achieve that? Not the engineers that work for a salary. The Engineers who live to build products.

--Ashish
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

Create a perception of an industry being a stable job opportunity and then see how many gravitate towards it. Money, like it or not, does play a huge role in development and is arguably the biggest incentive plus prerequisite to create a powerful MIC.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_20292 »

Karan M wrote:Create a perception of an industry being a stable job opportunity and then see how many gravitate towards it. Money, like it or not, does play a huge role in development and is arguably the biggest incentive plus prerequisite to create a powerful MIC.
Actually, I quite like the way the Americans have made money the underpinnings of a lot of their society, being both a cause and consequence of economic growth.

At least, if nothing else, people are able to blame "money" and "funding" in projects, and thus , literally able to ascribe accountability where hitherto there was none.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by NRao »

It is "risk" that is the foundational factor. Money is merely a front for it. What "American"s are really good at is taking on a lot of risk - not many societies (individuals or smaller groups d0) out there (today?) have an appetite for such high risks. Indians on the other hand fare very well in a "Kargil" like situation - no money, nothing, give me what you have and we will get the job done, do not worry. But, as a society India is not very good at absorbing risks.
Folks here think we can throw money at a problem and the product will automagically appear.
Actually if one were to throw money continuously it should produce results. "Continuous" could mean at more than one effort, each effort could be noncontinuous, but cumulatively it sould be continuous. Also, at the start there needs to be a huge infusion of funds (which is what India needs).
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

You can take more risk when the resources are more. This is a reflection of India itself. When opportunities are less, and the culture is built around save/dont rock the boat, all thanks to anemic economic development for most of its history. This thanks to the assigned founding father of the country practising nepotism by following the Peter principle - putting the wrong man up for PM, and then that gentleman continued much the same.

If we take a look at Indian programs, they are characterized by hugely ambitious goals, and crippled by under resourcing at critical points which mean more and more conservative development strategies, end result timelines missed and lots of bad press and a customer who keeps cribbing. The customer too is Indian and also suffers from the handicap of poor civilian military relationship, plus faces a challenging war scenario. He needs items double quick, because his rivals are often given goodies from abroad.

This mentality of under resourcing exists across the Indian spectrum, and is also why the outsourcing job shop mentality works so well in India, and work conditions can be abysmal.

This translates to a higher compensation, whereas the same IT 9-5'ers will refuse to work in a PSU or a lower paid position, where the work may actually be much more rewarding or impactful.

However, in the OFB environment, the lower pay thus translates into an inability to manage attrition, wherein the ones willing to put in more hours and work hard are often the ones to leave. In order to maintain whatever they can, the management slacks off on those who are left, as a result the OFBs get away with all sorts of bad productivity from the worker unions and the management can't and won't crack the whip. GOI wont crack down on the unions either.

Bottomline, if you do not invest in a sector and regard it as essential, as versus just giving it lip service and periodic and far too late cash injections which are a fraction of what is required, you will end up with a dysfunctional apparatus.
Add a MOD which just functions as an order and procure system, and not as a strategic house to develop and set a MIC in place, and things are where they are.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Victor »

Karan M wrote:Create a perception of an industry being a stable job opportunity and then see how many gravitate towards it. Money, like it or not, does play a huge role in development and is arguably the biggest incentive plus prerequisite to create a powerful MIC.
We don't need "stable" job opportunities but "real" job opportunities where people get rewarded according to their worth and can get fired for repeatedly failing in their tasks. We have all the right people in India but we need to be able to make it worth their while with a culture that they can thrive in. Waving a tiranga in their faces alone is not going to cut it in an India where any 3rd rate politician or babu is worth tens of crores easy with no visible source or questions asked.

The DPSUs offer the most "stable" jobs in India, limited only by the last rupee of the poor Indian taxpayer and have never been held accountable for performance, quality or productivity lapses in spite of having arguably the most embarrassing record of any MIC in the world. They have caused wide derision inside and outside the country and in some quarters, complete disbelief at India's almost total ineptness in developing and making weapons.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

You didn't get the point at all. A stable job opportunity does not mean a job in any one organization. It means general employability because the industry across the board is significant. For instance, to be a software engineer is/was considered to be a stable job opportunity.

This is what parents look at, when they groom their children to follow specific careers. Social perception also matters. Obviously, this means the industry has to be scaled up, from the current handful of state owned firms, and a few pvt players and then the SMEs.

Similarly, if to be an mechanical engineer in (say) aircraft development or being an aeronautical engineer, is widely recognized as a good pedigree, then it will automatically translate to many generations of aeronautical engineers graduating and causing a corresponding growth in the supply side as well. Not all will be the best quality, but the pipeline will increase to the point that many good engineers will be available and generally the talent pool for a wide variety of tasks of differing complexities will also be available.

In India, changes happen so rapidly, that blink and you miss them. In other words, accessing the talent pool for a MIC is not as hard as it may seem. Grooming them and developing them will require a significant scale up though in terms of industry structure and programs.

Next:
The DPSUs offer the most "stable" jobs in India, limited only by the last rupee of the poor Indian taxpayer and have never been held accountable for performance, quality or productivity lapses in spite of having arguably the most embarrassing record of any MIC in the world. They have caused wide derision inside and outside the country and in some quarters, complete disbelief at India's almost total ineptness in developing and making weapons.
First, lets focus on whats required.
This derision in whichever quarters it may be, is pointless. Many of those same quarters were tomtomming their own superiority and mocking the IAF for its attrition till Cope India came about and proved to be a wake up call. Similarly, mocking the IA over its J&K tactics was all well and good, till the battlegrounds of Afghanistan and Iraq showed these experts what COIN was about.

In other words, judging one's success or inability by what others say is not a good yardstick.

What matters to India is whether the DPSUs fulfill the mandate accorded to them, and do so efficiently. That is a metric to judge them by.

In this, the reality is that the DPSUs (OFB, BEL, HAL, BDL) are basically production shops run on TOT and with limited R&D (slowly changing over the past five odd years).

They are hobbled both by GOI enforced conditions - unionization and restrictive employment policies, limited payscales and also the environment in which they operate, which, to my mind, is deliberately engineered to ensure under-performance.

Keeping the services and the DPSUs at loggerheads also works to the advantage of folks who are wary of either side getting too powerful for their boots. The basic fact of the matter is that the strategic culture of "modern" Nehruvian India is confused, muddled and driven by ideological idiots who occupy positions of far reaching influence and hence undermine the efforts of the others who seek to put a consistent framework in place.

Fact of the matter is that if the DPSUs all started their own R&D programs en masse, and the GOI changed conditions both within the DPSU and outside, so that the services worked with them in an organized fashion, a long term import substitution plan was drawn up and so forth... the import gravy train would cease.

And that has ramifications for many groups who have grown used to eating off that money and using it to cement their supremacy. The DPSUs in that sense of the word are patsies and hence don't rock the boat beyond a point. The case of the ex? BEML Director and how he got to that post is a case in point.
The workforce is also heavily unionized and what happened in GRSE in the 90s is also a case in point.

Blaming the DPSUs for the poor Indian taxpayer is a bit of a joke, no offence intended, because the issue is far more serious, it is the poor Indian taxpayer who elects the kind of political animals that break/subvert every Indian institution to fulfill their agendas, whether it be using state owned assets for personal wealth or using national security as a channel for something else. One gets what one elects, and in this the culpability of the Indian citizen should not be excused.
Last edited by Karan M on 14 Sep 2013 02:36, edited 1 time in total.
koti
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by koti »

M-777 buy uncertain
Link to stratpost
Vipul
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vipul »

Quote from the above link.

Meanwhile the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which had been mandated by the defense ministry to devise prototypes of the old Bofors FH77 B02 howitzer on the basis of designs kept in cold storage after transfer for license production by the Swedish company as part of the order in the eighties, which was aborted because of the infamous corruption scandal, has seen discouraging results so far.

Shishir Arya of The Times of India reported earlier this month that the project has been set back by at least a year after the OFB prototype’s barrel apparently came off during trials in August.

BAE Systems, which took over the old Bofors company that sold the howitzers to India in the eighties, after a series of ownership changes, had offered assistance to OFB in putting together the howitzer last year.
Sagar G
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Sagar G »

The original report

Shell burst pegs back indigenization of Bofors guns by a year

Well to be on the safe side OFB must consult DRDO regarding whether there is any design flaw which needs to be looked into, it's better that any flaw whether in shell or in the design itself in found now and rectified instead of giving a half baked product which might cause mishaps later and hence give the import lobby a chance to push down there product.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

There is only one way to get DPSUs performing,sack those heading projects and the chief if results do not arrive on time,as is done in most countries,including the US and Russia.The OFB as it is is controversial for scams,and accountability must happen,otherwise what is the point in having a State Min. for Def. production? perhaps his designation should be renamed as Min. of State for Defence Non-Production!

PS:As was earlier delightfully said by a spokesman with words to the foll effect,"the firer will fear if the barrel is fired".Surely past time for someone to get "fired" what?!
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

rohitvats wrote: Before we go any further, let us understand one thing - M-777 was made light not keeping in mind mountainous applications but expeditionary nature of wars fought by the US Armed Forces. As is the case with many items in service with India, a product developed for X use has been found suitable, or modified, for Y role.

Now, coming to the question - What is a niche role? And how niche is niche? If I'm not wrong, we're considering the light weight and helicopter portability of M-777 as niche.

Having said that, Mountain Warfare may be a niche role for some countries - for us, half the army is geared to fight in mountainous terrain of varying degree. The likely requirement for large number of M-777 may well stem from this simple fact.
There seems to be an assumption that air deployment/supply as the primary means is somehow the most preferable for Mountain Warfare. Is this conventional wisdom? If this were to be true then what amount of airlift capability is required to make such a strategy actually work. With our meager resources is this viable even in a niche role let alone being the mainstream? This is the real question. And if this is not so then our troops are going to get shafted because they'll end up with fewer number of guns which are also less capable.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_23455 »

abhik wrote:There seems to be an assumption that air deployment/supply as the primary means is somehow the most preferable for Mountain Warfare.
By whom? By all means build roadheads right up to the battle area. In the time that it takes to get that up to scratch let's hope the other side doesn't do anything funny.

The Army has lugged Bofors upto the Nathu La area, but if given a choice they would like something lighter, especially if the strike corps job is to move into the enemy's territory, and arty assets have to be moved rapidly to support.

The meager resources boat has sailed, if you are committed to an offensive force posture with MSC etc., then being penny wise pound foolish on logistics is not the answer.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Victor »

RajitO wrote: The meager resources boat has sailed, if you are committed to an offensive force posture with MSC etc., then being penny wise pound foolish on logistics is not the answer.
A case can be made that an airmobile MSC actually saves money for us by reducing the need for corresponding fixed assets on the ground, not just heavy artillery but even roads, bridges and permanent army camps.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

RajitO wrote:
abhik wrote:There seems to be an assumption that air deployment/supply as the primary means is somehow the most preferable for Mountain Warfare.
By whom?
The people who are peddling the M777.
By all means build roadheads right up to the battle area. In the time that it takes to get that up to scratch let's hope the other side doesn't do anything funny.
THose M777s and helicopters aren't gonna come in a click of a finger either.
The Army has lugged Bofors upto the Nathu La area,
Again goes to prove why conventional guns will do the job perfectly fine.
Victor wrote:
RajitO wrote: The meager resources boat has sailed, if you are committed to an offensive force posture with MSC etc., then being penny wise pound foolish on logistics is not the answer.
A case can be made that an airmobile MSC actually saves money for us by reducing the need for corresponding fixed assets on the ground, not just heavy artillery but even roads, bridges and permanent army camps.
Can you calculate the actual air assets(number of helicopters etc.) required to make the full MSC air mobile? The American 101st airborne, 1st Cav air assault etc can be used for reference.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vic »

rohitvats wrote:
vic wrote:I think that due to incompetence of DRDO, OFB, DPSU we should only import and import and while we are at it we should replace the Corrupt generals with US, Israeli, Chinese Generals or what have you.

Incidentally, as per new DPP, when did the Army ask for development of ULH by DRDO, what was the time alloted, did DRDO fail?

Has even the army asked for development of ULH even now?
Why don't you open a new thread all for yourself - where you can rant all you want? It will spare me at least your constant whines...
If we can survive your love for imports and abuse of everything Indian then you can also learn to ignore my posts.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Victor »

When OFB makes guns that don't shoot the barrel at the enemy instead of the shell, we'll all be in a position to love Indian guns. Until then we have to buy phoren.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pankajs »

Let me start with the most basic question; where are the Indian guns?

DRDO head in an interview has stated that the *prototype* will be ready in 3 years. The question is will that date be met? How much more time will be required to convert the prototype to finished product? How much further to mass production?

So what is the timeline we are looking at for the Indigenous Gun's induction?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

Philip wrote:There is only one way to get DPSUs performing,sack those heading projects and the chief if results do not arrive on time,as is done in most countries,including the US and Russia.The OFB as it is is controversial for scams,and accountability must happen,otherwise what is the point in having a State Min. for Def. production? perhaps his designation should be renamed as Min. of State for Defence Non-Production!

PS:As was earlier delightfully said by a spokesman with words to the foll effect,"the firer will fear if the barrel is fired".Surely past time for someone to get "fired" what?!
This is the sort of stuff that reminds one of the Red Queen in Alice . Sacking only project heads or chiefs for the malaise that affects the setup, is beyond pyrrhic, you'll end up losing whatever talent that is there. A majority of the issues that exist are because of the unionized nature of the PSU workforce and the complete inability of the management to deal with them. Plus the restrictive policies on hiring, letting people go, the lack of investment in their growth and training and so forth. If the system has to change, it has to be changed effectively not with such token measures symbolic of communist regimes in tinpot nations.
member_23455
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_23455 »

abhik wrote: The people who are peddling the M777.
Fantastic, so you could probably provide a link to the relevant brochure, presentation, or other link where the peddlers talk about air being the "primary" means of movement.
abhik wrote:THose M777s and helicopters aren't gonna come in a click of a finger either.
Strawman #1. The point raised was which will come earlier, the roads or the M777+Chinooks?
abhik wrote:Again goes to prove why conventional guns will do the job perfectly fine.
Please feel free to split a post for ease for discussion, but do not cherry pick a part of the sentence to suit a convenient inference. Here is the original again and since nuance seems to be a lost cause on BR I am making bold the part that signifies why it is not fine to carry more weight than you need to.
The Army has lugged Bofors upto the Nathu La area, but if given a choice they would like something lighter, especially if the strike corps job is to move
abhik wrote:Can you calculate the actual air assets(number of helicopters etc.) required to make the full MSC air mobile? The American 101st airborne, 1st Cav air assault etc can be used for reference.
Strawman #2. Which poster has talked about making a full MSC air mobile? Or were you referring to the peddlers?

Let me guess...if someone posts tomorrow saying we should increase our defence budget to meet the threat from China, does it automatically mean take it to a $100 billion dollars plus?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Sagar G »

pankajs wrote:Let me start with the most basic question; where are the Indian guns?
Pardon my ignorance but where are the phorren TFTA guns as well ???
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pankajs »

Phorren TFTA gun, M777 in this case, have been in production for the last 7 years where as the DRDO gun is still in the labs per DRDO.
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