All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
rajanb wrote:
Do the Indian Armed Forces have good strategists? For e.g in the 60s Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh was reputed to be the best tank battle strategist after WWII.
Based on what????
Its not like we had huge tank battles won everything in sight
Biggest fiercest tank battle after WWII was fought in '65
If the twin setbacks of Assul Uttar and the ambush were inusfficient, on the same day Pakistan GHQ ordered the division's third brigade to the Sialkot sector, where the fiercest tank battles since World War II were underway. The next day 1st Armored Division was reorganized. Its 4th and 5th Brigades were given one tank regiment and one armored infantry battalion each, and the division HQ plus 4th Armored Brigade was sent north against the possibility of an Indian breakthrough at Sialkot.
The tank battles of 1965 took their place in annals of military history as the most intense ones ever, since World War II. Close to a thousand tanks, on both sides, took part in the pitch battles and offensives.
Humungous, in my opinion.
Last edited by rajanb on 08 Jul 2011 08:13, edited 1 time in total.
The meeting was summoned after credible intelligence reports two months ago that the ISI was interested in penetrating the core Naxal movement in order to draw the Indian Army into the internal security quagmire.
If the twin setbacks of Assul Uttar and the ambush were inusfficient, on the same day Pakistan GHQ ordered the division's third brigade to the Sialkot sector, where the fiercest tank battles since World War II were underway. The next day 1st Armored Division was reorganized. Its 4th and 5th Brigades were given one tank regiment and one armored infantry battalion each, and the division HQ plus 4th Armored Brigade was sent north against the possibility of an Indian breakthrough at Sialkot.
The tank battles of 1965 took their place in annals of military history as the most intense ones ever, since World War II. Close to a thousand tanks, on both sides, took part in the pitch battles and offensives.
There was another smaller battle? Where the Indian tanks turned around. And Pakistan, true to its belief that 1 Paki = 10 Indians chased furiously, only to enter a semi circular trap of well hidden Indian tanks waiting for them?
I think the PA armour div advancing into a soft muddy area overgrown with elephant grass and into a india arty/horse-shoe trap was assal uttar (khem karan village area) itself.
this was where the centurions of 1st armour div made their mark.
Singha wrote:I think the PA armour div advancing into a soft muddy area overgrown with elephant grass and into a india arty/horse-shoe trap was assal uttar (khem karan village area) itself.
this was where the centurions of 1st armour div made their mark.
The dhoti shivering Indians had flooded the paddy fields
Here is a diorama I had made representing a scene from that battle:
One of things that is never mentioned is the role of artillery. My fathers regiment, 91 Mountain won battle honours for Asal Uttar. The rajputs, took off the wheels & shields of the 75/24 guns, and in the fields, the Pakistanis almost could not see them.
^^^Actually, there is some confusion with respect to that title.
The famed 17th Horse, better known as Poona Horse, uses this title which was confered to them post the 1965 in Sialkot Sector. While some PA writers/historians say that this title was used to refer to 1st Armored Division.
That aside, the formation which took part in Asal Uttar was the 2(I) Armored Brigade..another hallowed formation of armored corps. 1st Armored Divsion was in Sialkot sector.
Hanut Singh,who retired as a lieutenant general from the Indian Army, has had an illustrious and distinguished career. He commanded the Poona Horse during the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War at the Shakargarh Bulge and was awarded the Maha Veer Chakra, the second-highest gallantry award in India. Second Lieutenant Arun Khetrapal, a subaltern in his regiment, won the highest gallantry award in India, the Param Veera Chakra. Such was the distinction achieved by the Poona Horse regiment that the Pakistan Army called it "Fakre Hind"-"the Pride of India".
Indian army won battle's no doubt but dont you think that the corruption now has spread its roots into the army or other defense services ...
"Twenty-seven Indian Army officers are in the dock with disciplinary proceedings ordered against them after a probe indicted them for illegally selling non-service weapons.The disciplinary action against them could mean they may soon face a court martial"
Read more :- http://haryana.punjabkesari.in/haryana/ ... 74_127254-
Uff... what does this news report have to do with battles? Its largely nonsense anyway. If an officer purchases a weapon of non restricted bore with his or her own funds, and then later decides that he or she would like to sell it, for whatever reason, to a person with a valid license, why is it a matter of concern?
From what I know, the 1st Armoured (Black Elephant) has always been known as the Fakr-i-Hind or Pride of India. The Poona Horse is sometimes referred as the Hand of Allah, because of its role in the Battle of Kooshab (Anglo-Persian Wars), where it launched a desperate attack against superior Persian forces, somehow managed to wrest their battle-standards (which feature the "Hand of Allah"), and routed the opposition.
schowdhuri wrote:One of things that is never mentioned is the role of artillery. My fathers regiment, 91 Mountain won battle honours for Asal Uttar. The rajputs, took off the wheels & shields of the 75/24 guns, and in the fields, the Pakistanis almost could not see them.
Could you ask your father and pen down some memories? It is important.
Sorry for the OT,
Is there any good article on this battle?? The page in wikipedia has nothing in it.
Would love to read more about the battle and the whole war of '65.
Thanks.
/OT
Asal Uttar:
The section on caveat has some interesting observations (I don't if they are valid) on official records and how orders are transmitted in the Indian and TSP armies.
jagbani wrote:Indian army won battle's no doubt but dont you think that the corruption now has spread its roots into the army or other defense services ...
"Twenty-seven Indian Army officers are in the dock with disciplinary proceedings ordered against them after a probe indicted them for illegally selling non-service weapons.The disciplinary action against them could mean they may soon face a court martial"
Read more :- http://haryana.punjabkesari.in/haryana/ ... 74_127254-
This news is irrelevant to the topic under discussion. If disciplinary proceedings were ordered on them, so be it, this does not mean "the corruption now has spread its roots into the army or other defense services", you are making this sweeping comment tarnishing 2 million men with the same brush. They sold a gun to a person with a license. Try prosecuting them in a civil court. they will be acquitted. These guys are not Sanjay Dutt, sheltering guns for terrorists!!! Army expects a higher set of values from its men and women and hence are disciplining them.
jagbani wrote:Indian army won battle's no doubt but dont you think that the corruption now has spread its roots into the army or other defense services ...
"Twenty-seven Indian Army officers are in the dock with disciplinary proceedings ordered against them after a probe indicted them for illegally selling non-service weapons.The disciplinary action against them could mean they may soon face a court martial"
Read more :- http://haryana.punjabkesari.in/haryana/ ... 74_127254-
This news is irrelevant to the topic under discussion. If disciplinary proceedings were ordered on them, so be it, this does not mean "the corruption now has spread its roots into the army or other defense services", you are making this sweeping comment tarnishing 2 million men with the same brush. They sold a gun to a person with a license. Try prosecuting them in a civil court. they will be acquitted. These guys are not Sanjay Dutt, sheltering guns for terrorists!!! Army expects a higher set of values from its men and women and hence are disciplining them.
This is not true. As per Army rules, any non service pattern weapon issued/sold to a retiring officer can not be sold in the market and even needs to be returned to an ordinance deport after the death of the officer. This is another matter that most of these weapons - unless you are a general, are old antics of restricted bores - mostly captured from terrorists or enemies or made by OFB decades back. Many officers sell them as they are quite useless- you can not even get the ammunition for it in the market - but it remains illegal - even in civil courts who will not overturn Army rules as they are the laws applicable to defense forces.
That makes no sense. If I, as a civilian, sold an army officer a non service pattern weapon, why would he or she need to return the item to the Ordnance? If the army officer bought weapons in Bhutan, why do they need return them to ordnance?
As Army started investigating the issue, it came across two rampant misuse of the privilege of personnel to buy private weapons. Only a army person can buy one weapon then what they are doing with lots of (NSP) weapons...?
Most of the weapons were brought from ordinance factories and then sold by the officers. Since the weapons are of a very high quality so they command a premium in the market.
What was more shocking is that some of the Army officials purchased the weapons and sold it off to the civilians at a handsome rate. It was also revealed that these senior Army officials sold off both weapons received from the ordinance depot and their personal weapons to suspicious people.
Quoting from memory.. The reason could be that the Defence Officers get these weapons from the Ordnance Factories at very relatively low (perhaps dirt cheap! ) prices (Think, hundreds or low thousands) . that if they were resold in the private market will fetch lots more. (think fifties (thousands) and sixties (Thousands)
There is a similar law that restricts anyone who returned from abroad and who legally brings a pistol or a gun with him from a trip abroad - from reselling it to anyone in india, even after his death. (The pistol would cost what 15000-20000 abroad, but can be sold for 1Lakh + in the licensed market domestically.) This was early 2000s prices
jagbani wrote:
What was more shocking is that some of the Army officials purchased the weapons and sold it off to the civilians at a handsome rate. It was also revealed that these senior Army officials sold off both weapons received from the ordinance depot and their personal weapons to suspicious people.
If canteen liquor can be bought and re-sold in the open market then surely personal weapons should not be very difficult.
In 2002, then brigadier R. P. Singh of the Maratha Light Infantry leading 35 Infantry brigade was caught diverting discounted army liquor into the open market.
He earned the sobriquet " Booze Brigadier" and was charged in a court martial, before the army terminated his services in 2004. Singh's transgressions happened when he was posted in Delhi with the Maratha Light Infantry. He had set up an organised racket of overdrawing liquor from the CSD and ferrying them in trucks to Delhi-Haryana border and selling them in Haryana.
But yes, ammunition is hard to get by....else the Naxals wouldn't be taking great pains to raid state police armouries every now and then.
Each corps of the Indian Army will be allocated an EW system. While the basic electronic components in each remain the same, the packaging and inbuilt mobility caters for the operational role of the corps. For instance, the IEWS for mountain terrain is mounted on smaller, lighter vehicles and has a manpack component. In contrast, TWBEWS is mounted on armoured, tracked vehicles and will be allocated to each of the three strike corps.
The progress desh has made in the domain of EW and Radars is mind-boggling. I mean, look at the article and see the amount of effort being expended to induct the EW system across the length and breadth of the IA. And then there is Samyukta - which from whatever little I understand of it, is in a different league all-together. If the stories I've heard of this system are correct, nothing in EM spectrum is safe. We all talk about guns and tanks but it seems a quite revolution is happening in the C4I and EW domain. And these are force multipliers in true sense.
Chennai: The CB-CID on Sunday arrested Retired Lt Col Kandasamy Ramraj and sent him to remand after he confessed to shooting at 13-year old Chennai boy Dilson.
Exactly a week after 13-year-old Dilson was shot dead in a defence area, the Crime Branch CID has arrested Lt Col Kandasamy Ramaraj. Investigators said that the 58-year-old retired army officer confessed to the shooting, reportedly because he was fed up of the boys tresspassing into the area to pluck fruits.
The weapon used in the crime has been recovered from the Cooum river where Ramaraj had thrown it after shooting Dilson.
CBCID ADGP R Sekar said, "The rifle used to shoot Dilson was a licensed private weapon that Lt Col Ramraj had bought a few years ago. His license was from Jabalpur. The weapon is 30 calibre rifle.
Over the last one week, several army officials including a serving Lt Col were questioned by the CB CID. On the basis of statements of an eye witness, the police zeroed in on Ramraj. He was arrested on his way to his hometown Madurai and has now been booked under Section 302 of the IPC.
"He should get severe punishment and go through the same pain that my son went through. Such people should not live in the country. I am thankful to everyone who spoke up for my son. I want justice," Dilson's mother said.
jimmy_moh wrote:Hope he will get severe punishment according to the brutual act he has commited , thanks to Crime branch for arresting the culprit at earliest
Chennai: The CB-CID on Sunday arrested Retired Lt Col Kandasamy Ramraj and sent him to remand after he confessed to shooting at 13-year old Chennai boy Dilson.
Exactly a week after 13-year-old Dilson was shot dead in a defence area, the Crime Branch CID has arrested Lt Col Kandasamy Ramaraj. Investigators said that the 58-year-old retired army officer confessed to the shooting, reportedly because he was fed up of the boys tresspassing into the area to pluck fruits.
The weapon used in the crime has been recovered from the Cooum river where Ramaraj had thrown it after shooting Dilson.
CBCID ADGP R Sekar said, "The rifle used to shoot Dilson was a licensed private weapon that Lt Col Ramraj had bought a few years ago. His license was from Jabalpur. The weapon is 30 calibre rifle.
Over the last one week, several army officials including a serving Lt Col were questioned by the CB CID. On the basis of statements of an eye witness, the police zeroed in on Ramraj. He was arrested on his way to his hometown Madurai and has now been booked under Section 302 of the IPC.
"He should get severe punishment and go through the same pain that my son went through. Such people should not live in the country. I am thankful to everyone who spoke up for my son. I want justice," Dilson's mother said.
Quite a sad sack.
I guess that he would never had imagined that things would go so horribly wrong when he got out of bed that morning.
Post retirement , he does not have to worry about accommodation issues any more. He is set for a good 10 -15 years in a good, centrally located government housing scheme.
schowdhuri wrote:One of things that is never mentioned is the role of artillery. My fathers regiment, 91 Mountain won battle honours for Asal Uttar. The rajputs, took off the wheels & shields of the 75/24 guns, and in the fields, the Pakistanis almost could not see them.
Could you ask your father and pen down some memories? It is important.
Shiv,
I did ask him - his health permitting, he will come up with the story in a week or so.
when I first saw the post. 