The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

Pranav wrote:
Jarita wrote:Don't get why the churches are so against Anna Hazare. The message has filtered down to the lambs and christians in social media are actively criticizing him
Why is it surprising. Most Church denominations are primarily political organizations controlled by foreign elites. The solution is to educate the "lambs" about the true nature of their leaders and organizations.
Over 60 years we have let politics divide us in terms of religion, linguism and caste.

Religion should remain a private matter. After all it is about what the soul believes in, or does not believe too.

The other two should be consigned to the dustbin of history. After all humans are == only.
rahulm
BRFite
Posts: 1300
Joined: 19 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rahulm »

Also, the current RTI act owes its parentage to AH's attempts to get this act passed in Maharashtra including the provision to retain babu's file noting's which the government wanted deleted.

The RTI is working wonderfully for those who care and know how to use it for getting government services.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

rajanb wrote: Religion should remain a private matter. After all it is about what the soul believes in, or does not believe too.
Religion has been a political tool for millennia. We have to recognize that, and deal with it.
Last edited by Pranav on 20 Aug 2011 09:37, edited 1 time in total.
sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by sanjeevpunj »

Rahulm wrote:.
Also, the current RTI act owes its parentage to AH's attempts to get this act passed in Maharashtra including the provision to retain babu's file noting's which the government wanted deleted.
The RTI is working wonderfully for those who care and know how to use it for getting government services.
I feel Rahul and AH see eye to eye, as far as RTI is concerned, at least. That explains the pro-AH stance of Rahul.
rahulm
BRFite
Posts: 1300
Joined: 19 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rahulm »

Let me get the record straight. I am not pro or against AH. And lets please not make this about people.Its the issue of corruption.

I am not sure of many of his methods including publicly flogging alcohol offenders and forced sterilisations.

I am however, anti corruption. Personally, I have suffered a lot to get my work done by the people who are supposed to serve me simply because I will not pay and use influence (if I have any). Some of these stories are in the police thread.

Just the threat of filing an RTI has helped people like me to get the services I need from the babudom. So in that sense I applaud the RTI. AH happens to be its father.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

Bangalore Day 4: One lakh supporters in city for Anna - http://ibnlive.in.com/news/day-4-one-la ... 0-119.html

Tihar jail staff, inmates miss their dear protester- Anna Hazare - http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ti ... re_1577718

Govt in huddle as support continues to swell for Hazare's indefinite fast - http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 48633.html

Imams from MP to join in Hazare''s agitation at Ramlila Maidan - http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 94637.html
Bhopal, Aug 19 (PTI) Over 40 imams (Muslim religious heads) from Madhya Pradesh are going to Delhi to join in social activist Anna Hazare's agitation for Jan-lokpal Bill. "The issues raised by Anna through the Lokpal bill campaign is aimed at the betterment of the country and therefore we have decided to extend full support," All India Imam Sangathan's Secretary and city `Qazi' of Guna, Noorullah Yusuf Zai said. "Nearly 40-45 imams from various districts of the state will join Annaji at Ramlila Maidan tomorrow in his campaign," Zai told PTI. He said they were responding to the call given by All India Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind's General Secretary, Maulana Mehmood Madni. Imams from Ujjain, Guna, Bhopal, Indore, Khargone, Shivpuri, Guna and other places will reach the national capital tomorrow, he said. Corruption is forbidden in Islam and the corrupt would never be pardoned by the Allah, Zai said, adding that the holy month of Ramzan was the best time to extend support for the noble cause. PTI MAS KRK
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

rahulm wrote:Let me get the record straight. I am not pro or against AH. And lets please not make this about people.Its the issue of corruption.

I am not sure of many of his methods including publicly flogging alcohol offenders and forced sterilisations.

I am however, anti corruption. Personally, I have suffered a lot to get my work done by the people who are supposed to serve me simply because I will not pay and use influence (if I have any). Some of these stories are in the police thread.

Just the threat of filing an RTI has helped people like me to get the services I need from the babudom. So in that sense I applaud the RTI. AH happens to be its father.
Have had the same problem Rahul. And surprise surprise, sometimes just the threat works. When it doesn't I have filed an RTI and the the work gets done.

And I believe, there are RTI NGOs who will guide you, as one did me, to file my first RTI, ensuring that the request was worded unambigously. This ensured that I had to get a response which was unambigous!
Theo_Fidel

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Theo_Fidel »

hnair wrote:In my view, this "corruption" is nothing but common Indians (of all economic background) fixing issues within various rigid westernized frameworks imposed on an immensely diverse country. The solutions for this seems to be even more westernized frameworks (like pakis and more islam). The US had same issues till the early 90s and increasing diversity started throwing their systems too. But what they did is first accept that some systems dont work always and then appreciated the solutions (they too called it corruption) for it. They changed their system to incorporate what was once "corruption". Most recent one was outsourcing most of military sectors to private organizations, despite intense hue and cry. That is what makes them tick, not march into washington, pull down a POTUS and look at European or Chinese systems of law for solutions.
+1.

Also what pisses of people is that the 'winning' political combination does not include any of these trianga waving groups. As far as the Congress are concerned this is not their vote bank. Their vote bank is the NREGA (thinly disguised bribe)loving / ration card using(another bribe) / job&education reserving(another bribe) and non English speaking crowd. How in heavens name are you going to rail against corruption when so much of Indian society is revoltingly demanding pelf all the time. Mostly because they are desperate mind you. Apologize for this, but Indian society is a stinking cess-pool of very revolting stuff, esp. for the really poor who are still 75% of society. While they are the most affected, what they really want is a chance to play the corruption game. Of course the moment they do the middle class is up in arms.

What the middle class should think of is how to reorganize society so it is fair for all, finish the unfinished portions of social reform. But this would require them to integrate with Indian society, something anathema to those who aim to escape Indian society constantly.

Think about it folks the Congress showed this group the middle finger and won easily last time. Next time around there is going to be right to food, expanded NREGA, reservation in more sectors(private?) and even more cash bonuses. UPA might (will?) still lose but their vote bank is still intact. When the next group messes things up, the princeling will be swept into power. No lessons learned.

This is the Indian circle of life.
prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2834
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by prahaar »

Theo_Fidel, I usually do not post, practically a lurker but your prescription sounds more impractical than the proposed Lokpal.

A middle class that is not empowered to oust an conspicuously corrupt govt. due to the reasons outlined by you, is expected to
"What the middle class should think of is how to reorganize society so it is fair for all, finish the unfinished portions of social reform. But this would require them to integrate with Indian society, something anathema to those who aim to escape Indian society constantly." Are not the things mentioned in the above sentence even more profound requiring strong political will?

This sounds like unnecessary equal-equal between inaction and current efforts to Do something. Some desire and action for change has to start somewhere, rather I doubt if this effort would have received the support if not for the acts of omissions and commissions by the current govt.
Virupaksha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3110
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Virupaksha »

Pranav wrote:Imams from MP to join in Hazare''s agitation at Ramlila Maidan - http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 94637.html
Bhopal, Aug 19 (PTI) Over 40 imams (Muslim religious heads) from Madhya Pradesh are going to Delhi to join in social activist Anna Hazare's agitation for Jan-lokpal Bill. "The issues raised by Anna through the Lokpal bill campaign is aimed at the betterment of the country and therefore we have decided to extend full support," All India Imam Sangathan's Secretary and city `Qazi' of Guna, Noorullah Yusuf Zai said. "Nearly 40-45 imams from various districts of the state will join Annaji at Ramlila Maidan tomorrow in his campaign," Zai told PTI. He said they were responding to the call given by All India Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind's General Secretary, Maulana Mehmood Madni. Imams from Ujjain, Guna, Bhopal, Indore, Khargone, Shivpuri, Guna and other places will reach the national capital tomorrow, he said. Corruption is forbidden in Islam and the corrupt would never be pardoned by the Allah, Zai said, adding that the holy month of Ramzan was the best time to extend support for the noble cause. PTI MAS KRK
The above news must be read in conjunction with
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r4645.html
The relation between the uncle and the nephew was so bitter that the JUH faction led by Mehmood Madani gave hidden support to Vastanvi which was an important factor in the defeat of Arshad Madni in the election of the V.C. in January this year.
......
Taking his defeat as a loss to the unquestionable sway of his family in Deoband Arshad Madani patched up with his nephew Memood Madni in the name of family prestige and launched campaign to oust Vastanvi ever since his election.
sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by sanjeevpunj »

History of Right to Information movement in India
The movement for the right to information was started in early 1990s by Mazdoor Kisaan Shakti Sangathan (which literally means ‘organisation for the empowerment of workers
and peasants’) in remote village Devdungri (Rajsamand district, Rajasthan). It was a movement to expose corruption in the famine relief work by demanding information
related to copies of bills, vouchers and muster rolls for workers recorded in government files. Following a period of struggle, MKSS succeeded in acquiring photocopies of the
relevant documents in which the siphoning of funds was clearly evident. The successful experiments of exposing corruption through access to information was good learning
experience for civil society, led to the demand of enactment of RTI law in Rajasthan. Government of Rajasthan yielded to pressure of movement and enacted the law in 2000.
Success of struggle of MKSS led to the genesis of a broader discourse on the right to information in India and RTI laws were enacted in some states of India. The demand for
national law started under the leadership of National Campaign on People’s Right to Information (NCPRI). In 1996, the Press Council of India headed by Justice P B Sawant
presented a draft model law on right to information to the Government of India. Aworking group (Shourie Committee) under the chairmanship of Mr. H D Shourie was set
up by the Central Government and given the mandate to prepare draft legislation on freedom of information. The Shourie Committee's Report and draft law were published in
1997. Eventually, the Shourie Committee draft law was reworked into the Freedom of Information Bill (FOI) 2000, which was passed in the Parliament in 2002 but it was not
notified. However, civil society raised several objections to FOI bill and suggested amendments to National Advisory Council. As a result of long drawn struggle of civil
society; the RTI was enacted in 2005 in India....
SOURCE:http://www.pria.org/forum/pdf/A%20Brief ... %20RTI.pdf
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Their vote bank is the NREGA (thinly disguised bribe)loving / ration card using(another bribe) / job&education reserving(another bribe) and non English speaking crowd.

What the middle class should think of is how to reorganize society so it is fair for all, finish the unfinished portions of social reform.
Mumbai Dabbawallahs are hardly middle class. The poor also need to use NREGA, roads, primary health centers and ration shops, from all of which resources are siphoned off on a large scale.
Theo_Fidel wrote: Apologize for this, but Indian society is a stinking cess-pool of very revolting stuff
No need to apologize. But the groups opposing Anna Hazare are in fact responsible for the situation, and want to keep it that way for their own vested interests.

Don't you think that the most stinking, revolting, cess-pool phenomenon is a person like John Dayal, with vested interests and foreign backing, who is fighting the anti-corruption movement.
Last edited by Pranav on 20 Aug 2011 10:44, edited 2 times in total.
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

sanjeevpunj wrote:
History of Right to Information movement in India
The movement for the right to information was started in early 1990s by Mazdoor Kisaan Shakti Sangathan (which literally means ‘organisation for the empowerment of workers
and peasants’) in remote village Devdungri (Rajsamand district, Rajasthan). It was a movement to expose corruption in the famine relief work by demanding information
related to copies of bills, vouchers and muster rolls for workers recorded in government files. Following a period of struggle, MKSS succeeded in acquiring photocopies of the
relevant documents in which the siphoning of funds was clearly evident. The successful experiments of exposing corruption through access to information was good learning
experience for civil society, led to the demand of enactment of RTI law in Rajasthan. Government of Rajasthan yielded to pressure of movement and enacted the law in 2000.
Success of struggle of MKSS led to the genesis of a broader discourse on the right to information in India and RTI laws were enacted in some states of India. The demand for
national law started under the leadership of National Campaign on People’s Right to Information (NCPRI). In 1996, the Press Council of India headed by Justice P B Sawant
presented a draft model law on right to information to the Government of India. Aworking group (Shourie Committee) under the chairmanship of Mr. H D Shourie was set
up by the Central Government and given the mandate to prepare draft legislation on freedom of information. The Shourie Committee's Report and draft law were published in
1997. Eventually, the Shourie Committee draft law was reworked into the Freedom of Information Bill (FOI) 2000, which was passed in the Parliament in 2002 but it was not
notified. However, civil society raised several objections to FOI bill and suggested amendments to National Advisory Council. As a result of long drawn struggle of civil
society; the RTI was enacted in 2005 in India....
SOURCE:http://www.pria.org/forum/pdf/A%20Brief ... %20RTI.pdf

Thanks Sanjeev

:D So civil society does present draft laws and do influence the outcome of the final bill. Contrary to what some interviwed bimbos are saying on the news channels.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

sanjeevpunj wrote:
History of Right to Information movement in India
The movement for the right to information was started in early 1990s by Mazdoor Kisaan Shakti Sangathan (which literally means ‘organisation for the empowerment of workers
and peasants’) in remote village Devdungri (Rajsamand district, Rajasthan). It was a movement to expose corruption in the famine relief work by demanding information
related to copies of bills, vouchers and muster rolls for workers recorded in government files. Following a period of struggle, MKSS succeeded in acquiring photocopies of the
relevant documents in which the siphoning of funds was clearly evident. The successful experiments of exposing corruption through access to information was good learning
experience for civil society, led to the demand of enactment of RTI law in Rajasthan. Government of Rajasthan yielded to pressure of movement and enacted the law in 2000.
Success of struggle of MKSS led to the genesis of a broader discourse on the right to information in India and RTI laws were enacted in some states of India. The demand for
national law started under the leadership of National Campaign on People’s Right to Information (NCPRI). In 1996, the Press Council of India headed by Justice P B Sawant
presented a draft model law on right to information to the Government of India. Aworking group (Shourie Committee) under the chairmanship of Mr. H D Shourie was set
up by the Central Government and given the mandate to prepare draft legislation on freedom of information. The Shourie Committee's Report and draft law were published in
1997. Eventually, the Shourie Committee draft law was reworked into the Freedom of Information Bill (FOI) 2000, which was passed in the Parliament in 2002 but it was not
notified. However, civil society raised several objections to FOI bill and suggested amendments to National Advisory Council. As a result of long drawn struggle of civil
society; the RTI was enacted in 2005 in India....
SOURCE:http://www.pria.org/forum/pdf/A%20Brief ... %20RTI.pdf
Seems to be a very biased history. Anna Hazare was the RTI pioneer.
Last edited by Pranav on 20 Aug 2011 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

Virupaksha wrote: The above news must be read in conjunction with
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r4645.html
The relation between the uncle and the nephew was so bitter that the JUH faction led by Mehmood Madani gave hidden support to Vastanvi which was an important factor in the defeat of Arshad Madni in the election of the V.C. in January this year.
......
Taking his defeat as a loss to the unquestionable sway of his family in Deoband Arshad Madani patched up with his nephew Memood Madni in the name of family prestige and launched campaign to oust Vastanvi ever since his election.

Thanks, it's important to make such links.
Theo_Fidel

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Theo_Fidel »

WRT RTI wasn't Rajasthan the first to enact the act, thereby shaming the government into reluctantly producing its own.

The middle class in India is not necessary for electoral success but it very much runs the nation and controls all the levers of power. Witness the unbearable internal pressure it put on the congress internally even though many won't vote for it. The poor control who gets into government and then the middle class tries to force its agenda on that government.

Indian society was pretty unreformed before independence. Those who shamelessly exploit it get elected. Why would they change it.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

Theo_Fidel wrote:WRT RTI wasn't Rajasthan the first to enact the act, thereby shaming the government into reluctantly producing its own.

The middle class in India is not necessary for electoral success but it very much runs the nation and controls all the levers of power. Witness the unbearable internal pressure it put on the congress internally even though many won't vote for it. The poor control who gets into government and then the middle class tries to force its agenda on that government.
Hazare had started the RTI movement in Maharashtra earlier, but Rajasthan's law was the first, it seems, followed by Maharashtra in 2003. The current central law is modeled on the Maharashtra one.
In the Maharashtra State, a campaign was started demanding for the Right to Information. As Peoples Representatives and Civil Servants are public servants and the citizens of Maharashtra are owners of the public money, the citizens have the right to ask the public servants how and in what manner they spend the public money. He pressed for legislating an Act for Right to Information. The first campaign was organized at the Azad Maidan, Mumbai, in 1997. The State Government was giving only promises, but it failed to crystallize it in many sessions of the Vidhan Sabha. He had to make agitations, dharnas, morchas, maun and fasts many times.


State-wide tours were held for awareness generation among people. Public addresses were organized in many towns and programmes were arranged specially for college students. Posters, banners and folders were printed and distributed in thousands. All this resulted in the awakening of the citizens and making them aware of their fundamental Right to Information.

The Government made many promises, but it failed to keep one. Any government never wants to decentralize its power and hand over power to people. Many politicians think that decentralization of power will lessen their importance, status and respect. So the Government was reluctant to make legislation for Right to Information. Finally, with zeal of ‘do-or-die’, Mr. Hazare went on fast-unto-death on August 9, 2003 at Azad Maidan, Mumbai. He decided that unless the Act is passed by the Government, he will not end his fast; rather he will sacrifice his life for peoples rights.

The Government of Maharashtra felt that his resolution is firm and He would not step back from his decision of ‘do-or-die’. On the 12th day of his fast, the Government of Maharashtra got the Bill signed by the President of India and enacted the law of ‘Right to Information’ in Maharashtra. The Act on ‘Right to Information’ is a revolutionary step towards strengthening democracy.
...

Prime Minister Mr. Manmohan Singh’s Government tabled a Bill for amendments in the existing Act which were detrimental to the very cause of the Act. Citizens had got these rights after 58 years of Independence after a long struggle. The proposed amendments were going to nullify these rights. To protest against the amendments, Mr. Hazare undertook fast unto death at Alandi near Pune.


Within two days of commencing his fast, people in various parts of Maharashtra started agitation on their own in support of my demand. People undertook ‘Rail-roko-andolan’ (train blockade) at nine places. Gradually, the agitation spread to other parts of India. Even some Indians residing in the US went on fast in support of my agitation. Prime Minister Mr. Manmohan Singh sent one of his Ministers as emissary to Alandi, as the agitation gathered momentum in and outside the country, and promised that the existing Right to Information Act would not be amended by the Central Government. He requested Mr. Hazare to end his fast and he gave it up on 9th day. Fortunately, the Government gave up the idea of proposed amendments in the Right to Information Act.

http://www.annahazare.org/rti.html
Theo_Fidel

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Theo_Fidel »

^^^^
I don't buy that. Can't recollect a single memory of his involvement.

It was the small poor groups in Rajasthan who proved that it works and thereby brought the idea to GOI. I particularly remember a small time social worker from Jaipur on TV. Also remember several poor dalit activists who marched to Delhi to get their voice heard. Many were attacked and killed as well IIRC. AH & Maharashtra were not much in the news or visible WRT RTI.

AH's achievements are powerful enough that he doesn't have to claim what should belong to others.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

Theo_Fidel wrote:^^^^
I don't buy that. Can't recollect a single memory of his involvement.
Actually the story is fairly well known - from various press reports:
The Maharashtra government’s Right to Information Act was legislated and implemented in 2003 only after he went on an indefinite hunger strike in July, 2003, in Mumbai’s Azad Maidan .. the Maharashtra version formed the basis of the central RTI Act in 2005.

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/prime ... n-128.html
As regards his forcing the govt to keep file notings available under RTI -
Anna Hazare calls off fast on RTI amendment
PTI Aug 19, 2006, 07.21pm IST

ALANDI: Social activist Anna Hazare on Saturday called off his 11-day-old hunger strike following the Centre's decision not to go ahead with a move to amend the Right to Information Act.

Hazare, 68, who began his fast on August 9 at this town, 30 km from Pune, was offered a glass of juice by Prithviraj Chavan, Union Minister of State in the PMO. The activist, who had started the hunger strike to oppose proposed amendments that would have diluted the law, [had] asserted he would not end the fast till the Central government dropped its plan.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... n-crusader
VinayB
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 19 Jan 2011 14:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by VinayB »

rahulm wrote:Further, AH's Lokpal is nothing but an attempt at introducing a direct democracy element where representative democracy is not working - a blended model in response to our special environment and challenges. Interesting framework.

There are successful working precedents to direct democracy (Switzerland). In a large, diverse and populous country like ours, a Lokpal like structure provides a framework. There may be other possibilities.

Direct democracy permits dismissal of officials - which is what RMji's Right to Recall was.

There are precedents to limited direct democracy structures even in Representative democracies so its not a fanciful idea.
Are there references to how 'direct democracy' works, or the model in Switzerland? The term is confusing.
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4502
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by vera_k »

ramana wrote:I think we are seeing an Indian color revolution and dont even know it. Thats what eh ortuside support ofr AH is.
The simpler answer is that this is the RSS getting ready to float its much anticipated left wing party. Baba Ramdev had to be dropped because he got identified with BJP.
VinayB
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 19 Jan 2011 14:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by VinayB »

Pranav wrote: This is where you go wrong. You can't call yourself a democracy without a transparent and verifiable voting system.
The point about verifiable voting system is valid, potential to hack was demonstrated, and it is being worked on. Latest I saw from a Swamy tweet was SC directing implementing it, EC already had a prototype mock poll. SSwamy is active on it. But saying that is not the same as an election has been tampered with.

GVL was involved on EVM issue. In this blog post he says 'the last two Lok Sabha elections held in 2004 and 2009 have proved all pollsters (including myself) wrong by a wide margin. Voters’ pulse is increasingly becoming difficult to gauge in national elections'

http://www.lensonnews.com/blog/26/4/1/g ... tions.html

more on this might be OT if not already.
habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6922
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by habal »

Indeed the crowds & slogans seem definitely linked to RSS but without any overt hindutva symbolism. Also the main reason behind the quick mobilisation of crowds at multiple venues, but this is also bolstered by the fact that there are many fence-sitters unwittingly pulled in as well because of the lack of any overt religious right or left wing allegiance of the chief promoters. The funny thing here is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with this as well.
VinayB
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 19 Jan 2011 14:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by VinayB »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
+1.

Also what pisses of people is that the 'winning' political combination does not include any of these trianga waving groups. As far as the Congress are concerned this is not their vote bank. Their vote bank is the NREGA (thinly disguised bribe)loving / ration card using(another bribe) / job&education reserving(another bribe) and non English speaking crowd. How in heavens name are you going to rail against corruption when so much of Indian society is revoltingly demanding pelf all the time. Mostly because they are desperate mind you. Apologize for this, but Indian society is a stinking cess-pool of very revolting stuff, esp. for the really poor who are still 75% of society. While they are the most affected, what they really want is a chance to play the corruption game. Of course the moment they do the middle class is up in arms.
the insult heaped on ration card using, job reservation seeking, non-English speaking crowd is unwarranted and without much basis as cause of corruption. This is like ELM's attitude to Ramdev supporters, particularly the non-English bit. this is the taste of what to come with uber elite jan lokpal.

a big section of the real middle class is ration card using, and reservation using. That does not make them the source of corruption or cause of corruption.

If the problem is with socialism, that argument needs to be differently worded. So far it appears that the Jan Lokpal proponents are also supporters of socialism.
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9374
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Hari Seldon »

The Sacramento (spelling) Bee has a photo feature on Hazare. Good one.

http://blogs.sacbee.com/photos/2011/08/ ... -begi.html
IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9365
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by IndraD »



Prasoon's excellent poem for Anna Hazare-itna kyu sote hai hum :)
rahulm
BRFite
Posts: 1300
Joined: 19 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rahulm »

As far as I am aware, the Indian constitution does not explicitly prohibit direct democracy (but I will be happy to be corrected). The debate around the means is raging but the end result- a Lokpal with people oversight over its functioning cannot be unconstitutional.

In its purest form, in Direct democracy people decide for themselves as against a set of representatives making decisions -(representative democracy) for the public.

From this theory, various models have evolved mainly in Switzerland and some in the US. A referendum is an example of direct democracy in action. The US, Australia, NZ to name a few sometimes practice direct democracy (referendum).

There is plenty on the web. Just ask Lord Googleswara.

So as I mentioned earlier, the Lokpal fits into the direct democracy model and is probably worth a try.

Did we ever even have a referendum in India? (Honest question. Yes, I know its expensive and the EVM's are rigged but still :D )

The passing of the RTI in 2005 is, therefore, quite a seminal event as for the first time in the history of independent India it offers the junta a legislative tool to fix accountability with time bound response times into government functioning. It also imposes penalties on the Babu which are deducted from his/her salary in case of delayed or no response. Which is one of the reasons it works.

Read "To the last bullet" by Vinita Kamte (ACP Ashok Kamte's wife) to get a real understanding of how because of the RTI alone she was able to get to most of the facts of those fateful days in the face of determined stonewalling and non-cooperation from the police in-spite of being Mr.Kamte's wife. She is grateful to the RTI for helping her cause. That and her legal background (I think she has one).

The RTI had its share of detractors but for "retail consumers" of government services like me and plenty others its has been a godsend.

At the retail level, right now, the only thing that gets babudom moving is the threat of or an actual RTI application. No IPC, police, courts, CVC and other alphabet soup anti corruption mechanisms work because all of these are contingent on enlisting other government machinery. The RTI empowers the individual.

As I understand it, the Lokpal is the next step up and seeks to empower society through representation and oversight. Not a bad concept. Worth trying anyway.

The RTI,Lokpal, policy reform etc are each by themselves not a magic bullet to solve corruption but each one has its place and taken together could provide a good structure to make significant inroads into this mess.
jagga
BRFite
Posts: 661
Joined: 22 Mar 2010 02:07
Location: Himalaya Ki God Mein

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by jagga »

Lokpal is no magical bullet against corruption:Nandan Nilekani :evil:
Nandan Nilekani, the chairperson of Unique Identification Authority of India and former Infosys CEO, has said that activist Anna Hazare's protest was unjustified when the Lokpal Bill was before Parliament for consideration.
Read the comments, about 1624 comments have already been posted by readers. Good to know people wont take any s**t from the self styled intellectuals like NN.
If you can take some time out watch this video (from National ID thread). I am not sure how much truth is behind whatever Vishwa Bandhu Gupta says in this video, decide yourself.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1148804
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9433
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by vijayk »

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/the-a ... i/834441/0
At least, two things about Anna Hazare’s movement are indisputable: its dominant anti-Congress impulse, and its distinctly middle-class character. It is evident that middle India has turned against the Congress. Of course, the Congress apologists will say that it doesn’t matter. That middle classes do not vote governments in or out, the poor in the villages do. Also, those voters in villages think differently. These Congressmen are wrong on both counts. Because it is a new India in a new, hyper-connected world. The size and the power of the middle class, after 20 years of reform, is enormously greater than the old-school Congress politician (which is how, funnily, you would now describe most of today’s younger Congressmen) would imagine. The Congressmen are also the least likely to acknowledge that the anger that they now face on the urban street is a calamity they have themselves worked so assiduously on inviting upon themselves.
For seven years now, the Congress never bothered to send even a thank-you card to the middle classes that voted so overwhelmingly for it — in fact, in 2009, it voted for Manmohan Singh who was really the party’s first, genuine middle-class icon.
jagga
BRFite
Posts: 661
Joined: 22 Mar 2010 02:07
Location: Himalaya Ki God Mein

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by jagga »

Another round of mud slinging by congress & their stooges in media have begin against Baba Ramdev.
Baba Ramdev goes high on heels
Baba Ramdev’s anti-corruption protests may have seen a massive letdown last month, but his comeback ‘high’ is more than evident. Over the last two days, he’s been turning heads with his fashionable footwear — a pair of traditional khadau, or Indian clogs, with prominent platform heels. The custom-made pair makes him three inches taller than his 5ft 7inch frame. While his followers say he has always worn such footwear, it is only now that the thousands who’re on the streets are noticing it.
Celebrity stylist Rishi Raj says, “Maybe this is Ramdev’s way of exploring metrosexuality? He certainly seems to be getting in touch with his feminine side more often lately (remember the salwar-kameez disguise)? Maybe his yogasanas are not helping anymore in his desire to feel ‘elevated’.”
And the reason behind this is below
Haridwar: Ramdev takes out anti-corruption rally
Ramdev along with Balkrishna and sadhus led the rally which was attended by hundreds of people carrying national flags, placards and shouting slogans against the Centre
I haven't found any video of rally yet on news channel.I wont be surprised if con-media blacks out any such news.

Anyway,I love below phootoo's from outside Tihar :D
Image
Image
Image
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9433
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by vijayk »

VinayB wrote:amidst the delirium, some facts to bear in mind

1. INC did not rule India for about 54 out of 64 years by being stupid.

2. One family did not control INC for that 64 years by being stupid or having stupid handlers.
They may not be that bright. The people are too stupid to understand the games being played.
3. 'middle class' is not a political entity. Best possible defn. is on some income range. There is no data that middle class has a common political interest or issues that it votes on.
I hope SONIA and her dummies are dumb enough to keep believing that for another 3 years.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/the-a ... mi/834441/
In its seven years in power, the Congress shunned the urban middle classes so much it has even stopped being on talking terms with them. The party can be forgiven for reading the 2004 verdict wrong, believing that the poorest Indians, irritated by the BJP’s India Shining, voted the NDA out. But its refusal to read the 2009 verdict for its aspirational impulse was not merely poor political judgment. It also resulted from a cynical and intellectually lazy thought process. Inevitably, it developed into an auto-immune syndrome where the party has been busy preying on its own government and its own new vote-base among India’s growing aspirational classes.

For seven years now, the Congress never bothered to send even a thank-you card to the middle classes that voted so overwhelmingly for it — in fact, in 2009, it voted for Manmohan Singh who was really the party’s first, genuine middle-class icon. Worse, its own povertarian basic instinct had so locked its mind it failed to read the verdict correct. Its Rajya Sabha-ist megaphones continued to boast that its NREGA, loan waiver, increased OBC reservations, cynical oil subsidies and other such populist policies had won it a second term in power. If it continued to reach out to the poorest Indians, an Indira Gandhi kind of sweep was guaranteed for Rahul in 2014. It, therefore, did nothing for the urban middle classes, its leaders never spoke to them, and even indulged in rhetoric that made upwardly mobile, hard-working urban and semi-urban Indians think they were immoral or guilty. That they had no idea that a majority of their countrymen were still stone-poor, nor did they care. As if these aspirational Indians were criminals who vacuum-cleaned all the spoils of economic reform while a vast majority had been left behind. With Sonia and Rahul Gandhi not speaking to them, a sullen prime minister in a shell, and the NAC and other durbari civil society stalwarts and Congressmen constantly maligning reform and the government’s policies, the middle class felt orphaned, alienated and rebuffed. Until they found their new interlocutors, and leaders, in Team Anna.

The Congress may not have erred like this if it looked at facts. In 2009, nine of our states had below poverty line (BPL) populations higher than the national average of 37.2. These nine states, Bihar, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Manipur, Orissa, Tripura and Uttar Pradesh, together account for 247 seats in Lok Sabha. Together, these have for more than 80 per cent of India’s extreme poor. How many of these seats did the Congress win? Only 63, or just a quarter. Out of the rest, the less poor, and thereby more urbanised and aspirational states, it won its remaining 143, or almost half the seats on offer (296). Look at the party’s performance in the poorest states of India (BPL figures in parentheses): Orissa (57.2), 6 out of 21 seats; Bihar (54.4), 2 out of 40; Chhattisgarh (49.4), 1 out of 11; and Jharkhand (45.3), 1 out of 14. If NREGA, loan-waiver and nanny-state yojanas were winning the Congress votes, then it would seem the benefits of those schemes were going to richer, less-deserving states. Even in Gujarat, in spite of Modi’s sway, the Congress’s strike rate was much better, at 11 out of 26. It is in keeping with the trend because Gujarat has been one of our fastest growing and urbanising states. Similarly, while the Congress clings to the delusion that rural India loves it, the fact is the party, or its allies, swept every major city in India with the exception of Bangalore. But its basic, outdated, socialist and povertarian instinct rendered it incapable of acknowledging, or even understanding, this massive churn in Indian society, and electorate.
4. we are not araps. Our cousins to the west think they are. We have a multi-party democracy. We dont need to change government using color revolutions.
We don't need color revolution but we need a cause to rally the lethargic middle class. The theme of Sonia Gandoos was communal virus the last 2 elections: blame every single problem starting from polluted air to Pakistani terrorism on RSS/BJP and Gujarat riots.

http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?278032
Uncivil Measures
The message is clear: NGOs/CSOs, who serve the Congress party's interest, either overtly or covertly, are "constructive" and therefore welcome. Those who don't are to be treated as predators and deserve a suitable drubbing. For this loyalty test the Congress Party has set simple criteria-assurance of obsessive, aggressive and incessant BJP and Modi bashing no matter what the occasion, no matter what the issue-because the Congress party knows it can ride back to power
5. in a democracy, if incumbent is corrupt, venal, even stupid, first thing is voting them out. It is as simple as driving down a slope and wanting to stop - take foot off the accelerator.
This the great strategy of Sonia and cronies. There is no incumbent. Who will you vote out? Vote out CON party and elect Maya? Or Vote out Maya and elect Mulyam? Use Secularism argument to force any of them to support CON party. Vote out CON party and elect Laloo? He too has to support CON gandoos. Vote out CON party and elect NCP? No problem. She can do business with him. Vote out DMK and elect AIADMK? No problem. She can do business with either of them. Vote out CON party and elect Left front. No problem. The DIE-nasty is safe. Vote out LEFT and elect Mamta? Don't worry. Madam got hooks there too.

This movement is a fight to reform the SYSTEM not just incumbent. That is why many people are attracted to it.


This is the process to raise the consciousness of Indians and put checks and balances in the system. If you put these arguments as against Sonia or UPA, you are branded as Sanghi or right-wing or sangh parivar and destroyed.

They have made every effort to brand it as RSS, communal and Hindu right wing campaign.
6. the argument 'all parties are corrupt' is not stupid, but made with vested interest in keeping INC in power. I.K.Gujral is not equal-equal with 2G.
The movement is not about supporting BJP or any alliance. It is to reform the system.
7. An ombudsman does not need to be judge/police/prosecutor all in one Org to be an ombudsman
It is not about ombudsman. It is about common man's desire to have accountability in the system.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35192
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chetak »

The kangress has began the war of the civil societies. :lol:

They have now dusted off and unleashed Aruna Roy of the "famed" NAC, an elderly woman, suitably frail looking, greyed hair, sweet reasonableness and all.

sibal, alvi, manish tiwari and other useless hitmen kangressi gang members nowhere to be seen on the battle field.

verily, the rani speaketh!! 8)
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16271
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by SwamyG »

rajanb:
Why do you want to stick to 5 years? On #3, what I mean is an individual can never be an MP for more than 2000 days or two terms. I did not mean to say the MP term is for 2 years. On reading my words again, I see it could convey a different meaning. If staggering makes sense and adds value, sure why not :-) My point is we should not have a system just because it existed for hundreds of years. All systems have their pluses and minuses. IMO, India now has the opportunity to improve the Westminster System, so the leaders have to seize it.
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

SwamyG wrote:rajanb:
Why do you want to stick to 5 years? On #3, what I mean is an individual can never be an MP for more than 2000 days or two terms. I did not mean to say the MP term is for 2 years. On reading my words again, I see it could convey a different meaning. If staggering makes sense and adds value, sure why not :-) My point is we should not have a system just because it existed for hundreds of years. All systems have their pluses and minuses. IMO, India now has the opportunity to improve the Westminster System, so the leaders have to seize it.
SwamyG

1) Agree that it should be two terms

2) I chose a 5 year term and the 20% "churn" rate from an economical pov.

3) I agree to your point that we should not cling to 100 yo systems. We should also revamp systems like standing committees. Ensure Make sure that they move faster than the snail's pace they do currently. Keep them busy so they don't have time for mischief. :P Make sure senior babudom is appointed in key posts on the basis of merit. (Somewhat similiar to the American oversight and appointment processes)
Important point is both the minister and babudom can be roasted (or praised) for any slackness or lack of performance.

4) Also in the minesterial domain, let the cabinet minister be a politico. And to illustrate an example the MoD, a politico, but he should have a retired, reputed Senior Officer. One from each of the services as MoS'. Basically a thought to improve efficiencies of each ministry so we can match need with procurement and deployment at a much faster pace. Ten years for an MMRCA contract is a bit too silly.

No system is perfect, dropping 100 yo systems, as you rightly suggested, will most likely lead to better accountability and efficiencies.

Cheers
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

chetak wrote:The kangress has began the war of the civil societies. :lol:

They have now dusted off and unleashed Aruna Roy of the "famed" NAC, an elderly woman, suitably frail looking, greyed hair, sweet reasonableness and all.

sibal, alvi, manish tiwari and other useless hitmen kangressi gang members nowhere to be seen on the battle field.
verily, the rani speaketh!! 8)
No wonder the air seem cleaner. :rotfl:
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sc ... _year#2011

The list of economic scandals in India since Independence.

A friend sent me an email which claimed that the estimated loss to the country was in the region of US$20 Trillion.

Does anyone think its true? :shock:
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9433
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by vijayk »

http://politicsparty.com/SONIA_ABSENCE.php
http://politicsparty.com

This guy claims that there is some speculation that Sonia is back in Italy. Who knows? This secretive dynasty don't speak a word but bought every Indian that matters in the media.
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Kanson »

I think our current parliamentary system made sense at independence when India thus so far and wide, needs a representative to represent the people. But these representatives never represent the people all they did is to look after them and their party. Did anyone of them returned to their constituency as they did during election time and discussed with the people about how they are to be represented in the Parliament about various issues. No. They are their only to take care of their party views. Today with advancement of technologies in communication, every people can represent themselves and can make their view know to the party interested. It is such empowerment that will change the dynamics of politics.
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16271
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by SwamyG »

rajanb wrote:Over 60 years we have let politics divide us in terms of religion, linguism and caste.

Religion should remain a private matter. After all it is about what the soul believes in, or does not believe too.

The other two should be consigned to the dustbin of history. After all humans are == only.
OT.
If you can consign the other two to dustbin, I recommend adding religion too. Religions have caused so much trouble, and there is no proof for the existence of gods. It is not done so because no politician has the temerity to go against the public sentiment. It is easy to blame linguism and caste but not religion.
Our politicians still seek vote on all those three factors.
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

SwamyG wrote:
rajanb wrote:Over 60 years we have let politics divide us in terms of religion, linguism and caste.

Religion should remain a private matter. After all it is about what the soul believes in, or does not believe too.

The other two should be consigned to the dustbin of history. After all humans are == only.
OT.
If you can consign the other two to dustbin, I recommend adding religion too. Religions have caused so much trouble, and there is no proof for the existence of gods. It is not done so because no politician has the temerity to go against the public sentiment. It is easy to blame linguism and caste but not religion.
Our politicians still seek vote on all those three factors.
True. But religion, or the existence or lack of existence, is a personal matter. And politicians should not have control over it.

Sigh. Very utopian.

But coming to another point. If you take away the lure of filthy lucre from a politicians life, don't you think people who want to truly serve will step forward?
Locked