'Make in India' Single engined fighter

[Rakesh]

Seems like an eternity, since I last did this! Adding #9 and #10 to the list

Any MII effort in India is simply a way to redirect as much of the spending on defense to create a multiplier effect in other sectors of the economy. It won't make huge dent but even a small one will start the ball rolling.

These are just "some" of the other sectors of the economy that is doing just fine without F-Solahs being made in India. They are not just surviving, they are THRIVING! The Ball does not need to roll, the Ball is already moving full speed ahead!

1. AUTO INDUSTRY
Nissan exported 700,000 'made-in-India' cars
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/auto ... 395494.cms

2. POWER INDUSTRY
ABB to make India export hub for high-end power gear
http://www.livemint.com/Industry/cGBTC9 ... -gear.html

3. AEROSPACE INDUSTRY
Honeywell has been helping Make in India for close to half a century
http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... ni/553165/

4. TELECOM INDUSTRY
Here's How India Is Becoming A Hub For Smartphone Manufacturing In South Asia
https://www.forbes.com/sites/krnkashyap ... 717cfc3be8

5. AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY
To feed UAE, India plans special farms, infrastructure for export
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 484504.cms

6. TRANSPORT INDUSTRY
'Made in India' metro coaches in Australia!
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/education/ ... 84529.html

7. DEFENCE INDUSTRY
United Arab Emirate guns to fire with Made in India shells
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 678036.cms

8. METAL INDUSTRY
Steel mills in India reversing import woes with export push
http://www.livemint.com/Industry/tzUBba ... -push.html

9. ? INDUSTRY - Pick One
Siemens opens its first digital factory in India
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 468083.cms

10. TELECOM INDUSTRY
Apple 'Make in India' to Target Indian Youth For Expanding User Base
http://www.news18.com/news/tech/apple-m ... 52413.html

[Rakesh]

The point is in context of the gripens advertised ability to do so. With what load it achieves this, I have no clue. As for tactical relevance, that is for the IAF to decide. Perhaps it is meaningful and perhaps it's just marketing. I was simply curious as to whether the f16 has any potential here.

Considering that the Gripen E flew for the first time only recently, we have to understand that Saab had been trying to sell us vaporware during the whole MRCA saga. Keeping that in mind it is better to take any figures they put out for the Gripen with a large bucketful of salt. I would more readily believe paki specs for the JF-17 at this point.

Amen...what a farce of a plane the Gripen is.

Cainji, Saab can say whatever they want. It is their job to sell a plane and they will say anything to sell it. Other aircraft manufacturers are no different. It's all part of the game.

How important is Supercruise in the MMRCA competition?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/06 ... mmrca.html
From 28 June 2009

[Cosmo_R]

^Rakesh: What exactly is the point you are trying to make?

[Cain Marko]

Considering that the Gripen E flew for the first time only recently, we have to understand that Saab had been trying to sell us vaporware during the whole MRCA saga. Keeping that in mind it is better to take any figures they put out for the Gripen with a large bucketful of salt. I would more readily believe paki specs for the JF-17 at this point.

Amen...what a farce of a plane the Gripen is.

Cainji, Saab can say whatever they want. It is their job to sell a plane and they will say anything to sell it. Other aircraft manufacturers are no different. It's all part of the game.

How important is Supercruise in the MMRCA competition?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/06 ... mmrca.html
From 28 June 2009

Admiral Saar and Natchiket, I'm not trying to favor Saabs claims here but am curious... Was hoping that the IAF got a bird that has this capacity. As I've written before, the teen has some powerful stuff going for it.

[Kartik]

AW&ST article. Posting the relevant snippets.

The whole aim of the Make In India Single Engined fighter program is to kick-start a private sector aerospace firm that gets involved in much more than just final assembly or manufacturing know-how. So, if the F-16 proposal is to only shift final assembly to India and continue with the bulk of the manufacture in the US, then it beats the fundamental purpose of this program itself.

Makes the whole F-16 proposal look unappealing. My feeling is that Saab will be more amenable to transferring significantly more than just a FACO to India, since they know that an Indian order could completely transform the Gripen E's future. But, going with the Adani Group for a partnership just doesn't make sense to me, unless they're banking on the possible influence that the Adani Group has on the BJP govt, just as Dassault partnered with Reliance for their ability to grease the wheel of Indian bureaucracy and politics.

...

Lockheed hopes the deal with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd., the defense arm of India’s Tata Group, will help tip the scales in the F-16’s favor. If India chooses Lockheed’s Fighting Falcon over Saab’s Gripen for the new fleet, Tata will be Lockheed’s primary partner for final assembly of the aircraft in India, says John Rood, senior vice president of Lockheed Martin International.

The agreement is a clear nod to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” campaign to boost local manufacturing. If New Delhi elects to buy at least 100 F-16s, Lockheed is looking to permanently shift final assembly of all new Fighting Falcons to India.

In that case, Lockheed and Tata will set up and operate an in-country facility where the new fighters will be assembled, Rood says. Lockheed will still build most components in the U.S., but the two companies are in talks to potentially build certain parts in India.

If the deal materializes, Lockheed and Tata would jointly build a new Indian fleet of F-16Vs, also known as “Block 70s.” The V configuration sees the addition of Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 scalable, agile-beam active, electronically scanned array radar; a center pedestal display; a new advanced mission computer; a joint helmet-mounted cueing system; and the auto-ground collision-avoidance system. Lockheed is already under contract with Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan to upgrade a total of more than 300 F-16s to the V configuration.

..

[Philip]

Crony Capitalism making a return post UPA?
The logic behind the SE programme runs contrary to the "Make in India" mantra,where the LCA languishes like the second wife's child.Even here only 40%of the bird is supposedly desi. Even if LCA delays required another typle/line,HAL is a far better manufacturer than Adani,Reliance,Tata whoever.MKI prod. is decent and the MIG -29 upgrade done in record time much faster than the M2K upgrades ,yet to finish,fewer numbers and higher cost.

The Gripens flew at previous air shows.It isn't a paper plane as some are implying.I'm sure we'll get more out of a Gripen deal than an F-16.But even the entire SE expenditure can be drastically cut down by ordering "more of the same",aircraft already in the inventory like upgraded Flankers and Fulcrums and really pushing the LCA dev/prod to the max. possible.

[Karan M]

Crony Capitalism making a return post UPA?
Even here only 40%of the bird is supposedly desi.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... s-4383036/

Indigenous content of the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is 59.7 per cent by value and 75.5 per cent by numbers.
In a written reply to Lok Sabha, Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said that several parts of Tejas is of foreign origin. Out of total 344 LRUs (Line Replaceable Units) involved in the system level of LCA, a total of 210 LRUs have been produced indigenously and balance 134 LRUs are being imported from foreign companies, he said.

[brar_w]

The Gripens flew at previous air shows.

No it has not. The Gripen E/F has never flown at an air show. In fact it had its first flight just a few weeks ago. A full up aircraft with all FOC mission suite is still a year or more away from its first flight, and then you have the entire flight test program ahead.The Gripen E is as different from the Gripen C as the F/A-18E is from the Classic Hornet. For the purposes of development, development and operational flight testing, it is an entirely new aircraft that requires the full gamut of testing and certification.

[Kashi]

It's disheartening that folks will go any lengths to run down a desi product in favour of imported maal. I am no expert in this field, but I fail to see how private firms manufacturing phoren maal will jump start "aerospace industry" in India, but manufacturing our own LCA will not.

[Philip]

True,Gripen-E has just flown,but F-16 "Block 70" has not! There appears to be vested interest/s in seeing that the Tejas/LCA programme fails.IN ts place the "great brown hope" the AMCA will be touted as being supported by the SE OEM,leapfrogging LCA dated tech.
This will ensure that we will NEVER possess our own independent aircraft design capability .These international vested interests do not want another IN success story with the IAF,depriving them with billions of $$$ every year. They still marvel at the manner in which we leveraged a simple frigate design,the Leander,which possessed no missiles at all barring modest point defence Sea Cat into the G class and then embolden by this grand achievement gave us the confidence to leverage the Kashin class into the Delhis,and now we're building our own carriers and N-subs.Albeit,there is considerable Russian help,but the design and execution are ours to trumpet!

Acquiring F-16s-whatever block,would be such a catastrophic regression in Indian aircraft design,conceived by either a blockhead of historic proportions,or a cold-blooded agent for firang interests.

[brar_w]

True,Gripen-E has just flown,but F-16 "Block 70" has not!

The F-16V is the F-16 block 70. In fact Lockheed has Block 70/72 as the block configuration for its F-16V upgrades. That aircraft first flew in Q4 2015 and has the new mission computer, AESA radar, cockpit enhancements, Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance system etc in it. Everything else that Lockheed may offer for the Indian version is already flying and mostly operational with one one its customers or multiple ones. Lockheed does not need to create a company owned F-16 block 70 to prove out the changes it is incorporating. Those changes are already flying and have been certified. The Gripen program on the other hand created a completely new variant that is larger and one that requires the complete gamut of flight testing to be fully certified hence IOC and FOC are likely to come next decade barring any additional delays. A full up Gripen-E prototype with full mission systems won't even fly before 2018 or 19.

The AN/APG-83 AESA has been fully certified and is in full rate production and first operational unit was delivered to an international customer (Taiwan) late last year. The USAF ordered 72 units in June/2017 and all will be delivered by January of 2019. With the US orders, the AESA radar now has 214 confirmed orders and all will be delivered well before 2022 when the last of the Taiwanese F-16V (jets upgraded to the V configuration) jets is to be delivered back to their air-force. As far as product maturity Lockheed is way ahead, though granted the Gripen-E is much more capable but that will be reflected in its lack of maturity and cost. For all practical purposes the Gripen-E is a single engine Rafale (and in a good way) but likely at 80% of its cost. But neither are suitable for the IAF at this time given how close it is to getting the enhanced MK1 etc which makes this particular endeavor completely pointless since it can probably be produced at a 1/3 of the APUC of the Gripen-E under MII.

[ragupta]

It is more of a strategic decision than a technical one.
Can F-16 deliver weapon at a range desired for single engine and MCRA fighter, yes it can.
India needs close to 400 single engine fighter, can it be met by just LCA, no, not at the current capacity.
To acquire that number and at the same time build capacity, private player are needed(they too are nationalist and Indian, sometime posters seem to indicate otherwise). We have seem in the past that public sector is slow in building capability for various reasons.

Involving private player, selecting strategic partner, getting a platform that can deliver range of proven weapons, non dependent on third party should be the reason for setting production/assembly line for second single engine type fighter,.

[Rakesh]

Philip you could not be more wrong. While there is not a single flying variant of the F-16 Block 70, the fact that it can and will fly is as certain as the sky is blue. The fact that it is a lethal platform and can perform the task with aplomb, is also equally true. The fact that it can more than hold its own against what the PAF can throw at it - at this stage and in the near short term - is also beyond doubt. Make no mistake, this is one serious plane coming from a company that is arguably one of the masters of fighter aircraft technology.

Whether it is a survivable platform in the decades ahead, is a totally different story. And yes I am aware that the Tejas shares the same fate. But more on that later and in the LCA thread. The fact that what learning value - apart from local assembly - this platform offers is in serious doubt. After reading the AWST article that Kartik posted, it appears we are doing only FACO assembly of the F-16. That is even worse than what I had imagined. The fact that the platform has reached its zenith of upgradability and has no further meaningful upgrades, unless some serious cash is infused is also equally true.

Gripen E or F-16 Block 70 both represent a danger to the Tejas program - read Dileep's posts in the LCA thread. Neither one is good for the IAF. It is sad because as a country we spent (I am not concerned the financial aspect...money goes today, will come tomorrow and will go the next day and so on) so much TIME, EFFORT and ENERGY in designing quite an amazing plane considering the meagre resources successive governments - both Congress and BJP have to take the blame for this - have thrown at it. But it amazes how not one soul who was involved in this project, never gave an iota of a thought on streamlining the production of this platform.

We deserve one of the either foreign platforms. That is what we deserve for our lack of foresight.

[brar_w]

While there is not a single flying variant of the F-16 Block 70

I'm yet to identify a technology or capability on offer with the block-70/72/V that hasn't been flying since late 2015 on the ED#702 or that won't take to the air in an operational context when Aerospace Industrial Development Corporation delivers its first upgraded F-16V soon (the first aircraft went into the upgrade process mid January this year) back to the operational squadron. There may be alternative configurations for some of the mission systems such as Electronic Warfare packages but all those are operational already.

[Rakesh]

Amen. Thanks Brar.

[nirav]

Rakesh Saar,
Have you gone through the whole cag report of 2015 on LCA ?

[Cain Marko]

The problem with the lca is long development cycles combined with long times in scaling up production. People can blame the services all they want but bottom line is that India since a long time has faced a existential and ever present threat from two powerful neighbors. be it numbers or quality India constantly has to keep up, and that is a difficult position to be in. At the same time no point blaming the designers either.... It is damn difficult task they have been given. Little choice but to import under these circumstances. It's a nasty catch 22....keep importing for short term priorities, which means less importance and funds for desi R&D, and consequently more imports in the longer run.

However, This will change as India becomes more powerful economically and extensive funding for indigenous programs becomes easily available but priority in this situation will always be given to operational needs and that has meant imports.

The situation becomes a lot more complicated with vested interests being involved at the highest levels. I think Namo is going in the right direction but they will need at least another import or two for each of the services, especially the IAF+IN which require very niche technologies to maintain a decent capability before the hardware becomes e entirely desi.

[srai]

^^^
CM, +1. You have effectively summarized all the discussions in various threads for the last few weeks

[Philip]

..another import of two,but please,if ultimately found to be abso necessary,not "back to the future" with the aging F-16! Whatever "Block no." might be added to the F-16,it represents the final gasp of a fighter,respected in its heyday during the 20th century.It offers nothing for the 21st.

[Cain Marko]

^^^
CM, +1. You have effectively summarized all the discussions in various threads for the last few weeks

and we shall restart said discussions in full earnest once another juicy tid bit comes along...

[Cain Marko]

..another import of two,but please,if ultimately found to be abso necessary,not "back to the future" with the aging F-16! Whatever "Block no." might be added to the F-16,it represents the final gasp of a fighter,respected in its heyday during the 20th century.It offers nothing for the 21st.

Tbh comrade philipov, the gripen ain't all that futuristic.

[brar_w]

Tbh comrade philipov, the gripen ain't all that futuristic.

There are brand new MiG-35s to consider as well

[chola]

The problem with the lca is long development cycles combined with long times in scaling up production. People can blame the services all they want but bottom line is that India since a long time has faced a existential and ever present threat from two powerful neighbors. be it numbers or quality India constantly has to keep up, and that is a difficult position to be in.

Which two "powerful" neighbors? The failed state who already lost three wars against us? The commie cum trading SYRE one who hasn't fought a war in four decades and who because of geography and geo-politics is massively INFERIOR in both numbers and equipment along our border?

Certainly not any two of the following: Burma, BeedeeLand or Nepal.

No, we stand aside our region like a Colossus among insects. But we act like a bunch of dhoti shivering idijits screaming we need the "best on the phoren market" here and now because we are under "existential threat."

No, we don't, we have time to build our own maal. We are not surround by great powers like Europe or NE Asia where every other nation is a Germany or France or a Japan or S Korea. We are surrounded by little shits which for some unfathomable reason we are chicken of.

We need to go to war with Cheen to end this kind of mentality once and for all.

[Rakesh]

Chola, with what?

[Cain Marko]

Chola, Brave and bold words, as befits your moniker..... But a number of us, perhaps less brave folks would argue that it is exactly the opposite. Neither Japan not Germany are sitting on a stock of nukes with capable delivery systems nor are they giants with massive resource bases ala China. Not are they suicidal maniacs who's only reason to exist is to attack their neighbors. Not are they tyrannies that have little regret in driving their people em masse into the jaws of death....

No sir, upon deeper reflection you will realize that the above factors makes India's position rather unique. I would gladly take any of those dangerous countries that you mention as my neighbors over the two I have.

[chola]

Chola, with what?

With what we have now. In our theater, they have even less.

FAR less.

Think 24 measly J-10s and J-11s in all of Tibet. And even those will take off with lift penalties in the Tibetan Plateau's altitude.

[Cain Marko]

Chola, with what?

Brave, bold words Saar..... Real painful that sh1t, will totally decimate the enemy

[chola]

Chola, Brave and bold words, as befits your moniker..... But a number of us, perhaps less brave folks would argue that it is exactly the opposite. Neither Japan not Germany are sitting on a stock of nukes with capable delivery systems nor are they giants with massive resource bases ala China. Not are they suicidal maniacs who's only reason to exist is to attack their neighbors. Not are they tyrannies that have little regret in driving their people em masse into the jaws of death....

No sir, upon deeper reflection you will realize that the above factors makes India's position rather unique. I would gladly take any of those dangerous countries that you mention as my neighbors over the two I have.

The Cholas were a trade and cultural power even more than a military one to start off with, CM

But the first part of my answer is we have nooks too. In a nuclear standoff where MAD is in place, you have even more time to develop local maal. Buying phoren aircraft doesn't change the nook equation so why not take time to develop in house?

Pakistan is nothing more than a damn terrorist organization. It has no greater impact on India than ISIS has on the US. They are not an existential threat outside of going nuclear and again how does buying phiren maal help here? Three wars have proven they are shit as a military.

When was the last time Cheen ordered human waves on someone? 1979? Before the one-child policy took effect? If they were able and good at this then they would be doing this every decade at least no? Nope, they haven't fought a war in nearly fifty years and we need to dhoti shiver at that? Cheen's ability and will to fight grew inversely with its rise in the GDP. A trading trade far more in war.

In fact, there is no good reason for us to feel we are beset by any "powerful" enemies. Just a bloodsucking insect in Pakistan and an overbuilt fat bully in Cheen.

But as I wrote before, the danger with Cheen is in the nature of its true power as a trading/manufacturing state. The danger lies in NOT fighting and allowing Cheen to build and build in peace until we are locked in a sea of chini infrastructure and "stuff."

[Rakesh]

Chola, with what?

With what we have now. In our theater, they have even less.

FAR less.

Think 24 measly J-10s and J-11s in all of Tibet. And even those will take off with lift penalties in the Tibetan Plateau's altitude.

How much Methylenedioxymethamphetamine a.k.a. MDMA/Ecstasy did you take?

[chola]

With what we have now. In our theater, they have even less.

FAR less.

Think 24 measly J-10s and J-11s in all of Tibet. And even those will take off with lift penalties in the Tibetan Plateau's altitude.

How much Methylenedioxymethamphetamine a.k.a. MDMA/Ecstasy did you take?

Dude, I haven't take that stuff since college!

http://thediplomat.com/2017/07/chinas-c ... -of-india/

As far as airpower is concerned, besides the six fully operational dual-use airbases facing India at Lhasa Gonggar, Nyingchi, Qamdo, Hoping, Ngari Gunsa, and Shigatse, PLAAF has built another nine for its use in TAR. TAR also has some 27 additional airstrips that the PLAAF can utilize. Unlike in the past, the PLAAF now operates year-round from TAR, with reportedly some 24 combat aircraft, a mix of J-10s and J-11s, being based there on a near-permanent basis with other frontline combat aircraft being deployed to airfields in the region as detachments for durations of up to three months.

. . .

the IAF, with 31 airfields (nine in the western and 22 in the eastern sector) located much closer to the LAC, has an edge over the PLAAF in any air war over Tibet. IAF aircraft, with their bases in the plains, will be able to take off without any payload penalties and will require considerably less fuel to reach their targets.

Six chini airbases handicapped by high altitude vs at least 31 Indian bases, 24 PLAAF fighters vs hundreds of IAF aircraft and I'm the one on drugs!?

[Rakesh]

Apparently it has not worn off yet

Did you mix that with Ketamine? Or you are puffing the magic dragon?

[Cain Marko]

If there is a face off in short term, there will be hell to pay if services are bare and nekkid. It is a risk to just wait for local industry to deliver and you know it....btw how hard would it be for cheen to reinforce tar region with more hardware when infrastructure allows it and considering their manufacturing capabilities? Further, Say cheen and tsp together make a grab in kashmir, how do you respond conventionally? What if tsp allows plaaf fighters basing rights, will the Chinese still be hampered by geography?

While the possibility of war is always remote, who wants to chance it? Who predicted kargil? 62? War is always a remote possibility, but it is the services that have to fight it, and it is ridiculous and perverse to expect them to do so unequipped every single time. First order of duty with an improving economy is to ensure immediate state security and if this means short term phoren maal, that can't be helped.

Again, it's not that concerned parties are not pushing Desi hardware, the order for tejas stands with a massive sanction of funds. I'm sure more will come as the fighter matures. As the ACM has said on record, "we'll take it as fast as you can deliver.”

[Akshay Kapoor]

Apparently it has not worn off yet

Did you mix that with Ketamine? Or you are puffing the magic dragon?

Good stuff this. I also want some. Makes magic happen PLAAF Reduced to 24 a/c etc.

Probably doesn't realise that if war happens it's with People's Republic of China not with your local chinese food vendor.

[chola]

Apparently it has not worn off yet

Did you mix that with Ketamine? Or you are puffing the magic dragon?

Good stuff this. I also want some. Makes magic happen PLAAF Reduced to 24 a/c etc.

Probably doesn't realise that if war happens it's with People's Republic of China not with your local chinese food vendor.

Just read my link from "The Diplomat" before quaking under your lunghi needlessly!

[Rakesh]

chola: There is a fine line between bravado and foolhardiness. You Sir, have gone way past that line and are now firmly residing in the territory of Detached From Reality more commonly known as CRAZY.

Two-and-a-half wars? The Indian Air Force doesn’t have the squadron strength to fight even one
https://scroll.in/article/842527/bullet ... f-tomorrow

In a conflict against China, in our current state, India WILL NOT prevail.

Akshay Saar: Please read the bit about the Indian Navy in there. Same point I was making.

[chola]

chola: There is a fine line between bravado and foolhardiness. You Sir, have gone way past that line and are now firmly residing in the territory of Detached From Reality more commonly known as CRAZY.

Two-and-a-half wars? The Indian Air Force doesn’t have the squadron strength to fight even one
https://scroll.in/article/842527/bullet ... f-tomorrow

In a conflict against China, in our current state, India WILL NOT prevail.

Akshay Saar: Please read the bit about the Indian Navy in there. Same point I was making.

It is not "bravado" it is taking careful study of the geogroaphical and geo-political lay of the land.

And bravado is the last thing I would characterize my views of Cheen. Ask me how I feel about our chances if we DON'T fight given the PRC's economic and industrial advantages.

A naval war with cheen would be the most winnable war scenario possible actually. They depend on the trade routes going through waters passing by our nation. We every advantage here. Our greatest hope should be for a naval war to shut off trade to the most trade dependent power.

There is nothing "crazy" about my views.

[Cosmo_R]

Tbh comrade philipov, the gripen ain't all that futuristic.

There are brand new MiG-35s to consider as well

They have been superseded by the MiG 45. Did you not know?

[srai]

chola: There is a fine line between bravado and foolhardiness. You Sir, have gone way past that line and are now firmly residing in the territory of Detached From Reality more commonly known as CRAZY.

Two-and-a-half wars? The Indian Air Force doesn’t have the squadron strength to fight even one
https://scroll.in/article/842527/bullet ... f-tomorrow

In a conflict against China, in our current state, India WILL NOT prevail.

Akshay Saar: Please read the bit about the Indian Navy in there. Same point I was making.

Indian war preparedness needs to be looked in a more wholistic manner. For a given defense budget of 1.7% of GDP (or $40 billion or so), what are all the critical needs for all three services that need to be addressed? Every service has a really long and expensive acquisition list. Plus, they also have huge ongoing revenue expenses. The IA gets 50% of the budget and yet 80% of its allocation goes into paying payroll type of expenses. New MSC and additional MD being raised (with some reports indicating as high as 90,000 additional troops) compounds this issue further.

People talk of sudden war literally tomorrow; ok what can be done right away vs something that's 5-10 years away? If any lesson is to be learnt, how much time got wasted with the previous MMRCA that ended up with just 36 aircraft for $8 billion? After 15-years, money wasn't there for desired quantities and local production etc. It was unrealistic from the start. There was also no Plan B.

During Kargil, it was the IN that put on a chokehold on Pakistan effectively reducing its fuel reserves to 2-weeks worth. Similarly any future war with China or Pakistan also need to be looked at what each service can bring to the table. Sure if like in 1962 only the IA fights the Chinese then India will come out on the losing side. The IN needs to be involved and act as a deterrent to supplies in the IOR for any Chinese misadventure in the Himalayas.

[Cain Marko]

There are brand new MiG-35s to consider as well

They have been superseded by the MiG 45. Did you not know?

Nah just the 1.44, and what a breast that was..... In a for old fancy I do wish we had taken full rights of production on it instead of the mki....

[Philip]

The fundamental problem confrointing the IAF is how best to augment numbers,aiming for the "45 sqd" holy grail,I would even up the number to at least 50 sqds,and what the composition of that sqd. fig. should be ,at the most affordable cost ,in the shortest span of time.

First,let's look at our current capabilities in production.

1: SU-30MKis at Nasik. Final fig. as of now expected to be 272 + 40. The 40 some reports suggest,may be outright buys from Ru,since MKI prod, has reached its peak of about 12-16/yr. That is actually not bad for just one prod. facility,where approx. indigenisation using local raw materials is "70%".If need be,more aircraft can be built locally. As an aside,why the IAF do not consider the single-seat SU-35 as a worthy acquisition,one doesn't know,as it would cut by half the lifetime cost of pilots,their training,family accommodation,etc.

2.MIG-29 UGs, A small batch was initially upgraded in Ru,but subsequently all the rest,60+,were upgraded locally at a total cost of just under $1B.A total of 67 aircraft,all upgraded by HAL at Ojhar IAF base. We are also planning to acquire Malaysian 22yr old MIG-29Ns,in a barter deal supplying them with SU-30 spares in exchange for the aircraft.

The mig-29 upgrade includes ZHUK-ME AESA radar, RD-33 series 3 turbofan engine, IFR probe, an advanced weapon control system and avionics. The UPG upgrades will cost India $13 Million, and a new Mig-29 can cost up to $22 million dollars. Indian is cleverly saving $9 Million dollars on each aircraft. After the upgrade, the aircraft will have more strengths.

Therefore,acquiring extra MIG-29UG or even MIG-35s and building them in India should not be a major problem,since the efforts to do so have already been established here.Koraput was also supposed to build over 120 Klimov RD-=33 engines for the same as part of the upgrade deal.

3.M2K:The upgrade of 50+ M@K aircraft is being done at home,but at horrendous cost,$2.5B for just 50 aircraft ($50M an upgrade cost compared to just $13M for a MIG-29!). Therefore,tt is most unlikely that the IAF will acquire secondhand M2Ks and upgrade them at a cost approximating $70M,when second hand MIG-29s plus upgrade costs are in the region of just $22M.In effect,one could acquire 3 upgraded MIG-29s for the price of just one M2K UG.

The low cost of a new MI-29,or even a MIG-35,makes acquiring and building the same locally an attractive proposition esp. from the cost factor.However,the IAF appears to want "continental food or US fast food" for a change in diet1 Hence the SE tender.

4.Jaguars SEPECAT jags have been built in large numbers since the '80s.The Darin-3 variant has flown and all 120+ Jags are supposed to get upgraded using the Honywell package of new engine,etc.,which should've benen completed by 2020,but there has been little info about upgrade progress thus far. New-built upgraded Jags should not cost any more than a new LCA,in the $25-30M range and would be very useful in replacing legacy MIG_27s due to be phased out by 2020. Upgrades,yes,new aircratf a long shot though.

5.Tejas/LCA: The N...er in the woodpile,so to speak.There's a whole td. on this subject,no need for repetition however brief here,except to say that some drastic measures need to be taken if the decades and cost of the programme,spent by the taxpayer does not end up in the gutter.If the second line is pushed ,(nothing seems to be happening becos vested interests seem very anxious to seal the deal for the F-16 first),several combinations of the above could be used to acquire 120-200 aircraft "in-house" without extra infrastructure and costs in setting up a new firang line for an aged (once beautiful) crone.