Artillery Discussion Thread

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abhik
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

RajitO wrote:
abhik wrote: The people who are peddling the M777.
Fantastic, so you could probably provide a link to the relevant brochure, presentation, or other link where the peddlers talk about air being the "primary" means of movement.
The M777 is an ultra light howitzer, its raison d'etre in the Indian context is air transportability. It you are saying that all the mountain divisions be equipped with M777s then you are suggesting that they are also going to primarily be air deployment/supply.
abhik wrote:THose M777s and helicopters aren't gonna come in a click of a finger either.
Strawman #1. The point raised was which will come earlier, the roads or the M777+Chinooks?
And you have a crystal ball which has told you that the M777+Chinooks will come quicker?
The Army has lugged Bofors upto the Nathu La area, but if given a choice they would like something lighter, especially if the strike corps job is to move
Ok lets try again. Does the M777 being lighter mean automatically mean you can put it where ever you want on whim? You either have to transport it by road or by air. On the road the M777 has hardly any advantage over conventional towed artillery. To transport it by air in any significant scale you need a large number of heavy lift helicopters which we neither have nor plan to buy in the future.
abhik wrote:Can you calculate the actual air assets(number of helicopters etc.) required to make the full MSC air mobile? The American 101st airborne, 1st Cav air assault etc can be used for reference.
Strawman #2. Which poster has talked about making a full MSC air mobile? Or were you referring to the peddlers?

Let me guess...if someone posts tomorrow saying we should increase our defence budget to meet the threat from China, does it automatically mean take it to a $100 billion dollars plus?
A poster whom I have quoted in the post has suggested exactly that. Feel free to go through the post again.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_23455 »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
abhik wrote:It you are saying that all the mountain divisions be equipped with M777s then you are suggesting that they are also going to primarily be air deployment/supply.
If I was saying it I would have said so in chapter and verse. This is the problem with making unfounded assumptions and inferences.
abhik wrote:And you have a crystal ball which has told you that the M777+Chinooks will come quicker?
It's called experience but if you want to call it whatever, fine by me. Let's check in 3-4 years whether the road projects stalled for the last 10 years will get miraculously accelerated. On the other hand the US has a track record of delivering C-130s, C-17s, P-8Is all on time.
abhik wrote:On the road the M777 has hardly any advantage over conventional towed artillery. To transport it by air in any significant scale you need a large number of heavy lift helicopters which we neither have nor plan to buy in the future.
So it's you who has the crystal ball then?
abhik wrote:A poster whom I have quoted in the post has suggested exactly that. Feel free to go through the post again.
Did...found no trace of it. Looks like another phantom assumption/inference.
Sagar G
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Sagar G »

pankajs wrote:Phorren TFTA gun, M777 in this case, have been in production for the last 7 years where as the DRDO gun is still in the labs per DRDO.
In case you didn't notice phorren TFTA gun has been production in phorren land onlee and how come foreign ULH == DRDO indigenous effort ??? IA hasn't asked for a ULH from DRDO.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pankajs »

Correct onlee ..

No DRDO gun till date .. no ULH spec. framed till date .. so no possibility of a DRDO ULH within a reasonable time frame (lets say 5 years)

Question is who's fault is the current situation .. all folks GOI/MOD/DRDO/DPSU/IA share the blame .. my take onlee

Next question is what to do on the border with China .. things have been getting hot lately and are expected to heat up further. Well all folks GOI/MOD/DRDO/DPSU/IA agree that import is the best option for now .. Are there any other option in the short-term (5 yrs)?

Even if we ditch M777 and root for the TOT based Bofors .. where is the Gun? I am assuming that the DRDO chief was talking of a DRDO-OFB gun, it is the one based on the Bofors TOT.
Last edited by pankajs on 15 Sep 2013 15:24, edited 1 time in total.
Sagar G
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Sagar G »

pankajs wrote:Correct onlee ..

No DRDO gun till date .. no ULH spec. framed till date .. so no possibility of a DRDO ULH within a reasonable time frame (lets say 5 years)

Question is who's fault is the current situation .. all folks GOI/MOD/DRDO/DPSU/IA share the blame .. my take onlee
Given Indian procurement drama there can well be no ULH procured for the next 5 yrs and current situation is solely IA/MoD fault, waited two decades plus to ask (not sure whether any QR has been issued) DRDO to make a gun and the OFB one was also taken up by OFB itself and only when MoD assented they are now working on it.
pankajs wrote:Next question is what to do on the border with China .. things have been getting hot lately and are expected to heat up further. Well all folks GOI/MOD/DRDO/DPSU/IA agree that import is the best option for now .. Are there any other option in the short-term (5 yrs)?

Even if we ditch M777 and root for the TOT based Bofors .. where is the Gun?
DRDO's hasn't released any statement regarding ULH deal and DPSU's have no say at all and when the IA has decided to buy ULH then where does the OFB/DRDO gun come into picture ??? The OFB/DRDO gun is for different requirement and the ULH is for different.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pankajs »

Sagar G wrote:
pankajs wrote:<snip>Even if we ditch M777 and root for the TOT based Bofors .. where is the Gun?
<snip>when the IA has decided to buy ULH then where does the OFB/DRDO gun come into picture ??? The OFB/DRDO gun is for different requirement and the ULH is for different.
If you read my original post, it was posted just after some folks seemed to suggest that the conventional or normal guns would do the job perfectly fine and thus M777 was not needed. The above question should be seen in that context.

I was under the impression that before all imports are approved DRDO's inputs on DRDO/Desi capability in the specific area is sought.
Last edited by pankajs on 15 Sep 2013 16:54, edited 1 time in total.
vishvak
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vishvak »

If OFB/DRDO could do the job well, why not put the guns in place already where these are needed.

Plus M777 amriki gun should be checked well for warfare. Direct FMS route and no competition may not be perfect here.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Sagar G »

pankajs wrote:If you read my original post, it was posted just after some folks seemed to suggest that the conventional or normal guns would do the job perfectly fine and thus M777 was not needed. The above question should be seen in that context.
M777 has definitely it's advantage but what baggage will it bring is not known, well topic for some other thread.

At this point of time we don't have an indigenous product equalling M777 since the IA or MoD never projected a requirement for ULH to DRDO or even an artillery gun for that sake. Even if asked for today it will take at least a decade for an indigenous ULH to come into production.
pankajs wrote:I was under the impression that before all imports are approved DRDO's inputs on DRDO/Desi capability in the specific area is sought.
Yes it is but when desi capability was intently not built in the first place what can DRDO do in such a situation other than to nod ???
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pragnya »

pankajs wrote:where is the Gun? I am assuming that the DRDO chief was talking of a DRDO-OFB gun, it is the one based on the Bofors TOT.
your assumption is wrong.

OFB effort is based on bofors drawings and is an inhouse effort. at IA's request they have built prototypes of 2 versions - 1. same 39cal as the old one but upgraded. 2. a 45cal version which is a reengineered version. both are being tested.

DRDO version is ARDE led with pvt support. this is 155mm/52 cal version and DRDO head says prototypes would be ready in 3 years. also note they have outsourced the barrel to the pvt sector to involve them and speed up.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pankajs »

While you may be right .. but this is what the DRDO chief recently had to say on this

We should work towards a defence industry that exports: Avinash Chander
One such area is the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, with unmanned systems developed in parallel. Another is artillery, where we need to develop our own gun design. We are developing that with a new partnership model: an Ordnance Factory-industry-DRDO partnership.

Tell us more about this.

Industry is developing the capability to manufacture a barrel. The DRDO's Armament R&D Establishment (ARDE) is designing electromechanical systems, better recoil capabilities, and a totally automated gun with higher rates of fire. We have set a timeline - the prototypes will be ready within three years.
So in this partnership between OFB-Industry-DRDO, what does the OFB contribute? Has not been specified .. so my assumption was of course the Bofors TOT.

Another question that must be asked is how many Atry R&D is the OFB involved in? My assumption is only one .. this one that the DRDO chief talks about. Given the penny pinching nature of the MoD babus do you think they will sanction 2 parallel R&D efforts that too involving the same entity?

I have been wrong before .. may be wrong again.
Last edited by pankajs on 15 Sep 2013 19:11, edited 1 time in total.
abhik
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

vishvak wrote:Plus M777 amriki gun should be checked well for warfare. Direct FMS route and no competition may not be perfect here.
There was to be a competition which would have pitted the ST Kinetics Pegasus against the M777. The M777 was being offered in partnership Mahindra with IIRC total production in India along with subcontracts to BEL and OFBs too. But then the Saint blacklisted STK and this became a FMS deal with direct import. Also if you will remember IA conducted trials on the M777 where it had failed on most of the parameters including Air Portability on which it was tested. So it definitely didn't match their original expectations, it didn't turn out to be what they thought it to be(?). To quote:-
In the Air Portability Trials, the BAE gun scored a zero on transportability by air. Transport by cargo, Para dropping the gun and a Heli Transport in a slung mode all showed up a 'Fail'.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pragnya »

pankajs wrote:So in this partnership between OFB-Industry-DRDO, what does the OFB contribute? Has not been specified .. so my assumption was of course the Bofors TOT.
OFB might be the production agency though i would prefer somebody like Bharat Forge/Kalyani group doing it. infact Kalyani wanted to be part of it while parallely developing their own gun!!
Another question that must be asked is how many Atry efforts is the OFB involved in? My assumption is only one .. this one that the DRDO chief talks about. Given the penny pinching nature of the MoD babus do you think they will sanction 2 parallel efforts that too involving the same entity?

I have been wrong before .. may be wrong again.
read the above link. :wink:
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Sagar G »

pankajs wrote:Another question that must be asked is how many Atry R&D is the OFB involved in? My assumption is only one .. this one that the DRDO chief talks about. Given the penny pinching nature of the MoD babus do you think they will sanction 2 parallel R&D efforts that too involving the same entity?
The OFB is working on a 45 cal gun of which the tests were held and one of the proto was damaged for which investigation is going on (link is in previous page). DRDO is right now working on 52 cal gun so when Chander says it's a partnership for a new gun then it's for 52 cal one maybe DRDO is also providing support to OFB for the 45 cal version but nothing is on record about that. So yes there are two programs ongoing not one.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Sagar G »

pragnya wrote:OFB might be the production agency though i would prefer somebody like Bharat Forge/Kalyani group doing it. infact Kalyani wanted to be part of it while parallely developing their own gun!!
I don't think that the entire order will go to OFB unless MoD decides to play spoilsport, most probably OFB will get a part of the order and so will the pvt. industry. The no.'s required are huge.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_23455 »

vishvak wrote:If OFB/DRDO could do the job well, why not put the guns in place already where these are needed.

Plus M777 amriki gun should be checked well for warfare. Direct FMS route and no competition may not be perfect here.
The M777 has been used in both Iraq and Afghanistan for years now. If you feel like Googling there are enough forums out there where people who have actually used the M777 in combat have given their inputs - both pros and cons on the system, rather than armchair gunners with blinkered agendas...
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Sagar G »

abhik wrote:
In the Air Portability Trials, the BAE gun scored a zero on transportability by air. Transport by cargo, Para dropping the gun and a Heli Transport in a slung mode all showed up a 'Fail'.
Is the entire report available ??? If the gun has failed in previous trials then how come it is being ordered ???
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pragnya »

Sagar G wrote:
pragnya wrote:OFB might be the production agency though i would prefer somebody like Bharat Forge/Kalyani group doing it. infact Kalyani wanted to be part of it while parallely developing their own gun!!
I don't think that the entire order will go to OFB unless MoD decides to play spoilsport, most probably OFB will get a part of the order and so will the pvt. industry. The no.'s required are huge.
as i said i wish this goes to the pvt sector for the production. however this remains to be seen. on the part of DRDO - they are not happy with QC/managerial issues with DPSUs incl OFB and have made their stand known and want a say in the prod control - as it affects their own hard work. it can be seen over many of their programmes they have been encouraging pvt sector to be part of their efforts incl this 155/52cal artillery for which they are letting the pvt sector to design the barrel. this is good in the long term as it allows the pvt sector to get a foot hold and improve and speed up the programme as well.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

Sagar G wrote:
In the Air Portability Trials, the BAE gun scored a zero on transportability by air. Transport by cargo, Para dropping the gun and a Heli Transport in a slung mode all showed up a 'Fail'.
Is the entire report available ??? If the gun has failed in previous trials then how come it is being ordered ???
Don't know about the entire report but it's authenticity was never denied. They then relaxed the requirements to fit what the gun could actually achieve so that they could buy it. Of course one could argue that this would happen sometimes if the standards are set to high. But one cannot disregard the fact that this was a niche equipment being bought to play a very specific role. It failing in trials on parameters defined for that role could imply that the whole thing is not workable. We thought of using it in a certain way, after trials we find it just won't work out. No absolute need to buy it. Just stick to conventional guns.
As far as why we are still buying it, fwiw me thinks its a scam.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

This whole debate on M-777 and MSC has been so corrupted with inane comments and stupid arguments that it seems all sanity has been lost.

Final try to drill some sense into the heads of keyboard ninjas here:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The main counter-argument put forth against purchase of M-777 type of weapon and its USP of heliport-ability is that it is a silver bullet and roads are the answer to army’s problem. And if you can develop a proper road, than it means you can lug around a 45/52 caliber 155 guns as well.

Another argument has been about the definition of air-mobility – Are we talking about Indian version of 101 Air Assault Division? And do we have resources and what is the use? This actually flows from the above argument about roads and helicopters and mountain warfare.

(A) Mountain Artillery – Before we delve into the issue about roads and helicopters let me digress a bit and talk about Mountain Artillery. Any student of history of Indian Army would have heard about the famous five Mountain Artillery Batteries of British Indian Army. These were retained with their Indian crew even as Artillery was made out of bounds for natives after 1857.

Link to introduction on Mountain Artillery Batteries of BIA: http://wegunners.webs.com/mountainartillery.htm

In independent India, Mountain Artillery guns continued to be used in Indian Army. The Mountain Artillery guns could be broken down into sub-parts and were carried on Mountain Artillery Mules – which are superior to General Duty Mules. In emergency, these guns were even carried on man-pack basis.

The important point to note is that Mountain Artillery battalions had the mobility required to keep pace with the infantry and operations in the mountains. They had the required elevation for mountains and provided the fire-support to infantry. We fought the 1947-48 and 1962 wars in mountains with these guns.

Check an image here:

http://centreright.in/wp-content/upload ... r-1962.jpg

But in due course of time, the artillery guns were found to be inadequate in terms of range and weight of projectile and were discontinued. Lighter version of Indian Field Gun - called LFG – has been the main stay of the mountain divisions for quite some time now. I am willing to be corrected but I don’t think we have any artillery system which can be transported on mules across the mountains.

(B) Deployment in mountains –the challenges.

Let me elaborate this point and problem using some terrain maps from Bum-La area north of Tawang and on LAC:

Image

Image

If you look at the maps, the following issues about deployment of artillery come immediately to mind:

(a) The valleys are very narrow and the gun positions will have to be on either side of the roads connecting forwards and rear areas. The depth available on either side will again be limited. We saw in Kargil the gun pits on either side of NH-1A and in adjoin valleys.

(b) The general valley orientation is in north-south direction so no reverse slope protection as one saw in Kargil where the firing was in east-west direction across the mountain ridges. The arty boys will have to be imaginative in deploying their guns.

(c) Further, the gradient of the mountain ranges means that guns in reverse slope position will have to fire at close to max angles – thereby negating the ability to exploit range in full.

In my opinion, the artillery will be deployed to provide support to own defenses, target enemy defenses in forward areas and depth as well as the main communication axis supporting the enemy formation(s) to interdict the movement of men and supplies.
Now, how deep will be the arty battery sited from LAC to perform the required role? In the map above, the same is assumed to be sited ~6 km in depth from LAC. And that the gun has 35 km range.

Image

From the above picture, it might seem that a gun with 35 km range will be able to cover targets in depth – but there are some challenges:

Maximum range is assuming it gets open space to fire at 45 degree angle to exploit the full range. Given the slopes and gradient of the mountain ranges, the gun will perforce have to fire at high angles of elevation.

Also, the position of enemy troops on reverse side will mean that shell will have to approach the target at high angles.

As per one document that I read, the artillery of an armored/mechanized division can provide fire cover for 50 km depth and 60 km arc. In plains, a similar coverage area would be restricted due to nature of terrain and penalty on effectiveness it places.

One thing that becomes evidently clear from the above map is the disadvantage which IA faces in mountains with 105mm LFG – which has a theoretical range of 17 km. All the above factors further reduce the effectiveness of this gun and it needs to be sited that much closer to the LAC. And it simply cannot touch targets in depth or interfere with enemy movements. And highlight why we need a new gun ASAP.

(C) Movement in mountains - Now imagine a situation on western border in Rajasthan or Punjab. An artillery regiment arrives by train and is offloaded at the nearest rail-head to international border. From there on, it travels by road with guns pulled by Field Artillery Tractors (FAT) of the guns. But the road leads up till what point? IB? Or some kilometers short of IB? Well, never-mind because in either case, the FAT can simply pull through pre-reconnoitered road to its firing position – You see the land is plain and the FATs can pull in any direction required. Further, when main body of troops pushes into enemy territory, the FATs will simply pull the guns behind them. Simple, no?

Now, what happens if the same battery was moving from Tawang to LAC? Let us assume that an all-weather two lane roads exists to Tawang from the Brahmaputra plains and from roads going from it to LAC are also similar. This will allow moving even 52 Cal guns from plains to Tawang and further to areas before LAC. But, what then?

In the previous section we saw the likely deployment and coverage of a 155/52 gun battery. The guns are deployed in pre-defined locations. But what about the movement of guns from this location? Given the geographical restraints and the weight + size of the gun, the movement of gun is restricted to areas where good and big roads are located. And these locations are going to come under fire.

Further, how far into enemy territory can own forces go while still within the cover of support fire? In our example, the battery is already 6km from the LAC – and it cannot move any further. So, for every one kilometer own troops move into enemy territory, they move one km out of support fire. And since no roads connect Indian side with Tibet, Indian artillery simply cannot move into the enemy territory. That is the crux of the matter.

Look at the map below – now imagine, if the gun needs to be moved into enemy territory (10 kms in the map) where no road connectivity exists or Indian Territory not connected by a suitable road, how does one move an 11 ton gun? If required, the IFG can be heli-lifted to the required location or even para-dropped. But can one do the same with a full-fledged arty gun? The answer is simply no.

Image

And this is where a gun like M-777 comes handy – it heli-operation part is given but more importantly, the road aspect is also there. Not all your roads can take a 10 ton load.

(D) MSC and Air-Mobility – So, the MSC is not going to be a replica of US Army 101 Air Assault Division or 82nd Airborne. It will have organic capability for vertical airlift and suitable support equipment. And M-777 is such equipment along with helicopters required to move them.

Coming to quantum of helicopters required, that depends on the planned airlift capability. Sometime back I had written about IA plans to introduce graded capacity for vertical lift starting from Corps level. Each Corps is to have capability to airlift a Company of troops and the planned Aviation Brigades at Corps level should be able to accomplish that. Similarly, Command HQ should be able to airlift a Battalion with Brigade level capability at AHQ level.

With the level of resources committed to MSC, it is quite possible at each Division may be able to airlift a Battalion at a time and sustain a Brigade level formation through helicopter led air-maintenance. So, let us not get into the territory of comparing ourselves with US Army and other fancy stuff. A MSC may have 1 x Chinook Squadron for heavy lift of troops and M-777 guns.

(E) M-777 required – I had earlier advised against using the simple No of Divisions x Brigade x Regiments to arrive at the final number. 145 guns are enough only for eight regiments. That will not even equip two full brigades. IMO, the final number required will be based on two factors:

a. Kind of mobility planned for MSC

b.Advantage of M-777 over IFG (105mm) in terms of weight and range trade-off.

Point A will determine number of guns required from air-mobility perspective. IA may decide to have 2x M-777 Regiments per Division of the MSC (assuming three divisions) for taking care of such cross border movement requirements.

Point B will decide the larger induction number in IA – it is obvious that LFG is simply outgunned and outranged in the mountains. If the IA is looking at IFG kind of footprint with some weight penalty, then M-777 can enter into wider service. It might simply not be feasibile to build roads everywhere to accomodare a heavier 45/52 Cal gun across the eastern border.
Last edited by rohitvats on 16 Sep 2013 01:53, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

The M777 are all parts Titanium alloy? I thought only the trail and fittings are Ti.

Investment casting Ti Alloys is not easy. Looks like they still weld some of the parts.

Welding Ti is also quite difficulty.

Ti alloys are low weight, high strength and has high fracture toughness.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

ramana wrote:The M777 are all parts Titanium alloy? I thought only the trail and fittings are Ti.

Investment casting Ti Alloys is not easy. Looks like they still weld some of the parts.

Welding Ti is also quite difficulty.

Ti alloys are low weight, high strength and has high fracture toughness.
Please check my post on previous page.

Have linked technical details of what was attempted and achieved. You'll be able to understand the technical language better.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Victor »

Rohit, thanks for taking the trouble to lay it out so thoroughly. If IA sees the need for more ULH, I am sure that we will be allowed to make them in India.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

agupta, Also 3D solid modeling CAD was also a factor for one cant visualize the intricate shapes for parts count reduction.

BTW the Kerala Ti plant has a sponge melt shop. I would like to know if its double melt or single melt ingot production unit.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_22906 »

Thanks RV for the excellent and well researched post. Hopefully some logic and common sense gets drilled into some people over here...

Though I wouldn't be surprised if you are accused of justifying your argument to support the "import loving lobby" :wink:
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pragnya »

ramana wrote:BTW the Kerala Ti plant has a sponge melt shop. I would like to know if its double melt or single melt ingot production unit.
may be you can decipher from the link here. there are 6 sub sections to it at the bottom.

KMML Manufacturing Facility
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vic »

Why the job of M777+ Chinooks cannot be done by:-

105mm LFG firing HEER rounds with enhanced range of 21km

Pinaka 40-60km range and Prahaar 120-200km range mounted on Lighter platforms with single launch tubes ????? Note they can remain way behind the front lines and within Indian side with supporting road network.

What will happen to?

Chinese Manpads and Air defence network when Helos are airlifting Howitzers in forward areas inside China?

M777 is 4.2 tons while non-automated Bofors will be 6-7 tons only. Anyway what about 20 to 200 tons of support equipment and ammo for each gun?

How will the price escalation and sanctions will be handled in the time of war?

Elephant in the room

Army wants to imports everything from Carbines, rifles, mortars etc, so the rationalization of each import is long and detailed but lacking in honesty
When did the army ask DRDO to start developing ULH and did DRDO fail?

Why did M777 refuse the trials mandated by the Army?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

vic wrote:<SNIP>
Army wants to imports everything from Carbines, rifles, mortars etc, so the rationalization of each import is long and detailed but lacking in honesty. When did the army ask DRDO to start developing ULH and did DRDO fail? Why did M777 refuse the trials mandated by the Army?
"Dukhi Atma" - for once, why don't you pen down a 'HONEST' account on why a 21 km round from 105mm gun will do the trick? All we have are these one liner goat droppings without any form or logic.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_23455 »

These are actually statements under the guise of questions that are rhetorical in nature, with a wide sweep that takes into account everything from the DPP to individual weapon characteristics,

One should respond in the same vein.

Why not use superior diplomacy to get our way without firing a single shot? Wasn't it Sun Tzu that said

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting"
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

The ultimate question ought to be is what are the advantages that the M 777 brings on the table that are not inherent in a FH77.

Assuming, that it can be air lifted across the battle field. What is the maximum altitude that it can be carried. Also what about the resupply of ammunition. How will it be supported on the battlefield. Will it be an air bridge of will the ammo be carried by trucks?

If one looks at the road transportability of guns. The M 777 has no real advantages. If one looks at the air transportability of the guns, then can the M 777 be airlifted with sufficient amount of ammunition in order to fight a sustained battle. And what would be the highest altitude where it can be airlifted with say 20, 40, 60, 80, rounds of 155 MM ammunition.

Is India ever going to have the airlift needed to make sure that the gun can be moved in sufficient in a high mountain battlefield to have a decisive impact on a modern battlefield. Another question, how will a gun em placed by a helo relocate it self, in order to avoid incoming counter battery fire from the PLA. Nearly immediately after it makes its presence know to the PLA.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_20453 »

http://www.employeepublications-baesyst ... ntage_1/12

I don't see how the M-777 failed in any form of transportability or direct fire tests, it is light enough to fit even in the An-32, IL-76, shouldn't be an issue to transport it on the Mi-26. Not sure if it was tried during the trials with the Mi-8 (could be because it weighs just a bit short of 4 ton or a bit over, can't seem to find accurate weight specs, possibly risky for lifting it with the Mi-8). As for barrel life, minimum range, not much can be said since not sure how high altitude affects range (i would assume, thinner air means less drag, the round should be able to travel long distances without any problems) and for reliability, the gun has been used in tough conditions in Afghan and Iraq.

To me the report of M-777 failing trails seems pretty much bogus. I would have come short in some areas but not enough to cancel purchase.

I am sure, our well trained topchees can learn this new gun with ease and crew of 5 can easily spit out 3 rounds a minutes with precision.

Sure hope DAC can take the decision before October and get the gun at older price, any delays will ensure hike in price and lead to closure of factory and our artillery saga would continue.

As for transportability, I know the IFG 105mm is also deployed at siachen and the gun is carried there by soldiers by foot in parts, so I am sure the M-777 can be deployed up there as well with Dhruv bringing in parts of the gun. The guns can then be assembeled. I think a over a 100 rounds per load. Dhruv can carry upto 600kg out to siachen. I think IA will certainly deploy this gun up there. A few guns will certainly keep PAk and China in check.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

A dated but excellent article on use of artillery in Himalayas - going by the narrative in the article, this was written before Kargil War.

http://babriet.tripod.com/articles/art_ ... rydoct.htm
A former major who served in the Indian artillery recounts India's experience of fire support operations in difficult terrain here. It is based on a paper presented at Jane's 21st Century Fire Support Conference.

The Indian Army's artillery has adopted a pivotal role in the country's military planning for future operations against its principal adversaries - Pakistan and China. Pakistan's acquisition of a nuclear weapons capability and ballistic missiles has forced Indian doctrinal thinking away from maneuver warfare.

Instead, it is now concerned with an ability to inflict heavy attrition in a war limited in time and space. A deep counter-offensive inside Pakistan is neither desirable nor achievable. As a result, India's primary military aim is to degrade as much of Pakistan's standing forces in as short a time as possible.

Against China, however, India has adopted a strategy of counter-attack only: to foil a Chinese offensive on a broad front. A limited counter-attack capability using air power and ballistic missiles (primarily in a deterrent role) is considered an adequate response to Chinese aggression.

Indian military plans are prepared around the necessity to wage what is effectively a war on 'one-and-a-half fronts': that is, to fight a full-fledged conflict with Pakistan in order to decimate its military prowess, and to hold China by means of limited counter-attacks and through diplomatic channels.

Although Pakistan and China are both nuclear weapon states, the nuclear factor is being excluded from this examination. Indian military thinking opines that contrary to its declared policy, Pakistan is unlikely to employ nuclear weapons unless its very existence as a state is threatened. To remove such an eventuality, or the possibility of its occurrence, Pakistan needs to maintain parity at a conventional operational level with India (which it presently enjoys). On the other hand, a Chinese threat of low-yield nuclear weapons usage on the Himalayan battlefield is real.

India's artillery, which includes ballistic missiles, is the only organic arm of the country's army that possesses an ability to switch between a general support role and close support of the tactical battle, and to move firepower from one front to another in acceptable time. In operational terms, the role of the artillery is being redefined from that of a combat support arm to a combat arm in its own right.

The Indian artillery operates in varied terrain that includes desert, glaciers, high altitude, jungle, mountainous, semi-mountainous, and plains. The thrust of this article will focus on the Himalayan battlefield that has a mix of jungle, mountainous, and high altitude terrain; and on the Siachen glacier.

The guiding philosophy of India's field artillery is to standardize the caliber of weapons in service, to seek ammunition compatibility with guns of the same caliber but of different regional origin, to give equal importance to both projectile and projector, and to utilize optimally the imminent induction of ballistic missiles.

This philosophy has been influenced by five considerations:

· The changes in potential targets inside Pakistan since linear defenses and supporting field works along the border with India are heavily reinforced with concrete fortifications. A successful engagement of hardened defenses is possible only with heavier caliber shells with high terminal velocities;

· The expansion of mechanized forces within the armies of India and Pakistan has underscored the need for large caliber artillery systems and higher rates of fire;

· A determination to reduce the logistics complexities of operating guns of 14 different caliber, through a program of rationalization;

· The development of better roads and tracks in India's mountains means that many mountain guns can be dispensed with, although some systems which can be transported by pack animals will be retained;

· Between India and Pakistan, an induction of ballistic missiles with conventional warheads will force a change of doctrines and affect basic principles of war (such as 'concentration of mass') which are essential for a 'break-out' of strike formations through the opponent's linear defenses. A fear of collateral damage without any accompanying territorial gains would limit the use of ballistic missiles. On the other hand, ballistic missiles such as the indigenous Prithvi missile are ideal for use on a Himalayan battlefield against China where there is little fear of collateral damage.

At present, the artillery has about 760 130mm M-46 field guns in 36 regiments (battalion-equivalent) and plans to have 60 regiments equipped by 2000. There are 410 Bofors 155mm FH-77B howitzers for general support and counter fire. In the plains, all regiments equipped with the 105mm Indian Field Gun are earmarked to convert to the M-46. The 105mm Light Field Gun regiments in the mountains will remain in place until 2010. A regiment each of 7.2in and 5.5in field guns (for general support), and the 105mm Abbot self-propelled howitzers, are expected to be phased-out before next year.

The 75mm Pack Gun-Howitzer is used for close support in mountains. While the splinter effect of the latter's shell is unsatisfactory, as a portable equipment some examples are likely to be kept in service beyond 2010.

Retiring regiments

The few regiments equipped with 122mm D-30 towed howitzers are expected to retire by 2010. The single 160mm M58 Tampella heavy mortar regiments is likely to be phased out later this year. The 120mm AM-50 Thomson Brandt smoothbore mortars, which are effective to a range of 9,000m with PEPA/LP extended range ammunition, will stay in service.

Under the field artillery's rationalization plan by 2010 the towed artillery will be based primarily on the 130mm M-46, the 155mm FH-77B, and a select number of M-46s upgraded to 155mm caliber. The 105mm Light Field Gun, which is of limited effectiveness in offensive operations or against concrete bunkers, will continue to be employed in the mountains.

The 15-year war (see IDR 12/1997, pp58-61) being fought between India and Pakistan on the Siachen glacier is a localized middle-intensity conflict. It occurs at an altitude of 10,000-21,000ft across a battlefield that is 76km in length and varies between 2-8km in width.

With the stabilization of the military held line, called the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL), the Siachen war has become an artillery battle. India is confronted by more problems than Pakistan because its troops are encamped at higher altitudes - 18,000-21,000ft - upon the Saltoro Ridge, the western edge of the glacier facing Pakistan.

Typical locations on the Saltoro Ridge comprise 'nests' of medium machine guns and automatic grenade launchers, with nearby detachment shelters and fighting positions. A preferred item for shelters is parachute material; there are common cases of cold-arrest of small arms and support weapons, which are overcome by a combination of the wrapping of arms, body heat, and partially successful lubricants developed by the DRDO.

Pakistani artillery includes OTO Breda 105mm Model 56 pack howitzers, 122mm howitzers in troop strengths, 5.5in gun/howitzers deployed as single pieces, and 82mm and 120mm mortars employed in section or troop strength. Pakistan has four independent routes to the Saltoro Ridge from its Dansum garrison, and each has its quota of fire support. Guns at Baltoro take care of the area of Sia La to Khondus, and others have been placed to bring down accurate fire on Indian positions on the AGPL.

Early deployments of Indian artillery were of 81mm and 120mm mortars. It was realized that the Pakistani gun deployments on the Baltoro glacier firing across Convey Saddle-Concordlia at Sia La, and the positioning of artillery to fire at Gyong complex, had to be taken-on by strengthening India's own artillery assets. Moreover, with a stabilization of the AGPL, there arose a need for more artillery for counter-fire purposes.

The initial artillery deployments on the Siachen glacier were of 105mm Indian Field Gun and 130mm M-46 guns. After being broken down into split loads, the guns were dropped on the glacier by Indian Air Force Mi-17 helicopters, where technicians re-assembled them at surveyed locations.

The 105mm guns were deployed at the forward logistics base (called Kumar) and north of it to support Sia La. The heavier 130mm guns were deployed at the base camp. Parachute drops on the Siachen glacier carried out a substantial strengthening of artillery guns and ammunition in 1987. It must be pointed out that if India and Pakistan agree to the withdrawal of their forces from the Siachen glacier, India will have to destroy the artillery guns and huge amounts of ammunition kept along the 76km glacier length, as it cannot be retrieved.

Consistent delivery

ZU-23 twin anti-aircraft guns are being used in a direct fire mode, and Russian shoulder-fired 'Igla' (SAM-16) missiles are available to troops in sufficient numbers.

With the completion of a Class 40 road on the east bank of the Nubra river, between Partapur and Siachen Base, one battery of six Bofors FH-77B howitzers was introduced in Siachen in 1987. Once stabilized, the FH-77B has shown itself to be both accurate and consistent, achieving a range of 42km from altitudes of 12,000ft using High Explosive Extended Range (HEER) base bleed ammunition. The battery is deployed at Siachen Base, and it is interesting to note that India's 150km-range Prithvi missile can be deployed at any location the FH-77B can reach.

Some of the problems faced by artillery at the Siachen glacier are:

· paucity of gun areas, which are extremely limited; given the lack of space, guns are deployed in troops and at times even singly;

· Pillaring' effect, because the gun pits are covered with tarpaulin to prevent slush from dirtying the guns. This does not allow direct sunlight to fall on the gunpit beneath the guns. As a result, unlike surrounding areas, snow under tarpaulin does not melt which results in guns being perched on a pillar;

· freezing of fluids due to sub-zero temperature, hence special arrangements for cleaning the equipment are required;

· survey is difficult as most of the glaciated area is not well mapped;

· shells land in snow and as a result they either do not burst, or their splinter effect is reduced;

· visibility remains restricted making observation difficult;

· in blizzard conditions the surrounding environment becomes 'whited out' and visibility is reduced to a few meters, making navigation difficult and causing personnel to lose their sense of direction;

· The range tables produced for the various guns were not tested at high operating altitudes, and the demonstrated ranges in this region are notably higher then those given in the tables. Firing data has to be extrapolated, and predicted fire may not be accurate;

· Guns are a lucrative target for the enemy; hence security of gun areas assumes greater importance. Guns are deployed in troops which means manpower is limited for local defense;

· Performance of signal equipment is poor because of the climatic conditions. Maintenance of telephone lines is problematic, compounding communications difficulties. It is not uncommon to find the Indian brigade headquarters lacking contact with up to 30 of some 110 posts on the Saltoro Ridge at any given time in clear weather;

· Extreme climatic conditions reduce efficiency of both men and equipment. Wear and tear on equipment is amplified, and it needs to be noted that at heights above 18,000ft no acclimatization of the human body is possible.

On the Himalayan battlefield facing China, the artillery has problems of mountainous and jungle terrain. Some of the important ones are:

· again, gun areas are limited which restricts deployment of guns to a few places;

· the presence of terrain features creates problems of crest clearance - guns are required to fire at a high angle;

· ground observation is restricted to the next crest, and visibility is restricted;

· mountains are generally not well mapped, and there is a need for physical reconnaissance of ground at all levels;

· Road communications are limited in extent and poor in quality. The available roads and tracks can become easily blocked as a result of bad weather or enemy action. Extensive engineering efforts, good movement planning, traffic control, and recovery arrangements are needed to maintain the flow of movements. During operations, the security and protection of the land communications assumes great importance;

· Mechanized transport cannot move cross-country, and the fire support and logistic requirements of infantry units conducting wide out-flanking movements have to be met using animal transport or porters. Sufficient topographical information should be available to determine the best routes for cross-country movement of troops. It must include information about soil formation, characteristics of land forms, drainage and cover;

· Broken ground, irregular mountain topography, and reverse slopes provide numerous places for concealment and cover. The soil is generally thin or stony and the bedrock hard; this makes digging difficult. Observation is variable and range estimation is particularly deceptive. At lower altitudes, there is considerable vegetation that provides cover but restricts observation. As altitude increases, vegetation becomes thinner that reduces concealment but increases observation until the tree line is reached. Above the tree line, broad areas of observation are available in clear weather;

· The mountain air is relatively dry and thin. Dryness increases with the altitude but atmospheric pressure registers a corresponding decrease. These cause a great strain and other adverse biological reactions on human bodies.


In jungles it is hard to provide effective artillery support because observation is poor, gun positions are few, deployment of guns is difficult, and the supply of ammunition is a major problem. Ammunition must be strictly controlled as the supply route would be overburdened. A large expenditure of ammunition on unwarranted targets may result in shortage of ammunition at a critical time.

In this terrain, hostile infantry patrols and small task forces find it comparatively easy to maintain themselves and to operate from bases that are easily concealed. Raids may be expected from any quarter. Gun areas are particularly vulnerable to such attacks.

If the hostile defensive system is based on a network of bunkers or dugouts on the sides of hills, this presents a formidable objective as the bunkers are difficult to locate and hard to neutralize except by a direct hit. The best method of destroying such strong points is by use of anti-tank weapons and by direct fire of tanks, provided a field of fire at safe distance is available. Use of artillery guns in a direct role poses problems and is not very effective. However, the lines of communication of the enemy are usually clearly defined and harassing fire directed against enemy supply organizations can be particularly effective.

High-angle advantages

Crest clearance problems and the need to fire on reverse slopes increase the value of weapons capable of firing at a high angle. It will be difficult for artillery detachments to accompany units moving off from the main axis, on flanking maneuvers or special tasks, to give close and intimate support.

However, artillery systems with long range can cover - from existing gun positions - an advance both along the main axis and on an outflanking maneuver. As gun positions are few, long-range artillery has the additional merit of reducing the number of artillery units required. The ideal gun is one that has a high trajectory, and can be towed by a jeep or carried by mules. It should be air transportable and capable of being air dropped.

The number of observation parties required will be large. These parties will need additional aid in carrying their equipment and for close defense. Good vantagepoints for artillery observation may have to be held and included in the forward defended localities of the infantry. Since it may not always be possible to provide the desirable number of observation post parties, it is necessary for infantry officers to be trained to conduct shoots so that every opportunity to engage targets is seized.

The meteorological conditions will vary considerably and will change constantly. The availability of accurate meteorological data becomes important especially for the engagement of defensive fire tasks.

Positions for radar will be difficult to find and sound ranging equipment is not effective owing to the difficulty of laying out the bases, deflection of sound by hills, and its muffling by trees and undergrowth. For counter bombardment, airborne observers should be used; they should be sent out during an enemy bombardment in order to locate and engage hostile batteries accurately.

It is difficult to estimate accurately the time infantry will take to reach the objective; hence, artillery fire plans will more often be 'on call' rather than on a measured times program. Greater reliance will thus be placed on effective signal communications. 'On call' fire plans would also assist in control of ammunition expenditure that is essential in jungle terrain; control of fire should be vested with the forward observation officers. The fire plan must be very flexible and capable of being modified quickly.

Due to the close country, map reading poses problems. Observation post officers and gun position officers must carry out continuous map reading while on the move. Up-to-date maps need to be made available to units and formations operating in such terrain.

Survey in jungle terrain is problematic and time consuming. Due to close country and inter-visibility problems 'linking up' and establishing a common grid for all fire units involved in a particular operation would be difficult. Since gun areas would likely be few, it would be pertinent to have them compact, thereby assisting in survey and ensuring coordinated local defense of the gun areas. Time allocated for survey tasks should also be increased.

Engagement of targets by observation post officers is difficult because of a lack of observation, target acquisition and indication, and tree bursts. Smoke rounds would be useful in assisting observation, and may be resorted to salvo ranging where necessary. Time for engagement and ammunition expenditure for ranging would be more than in other terrain. Air observation posts would also be useful in registering targets.

Future trends

Seeds of a future conflict between India and China lie in the disputed eastern sector. India has a disputed 3,054km border with China, which occupies 38,000km of Indian territory and claims another 90,000km in this eastern sector, an area of jungle and mountainous terrain.

Purely in terms of artillery, the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army (PLA) has a few groups of M-9 and M-11 missiles in Tibet, which can be fired to strategic ranges or for counter-air and interdiction roles.

The Indian artillery has an edge over the PLA, since the latter suffers from across-the-board restricted high-angle capability. Both sides possess comparable infantry firepower with direct-fire application. The rough mountainous terrain will force both sides to use old anti-tank recoilless guns, rocket propelled grenades, and automatic grenade launchers in direct-fire applications during advance as massing of artillery weapons would slow movement or get diluted because of inadequate deployment space.

To overcome the problems of artillery mentioned above, the following future trends are likely. With improvements in metallurgy and recoil options, guns could become lighter with an automatic high angle and 360 traverse capability. The 105mm Light Field Gun would be replaced completely by longer ranging 155mm guns. Considering that tactical redeployments and inter-sector movements of the FH-77Bs are limited, the strategic reserves would have to be of a high order. More accurate mortars would be inducted into service.

High-altitude tables would need to be more accurate and the meteorological data of a high order, based on airborne instrumentation.

Smart ammunition is likely to be produced in India with technology transfer from friendly countries. Future 155mm shells could be fitted with unjammable proximity fuses, and include guided (laser, radiation or IR homing) and dual-purpose (anti-tank and anti- personnel types) improved conventional munitions types, or remotely delivered mines. The artillery would also be looking at ramjet shells with a range of up to 70km, and more effective projectiles with a long shelf life.

In operational terms, top priority would be accorded to better communications and surveillance, including intelligence gathering and interpretation. Inputs would be based on data gathered from satellite, remotely piloted vehicles, and thermal imagers. Effective remotely placed sensors would assist in salvo firings.

Heliborne units on the horizon

While development of an Indian strategic airlift capability is a distinct possibility, a heliborne tactical operations capability is likely by 2020. Heliborne rapid action forces would possess organic firepower and would be capable of airborne delivery of mines. The Siachen theater is likely to receive such a capability on a priority basis for ammunition re-supply and for local redeployments with several days' ammunition autonomy. There would need to be a quantum jump in communications capability based on airborne relays for fast-moving battles and ground towers for static defensive battles.

On the Siachen glacier, there is a need for infrared camouflage nets for concealment of equipment from enemy air observation. There is also a need for better ground-based radar to replace the current line-of-sight types, and later on for airborne radar.

The maps of the northeast region with China and Pakistan Occupied Kashmir are inadequate. There is a need for digital maps with an appropriate scale that can be used with present guns. Unmanned Aerial Vehicle would be an important asset in order to scan large areas for later artillery exploitation. Finally, more indigenous Prithvi missiles would be allocated to the Chinese front than the western theater with Pakistan.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

rohit, what are the origins of the IFG ?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

IIRC, it was a development from the Royal Ordinance 105 mm piece.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Rahul M wrote:rohit, what are the origins of the IFG ?
No idea actually. But it resembles the British L118 Light Gun.

IFG -

Image

Image
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rupak »

Rohit,
Great job explaining the employment of artillery in mountain areas. If you can get your hands on it is great reading, 12-15 years ago Lancer produced an operational history of the Indian artillery on a non-commercial basis (not for sale). It has detailed accounts of artillery employment during Op Trident, Op Medghdoot and Op Ibex.

It also has detailed account of the development of the LFG from the basic Royal Ordanance design by DRDO .
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_23455 »

If one is willing to expand one's horizons and learn, there is no end to the good stuff out there on the Internet...

Howitzers on High Ground: Considerations for Artillery Employment in Southwest Asia
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vishvak »

[OT here.
If we are trying to use amriki maal then should not we use the same time to get indegenous/in-house-produced gun like IFG and fine tune it. Spending time to fine tune our own weapons is better than black box testing of imported maal.
OT over.]
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_22906 »

Rahul M wrote:rohit, what are the origins of the IFG ?
Inspired/derived from the British L118 field gun...
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by member_22906 »

I guess the bigger need for IA is to upgun from 100mm, 105mm, 130mm to 155mm. Not only do we get the benefit of longer range but also more firepower per round.

What lots of folks overlook is the overwhelming benefit of a larger calibre gun in comparison to the smaller ones. A good example is the good old 25 pounder which almost every (old) gunner worth his salt admired but ask any infantryman about which gun would he fear in war - the 25 pounder or M46, it would be the M46 always...

So while the logistic tail of 155mm increases, it also provides the enough kill power in comparison to the smaller calibres

This post is in response to suggestions of modifying the existing IFG/LFG...
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

an arty officer told me it's an amriki design. I had doubts, hence the question.
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