Bharat Rakshak

Philip wrote:Had Pak behaved against Russia the way it has done with India,it would've been decimated long ago.Don't forget the Russians have a very long military history where they defeated Napoleon and Hitler.In Syria right now,they're showing the world how to win battles against a plethora of enemies from east to west.

Philip wrote:Had Pak behaved against Russia the way it has done with India,it would've been decimated long ago.

Viv S wrote:

Philip wrote:Had Pak behaved against Russia the way it has done with India,it would've been decimated long ago.

It sure as hell doesn't seem to have been 'decimated long ago'.

Paul wrote:Paki F16s have shot down soviet MIGs in the Afghan war.

Soviet and Afghan MiG-23s and Pakistani F-16s clashed a few times during the Soviet war in Afghanistan from 1987. Two MiG-23 were claimed shot down in air to air fight by Pakistani F-16s when crossing the border[14] while one F-16 was shot down on 29 April 1987. Pakistani[citation needed] and Western[15] sources consider it a friendly fire incident but the Soviet-backed Afghan government of the time claimed that Soviet aircraft downed the Pakistani F-16 – a claim that The New York Times and the Washington Post also reported.[16][17] According to a Russian version of the event, the F-16 was shot down when Pakistani F-16s encountered Soviet MiG-23MLDs. Soviet MiG-23MLD pilots, while on a bombing raid along the Pakistani-Afghan border, reported being attacked by F-16s and then seeing one F-16 explode. It could have been downed by gunfire from a MiG whose pilot did not report the kill, because Soviet pilots were not allowed to attack Pakistani aircraft without permission.[18]

Recently, Russia initiated its first ever joint military exercise with Pakistan. A few months earlier, in a first, Russia agreed to sell Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan. Numerous reports also suggest that Pakistan is reportedly in talks with Russia for the purchase of Su-35 combat aircraft. The sale of defense equipment to and military exercises with Pakistan indicate a significant shift in Russian foreign policy.To state that Russia and Pakistan were Cold War enemies is an understatement. Approximately 14,000 Soviet soldiers were killed and more than 35,000 were wounded in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989. Many of these causalities were the consequence of mujahideen forces that received significant support from Pakistan and the United States. Even after the end of the Cold War, Pakistan was an important U.S. ally. As a consequence, the defense relationship between Russia and Pakistan was very minimal. That seems to be changing now.The perception that evolving India-U.S. defense relationship, at the expense of India-Russia defense trade, may have contributed to the shifts in Russian policy toward Pakistan is erroneous. Contrary to popular opinion, India has spent more money on importing Russian military equipment in the recent past. Calculations based on data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) show that from 1994-2004 India purchased approximately $11.43 billion worth of defense equipment from Russia. After the India-U.S. nuclear agreement in 2005 until 2014, arms exports from Russia to India amounted to $20.70 billion.rom 1999 to 2003, India received about 23 percent of Russian defense exports, which increased to 24 percent in 2005-2009 and to 39 percent in 2011-2015. In terms of both absolute numbers and as a percentage of Russian exports, India has procured more from Russia in the last ten years than the preceding period. Higher rates of economic growth and growing security concerns prompted India to diversify its defense acquisitions from various countries including the United States. However, such diversification did not happen at the expense of India-Russia defense trade.

The assessment that the shifts in Indian foreign policy caused the changes in Russian approach toward Pakistan is also based on the assumption that Russia always factored India’s security concerns into its defense trade. An examination of the SIPRI data does not bear out this conjecture. For instance, the figure below clearly demonstrates that for a majority of years during 1992-2006, Russia exported more arms to China than to India in terms of value. Only since 2007 has India consistently overtaken China.The Russian sale of defense equipment happened in spite of a clear understanding that China and India have a border dispute. The rapid decline in China-Russia defense trade after 2006 is a consequence of significant enhancement in the domestic capacities of China’s defense industry, not a conscious strategic choice by Moscow. Further, it should be noted that Russia continues to sell critical defense equipment to China. For instance, Russia has agreed to sell 24 Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft to China.
More recently, news agencies have reported that the development of the Chinese fifth-generation J-20 stealth fighter may have been possible only with substantial Russian assistance. Clearly Russia and China have been collaborating very closely on defense and security issues. Such mutually profitable defense cooperation between Russia and China continues in spite of anxiety in India about growing power asymmetry in favor of China.

Similar rational calculations, rather than a sense of hurt over India’s policy, are guiding Russian policy toward Pakistan. Energy resources and defense equipment constitute critical components in Russian exports. Oil prices, which touched about $140 per barrel in 2008, are now hovering around $45 per barrel. This dramatic fall in oil prices generated stress on Russian exports. On the defense exports front, there are long term challenges. Along with India, important destination countries for Russian arms exports include China, Algeria, Vietnam, Venezuela, Azerbaijan, Iran, Syria, Myanmar, and Egypt. Many of these countries are witnessing shifts in their domestic politics, and some are altering their external postures.
During 1999-2003, China received 44 percent of Russian defense exports, which declined to 35 percent in 2005-2009 and reduced further to 11 percent during 2011-2015. China, which was a significant recipient of Russian military equipment, has built domestic defense manufacturing capacities and has now emerged as the third largest defense exporter in the world.To stem further decline, Russia is working its way back into old markets, such as Iraq, as well as expanding into new markets and sees Pakistan as a lucrative prospective client. Pakistan is the seventh largest importer of defense equipment in the world with China and the United States as its leading suppliers. The ecosystem to sustain a domestic defense industry is still in its infancy in Pakistan and its relations with the United States in the recent past have been experiencing some strain. Therefore, there seems to be a growing convergence between Pakistan’s need to diversify its military procurement and Russia’s need to find new defense markets. It is this convergence that has prompted the shift in Russian policy toward Pakistan.

In doing so, Russia is taking a calculated risk that India will not cancel existing defense contracts in large numbers as retaliation for Russia’s new policy toward Pakistan. This bet is based on three assumptions. One, decades of defense purchases in large quantities have ensured that India will be dependent on the Russian defense industry for spares and maintenance for a considerable length of time. Two, since India is not a member of the United Nations Security Council, it will hesitate to antagonize a veto power that had come to its rescue on earlier occasions. The mere threat of censure on international platforms for alleged violation of human rights may compel India to reach out to Russia. Third, Moscow will continue to offer the sale of high-tech strategic defense equipment, which the United States and others may be reluctant to part with.Given these developments, India need not feel guilty about failing to respond to the challenges confronting the Russian defense trade due to shifts in procurement patterns of countries such as China and others – that is neither the function of India nor should it be the objective. Instead of indulging in unwarranted self-flagellation, it would be prudent for India to focus on using trilateral and multilateral frameworks to create financial constraints for Pakistan’s defense imports. More importantly, a quick progress on strengthening domestic defense manufacturing is an urgent necessity.

Philip wrote:
One aspect of the Afghan War remains a mystery.Why when the Pakis were engaged in the Afghan imbroglio,India did not exert pressure on their eastern and northern borders. Was it the Simla agreement?

30 September 2016 16:45
Comment by the Information and Press Department on the rise in tensions along the Line of Control between India and Pakistan

1778-30-09-2016

We are concerned over the latest rise in tensions along the Line of Control between India and Pakistan.

We are calling on the parties to avoid an escalation of tensions and to resolve the existing problems by political and diplomatic means through talks.

We advocate a resolute fight against all manifestations of terrorism.

We hope that the Pakistani Government will take effective measures to stop the activities of terrorist groups in its territory.

snahata wrote:Just to let u know crimea has a special place in russian psyche, it is literally a cemetry of fallen russian soldiers over the centuries. Russia will be willing to go to war with anyone including the US over crimea. There is no question of giving it back to Ukraine.

JwalaMukhi wrote:

snahata wrote:Just to let u know crimea has a special place in russian psyche, it is literally a cemetry of fallen russian soldiers over the centuries. Russia will be willing to go to war with anyone including the US over crimea. There is no question of giving it back to Ukraine.

Ah, only wish some of the Russians displayed such deep understanding of Pakistan region as ever so eager their friends, nay worshippers in India display about crimea. If only, a few taller than mountain and deeper than ocean buddies Russians understood as to how much Lahore (since Ramayana times or earlier) has special place in Indian Psyche, they would have atleast have had courtesy to not mouth assinine statements about peace and talks with napakis, much less play games inside napak during inopportune times. Hey, such understanding of the psyche and one-sided love affair burden is being borne only by Indians who are smitten with Nehruvian legacy.

Russians have leveraged such "useful people" in India starting with Nehru for a long time now. Few things that Nehru handled has resulted in good for India. Times are changing, such intense blind admiration even at the cost of disregarding their(Russian) behavior is going to be questioned. One better get used to it.

New Delhi: Backing India’s surgical strikes against terror camps in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (PoK) the Russian ambassador to India, Alexander M Kadakin, said that Russian Federation was the only country to say in plain words that terrorists came from Pakistan.

In an exclusive interview with CNN News18, he called upon Pakistan to stop trans-border terror.

He said that his country had always been with India in fighting cross-border terrorism.

“Greatest Human Rights violations take place when terrorists attack military installations and attack peaceful civilians in India. We welcome the surgical strike. Every country has right to defend itself,” said the Russian Ambassador.

Assuring India that it does not need to worry about Russia-Pakistan joint military exercise, he said the exercises didn't take place in "Pakistan-Occupied Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir".

The usage of the word/term “Pakistan-Occupied Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir” assumes a lot of importance.

“India should not be concerned about military exercises between Russia and Pakistan because the theme of the exercise is anti-terror fighting. That's in India’s interests that we teach Pakistani army not to use itself for terror attacks against India. And the exercise was not held in any sensitive or problematic territories like Pakistan-occupied Indian state of Jammu," said the Russian Ambassador.

habal wrote:From my limited experience of Russians, I have understood they are distinct from Soviets like these:
.....<snip>

The origins of this strategic relationship lay in Moscow’s growing rift with Beijing from 1959. The Soviets not only refused to support China in its territorial disputes with India, but also offered MiG-21s to India. Yet, in October 1962, when the Chinese conveyed to the Soviets their decision to attack India, Nikita Khrushchev, then Soviet premier, executed a volte-face. He told the Chinese that there was “no place for neutrality” and put the supply of MiGs on hold. During the war, Moscow shared with Beijing its intelligence on India. It was the Indian turn towards the US that led Khrushchev to revert to his earlier stance.

At the same time, Moscow sought to build bridges with Pakistan—not least because of the growing proximity between Pakistan and China. When Lal Bahadur Shastri travelled to Moscow in May 1965, he was shocked by Khrushchev’s successor Leonid Brezhnev’s unwillingness to condemn the Pakistani incursion into the Rann of Kutch. During the India-Pakistan war, the Russians played an important role in arranging a ceasefire. Subsequently, at Tashkent, they leaned on India to revert to status quo ante and return all captured territory.

Thereafter, the Soviets sought to maintain a balance in South Asia between India and Pakistan. They believed that a conflict between these countries would play to China’s advantage. In late 1968 they announced military sales to Pakistan, triggering a furore in India. Indira Gandhi bluntly told Premier Alexei Kosygin: “Nothing should be done from which it could be inferred that the Soviet Union treated India at par with Pakistan.” Moscow backed off because it now sought a treaty of friendship with India. This desire stemmed from the Sino-Soviet border clashes along the Ussuri river.

India agreed to sign the treaty only in the summer of 1971, when there was a convergence between the US, China and Pakistan on the Bangladesh crisis. Until then, Moscow had advised India not to precipitate a war. And New Delhi hoped to change the Soviet stance by inking the treaty. Much to India’s chagrin, Moscow’s position did not immediately shift. The Soviet foreign minister told Gandhi that they should not “prejudge” whether East Pakistan should become independent: “The heart should be warm but the mind should be cool.” Only after Gandhi’s trip to Moscow in October 1971 did the Soviet leadership take a more supportive stance. Yet, after the Simla agreement of 1972, they insisted that India should not hold back the 93,000 Pakistani prisoners of war.

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the Soviet relationship was crucial for India because of its exclusivity. The USSR—unlike the US—would not provide military equipment or intelligence to Pakistan or China. Soviet technical and financial assistance as well as trade added layers to the strategic relationship.

“India should not be concerned about military exercises between Russia and Pakistan because the theme of the exercise is anti-terror fighting. That's in India’s interests that we teach Pakistani army not to use itself for terror attacks against India. And the exercise was not held in any sensitive or problematic territories like Pakistan-occupied Indian state of Jammu," said the Russian Ambassador.

Philip wrote:Most Russians today have a dim view of Indians and India. We OTOH....

Most Indians who have visited Russia recently rave about the country and the friendliness of its people towardss India and Indians.Well,the :junk" we have been sold ,like BMos,etc.,is what will crush the perfidious Pakis .This "junk" in '71 dismembered them,perhaps history will repeat itself.By the way what arms and from where do the Pakis get their mil capability? F-16s,Orions,Harpoons,TOW,etc.,etc.!

Russia backs surgical strikes, says India has the right to defend itself

TNN Oct 4, 2016, 09.33 AM IST

HIGHLIGHTS
Russian ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin categorically welcomed Indian raids on terrorist launchpads across the LoC.
Kadakin said every country had the right to act in self-defence and called on Islamabad to act against cross-border terrorism.

RELATED VIDEOS
Russia tells Pakistan to stop shielding terroristsRussia tells Pakistan to stop ...
NEW DELHI: Clearing up speculation over his country's recent military exercise with Pakistan, Russian ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin categorically welcomed Indian raids on terrorist launchpads across the LoC.
In a strong endorsement of the Indian action that goes beyond the American statements and extends Pakistan's isolation beyond south Asia, Kadakin said every country had the right to act in self-defence and called on Islamabad to act against cross-border terrorism.
Kadakin said the exercise with Pakistan was in fact intended to encourage that country not to target its neighbour.
"India should not be concerned about military exercises between Russia and Pakistan because the theme of the exercise is anti-terror fighting. That's in India's interests that we teach Pakistani army not to use itself for terror attacks against India.
And the exercise was not held in any sensitive or problematic territories like the Pakistan-occupied Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir," said the Russian ambassador.
"The greatest human rights violations take place when terrorists attack military installations and attack peaceful civilians in India.
We welcome the surgical strike. Every country has right to defend itself," Kadakin was quoted as having told a news channel.
Russia had earlier issued a statement asking Pakistan to take "effective steps" to check terrorist activities on its soil. After the Uri attack, it had said: "Regarding the Pathankot Indian air base attack in January 2016, we are very concerned about the terrorist attacks near the Line of Control. We are also concerned about the fact that, according to New Delhi, the Army base near Uri was attacked from Pakistani territory."
Russia had raised some concern in Delhi with its anti-terror exercise in Pakistan coming at a time when India was looking to diplomatically isolate Pakistan on the issue of terrorism.

However, Russia had even then sought to assuage India's apprehensions by saying the exercise would not take place in areas that are subject to a dispute between India and Pakistan.
This was the first such military exercise between the two countries in Pakistan. Kadakin, however, said Russia had only acted in India's interests by conducting the exercise with Pakistan.

In its statement last week, Russia had said it was concerned with the aggravation of the situation along the LoC between India and Pakistan. It called for the parties not to allow any escalation of tension and to settle the existing problems by political and diplomatic means through negotiations.
"We stand for decisive struggle against terrorism in all its manifestations. We expect the government of Pakistan to take effective steps in order to stop the activities of terrorists' groups in the territory of the country," it had said.

Bheeshma wrote:Then why are Russian troops in PoK

"I don't want to go there, don't want to go there. No no please, I don't want to go there," Russia's Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin said as he quickly interrupted a question on India and Pakistan tensions during a press briefing here yesterday.

Churkin was addressing the media as Russia assumed the Presidency of the 15-nation Council for the month of October.

When asked why he would not comment on the issue, Churkin said "because I am President of the Security Council. The Security Council has not been discussing it (the India-Pakistan situation).

"Sorry sir, I don't want to go there. No comment, no comment, sorry please," Churkin said.

When asked again why he and Russia were "so reluctant" to discuss the India-Pakistan situation, Churkin said, "I'm sure you know. There are so many other things."

Churkin's remarks come as a clear snub to Pakistan, which had approached the Security Council just last week on the surgical strikes conducted by India to target terror launch pads across the Line of Control as well as on the Kashmir issue.