India Nuclear News And Discussion

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GuruPrabhu
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Then there is the issue of transport of coal.

Approximately, 70% of all rail traffic in the US is for ferrying coal.

In India, transport of coal (from mine/port to power plant) is accomplished by burning imported diesel. Increase in coal demand for electricity production will put additional burden on India's already choked rail network. Wah, this technology makes so much sense.
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

But by that logic if we are to run out of coal, we must burn all of it right. So we are going to do all that anyway.

So what is the end game. Remember we have doubled our demand and doubled it again. Nuclear can't replace coal and coal is running out...
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Theo_Fidel wrote:But by that logic if we are to run out of coal, we must burn all of it right. So we are going to do all that anyway.
Yes, we have to burn what is in India -- but why import coal at high price and then burn it?
So what is the end game. Remember we have doubled our demand and doubled it again. Nuclear can't replace coal and coal is running out...
The end game is that nuclear and hydel will be base load with solar and wind adding to the power. Gas fired plants will be able to meet peak load. Gas has a longer term horizon but India has to get a pipeline built through na-pak lands.

After gas also runs out, the only game is a "hope and a prayer" that some new invention has kicked in.

We are doing our children a disfavor by getting them hooked on to an energy intensive consumer lifestyle. IMVVVHO, onlee.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

GuruPrabhu wrote:People love to quote that NPP take 10 years to build -- well, that is precisely why the planning has to be done for 50 years for something as complex as the 3-phase program. The naysayers will not quit until all of India is covered with coal ash. And no one has an answer for what happens when coal runs out -- or even earlier, when coal becomes prohibitively expensive.
Absolutely, and planning long term has always been India's chilees heel..We have alwas planned for yesterday's demand..

On coal specifically, costs of power from imported coal is very expensive - there are numerous studies on that (some posted here as well)...Which is why most of the large thermal power stations are being sought to be built as "pit head" stations, or close to the coal mine...The problem though is this, Indian coal with very high ash content, generically prodices more emmissions...So either we go for the mythcial "super clean coal" using Oz supplies @ high costs, or we build pit-head plants in India and live with more emmissions..

the real point is, there is no silver bullet..The policy choices have to be made locally, depending on a variety of factors..For example, it might make sense to build an imported coal-based plant in Vizag given lesser trasnport costs inland, a pithead plant in Jharkhand (of course, if land acquisition is allowed!), but an NPP in Jaitapur makes eminent sense as well in terms of economics!

The whole bogey on nuclear only 3% mix is getting tiresome...What is the share of coal 50 years into large global subsidies? We have had a gradual decrease in the median capacity size of a median solar plant in the US!
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

From SV's Editorial in Hindu that has been linked in an earlier post:
Rush in now, repent later
. . .

. . . two giant nuclear consortia are forming to manage the clean-up of the Fukushima site. “The first consortium is composed of General Electric and Hitachi, with support from Exelon and Bechtel. The second group is led by Toshiba which is partnered with the U.S. branch of Areva, the French state-owned nuclear giant. Babcock & Wilcox and The Shaw Group are part of the Toshiba team,” he writes in his excellent and authoritative blog, Nuke Notes. Incidentally, cleaning up isn't really their core competence. GE, Hitachi, Areva, Babcock & Wilcox and Toshiba are all in the business of building components for nuclear power plants.

In case readers have failed to spot the irony, let me be blunt about what's going on here. First, you get paid to sell a reactor in a foreign country. Then, under an international liability regime that is explicitly designed to favour you, the entire burden for site remediation and victim compensation in the “highly unlikely” event of an accident is shifted on to the plant operator. Finally, if and when that “highly unlikely” accident does occur, you are not only insulated from any financial claims but you actually get paid even more handsomely to come in and help clean up the mess!

. . .
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Sanatanan wrote: In case readers have failed to spot the irony, let me be blunt about what's going on here. First, you get paid to sell a reactor in a foreign country. Then, under an international liability regime that is explicitly designed to favour you, the entire burden for site remediation and victim compensation in the “highly unlikely” event of an accident is shifted on to the plant operator. Finally, if and when that “highly unlikely” accident does occur, you are not only insulated from any financial claims but you actually get paid even more handsomely to come in and help clean up the mess!
So, what should the policy be if the seller is NPCIL and buyer is Khazakhastan?

Please be specific (in terms of trillions of $$) about how much burden should GOI carry on ensuring the security of Khazakhastan's citizens (NPCIL is a GOI entity).

Also, why is SV assuming that "clean up" will require foreign help? Does he understand anything about what clean up entails? Sanku had posted something similar that clean up will require import of something or the other. What is going on?
Last edited by GuruPrabhu on 25 Apr 2011 08:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^SV is being deliberately disengenuous there..

One, the only entity that stopped the "supplier" from being an "operator" was GOI, in specific, uber nationalists! the best way to ringfence accident liability with the operator is to ensure that the supplier of the design is the operator...But then that would have gotten the goats of SV on one hand AND our nationalists on the other!
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

GuruPrabhu wrote:So, what should the policy be if the seller is NPCIL and buyer is Khazakhastan?
Doesnt pply..The Indian nuke liability law is for plants in India, not Indian exports to third countries...
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

somnath wrote:
GuruPrabhu wrote:So, what should the policy be if the seller is NPCIL and buyer is Khazakhastan?
Doesnt pply..The Indian nuke liability law is for plants in India, not Indian exports to third countries...
I am asking for "what the policy should be", not how Indian laws apply in K'stan.

I just want to make sure that folks appreciate commerce. It is not a one-way street like DDM make it out to be. All this yelling at Uncle's companies will come back to bite India when Indian companies with their mega-trillion-$$ economy want to sell high tech in other countries.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^Well yes, if Kazakhs promulgate the same "Nuke Liability Act", yes, then NPCIL will be afected similarly! But I am not really sure that they have something like that, do they?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

They are not blind. They will note Indian law and implement something similar. India will not be in any position to object.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

GuruPrabhu wrote:They are not blind. They will note Indian law and implement something similar. India will not be in any position to object.
They can for sure! In fact if anyone's really smart, they will simply enact a law that says: "my law or the supplier's domestic law, whichever is more stringent"! :)

Seriosly, something like that is already used for banking regulations...For lots of facetsof banking compliance (things like AML, KYC etc), the standing process is "domestic law or the law of the bank's parent regulator, whichever is tougher"...

Thinking aloud on those lines, specifically on liability, why cant the law follow the same principles? One of the devious strategies adopted by UCC after Bhopal was to get the compensation case transferred from the US (with much higher liability rules) to India (with completely nebulous liability rules) - Nani Palkivala's role in that affair will remain a dark patch in his otherwise sterling record in public sprited-ness...

Why shouldnt we simply lay down a set of rules on liability, and say either them or the operator's home country rules will apply, whichever is more stringent...And allow foreign operators in..Creates a binding accountability-liability matrix...Better than the ham-handed situation we have today..
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

somnath wrote: Why shouldnt we simply lay down a set of rules on liability, and say either them or the operator's home country rules will apply, whichever is more stringent...And allow foreign operators in..Creates a binding accountability-liability matrix...Better than the ham-handed situation we have today..
That is an excellent idea. However, it is beyond the comprehension of Neta-jis who just like to create a ruckus and score political points. The asinine law that was passed barring foreign operators ranks at the top of self-goal stupidity.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

In a delicious irony of editorial happenstance, Hindu today carries this in their Op-ed along with SV's article..

Oil spill in Arctic
http://www.hindu.com/2011/04/25/stories ... 011100.htm
Oil spills can be devastating to Arctic marine environments given the current lack of oil spill response capabilities. Two decades after the Exxon Valdez oil spill devastated a vast stretch of the Alaskan coast, governments and industry in the Arctic would still be unable to effectively manage a large oil spill. The Arctic remains ill-prepared should another spill occur,” it said in a report last year
It is sobering that each major marine oil production area in the United States has seen at least one catastrophic spill: the 1969 blowout of a drilling rig off the coast of Santa Barbara, California; the 1989 Exxon Valdez tanker spill in Alaska; and the 2010 Deepwater Horizon blowout in the Gulf of Mexico.”
Given that the cost of the BP oil spill in the Gulf Of MExico is estimated to be ~30 billion and counting, maybe we should insist on XXXXXXXXXXXX billion dollars of liability each time anyone plonks an offshore rig anywhere in India's EEZ? With so many precedents to go by, at least pricing in the insurance will be easier :twisted:
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

If coal is going to run out in what ever time frame, Uranium runs out even sooner and hence we are all doomed anyway. So dont worry have curry, and oh yes, start thinking about Solar, wind and gobar gas. Cause guess what, they dont run out.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Can one put a 500MW reactor on a barge. Already we have smaller reactors on submarines and aircraft carriers. In case of an accident it can be towed away.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Pranav,

The Rusies have taken a lead on that idea. But the rectors IIRC, are quite small of 30 MW or so.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

I believe that it is obvious to all but a few, so pardon me for stating it. The 3-phase program can keep recycling fuel, so uranium-238 is what counts and not U-235. I have warned folks of not following gora estimates.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^GP-ji, we already have our uber nationalists proclaiming in all solemnity that "Uranium will run out soon" - regardless of the specific isotope, and irrespective of any number of "peak uranium" studies posted on this thread (and the other one)...So how does it matter - gora, kala, peela estimates - its done, "no debates"!!!
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

I thought for the 3-step U-233 counted more. That would then be used to bombard the Thorium to produce more U-233. In any case we have been hearing about breeder stuff for 50+ years. Every time someone's tried it they have been very disappointed with real world performance. Not a a lot to show for it. Also where is the reprocessing facilities that can do this safely.

Meanwhile, an thru and thru anti-national speaks up...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Advan ... d-/780888/
His party had some days ago pointed out the need for a new debate on nuclear energy in India in the light of the crisis in Japan. On Sunday, senior BJP leader L K Advani went a step ahead and criticised the government for disregarding concerns about rushing headlong into the direction of new nuclear energy plants and said the “stubborn refusal” to draw lessons from Fukushima showed how the government had lost even its “political bearings”.

Writing in his blog, Advani suggested that the nuclear crisis in Japan should make India “cautious”. While Advani’s concerns were based on the chain of events at the Fukushima plant hit by the tsunami-induced earthquake, the context was the turmoil in Jaitapur, where ally Shiv Sena is leading the protests against the plant. He slammed Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh for adopting an “adamant stand” on Jaitapur.

Advani pointed out that the tragedy in Japan has disturbed all the countries having nuclear power plants and almost all of them have ordered a review of the safety aspect. “Against the above background, it is surprising to find GoI spokesmen practically ridiculing everyone who voices reservations about rushing headlong into the direction of new nuclear energy plants,” he wrote.
Also the rational behind the EPR's becomes clearer.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?271497
The precautionary steps France has taken should make us view the fears and anxieties of Jaitapur about nuclear power with empathy, rather than dismissing these as paranoia induced in them through the relentless campaign of activists and political parties. Should Jaitapur feel safe because of assurances from French officials about EPRS? Have they, to begin with, won the confidence of their own countrymen? Don’t they, like those in Jaitapur, doubt the government on the nuclear issue? No, they don’t. Since the ASM is independent of the government, its certification of safety enjoys tremendous credibility.

There’s also far greater transparency in France. For instance, officials of Electricite de France, which is building two EPRS for Areva at Flamanville, Normandy, say that before they started setting up their plant, they had to secure approval from the French Public Debate Commission, which gave its nod after conducting 21 public hearings over four months. Such public hearings in India are, more often than not, farcical.

Areva, which is state-owned, hopes to sign the commercial agreement with India later this year. Till then, they expect queries from New Delhi on the safety standards of EPRS. Says a French diplomat, “We have chosen India as our key strategic partner. Jaitapur, and our cooperation in civil nuclear energy, are increasingly becoming the backbone of the two nations’ growing relationship.” India will keep its end of the bargain, not only because Paris helped New Delhi emerge out of nuclear apartheid, but also because this energy is considered vital to sustain India’s growth.

As India vets the answers to the queries about the safety of EPRS, it should perhaps emulate the French in adopting not only their technology but also their best practices. For instance, it ought to take into account the opinion of Jaitapur, allay its fears and anxieties, and ensure its support for the nuclear plant is won through dialogue, not by teargas, lathicharges or firing.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Sanku and Theo Fidel ji,
its official : the "nuclear" power programme is not going to be derailed in India - because among other factors it is solidly connected to "Hindu nationalists"! :lol: [Why am I not surprised at the lead author hailing from NUS! :mrgreen: ]

The socio-political economy of nuclear energy in China and India Benjamin K. Sovacool a, Scott Victor Valentine b,
[*a Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy, National University of Singapore, 469C Bukit Timah Road Singapore 259772, Republic of Singapore
b Graduate School of Public Policy, University of Tokyo, 7-3-1 Hongo, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo 113-0033, Japan

Prospects for the future

Looking forward, it appears that nuclear power is likely to retain a preeminent position as a preferential source of electricity supply in India. Although Indian civil society has experienced change since the start of the nuclear program, with new social groups and movements gaining political power and influence, these have been primarily organized around issues relating to human rights, agri- cultural reform, poverty alleviation, and environmental governance. Nuclear power has largely flown under the political radar. Overall, civic protest has had little influence in deterring the overall trend towards economic industrialization and the marginalization of disenfranchised communities [47]. For example, some members of the communist party in India protested the recent U.S.-India nuclear deal on the grounds that the government was too “obsessed” with nuclear energy and not focused on more important concerns. Hundreds of university students organized a hunger strike to oppose the deal, and rural villagers have protested the siting of new nuclear plants for displacing their homes and farms [48]. However, ultimately most Indians and especially government planners positively viewed the agreement as potentially enabling India to achieve the access to commercial vendors of nuclear technology needed to assure a domestic nuclear renaissance [49]. Civil society and activism in India is active and prominent in many realms, but success in challenging nuclear power has been negli- gible due to legitimacy afforded to the nuclear industry by the state and ongoing secrecy of the program. So far, the scant number of anti-nuclear activists has been unable to cultivate the kind of technologically-credible opposition that has backed successful movements in Europe and North America.
The nuclear power program continues to be a closed affair, segregated from scrutiny by ordinary citizens, politicians, industry and academics. The DAE remains an impenetrable entity and adverse information on costs, leaks, technical failures and so forth continue to remain highly inaccessible [37]. The passage of the Right to Information Act in 2005 does not apply to the nuclear industry. Environmental activism and civic awareness remain comparatively low in India, and environmental laws remain poorly enforced, ignoring nuclear power issues altogether [50].

Economic development continues to be largely government directed despite the ongoing proliferation of private companies amidst the “deregulation” and “liberalization” of the economy [51]. National energy planning remains the domain of central government ministries and state government electricity boards. The association between nuclear energy and visions of progress and national revitalization persists, supplemented by notions of pride and prestige, “Hindu nationalism” and the connection between nuclear technology and the protection and self-defense of India [52,53]. Moreover, there are indications that the challenge of abating greenhouse gas emissions has emerged as a new catalyst to justify the further development of nuclear power as an important electricity source in a carbon-constrained world. Given the confluence of these factors, it seems likely that India’s target of adding 20,000 MW of nuclear power by 2020 will not be derailed.
Source : Energy 35 (2010) pp 3803-3813
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by svinayak »

brihaspati wrote:
Economic development continues to be largely government directed despite the ongoing proliferation of private companies amidst the “deregulation” and “liberalization” of the economy [51]. National energy planning remains the domain of central government ministries and state government electricity boards. The association between nuclear energy and visions of progress and national revitalization persists, supplemented by notions of pride and prestige, “Hindu nationalism” and the connection between nuclear technology and the protection and self-defense of India [52,53].
India was never active part but a victim of the politics of nuclear weapons and and nuclear based energy. India is just a observer on this new domain but had built its own capability. So all these kind of assessment are basically incorrect and actually propaganda and image making.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Theo_Fidel wrote:I thought for the 3-step U-233 counted more. That would then be used to bombard the Thorium to produce more U-233. In any case we have been hearing about breeder stuff for 50+ years. Every time someone's tried it they have been very disappointed with real world performance. Not a a lot to show for it.
Firstly, I seriously doubt that you have been hearing about breeder stuff for 50+ years. Secondly, how many papers from BARC and IGCAR have you read before passing the judgment that there is "not a lot to show"?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

If you have to read papers from BARC (and not papers as in DDM) to know about the progress of a technology, I believe Theo's point is made. :)

(Note I am one of the "supporters" of 3 cycle and do not share Theo's views)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Hmm ... dude in Singapore thinks that India has Hindutva-Breeder program. But, Loh-purush thinks India is heading "headlong" into nuclear. This is the same guy who wanted to blow a nuke bomb within 5 seconds of assuming power :lol:

Things are confusing to say the least. Everyone seems to have had an overdose of radiation from the 29 molecules of I-131 that reached Lok Sabha.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Sanku wrote:If you have to read papers from BARC (and not papers as in DDM) to know about the progress of a technology, I believe Theo's point is made. :)
We know your level of knowledge. No need to reaffirm.

Your earlier post claimed "If coal has to run out ..." :P
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

I had on the international nuclear thread posted a Japanese report titled. "How did Nuclear experts get so arrogant?" I believe that should be mandatory reading for all experts and non experts a like.

I think it is meaningful here as well.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Firstly, I am no "expert". I am just a guy posting on a web forum. And yes, I like to read technical papers.

Secondly, I see that there is a new strategy being plotted. Step 1: post whatever garbage comes to mind. Step 2: throw in random comments in response to anyone who questions the garbage. Step 3: call the other postor "arrogant" and play victim of this "arrogance".

It is very transparent and feeble attempt -- not worth my time.

There is no cure for laziness. Understanding a technical topic requires reading of technical material. Throwing peanuts from the gallery at a theater stage does not qualify as "contributing to the play".
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Bade »

GP, I know you could answer this. The concern here seems to be re-location costs in the event of a LOCA scenario as it seems the most common in NPP accidents. Why not build them underground ? The radiation containment from an accident should be easier. For additional costs, what about INO estimates for a greenfield cavern civil works. Can it be used for a WAG estimate ? Rs 500-1000 crores in India. To me this appears much less than a extensive relocation cost in the event of an incident.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

GuruPrabhu wrote:Firstly, I am no "expert". I am just a guy posting on a web forum. And yes, I like to read technical papers.

Secondly, I see that there is a new strategy being plotted. Step 1: post whatever garbage comes to mind. Step 2: throw in random comments in response to anyone who questions the garbage. Step 3: call the other postor "arrogant" and play victim of this "arrogance".

It is very transparent and feeble attempt -- not worth my time.

There is no cure for laziness. Understanding a technical topic requires reading of technical material. Throwing peanuts from the gallery at a theater stage does not qualify as "contributing to the play".
Strategy being plotted? For what? To ask for public domain proof of what a particular technology has been achieved is not a strategy. It is a basic rule of discussion.

Also if I disagree with anyone, the answer would not be "have you read the notice posted in the basement garage of the local municipal office?" (that was a pun from HHGTG btw) which is a trademark bureaucratic response but
1) Sharing of publicly available material on how the poster was wrong.
2) Persentation of self knowledge on that field.

So you can
1) Point to specific papers which detail how 3 cycle program has moved forward over last X years and how far it is from completion.
2) If you know something not printed publicaly so far, put it in words to share the same.

Which btw I have done in the past (pointed to open source journals on this topic).

Now did I really have to type all that to explain what should have been a self explanatory point?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

IIRC breeders for Thorium have been proposed since the 1950's. After all that's when the fuel reprocessing started in Trombay. So it may even be longer than 50 years. My Dad definitely remembers JLN mentioning it in one of his speeches. Its only recently that the breeder in Kalpakkam was redirected to Uranium/Plutonium. The assumption here is that the DAE has it all worked out and we just need to scale up and this is not true at all. They've fiddled around the edges, converted some Th-232 to U-233 but the know how does not exist to make the full 3-stage work. We don't even know if a Thorium blanket or similar method will work for the third stage.

So yeah! We have been trying to get this to work for a looong time. Still don't even have the full second stage worked out, which if you remember originally, and still, requires/required Thorium not Uranium. Which brings me to the second point, I doubt even the DAE knows if it wants to breed from Th232 or U238 at the moment. I think the ITER will be up and running well before we get the 3-stage even nominally working.

Nuclear always seems promising on paper. One of the reasons Americans are so negative on nuclear is that they were originally promised, "power too cheap to meter". Didn't quite work out that way and the Americans never forgave the industry for that. Nuclear always seems to way over promise and way under deliver.

While we are it let me mention that reprocessing and enrichment are horrendously expensive, esp. in terms of the energy consumed. The Paducah enrichment facility in the US uses gas diffusion and 3000 MW of power to produce about 8000 tonnes equivalent of enriched Uranium fuel. Centrifuges are better but cost a lot more in energy to manufacture and replace as their life is much less. Just o keep in mind this is enrichment as all our new reactors will need such fuel. Reprocessing is another energy hole.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Vandana Shiva Challenges George Monbiot on His Support of Nuclear Power
"We have a very, very strong anti-nuclear movement in India," Shiva said.
Well, what we really need is a coal-free and nuclear-free future, because the sun's energy is so abundant, and we've not even started to tap it in sensible ways. Alternative renewable energies, if only we would put the investments in that direction, would be affordable."
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Bade »

If the goal is additional 50-60 GW from NPP, with ~ 5 GW co-located we need 10 sites or more at a minimum with certain site features which keeps land acquisition and re-location costs minimal, and still close enough to consumption centers of power generated across the country. Mountain caverns seem particular suitable for siting such NPPs. The fixed costs of civil works will have utility value for long time well past the lifetimes of usage of the sites for generating power, and could then be used as waste storage sites. Other defense utilities can be thought of too.

For ten such sites that is $10 billion in sunken costs to begin with as an investment beginning in a phased manner. There are plenty of stable geological areas in the southern and central parts which have such natural containment sites to be used away from the population centers ~30-50km.

Some advantages:
Land acquisition costs less...since it will be mostly be govt owned.
Population relocation costs largely avoided. More like an upfront insurance policy taken by the sunken costs for the facility.
Access to facility is easier than some other ideas like submersible sites.

This applies to even home grown NPPs too.
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Bade,

Good thought. One snag.

So far NPP's have always vented/discharged their radiation from numerous small incidents into the atmosphere or a local stream/ocean. They depend on the dilution to stay safe. In a cavern the first small leak they have will be the last, probably rendering the entire cavern uninhabitable in very short order.

Come to think this might be a good idea. Focuses the mind wonderfully if your first accident will be your last....
brihaspati
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Just a curious question : have all "significant" paleofaults been identified and marked out in the centre-south of the Peninsula? Latur for example was supposed to be geologically stable until the thing happened. Paleo-faults are still only being begun to be understood elsewhere in the world.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

The End of Nuclear Power: Roland Kupers
As the price of nuclear power steadily rises and that of renewables falls, inevitably the cost curves will cross. The only question is when – and it is likely to occur well within the decade that it will take for the next nuclear plant to come online in the industrialized world. In other words, before we finish building the next nuclear plant, it will be an expensive and increasingly irrelevant relic of the 1950’s dream of “atoms for peace.”
Bade
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Bade »

brihaspati wrote:Just a curious question : have all "significant" paleofaults been identified and marked out in the centre-south of the Peninsula? Latur for example was supposed to be geologically stable until the thing happened. Paleo-faults are still only being begun to be understood elsewhere in the world.
Not sure if mapping anywhere in the world is going to be 100% accurate, if one reads account from California alone where instrumentation is maximum and a longer and frequent history. All this from semi-scientific sources.
Bade
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Bade »

Theo_Fidel wrote:So far NPP's have always vented/discharged their radiation from numerous small incidents into the atmosphere or a local stream/ocean. They depend on the dilution to stay safe. In a cavern the first small leak they have will be the last, probably rendering the entire cavern uninhabitable in very short order.
You still need to recirculate water and air, with additional filtration and capture of contaminants and proper storage of wastes collected, before release of clean air and water to the ambient surroundings. Assuming the site is hermetically sealed as is possible, in the event of a meltdown it is still confined and far from population centers. It has more psychological value perhaps 8) , as in what is out of sight is out of mind for the general populace. Controlled access to radioactively hot areas to attend to emergencies with sufficient natural shielding available depending upon details of the design of the works might actually help rather than hinder the cause.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Bade wrote:GP, I know you could answer this. The concern here seems to be re-location costs in the event of a LOCA scenario as it seems the most common in NPP accidents. Why not build them underground ? The radiation containment from an accident should be easier. For additional costs, what about INO estimates for a greenfield cavern civil works. Can it be used for a WAG estimate ? Rs 500-1000 crores in India. To me this appears much less than a extensive relocation cost in the event of an incident.
Bade,

You are talking about more extensive containment. The zeroth order thing to do would be to make the containment vessels x2 stronger. Going under a mountain a la INO is a serious overkill. And, your cost estimate for civil works is low. The total cost of INO, including the ICAL, is about 1,200 crores but an NPP will need at least 10x more volume. For a ball-park estimate think in terms of Rs 1- 2k per m^3 of rock excavated. The problem of services is also there -- you will need to move a lot of water for cooling.

Having said that, the real problem is not one of containing radiation but of containing opinion. No mountain will be able to stop DDM from printing 100,000x higher levels of radiation blah blah.

Here is my take:

There are a few technologies where India is closing in on catching up with the developed world -- you will have to think hard to list 5 of them. There is only one that I can think of, where India is actually leading the world -- no prize for guessing which one.

Pretty soon the drones and DDM will kill that as well. Nuclear power and 3-phase program etc are doomed.
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