Indian Interests

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 05 Jun 2012 13:25

Monarchs in India are not even half as influential as the ones in Europe. Let us agree to disagree on this. And the less is said about the power and wealth of Church in Europe compared to the Devasthanams in India the better. Funnily there is no Hindu-Waqk board.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Jun 2012 17:00

nvishal wrote:Post-monarchy india too allowed royal families to keep their personal wealth, fortunes and even titles(maharajas, nawabs, sultans etc) minus political influence.

Nvishal Garu,

Even if we take your point, monarchies ended officially only in 1947. You are getting confused between monarchy and royal purse which is nothing but glorified retirement plan.

Even democracies have the social strata that we are talking about. That is why a Sr, Jr and Jeff Bush or male,female and baby Clinton etc. Go check their family trees and see the connection.

Coming to Bharat every social strata paid a heavy price during 700-1947. Even after 1947, some sections paid a price for being what they are, including so-called upper castes.

Please research on how Buddhism spread all over india and how those kingdoms ruled. There is a huge uproar over how Tibetans treat their (king) dalaillama and their monks and how ordinary Buddhists live there.

It is very unwise for someone like BR to blame and hate Hinduism for what Charvaka and Buddhist schools did to oursociety and then join the abrahamic powers to weaken and destroy his own motherland.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 05 Jun 2012 20:04

Wasn't there an EJ watch dhaga? anyways since when paul dinakaran started officially blessing the parliament?

on the other hand, I heard of a bird song, wherein rajiv dixit wasn't allowed to enter nagaland, for his religious affiliations. Is this bird song real?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Jun 2012 20:28

Adrija wrote:deveshji wrote
"this is the tragedy of the Dravidians. we went from being the sole remaining independent realm within India, capable of fending off the Islamics and not bowing before them, to becoming enslaved under British Order, and finally to emerge from the British phase with a decimated psyche believing in the grotesque victimization that is the hallmark of the Christian induced Dravidian inferiority complex.

IMHO, this is one of the greatest delusions imposed on Bharatiyas: the inferiority and victim complex imposed on Dravidians, when in fact the Dravida base was the only "base" which was insulated from Islamic colonization, and which retained the classical "Hindu" culture."

What complete bullshit.........amazing that this has been allowed to go unchallenged on BRF

no, it's not bullshit. and the very fact that merely referring to "Dravidians" evokes such responses is an indication of how far the word "Dravida" has been twisted. for me, "Dravida" is not a word to be reviled. I never thought so. I was raised to believe that the "Dravida bhashas" and the "Dravida culture" are an integral part of Bharat. I have indicated this before, but just to reaffirm, the Sri Vaishnava movement started by Ramanuja has a very strong "Dravida" component to it, and the followers proudly assert this reality. the difference between them and the Periyarists is that for the former the "Dravida" identity reaffirms and strengthens the Bharatiya identity, while for the later, the "Dravida" is separate from the Bharatiya. the sri vaishnavas have a strong attachment to the Tamil Alvars' hymns and revere them as "dravida veda" on par with "sanskrita veda". once again, the former does not supersede the later, but buttresses the teachings and belief in the later. coming from that background, when I first encountered the ugly separatism behind the word "dravida", I was gobsmacked. here I was, raised since childhood listening to Tamil hymns every morning, believing in the dravida culture as an inseparable component of the Hindus, only to realize that in the broader world "dravida" has connotations that are the exact opposite of what I believed.

rescuing the Dravida identity from the morass of Christian induced separatism is a necessity. the worst thing we can do is develop a revulsion to the "dravida" concept simply because our understanding only extends to the recent history since the meddling of the British began.

I am saying that the entire "dravida" thing can be a purely cultural notion with the intent to preserve the Hindu identity, and can even be used to de-Islamize the North. but only if the victim-complex of the last 150 years, brought by Christians, is erased!!!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Jun 2012 20:34

^
+1008

Request people to check these posts
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1168491
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1168988

yo ‘sau satyavrato nāma, rājarṣir draviḍeśvaraḥ
jñānaḿ yo ‘tīta-kalpānte, lebhe puruṣa-sevayā
sa vai vivasvataḥ putro, manur āsīd iti śrutam
tvattas tasya sutāḥ proktā, ikṣvāku-pramukhā

Translation
That saintly king and ruler (king) of the Dravida Countries who was known by the name of Satyavrata, at the end of the last kalpa (before the Pralaya) .. received knowledge by service to The Purusha, he indeed was Vaivaswata Manu, the son of Vivaswan, his sons have been proclaimed as the kings, famous as the Ikshvakus.

What this implies : The divine and dark Sri Rama, who was a descendant of Ikshvaku was the descendant of the Dravida King, Satyavrata Manu. This fits in with the time of Sri Rama, the Vedas and the late arrival of Aryans into India.

“vivasvataḥ — of Vivasvān; putraḥ — son; manuḥ āsīt was Manu”

The people who support the Aryan theory translate the words Manuh Asit differently. Instead of saying “Was Manu”, they interpret this as “became manu” or was ” reborn as manu” – this is a case of retrofitting translations on a pre-concieved theory).

Satyavrata Manu moved north with Vasishtha and the other Saptarishis as well as one of his sons Ikshvaku, who established Ayodhya after the flood waters had receded. He was also known as Vaiwasvatha Manu and Sraddha. His other sons stayed back and survived with the help of Ganesha and Uma. (Pralaya Katha Vinayaka and Mata: Kruta Yuga Flood Narrations)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jun 2012 22:14

Devesh, South India or Dakashin got fractured after the defeat of Vijayanagar Empire during the colonial interlude. Language became a new identity. And INC made this concrete. And death of Potti Sriramulu precipitated it.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Jun 2012 23:23

^
Amuktamalyada by Sri Krishna Devaraya

AmuktaMalyada is a Tamilian devotee's story that happened in Tamilanadu, written by a Kannada king in Telugu language. That too he wrote this book while doing his swa-dharma of ruling under Hindu Dharma and fighting foreign Islamic invaders.

His ancestors are said to be Kannadigas. He ruled a Telugu kingdom between the Andhra and Kannadarajya. He won Kannada and Tamila nations. He brought Telugu nation under his rule. He wrote Sanskrit books.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Jun 2012 13:04

Has anyone seen this list of Swiss Bank account holders? Is it authentic?

http://ramanan50.files.wordpress.com/20 ... ccount.png

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 06 Jun 2012 13:13

It has to be authentic, Swiss bank uses crores and also give out country wide information in a individual account report

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Jun 2012 13:35

I liked the answer

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Jun 2012 15:25

Symontk-> lovely answer

, such Hoax hardly help the Indian cause of combatting corruption

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jun 2012 20:58

nVishal garu,

You are jumping all over the place.

(1) Given the fact that every society has social strata irrespective of its religion, location, political model etc., and given the fact that all the societies have one or the other method to exploit the larger-weaker sections of the society, then why did BR Ambedkar blame only Hinduism for the social ills of India (he lived between 1891-1956)? Especially given the fact that India went thru major religious, social and political transformations first by Buddhism (300BC-1200AD), Islam (700AD-1600AD) and then Christianity (1600AD-1947)?

Starting from Ashoka, the Maurya, Sunga, Kanva, Guptas, Pala dynasties belong to one or other Buddhist sect. Then how could BR assume that the social and political structures of Bharat are influenced and decided by the Hindu dharma and not Buddhadharma? Aren’t we told that Buddha dharma is about destroying the erstwhile varna-ashrama dharma? Then how could he assume that even after 1000+ years of state patronage of Buddhism, the oppression of so-called lower castes persisted only due to Hinduism?

One of the more enduring legacies of Ashoka Maurya was the model that he provided for the relationship between Buddhism and the state. Throughout Theravada Southeastern Asia, the model of rulership embodied by Ashoka replaced the notion of divine kingship that had previously dominated (in the Angkor kingdom, for instance). Under this model of 'Buddhist kingship', the king sought to legitimize his rule not through descent from a divine source, but by supporting and earning the approval of the Buddhist sangha.

(2) Then, why did BR Ambedkar conveniently ignore the social, political and religious contributions and patronizing of certain systems/values by Buddhism, Islam and Christianity and put the blame solely on Hindu society that was under one or the other type of pressure for ~2000 years till his time? Given his foreign education and his understanding of Islam (remember his thoughts on Pakistan) how can we think that he was not aware of the state/religion sponsored suppression, exploitation and slave-trade of these societies?

(3) Assuming that BR Ambedkar is only interested in reforming the Hindu society and not the religious minorities of Bharat then what it tells about his motivations? Why did he convert to Buddhism (which came with its own dogma – as we can see in Buddhist texts, culture and practices), which is equally repressive (look at any contemporary Buddhist societies) if not more?

(4) If we put aside the cost/benefits of reservations on Indian society (I am sure we can argue both sides), how is a birth-based reservation different from birth-based caste system? Is BR Ambedkar only interested in “transfer of power” and not in addressing the underlying esoteric/philosophical/social/individual issues OR is he not capable of working at that level?

Assuming other religions do not have the caste issues, then why do we see various back-ward sections of Christians and Muslims demanding affirmative action in recent times? If that makes the social-strata issue universal to all the religions, political structures and societies then does it make BR Ambedkar’s intellectual premise wrong to begin with? Then why do we want to implement a solution that is built upon a wrong premise?

(5) What does the future hold for Bharat? Will the current model of constitutional socialist, secular democracy solve the social, economic and political problems of India? Will it protect India’s unique culture, heritage moving forward? Will it enhance India’s value proposition in any way?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Jun 2012 21:02

The line of thinking that divides Buddhism and Hinduism is flawed. And against Indian interests. Contemplate on it.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jun 2012 21:10

^ Thanks harbansji. I am aware of the implications, but I am not able to pinpoint my thoughts yet. We are in the 'purvapaksha' phase now. That is why I am putting my thoughts as questions, for now. I too am trying to figure out whether we are moving backward to Satya-Yuga as this Drashtha envisions on his blog

or are we moving forward to the 2nd Pada of Kaliyuga.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 07 Jun 2012 01:29

http://www.niemanlab.org/2012/06/for-th ... -audience/
The Times’ nine-month-old project has shifted its content mix as it tries to reach audiences both in South Asia and in the Indian diaspora.
( Till couple of years ago, they wont even do the daily update on india)

But just because the Times’ audience is defined more by demographics and interests than by geography, that doesn’t mean location has become meaningless. One of the newspaper’s most important experiments in the space is India Ink, a nine-month-old, English-language, blog-style account of Indian news — including politics, culture, sports, lifestyle, and the arts.“One of the things the Times is figuring out is what do we do in English around the world? Where do you go with an English-language site in India?” said Jim Schachter, associate managing editor at the Times. “What do we do in foreign languages? What do we do that’s The International Herald Tribune brand, and what do we do that’s The New York Times brand? We’re not decided or settled on any of that. It’s all interesting.”The Times has used social media, geo-targeted ads (so readers in India see ads for the blog when they visit nytimes.com), and events in India to get the word out about India Ink. India was the right country for such a project because the newspaper already has a “very large number” of readers there, Schachter said. (He wouldn’t give more precise numbers other than to say that India is “very high on our list of international audiences.”)“The hypothesis was if you heavy-up on content there, and you focus on that audience, there’s something to nurture,” said Schachter. “There’s a thread to pull on. That’s largely what we’re doing. In fact, there’s some work going on now to try and use the ability of our website to target geographically — just sort of get even more in people’s faces.”Yet despite the promotional work in India, so far, most of the blog’s readers are outside of it. Heather Timmons, who runs India Ink for the Times, estimates that about half of readers are in the U.S., 40 percent in India, and 10 percent elsewhere. The fact that the majority of readers are visiting the blog from outside of India doesn’t surprise Schachter, who suspects that many India Ink readers are from the Indian diaspora “everywhere around the world.”

“If you look at, say, the Google analytics, which is an imperfect gauge, there is large readership where there are large populations of the Indian diaspora: London, greater New York, Houston, Northern California,” Schachter told me in an interview at the newspaper’s New York headquarters. “I mean, those are also big populations. If you start looking at the commenters — so commenters’ locations, Indian surnames — it enforces that impression. That’s a very good thing because, I don’t want to cast dispersion, but there is not a great media diet for the non-resident Indian. So if we’re that, that’s a great thing

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Jun 2012 06:24

Views from the Right

MODI FOR PM

In A column based on his psephological work in the RSS weekly Organiser, G.V.L Narasimha Rao has tried to build a case for Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi being projected as the BJP’s prime ministerial candidate in 2014. Quoting a survey done by him seven months ago and opinion polls carried in several TV channels, Rao says that only charismatic leadership can help propel the BJP to power. In several states where the BJP has made marginal gains, argues Rao, Narendra Modi can be the decisive factor in swinging votes.

“These polls show that Modi as the BJP’s mascot has the ability to expand the BJP’s vote base and appeal, much like Vajpayee did in the 1990s,” he says. He adds that projecting Modi would deliver good results for the BJP in Uttar Pradesh, where the party saw a decline in its fortunes.

He claims that this move would also help the BJP to garner enough voteshare to start winning seats in states like Orissa and Haryana, and improve its voteshare in states like Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh and West Bengal to make it an attractive pre-poll alliance partner. He stresses the importance of charismatic leadership for the party’s future, and says that “merely banking on the sliding fortunes of the Congress will only make it go half the distance in its run for power.”

NO RESERVATION

The Organiser’s editorial this week welcomed the Andhra Pradesh high court judgment striking down sub-quotas for minorities in the state. The editorial goes on to argue that reservations for minorities is unconstitutional. “If caste is a reality of India as they claim, then why are they not amending their other religious tenets to suit the cultural realities of India? Why do they cling to their religious diktats on dress, social norms and codes and civil laws?” asks the editorial.

It criticises the UPA government and the Planning Commission for its policy of setting aside 15 per cent of all funds earmarked for development for minority-related programmes. “This 15 per cent is only the minimum and not a cap, the committee clarified. At a rough estimate, the government will have to earmark Rs 42,000 crore annually during the 12th Five-Year Plan for minority concentrated areas,” says the editorial. It urges “nationalist” parties to protest these moves and identifies the Sonia Gandhi-led NAC as the main mover behind these policies.

PARTY PROBLEMS

The RSS Hindi weekly Panchjanya carried a signed article by former editor Devendra Swarup where he addressed the major issues facing the BJP right now. Swarup first laments that despite the work being done by governments headed by the BJP in various states, it still finds itself at the centre of controversy.

Swarup urges the party to look within for flaws. He cites the recent behaviour of Modi vis-a-vis RSS man Sanjay Joshi. “Modi and Sanjay Joshi are both RSS pracharaks so why has Modi taken such an attitude to Joshi? Why did he make Joshi’s presence at the Mumbai national executive a prestige issue, and make it a matter of media controversy?” asks Swarup.

He concludes that while there are many leaders, including CMs, who could be worthy of the PM’s post on behalf of the BJP, the party should refrain from declaring a face for the general elections of 2014, and instead elect one if it has the necessary number after the elections.

Compiled by Nistula Hebbar

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jun 2012 20:14

Yesterdin I was watching a telugu movie "Nitya Kalyanam Pacha Toranam" and this curve-ball occurred to me.

Vyakti = Individual Level
A family has two sons. One of the sons wanted to convert to another faith and marry a girl from other caste/faith against the feelings of the family and swa-dharma. The father was very upset that the young boy gave more importance to the feelings of his girl friend (or his own) than the feelings of all of his family members put together. Secondly the father thought that young man was intellectually bankrupt to become disloyal to his own Dharma, which is the foundation of his native society.

The father kicked him out of the family, gave no share in his family wealth (or whatever the young man wanted - it doesn't matter). He called him Kula-Bhrastha (fallen-clan member) and made him untouchable to the family.

Samisthi = Social Level
There is once a great nation has part of its population convert to another faith and built their own social, political and religious structure tangent to the overall national interests. The converted group thought they have nothing in common with their family nation and wanted to pursue their future with their adopted faith/culture as a separate entity.

The parent nation felt betrayed. The converted group took its share of family wealth and got separated as a separate nation. The separated nation called the parent nation its mortal enemy. The parent nation called the separated entity a fallen-nation and called them Desa-Bhrastha (fallen-Desa/nation) and made them untouchables (no automatic nationhood, citizenship and other associated rights).

***

In the first scenario the parents of the youngman are marked as regressive, superstitious, fanatic etc., and the youngman progressive, liberal and civic etc.,

In the second scenario the core-nation became nationalists where as the separated-nation became terrorists, jihadis etc.,

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 07 Jun 2012 20:25

"In the first scenario the parents of the youngman are marked as regressive, superstitious, fanatic etc., and the youngman progressive, liberal and civic etc.,

In the second scenario the core-nation became nationalists where as the separated-nation became terrorists, jihadis etc.,"

That's good, because in the first scenario, the individual does not lose, or attempt to deny, his Indic roots and orientation. But in the second, there is a denial and hostility.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jun 2012 20:32

^ It depends... What Indic roots and orientation my bottom, when the person doesn't do his duty toward family, parents and his dharma? Interestingly in the movie the daughter of the youngman carries mother's faith (in name, symbols, personal attire etc.,) which is different from (once youngman's) dharma.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 08 Jun 2012 07:05

From the Urdu Press

Sub-quota for minorities

Supporting the Andhra Pradesh high court’s judgment on the Central government’s order of a sub-quota of 4.5 per cent for minorities in the 27 per cent reservation provided for OBCs, Rashtriya Sahara, in its editorial on May 30, writes: “This reservation is certainly not on the basis of religion. Therefore, if in the list of traditional professions for reservation (as provided by the Mandal Commission), any biradari of Muslims is included, it would also be accorded reservation. The Central government glossed over this provision and created the impression that Muslims are being given this reservation on the basis of religion and the high court rightly rejected this provision. This is fraudulent... Reservation on the basis of religion negates the principle of secularism that is a fundamental principle of the Constitution... How can the Supreme Court uphold the government’s order when the Constitution does not allow reservation on the basis of religion?”

The daily Siasat, published from Hyderabad and Bangalore, questions in its editorial: “When there is no provision for reservation on the basis of religion in the Constitution, why did the Central government not make legal preparations for such a measure?” It adds: “Muslims are not going to gain anything if the government’s move remains caught up in legalese. The government had issued its order for 4.5 per cent sub-quota before the recent UP elections to garner Muslim votes.”

The daily Inquilab, published from over a dozen centres including Delhi and Mumbai, sees a clever political game on the part of the government. It writes in a commentary on June 1: “It seems that the Central government feels that its order will also be rejected by the Supreme Court. That is why it is now being hinted that it would not back out even if the Constitution has to be amended to benefit minorities through this measure.”

The Delhi-based daily, Jadeed Khabar, in its editorial on May 30, points out that “it should be noted that the Muslim share in the 4.5 per cent sub-quota for minorities was only 3 per cent and the rest was for other minorities. But this sub-quota was popularised only as reservation for Muslims and it was challenged in the court on this basis itself.”

Jamaat-e-islami’s bi-weekly, Daawat, has expressed its opposition on a more fundamental level in a commenton June 4. “The consideration behind such a reservation, particularly for Muslims, is not right. There is no place for a caste system in Islam, howsoever deep its roots may be in the country... The oppressed and backward people are not to be given any benefit and they can be denied such benefits on the basis of religion. For instance, if a Scheduled Caste chooses to convert to Islam, s/he would be deprived of the quota of reservation for SCs.”

Petrol Price Rise

The steep rise in petrol prices has come in for criticism. Daawat, in its editorial on May 28, writes: “The most surprising aspect of petroleum prices today is that at a time when there is a trend of fall in oil prices in the international market the Central government has taken such a hard decision and the prices have increased. What compelled the government to take such a step? The prices were not allowed to be raised during the last six months, despite a trend of rising prices in the international market, in view of some state assembly elections during that period.”

The paper points out: “Oil companies here fix their prices according to the situation in outside markets like Singapore and Dubai. But India imports crude and not finished petrol, so how can its prices be compared to those in the international market? While fixing petrol prices, the actual cost of refining and marketing in India should be considered, apart from the import price of the crude.”

Rashtriya Sahara (May 25) says that the government’s decision to reduce crude import from Iran would lead to additional strain on prices as it would be more expensive to import from other countries, compared to importing from Iran, because of the distance.

Protest or Politics?

THE Hyderabad-based daily, Munsif, in its editorial on June 1, writes: “The Bharat Bandh sponsored by opposition parties was successful but it cannot be described as effective. It can be called successful because public transport was unavailable and shops, offices and educational institutions were closed, but the spirit of the objective with which it was called — providing relief to the people hard-pressed by rising prices — was not seen anywhere. Every party was busy trying to get cheap popularity”.

Compiled by Seema Chishti

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Jun 2012 08:35

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... AA&dur=531

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 08 Jun 2012 21:40

Beautiful Murthi of Narayana in the shayana pose! I've never been to Thiruvananthapuram, so never seen Anantha Padmanabha swamy yet. is that how the Murthy really looks? and is it a picture of the Murthy itself?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 08 Jun 2012 21:51

Wouldn't be surprised if theft is already taking place...

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Jun 2012 22:07

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Keep-Cal ... o-its-hype
How India failed to live up to its hype
The Great Indian Hype Machine

Hype is a powerful thing. It prompts us to pick up “great” novels, download “earthshaking” albums, or buy shares in a company destined to “change the world.”Hype is also used to sell countries like India as “emerging regional players” or “economic tigers,” and according to this week’s Economist magazine, India has failed to live up to its billing.India's growth of only 6 percent, down from it's goal of 8 percent growth, shows India has failed “to live up to rising expectations,” says Jim O’Neill, the Goldman Sachs analyst who coined the term “BRIC” for the quartet of emerging nations Brazil, Russia, India, and China. And it’s a growth level that could prevent India from lifting more of its citizens out of poverty.This week’s Economist magazine says that hype may have been the problem all along. India seems to have believed its own hype – that it was “destined for fast growth” – when, in fact, there was still a great deal of hard work to be done to loosen up governmental controls on the economy so that it could actually grow. Now that the economy has slowed down to 6 percent, foreign investors and Indian citizens alike are starting to lose faith.India, unlike the other BRIC countries, is still desperately poor. One businessman and guru interviewed by your correspondent recently declared that "the next fifteen years will be India's worst since independence" and that there was a one-in-10 chance of a revolution. If India's economic miracle turns out to have been a mirage, it will not be so easy to dismiss that kind of talk as cranky.

( Kanha Aa gye hum, Congress ke Saath chalte chalte,Italian Madam ke neeche, hai crook, chor Palte )

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 08 Jun 2012 23:57

devesh wrote:Beautiful Murthi of Narayana in the shayana pose! I've never been to Thiruvananthapuram, so never seen Anantha Padmanabha swamy yet. is that how the Murthy really looks? and is it a picture of the Murthy itself?

Devesh-saar, that is not exactly how it looks like. It is n-times majestic to view in the light of oil-lamps. And gigantic. People who guarded the temple for centuries, they all say it takes their breath away every-time. Even after viewing it every day for a lifetime.

Back in 2008, I remember seeing a bronze one like the above pic in Cauvery@Bangalore. Price-tag was ~50k Rs

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Jun 2012 02:00

^ Thanks harbansji. I am aware of the implications, but I am not able to pinpoint my thoughts yet.

Ramay Ji, if you are not able to pinpoint beyond the ritualistic aspects in 'Hinduism' then don't propagate Western classifications differentiating Buddhism and Hinduism. The more people differentiate between strands/ opinions of Dharmic thought, the more 'Hinduism' is sidelined into the Casteist, mouth frothing, Idolistic, cow Pee drinking category..even as categories keep dividing and lesser people claim to be Hindu. It's time many of us understood that if we did think deep enough. That is why i ask contemplation on this matter. It is amongst the most important in understanding India today and it's enriched cultural and religious past too.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Jun 2012 03:52

^ will do so.

You are misunderstanding the difference between accepting and owning Non-Vedic Indic religions and using them as the basis for national existence, differentiation and preservation. There is a lot of difference between them. Non-Vedic Indic religions cannot given the required Impetus to fight Abrahamic faiths and colonization. Why? Some of these religions themselves are colonial in nature, have supported caste system (not Varna-Ashrama dharma) worse than Hindusim, and even worse dogmas than cow-urine drinking (if you believe that).

There is a lot us Hindus have to learn about Hinduism first, before we can affectively counter the nonsense that the western propagandists throw at us. That doesn't mean we hide behind a Charvaka system like Buddhism which paved way for subsequent destruction of Bharat (it was too late by the time Adi Samkara came on to the scene).

Even if we accept Buddhism and Charvaka systems as the basis for our modern civilizations, what is the guarantee that one will not blame the casteism on those ideologies? There alaready is some research in this direction and it has been posted on this forum. Buddhism is respected only until Hinduism is destroyed. Once that is done, Buddhism too will be brushed aside to make way for Abrahamic faiths (complete lack of faith will be the new Satan).

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Jun 2012 04:07

Hinduism is a colonial construct too.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Jun 2012 07:40

^ could you pls explain how?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Jun 2012 20:26

Ramay Ji, there never was a word called Hindu in the first place. It was a name given by Arabs to people living in the Indian subcontinent. It encompassed people with many different strands in thinking. When the Europeans came and started differentiating and taking census, the urge to explain a common basis came up. We started the vain attempt to define Hinduism. Something that gets even the best scholars' knickers in a twist till date. The Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Arya Samaji's, Hare Krishna'ites and many more to come stopped defining themselves as Hindu's. Next in line will be the Shaivites, Vishnu'ites etc. The attempt to try and encompass a large section of Indians under a 'Hindu' banner somehow did not work too well. The reason is it was an external construct entirely made on a geographical premise and not a religious one.

Whether one believes in the Vedas or not, the basic common strands within the original geographic native Indic commune was the concepts of Dharma and Moksha, whether rooted in Granth, Veda's, Upanishads, Buddhist Cannons, Jain scriptures or the Bhagavad Gita or whether we wrapped a turban around our head or a lungi/ dhoti around our legs immaterial. The basis in Dharma concept of Moksha and alone should have been the basis of our core common identity. But no we revolve round still trying to explain Hinduism and differentiating Buddhism, Jainism etc.

Ironically the more we differentiate, the more we narrow down the 'Hindu' base. The more we move away from the commonness of our core heritage. The more we feel less empathy to the plight of other fellow Dharmics as we display towards Tibet.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 09 Jun 2012 20:55

Hindu is basically any Subcontinental Dharmic.

Indic is basically any Subcontinental whose spiritual loyalty lies with Bharat. He could be from a Dharmic tradition or simply have an outlook compatible with those belonging to the Dharmic tradition, viz-a-viz the interests of Bharat.

So as Indic, I would theoretically consider a bigger group than Hindus. Indian Parsees may be considered here, or some tribal groups or individuals.

JMTs

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Jun 2012 22:46

harbans wrote:there never was a word called Hindu in the first place.
<snip>

OK, now I understand where you are coming from. It is a huge topic and will take lot of time/posts to cover all the items. Let us go one by one. From this post I will number the points so you/others can track/debate/refute them.

(1) If we want to define all the people living in the geographical location of Bharata Varsha, they are called Bharatiyas. We need not use Hindu/Sanatana Dharma term to indicate them. It will remove the religious angle from the discussion.

(2) If Hindu is a foreign name to the people living in Bharat, then it must have started at a given point of time. Let us assume the first recorded foreign encounter with Bharat happened in 500BC (or you can pick a date). Then we need to understand who saw what and recorded what about the then Bharatiya society.

There are two historical datings of Bharatiya history
Western Construct - Dates Bharatiya history after 2000-1500 BC and all the chronologies that come with it. Dates Gautama Buddha around 563-483 BCE

Bharatiya/Indic construct - Dates MB war 3100BC, presents a circular time concept, dates Gautama Buddha around 1800 BC.

This is important because this will give you the "version" of Bharatiya society the foreign societies interacted with.

(3) In either case, we can safely assume that whatever foreign interactions (so-called recorded history) Bharat had, happened much after Bharatiya society went thru the social, political and religious transformations kick started by various Charvaka schools of thought. So whatever (so-called) recorded history we have had about Bharat, it is already a Charvaka/Buddhist dominated Bharat, and not Vedic/SD Bharat.

(4) Then why did they call it Hindustan? If we assume that Hindustan is the geographical area dominated by Sindhu/Indus river (as we are taught in schools, then what about all the lands in other river basins such as Ganga/Yamuna delta, Godavari/Krishna/Kauveri delta? Are we saying that no civilizations (developed or primitive) existed in these regions before/during that period when foreigners interacted with Bharat for the first time?

will continue later on this line of thought so I am not going completely OT for you...
***

(101) The debate is about "the intellectual base/foundation" we want to use to rebuild our Bharat after we thought we got Independence. Since the then political intellectuals (the naya-Brahmans) "believed" in Charvaka world view and did not believe in SD they chose to write our constitution the way they did. I am questioning this very foundation of the thought process and NOT Buddhism/Charvaka/Other-isms per se.

(102) Let us take the example of Caste-based reservations (affirmative action) and see if how SD Dharma would have approached this issue.

Issue: Quite a few strata of the society are denied access to “Education” and the social/economic benefits that came with that. Here education is of two types – The traditional/cultural education and the secular (लौकिक = worldly/materialistic) education.

Premise: It is believed that the lack of academic and educational opportunities resulted in the exploitation of this social strata. It is also believed that lack of access to religious/cultural education is a result of or root cause of social ills like untouchability etc.,

Solution under Charvaka worldview: Provide birth-based reservations to 'selected' castes and offer them educational and job reservations. The assumption is that the increased access to modern education and economic progress will make these social strata more confident and become equals in the eyes of the upper-castes.

Underlying assumptions:
a. The problem was created and continued by certain sections of the society irrespective of their material fortunes, social roles but by their birth (caste)

b. Materialistic solutions can be applied to cultural/religious problems.

c. The upper castes did not mingle with lower castes because they did not have material wealth and did not have access to upper level jobs in the society. Upper level jobs in the society are defined as policy making, administrative, decision making and leadership roles.

d. Once progressed the so-called lower castes (no more lower because they were uplifted by reservation system) will voluntarily forego this affirmative action.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 10 Jun 2012 01:23

NDTV is running an anti-national show stating that "India's claim of Siachen as unreasonable"
This is a desperate move by New Delhi TeleVision and must be banned from broadcasting effective immediately.
I urge forum members to respond to this reckless Anti-Nationalist activity.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 10 Jun 2012 01:45

Altair garu, they will hide under editorial prerogative.

Perhaps there are better ways to organize a campaign that reach out to real uNDTV audience. We need a internet based news watch program that highlights the inconsistencies, inaccuracies and motivations of paid media.

It needs be satirical in nature while keeping the logic and facts in the criticism. Something like how our brothers are doing w.r.t paki-bojitive-neuj.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 10 Jun 2012 02:08

Ayyo! You are propagating hatred and violence onlee.. We must not hate/harm our 'terrorist' uncles and 'traitor' aunties. That is fascist thinking only and gives raise to new gitlars...

We need to find a way to channel this frustration for long-term gains - politically, strategically and dharmically.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Jun 2012 02:26

RamaY miyan: Stay tuned. I will post some paragraphs from Rahul Sankritayan. It will increase your blood pressure.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Jun 2012 03:14

Rahul Sankrityayan's essay: धर्मं, दर्शन और सदाचार (Religion, Philosophy and Virtue)

Summary:

1. In the beginning, people created the concept of God and demons to explain/get rid of their fears. The role of religion was extremely limited.

2. Later the ruling classes created new complexities in religion to safeguard their selfish interests.

3. People tried to explain the differences in class by using Vedic mantras which referred to various parts of body like head, thighs, foot, etc.

4. When people did not buy these simplistic solutions, they were told that the inequalities are due to the wishes of God and they are poor due to their actions in previous births.

5. People go to heaven/hell on the basis of their actions. Judaism, Islam and Christianity ended their religion-based explanation here. Why are some people poorer than others? Blaming this on God will make him appear biased. To justify the inequalities, the rishis in Upanishads invented the concept of "rebirth".

6. He then quotes an Egyptian writer: "All religions are the products of feudalistic mindset. Look at the characterization of heaven in these religions. Life in heaven is extravagant and luxurious."

7. Indian philosophy is the gift of feudalism. The feudal class (e.g., Vaideh, Kaikeya, Ashwamati) directly contributed to the initial growth of philosophy in Upanishads. They also paid the greedy purohits/brahmins who created a maze of Brahma-gyan and swept Karma-kanda under the carpet.

8. What happens in a yagya done by Brahmins? People eat, drink som-rus and dance. Things were different before. These days, the yagyas are a cheap mimicry of what used to happen before. They are just a source of income for the purohits. This is the result of the rise of Upanishads which are opposed to Karma-kand.

9. The idea of "rebirth" is first seen is Upanishads. The Vedas stress the ideas of immortality. As discussed before, this was done to keep the society divided into different classes. It is unsatisfactory if the results of giving gold (silver is not good enough) to purohits in grand yagyas can only be seen in heaven. Therefore the concept of rebirth was introduced for two purposes: (i) Increase the income of Brahmins and (ii) Justify the inequalities in the society.

10. The idea of heaven was not thrown away. It was left as an old arrow in the quiver. The feudalistic mindset of Upanishad-writers confused the educated by the ideas of Brahma-waad, neti-neti and अज्ञेय (beyond comprehension). Everyday problems faced by the society were considered too small and insignificant. The ideas of heaven and rebirth were sufficient to confuse the average people. To ensure that people are not attracted towards other religions, the slogan of नदिया एक, घाट बहुतेरे (one river, many shores/banks) was coined.

---

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 10 Jun 2012 03:24

must be from his marxist days....'feudalistic'? I understand what feudualism in medieval Europe was. What is the description of feudalism in the early times Sankrityayan talks about?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Jun 2012 03:31

http://www.business-opportunities.biz/2 ... ush-beans/
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In India’s northern desert states, farmers are scrambling to harvest as much as they can of a bean with the power to lift them out of poverty. In the United States, the multi-billion dollar shale energy industry is banking on their success.U.S. companies drilling for oil and gas in shale formations have developed a voracious appetite for the powder-like gum made from the seeds of guar, or cluster bean, and the boom in their business has created a bonanza for thousands of small-scale farmers in India who produce 80 percent of the world’s beans.“Guar has changed my life,” said Shivlal, a guar farmer who made 300,000 rupees ($5,400) – five times more than his average seasonal income – from selling the beans he planted on five acres (two hectares) of sandy soil in Rajasthan state.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 10 Jun 2012 04:40

Abishek_Sharma garu,

The first point itself becomes illogical in SD context. Everything came from Param. From Param came chaturmukha-Brahma or Creation/Viswam. Daityas and Aaditeyas are children of same Prajapati Kasyapa.

Often times realized asuras became part of Shiva ganas - Gajasura, Mushikasura etc.,

There are good Daityas like Prahlada, Bali etc., and bad Aditeyas (often Indra himself is cursed). By the time we enter Dwapara, Banasura's (Bali's great-grandson?) daughter is married to Krishna's grandson. That is the story of Usha Paraniyam.

I can de-construct every point if you wish me to waste the bandwidth of BR.