PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

[VikramS]

Sidor:

The spread exists only in that part of wong's anatomy where sun is not supposed to shine.

The last time he had bought that up I had shown him the graph of the BSE vs Shangai. Same net results over the past five yeras, with the SSEC having 3x the volatility.


What wong fails to understand is not that Indians are concerned about China's growth; they are more concerned about the aftermath of when the show ends and the stagnation starts. With a badly skewed sex ratio, and its power in danger, the PLA-CCP combo may not be mind going to war to prove their manhood.


With official interest rates nowhere close to the rate of inflation, CCP is indulging in a massive transfer of wealth from the common Chinese worker who is working hard & saving for a better future to the SEOs and the elite who lord over them.

That article linked above talking about not only the transfer of wealth outside China but the need to get citizenship is not surprising. All unbalanced systems without a safty net will eventually face the music.

[ashi]

Deleted

[VikramS]

wong:

The difference is that India does not have leaders who want foreigners to take their women because there are too many of them.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=asia

Or a judicial system which executes close to 10000 people with little legal representation.

China started her movement towards a non-socialist society much before India and the results are there. The big difference is that Chinese growth has been parasitic on the rest of the world, and frankly unsustainable much longer as the importing states face the music; growth in India is primarily organic. India did not have to do a gazillion dollar stimulus to grow; nor did she have to go out and buy worthless European bonds (or support the EUR at 1.42 for a long time), so that Indians can continue to have access to foreign markets.

If history repeats itself, once the music stops playing how will the CCP/PLA thugs behave? Will it be a Tinnamen style or another invitation to "take our men" because there are too many of them?

And it is funny to see you point at Falung Gang is hardly impartial. A country which censors speech to the extent China does and you have the audacity to point fingers at others. The brain-washing is so complete; it is dangerous.

Regarding matters of size of the human anatomy, the last thing the Chinese should be doing is picking up a battle there...

Frankly your search for capitulation is more an indication of your state of mind and the Chinese need to be recognized to have the biggest schlong, than anything else. Unfortunately like in the anatomical aspect, even when it comes to countries, China will not get it from here. Our civilization has survived almost a 1000 years of continuous assault without losing its identity, and CCP led China, with a complete detachement from its cultural and social moornings, will never earn it, schlong or no schlong.

And frankly Chinese should not be talking about surrender and capitulation, Whenever you have the itch, just click on the link from the wikipedia to see who has historically has set the standards.
Setting standards on capitulation....

[anishns]

And you do realize that India's sex ratio is even worst than China's, right ??

Below is stats from wiki for sex ratio under the age of 15.
Sex ratio by country population aged below 15. Blue represents more women, red more men than the world average of 1.06 males/female

Unless you are color blind, the sex ratio for India will be fine in the mid to near future.


VikramS: Please remove the last link from your post above, it is in bad taste and demeaning to women.

Good day!

[VikramS]

anishns:
I have edited the link to the main page out of deference to the wishes of other folks.

[Christopher Sidor]

Sidor:

The spread exists only in that part of wong's anatomy where sun is not supposed to shine.

LOL.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm

And you do realize that India's sex ratio is even worst than China's, right ??

The widening spread I was referring is basically everything from Human Development Index to Patents to GDP to Electricity Consumption to Calories Consumed. Basically everything, whether the sun shines there or not.

Thanks for confirming capitulation is no where in sight.

I was looking for figures on "spreads" and not what BBC is reporting on some study based on condom size. Unless off course like all your statements, the statement on the so called "spreads" is based on some unsubstantiated facts and assumptions.

[zlin]

China in latest world top500 HPC ranking
http://www.top500.org/lists/2011/11

ranking by countries


World latest top 14 HPCs

[Hari Seldon]

Doesn't bode well at all when Al Jazeera - that beacon of liberty, equality and fraternity and second only to Xinhua itself - now laments that abject conditions tantamount to slavery helped in PRC's economic miracle.

Dunno how much credence to give it but everyone knows that Qatar based Jazeera is a western psy-ops tool when it comes to reporting on the rest of asia...

Prison slaves

China is the world's factory, but does a dark secret lurk behind this apparent success story?
[...]
"We were not paid at all, we were forced. If anyone refused to work, they would be beaten, some people were beaten to death." - Charles Lee, former prison inmate

No kidding...

Once an isolationist communist state, over the last 20 years China has become the world's biggest exporter of consumer goods. But behind this apparent success story is a dark secret - millions of men and women locked up in prisons and forced into intensive manual labour.

China has the biggest penal colony in the world - a top secret network of more than 1,000 slave labour prisons and camps known collectively as "The Laogai". And the use of the inmates of these prisons - in what some experts call "state sponsored slavery" - has been credited with contributing to the country's economic boom.

In this episode, former inmates, many of whom were imprisoned for political or religious dissidence without trial, recount their daily struggles and suffering in the "dark and bitter" factories where sleep was a privilege.

Charles Lee spent three years imprisoned for religious dissidence. He says: "For a year they tried to brainwash me, trying to force me to give up my practice of Falun Gong. They figured me out ... so they changed their strategy to force me to feel like a criminal ... because, according to their theory, a prisoner should be reformed through labour .... So they forced me to do slave labour."

Read it all and there's a video too. Am sceptical, of course, but still...

[Singha]

so helpful...marked with yellow highlighter and photographed again to show us all who has the more shlongs.

its another matter though that fellow northern han biraders South Korea with barely 3 holds far more technology high ground than PRC....so maybe the number of shlongs dont matter...

[Christopher Sidor]

China in latest world top500 HPC ranking
http://www.top500.org/lists/2011/11

Congrats....

[Surya]

vikrams

please remove the Nanking link

that was a horrible act perpetrated by the Japanese and no decent human being can ever disagree on that

[gakakkad]

so helpful...marked with yellow highlighter and photographed again to show us all who has the more shlongs.

its another matter though that fellow northern han biraders South Korea with barely 3 holds far more technology high ground than PRC....so maybe the number of shlongs dont matter...

the schlongheads are talking like they own intel or nvidia .. any half educated ee/ comp arch. guy can buy a couple of thousand processors and assemble a supercomp... I mean what do they use these for ? besides h & d slugfests ?

[VikramS]

vikrams

please remove the Nanking link

that was a horrible act perpetrated by the Japanese and no decent human being can ever disagree on that

While what the Japanese Army did was certainly not honorable, neither was the defense put by the government of China or the chivalry displayed by them when they prevented the common people from escaping, leaving them defenseless, while the elite military scooted in order to draw the Japanese into the vasts land mass of China. Perhaps that is where the TSPA learnt about the need for strategic depth after down-hill skiing, and how the Abduls need to sacrificed so the elite can thrive.


On the topic of decency: CCP and human decency do not belong in the same sentence. We are talking about an organization which in the past war-gamed nuclear holocaust and liked the end result, because China with its large population will survive and then rule the world. While you could argue growing pains a generation ago, what justifies their continuous proliferation of nuclear material to the people who are most likely to use it; and use it against Indians?

The Chinese narrative views itself as a victim of colonial oppression; however with their rise, they are behaving exactly like the erstwhile colonial powers. The imitate what they supposedly loath and detest; they have no original vision. It is not only at the geopolitical level, but also at a personal level; no wonder Western luxury brands are thriving in China while they struggle in India.

[Christopher Sidor]

vikrams

please remove the Nanking link

that was a horrible act perpetrated by the Japanese and no decent human being can ever disagree on that

While what the Japanese Army did was certainly not honorable, neither was the defense put by the government of China or the chivalry displayed by them when they prevented the common people from escaping, leaving them defenseless, while the elite military scooted in order to draw the Japanese into the vasts land mass of China. Perhaps that is where the TSPA learnt about the need for strategic depth after down-hill skiing, and how the Abduls need to sacrificed so the elite can thrive.

The Chinese narrative views itself as a victim of colonial oppression; however with their rise, they are behaving exactly like the erstwhile colonial powers. The imitate what they supposedly loath and detest; they have no original vision.

Vikram what you say is true with regard to the double standards practiced by PRC. While PRC expects the world not to forget the Nanjing Massacre and is frequently seen lecturing the Japanese in this regard, their response and behavior during the Genocide of Bangladesh in 1970s or during its own cultural revolution is breath taking. Further the nationalist Chinese government, which prevented the orderly withdrawal of civilians before the city was surrounded, is a crime which ranks equal in magnitude to what the Nipponese carried out.

However having said this, we should not forget that the "Nanjing Massacre" was a heinous crime carried out by crazed Nipponese. We should not belittle the thousands of innocent that perished. Nipponese in the end killed/maimed/raped defenseless people who had surrendered. These people were treated worst than dogs and cockroaches.

[g.sarkar]

Perils of working in China.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/world ... ?ref=world
"BEIJING — After two decades of working as a successful engineer in the United States, Hu Zhicheng decided to return to China in 2004 and apply his rich experience to designing catalytic converters for the nation’s booming automotive industry. “I saw how polluted the air was here, and thought I could make a difference,” said Mr. Hu, a naturalized American citizen who has a doctorate in engineering.
Now it seems he cannot leave.
The last three times he tried to board an airplane and return to his family in Los Angeles, Mr. Hu, 49, was turned away by Chinese border agents who claimed that he was a wanted man. The problem is, he cannot find out exactly who wants him and why.
Mr. Hu, an inventor trained at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with 48 patents and a number of prestigious science awards to his name, was jailed for a year and a half starting in 2008 after a former business associate accused him of commercial theft. The charges were so spurious that prosecutors withdrew the case — a rare gesture in China’s top-down legal system........."
Gautam

[ashi]

Chinese automaker Chery's exports to hit all-time high in 2011

China's leading private automaker, Chery Automobile Co., Ltd., is expected to export a record 170,000 units of vehicles in 2011, marking the highest annual export figure in the company's history, a company manager said Friday.

[saptarishi]

Perils of working in China.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/world ... ?ref=world
"BEIJING — After two decades of working as a successful engineer in the United States, Hu Zhicheng decided to return to China in 2004 and apply his rich experience to designing catalytic converters for the nation’s booming automotive industry. “I saw how polluted the air was here, and thought I could make a difference,” said Mr. Hu, a naturalized American citizen who has a doctorate in engineering.
Now it seems he cannot leave.
The last three times he tried to board an airplane and return to his family in Los Angeles, Mr. Hu, 49, was turned away by Chinese border agents who claimed that he was a wanted man. The problem is, he cannot find out exactly who wants him and why.
Mr. Hu, an inventor trained at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with 48 patents and a number of prestigious science awards to his name, was jailed for a year and a half starting in 2008 after a former business associate accused him of commercial theft. The charges were so spurious that prosecutors withdrew the case — a rare gesture in China’s top-down legal system........."
Gautam

thats why we recommend india

[Katare]

Hu raises poverty line by 92% before regime change

The new threshold for measuring poverty has been raised 92% from the prevalent yardstick fixed in 2009 to $362 in terms of the annual net income of farmers and other rural poor.

[vina]

Nice. In India, poverty level is fixed at around the equivalent of $1 a day , closer to $1.17 a day I think.

Now China defined poverty levels at much lower levels and had 92% LESS poverty than if it had defined at $1 a day ? All "Piss and Plogress" onree! I wonder how thinks would look if China defined poverty levels closer to $1.5 to $1.6 a day, which is still roughly some 20% below what it should ideally be in China given it's relative economic growth and price levels.


But OMG, if you do that, Chinese poverty levels will approach the Indian poverty levels! Tut-Tut , cant have that can we ? What will happen to all that Propah-Gandha that was sprouted out for long in places like JNU about "Socialist Development" and China example etc. etc.. if that is what is shown at the end of the day. What will happen to the Professional Poverty Purveyors (PPP) who have made their entire career and life out of sob stories about poverty in India (eg Amartya Sen) and the much ballyhooed Cuba, China and Kerala models. Eh.. what will happen ji, I ask you.

[ashi]

Nice. In India, poverty level is fixed at around the equivalent of $1 a day , closer to $1.17 a day I think.

Now China defined poverty levels at much lower levels and had 92% LESS poverty than if it had defined at $1 a day ? All "Piss and Plogress" onree! I wonder how thinks would look if China defined poverty levels closer to $1.5 to $1.6 a day, which is still roughly some 20% below what it should ideally be in China given it's relative economic growth and price levels.


But OMG, if you do that, Chinese poverty levels will approach the Indian poverty levels! Tut-Tut , cant have that can we ? What will happen to all that Propah-Gandha that was sprouted out for long in places like JNU about "Socialist Development" and China example etc. etc.. if that is what is shown at the end of the day. What will happen to the Professional Poverty Purveyors (PPP) who have made their entire career and life out of sob stories about poverty in India (eg Amartya Sen) and the much ballyhooed Cuba, China and Kerala models. Eh.. what will happen ji, I ask you.

You are wrong, again. India poverty level is fixed at 32 rupees/day for city, 26 rupees/day for rural, translates to around $0.6 and $0.5.

China's newly defined poverty line, $1/day, is only for rural area. Not sure what is the figure for urban area.

[zlin]

Nice. In India, poverty level is fixed at around the equivalent of $1 a day , closer to $1.17 a day I think.

Now China defined poverty levels at much lower levels and had 92% LESS poverty than if it had defined at $1 a day ? All "Piss and Plogress" onree! I wonder how thinks would look if China defined poverty levels closer to $1.5 to $1.6 a day, which is still roughly some 20% below what it should ideally be in China given it's relative economic growth and price levels.


But OMG, if you do that, Chinese poverty levels will approach the Indian poverty levels! Tut-Tut , cant have that can we ? What will happen to all that Propah-Gandha that was sprouted out for long in places like JNU about "Socialist Development" and China example etc. etc.. if that is what is shown at the end of the day. What will happen to the Professional Poverty Purveyors (PPP) who have made their entire career and life out of sob stories about poverty in India (eg Amartya Sen) and the much ballyhooed Cuba, China and Kerala models. Eh.. what will happen ji, I ask you.

You are wrong, again. India poverty level is fixed at 32 rupees/day for city, 26 rupees/day for rural, translates to around $0.6 and $0.5.

China's newly defined poverty line, $1/day, is only for rural area. Not sure what is the figure for urban area.

You are wrong too. Indian official poverty line is kind of a puzzle. It doesn't base on income directly, but on minimium daily diet of 2400 kcal in rural or 2100kcal in urban per person. If translated to income, it's about $0.25 a day in rural based on this rediff article
How poverty is calculated in India

India's official poverty measure has long been based solely upon the ability to purchase a minimum recommended daily diet of 2,400 kilocalories (kcal) in rural areas where about 70 percent of people live, and 2,100 kcal in urban areas.

Rural areas usually have higher kcal requirements because of greater physical activity among rural residents.

The National Planning Commission, which is responsible for the estimate, currently estimates that a monthly income of about Rs 356 (about $7.74) per person is needed to provide the required diet in rural areas and Rs 539 in urban areas.
Factors such as housing, healthcare and transportation are not taken into account in the poverty estimates.
The estimate is derived from the National Sample Survey, which measures monthly per capita consumer expense every five years.

Under this official poverty line, there are about 328 million Indians are under poverty.

[zlin]

Hu raises poverty line by 92% before regime change

The new threshold for measuring poverty has been raised 92% from the prevalent yardstick fixed in 2009 to $362 in terms of the annual net income of farmers and other rural poor.

The new official poverty line in China is 2300RMB/year per person's pure income, which is about US$361 if use nominal. But it is about $2 if use PPP as world bank standard ($1.25 PPP or new $2 PPP poverty line). So basically China is adopting world bank's poverty line now.

[vina]

You are wrong, again. India poverty level is fixed at 32 rupees/day for city, 26 rupees/day for rural, translates to around $0.6 and $0.5.

Nope. It is not . That was a proposed planning commission draft on the amount of income at which some below poverty benifits were sought to be curtailed. Not a definition of poverty line in India.

China's newly defined poverty line, $1/day, is only for rural area. Not sure what is the figure for urban area.

With a PPP of close to $6000, China's poverty levels will have a much higher definition than the $1 a day. The actual poverty in China is a huge undercount by any measure, even with this 92% increase due to "Glanpa Wen".

You are wrong too. Indian official poverty line is kind of a puzzle. It doesn't base on income directly, but on minimium daily diet of 2400 kcal in rural or 2100kcal in urban per person. If translated to income, it's about $0.25 a day in rural based on this rediff article

Nope. That is why this calorie based poverty calculation is wholly bunkum. By that estimate I dont consume 2100 KCal a day (though I am an "urban" person) and I dont consider myself poverty stricken by any measure.

Under this official poverty line, there are about 328 million Indians are under poverty.

The "proposed official" poverty line is the one to consider and that is around $1.17 per day and is far closer to reality. Yes. If it means 448 million Indians are below poverty, that has to be faced squarely in the eye and addressed. We still have a long way to go there. No two ways about it.

Now, put the poverty line at $3 per day at China (it's PPP is 3 times India's t, so a rough equivalent measure would be that for the $1.17 to $1.25 in India) and let us see how many Chinese are below that line , I am willing to bet a number quite close to 300 million at least. Basic question is what percentage of the Chinese population earns approx $1000 per annum per capita ? Traditioanally that $1000 is the hurdle between extreme poverty and being just poor to somewhat middle income in the $5k to $10K range.

[zlin]

Nope. That is why this calorie based poverty calculation is wholly bunkum. By that estimate I dont consume 2100 KCal a day (though I am an "urban" person) and I dont consider myself poverty stricken by any measure.

The 2100Kcal poverty line is the only Indian official government poverty line. Don't argue with me. As I said, it's a puzzle to me, and probably to every one. Don't compare to Chinese government official poverty line directly.

Now, put the poverty line at $3 per day at China (it's PPP is 3 times India's t, so a rough equivalent measure would be that for the $1.17 to $1.25 in India) and let us see how many Chinese are below that line , I am willing to bet a number quite close to 300 million at least. Basic question is what percentage of the Chinese population earns approx $1000 per annum per capita ? Traditioanally that $1000 is the hurdle between extreme poverty and being just poor to somewhat middle income in the $5k to $10K range.

PPP has already adjusted for differences in the cost of living in different countries. Although I don't believe in PPP at all. If use <$1.25 PPP world bank line, there are about 488 million indians unver poverty. If use <$2 PPP world bank line (China new standard), there are about 887million Indians poor (80%?). Here is World Bank about Indian poverty from same source

None other than the World Bank has busted the hype about India's post-liberalisation success.

According to the Bank's new estimates, India is home to roughly one-third of all the poor in the world.

The new estimates are based on recently re-calculated purchasing power parity exchange rates that make comparisons across countries possible.

The new PPP has been arrived at as 'the average poverty line found in the poorest 10-20 countries,' according to the Bank's briefing note.

In other words, nearly five out of 10 Indians live below what the world's poorest countries consider the poverty line.

These sobering figures have emerged from the World Bank's latest estimates on global poverty, and clearly hint at the fruits of economic benefits having failed to trickle down to India's poor.

The data available shows that the rate of poverty decline in India was faster between 1981 and 1990 than between 1990 and 2005.

[vina]

The new official poverty line in China is 2300RMB/year per person's pure income, which is about US$361 if use nominal. But it is about $2 if use PPP as world bank standard ($1.25 PPP or new $2 PPP poverty line). So basically China is adopting world bank's poverty line now.

If it is $361 per day nominal, then China's poverty "New" line is not very different from Current Indian poverty line !

Refer back to the figure you posted!



$361 per annum works out approx to Rs 50 per day! In any ways, $360/365 days ~ $ 1 per day, which is the classic old definition of poverty as an income of $1 per day!

So what "Glandpa Wen" did was raise Chinese definitions to standard world definitions and the population below poverty exploded 92% in China!.. When "Glandpa Wen" raised the poverty level definition to the global standard of $1 per day (a 92% increase), the population below poverty exploded by 300% It shows the manipulation under the Shanghai stats that was done earlier.

Fix it to $2.5 to $3 (which is what it should ideally be me thinks in China, after all if China's Nominal GDP and also PPP is nearly 3 thrice India's , if Indias' is $1, China's should be 3, ) (ie double level again by another 100 to 200%) poverty will explode by another 300 to 500%. ie.. anywhere between 300 million to 500 million min at least.

[zlin]

If it is $361 per day nominal, then China's poverty "New" line is not very different from Current Indian poverty line !

You should correct the error/put new "Current Indian poverty line" to Rediff editor, and your Indian government. And don't forget to update wikipedea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Below_Poverty_Line_(India)

Income based poverty line in India

The poverty line was originally fixed in terms of income/food requirements in 1978. It was stipulated that the calorie standard for a typical individual in rural areas was 2400 calorie and was 2100 calorie in urban areas. Then the cost of the grains (about 650 gms) that fulfil this normative standard was calculated. This cost was the poverty line. In 1978, it was Rs. 61.80 per person per month for rural areas and Rs. 71.30 for urban areas. Since then the Planning Commission calculates the poverty line every year adjusting for inflation. The poverty line in recent years is as follows - (Rs. per month per head)

This income is bare minimum to support the food requirements and does not provide much for the other basic essential items like health, education etc. That is why some times the poverty lines have been described as starvation lines.[2]

New survey

Going into a survey due for a decade, India's central government is undecided on criteria to identify families below poverty line. The survey is carried on the basis of guidelines and criteria evolved by India's Union Ministry of Rural Development, by the state government. This survey will be used as a reference tool for the 12th five-year plan and in the Right to Food Bill, which is in the final stages of drafting. The 10th and the 11th five-year plans had missed this mandatory survey because of a Supreme Court stay order. Identification of BPL families is necessary for implementing centrally-sponsored schemes, such as subsidised food and housing targeted at them.[1]

So what "Glandpa Wen" did was raise Chinese definitions to standard world definitions and the population below poverty exploded 92% in China! It shows the manipulation under the Shanghai stats that was done earlier. Fix it to $2.5 to $3 (which is what it should ideally be methinks in China) poverty will explode by another 100 to 150%.

if you change indian poverty line from $1.25 to $2 PPP, the indian poverty population explodes 82% too.

[vina]

You should correct the error/put new "Current Indian poverty line" to Rediff editor, and your Indian government. And don't forget to update wikipedea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Below_Poverty_Line_(India)

Err. You were the one who noted that current Indian entitlement (not poverty) estimates were calorie based. And you quoted a Wikipedia which said BELOW poverty line in India! This calorie thingy is just a proxy measure and you have to be extremely extremely poor to get a Below Poverty Line (BPL) card in India which entitles you to benefits significantly below that of people who are just poor.

So, dont get caught in semantics and it is not easy to get it from Rediff headlines, just take what I tell you. Go back and see the changes I made to my earlier post and if a realistic estimate of poverty is done in China, you will have atleast 500 million poor who will need serious state support!

[ashi]

India's official poverty line doesn't measure up

India's poverty line has always been a matter of huge debate, but it was a discussion mostly confined to economists and policymakers. But the matter has now gone public, following a row about an affidavit from the planning commission to the supreme court of India, in which the official poverty line was set at 26 rupees (around $0.53) per person per day in rural areas and 32 rupees in urban areas.

[vina]

India's official poverty line doesn't measure up

India's poverty line has always been a matter of huge debate, but it was a discussion mostly confined to economists and policymakers. But the matter has now gone public, following a row about an affidavit from the planning commission to the supreme court of India, in which the official poverty line was set at 26 rupees (around $0.53) per person per day in rural areas and 32 rupees in urban areas.

Exactly. Guardian doesn't know crap about what it is writing and you regurgitate it. What that 26 and 32 Rupees was a proposed cut off to get BPL (below poverty line) card, which is meant for extremely poor and gets far greater subsidies than a "poor person" availing social security schemes like subsidized rations. This is NOT the poverty line definition in India.

And sure, if you think you can have people living for less than $0.5 a day in China and call only THEM poor and give social support and have it reflected in country statistics for "face" reasons, be my guest.

In India, there is a healthy debate on it. I never see anything in China , except platitudes of "Poverty Has dropped considerably" (it sure has, both in China and India, but it doesn't mean negligible poverty like your Shanghai stats show) . It is only when Hu did something as drastic as a 100% revision in the poverty line, you start seeing some truth.

As Warren Buffet said "It is only when the tide goes out you find you who has been swimming naked!"

[ashi]

Exactly. Guardian doesn't know crap about what it is writing and you regurgitate it. What that 26 and 32 Rupees was a proposed cut off to get BPL (below poverty line) card, which is meant for extremely poor and gets far greater subsidies than a "poor person" availing social security schemes like subsidized rations. This is NOT the poverty line definition in India.

And sure, if you think you can have people living for less than $0.5 a day in China and call only THEM poor and give social support and have it reflected in country statistics for "face" reasons, be my guest.

In India, there is a healthy debate on it. I never see anything in China , except platitudes of "Poverty Has dropped considerably" (it sure has, both in China and India, but it doesn't mean negligible poverty like your Shanghai stats show) . It is only when Hu did something as drastic as a 100% revision in the poverty line, you start seeing some truth.

As Warren Buffet said "It is only when the tide goes out you find you who has been swimming naked!"

26/32 is the number that draws the line whether the poor will get any help from the government. So what is the official poverty line definition in India? Care to share the source?

[zlin]

As Warren Buffet said "It is only when the tide goes out you find you who has been swimming naked!"

Yep, the tide is waning and looking who are naked

[vina]

India's official poverty line doesn't measure up

Indeed, thank for pointing out to this gem of an article from The Guardian, written by who else, but the uber Ideologue from JNU (the Marxist necropolis of learning in India), Jayati Gosh.

What is interesting is one very pertinent comment which a poster called "BlackAdder" asked.

So tell me, does the World Bank's definition of the poverty line measure up? It is $ 1.25 / day in PPP terms, how much does that translate to in Rupees? 15-20 Rupees a day, a level even lower then the Planning Commission estimates?Is the World Bank in a giant conspiracy with the UPA government to undestate the number of poor in India? Please tell us

To which Jayati Gosh waffles a response, which is surely shows where she and her fellow ideologues are coming from. But she admits to one thing.. what they were talking about as "Poverty Level" is actually "Extreme Destitution Level" . She is ideologically in favor of universal subsidies and public distribution and she is entititled to her opinion and that is a healthy debate on it in India, unlike in China where such things are never discussed, if at all!

Blackadder2001, please see the following response from Jayati to your question:

'I'm really glad you raised this question, because the World Bank's PPP estimate of poverty is based on an even lower poverty line for India! The World Bank converts the per capita income in India into “Purchasing Power Parity” US dollars, based on the view that because prices of many goods and services are lower in India, the actual exchange rate will give an exaggerated view of poverty. Currently the bank lists India's consumption PPP exchange rate as Rs 19 to the dollar (instead of the actual Rs 48-50 to the dollar). So the World Bank's benchmark poverty line of $1.25 per dollar per day translates into Rs. 23.75, or just under Rs 24 (for an average of rural and urban India) which is even lower than the Planning Commission lines of Rs 26 per day per person in rural India and Rs 32 in urban India. This captures not poverty but extreme destitution. But also, even this PPP rate contains many questionable assumptions about prices of goods (they last did a price survey in 2005) and the average consumption basket (they assume similar consumption patterns to the US average, which is very misleading not only because consumption patterns differ greatly across countries but also because prices of goods that the Indian poor consume more of, like food, have risen faster than other prices recently). The use of this benchmark figure of $1.25 per day in PPP exchange rates has become standard in development circles, but it is analytically unsound, empirically problematic, and greatly understates the full extent of poverty in the developing world.

Thanks for raising this important point.

Jayati'

So coming to the point, if China is doing the PPP equivalent of $1.25 per Word Bank figures , as some posters here claimed and if you accept Jayati Ghosh's view of what it measures (as just extreme destitution), it just shows that the people in "Extreme Destitution" in China exploded 300% . If that is the case, then one can only conclude that the figures touted around earlier on China's poverty was wholly bogus!

[ashi]

As Warren Buffet said "It is only when the tide goes out you find you who has been swimming naked!"

Yep, the tide is waning and looking who are naked

From what I remember, Vina has made these following predictions:

1) China's export is going to be crashed and doomed. No two ways around it. He made that prediction one or two years ago.
2) China's will have a lower GDP growth comparing to India's in the next five years.
3) PLAN's carrier Varyag would not set to sail soon. It doesn't look like there is any engine in there. Looks like a fake. He said that < 4 months back.
4) J-20 is a photoshop product
5) etc etc...

[shyam]

So coming to the point, if China is doing the PPP equivalent of $1.25 per Word Bank figures , as some posters here claimed and if you accept Jayati Ghosh's view of what it measures (as just extreme destitution), it just shows that the people in "Extreme Destitution" in China exploded 300% . If that is the case, then one can only conclude that the figures touted around earlier on China's poverty was wholly bogus!

There could be another reason why uncle Hu raised this limit. With economic crisis slowly unraveling in PRC, the number of destitute people in the country is bound to increase. How do you mask them from public ire? Admit that number has indeed gone up because Hu made a change in measurement.

[vina]

Yep, the tide is waning and looking who are naked

.. Ashi and Zlin..

If you guys can quoted Jayati Ghosh's Article in The Guardian saying "India's Poverty Line Doesn't Measure Up" and then a poster called BlackAdder ask "How does the World Bank's Poverty Line Measure Up?" , Jayati Ghosh was forced to admit, that it measures up even Worse than India's!

And on top of that, you guys just tom tommed saying Hu just adopted "World Bank" measures, when he upped the poverty levels by 92%, and guess what , the "upgraded level", it is POORER than India's measure and you ended up shooting yourself in your collective feet!



Like Buffet said, "Only when the tide goes out, you get to know who was swimming naked" . Your implicit assumption that whatever Hu Jin Toa /China did was better than China was shown up as naked swimming by the tide that went out! . Sorry. China really swept the poverty under the carpet and hid it away under a totalitarian regime. So give it a rest.

As I said, the true poverty level in China is around 350 to 500m. There is huge income and other disparities in China (as in India) , problem is there is no corrective mechanism for that in China. It will keep going until it goes bust, and yeah, long term it will . You dont have to take my word for it , you KNOW it. Just ask the thousands of your privileged country men who have "de risked" themselves by moving a huge part of their capital and had "anchor babies " and passports in places like Vancouver..

[wong]

CNN (hardly pro-China): China Reports Dramatic Drop in Rural Poverty

“Wage growth is the key to understanding this whole development in China,” said Duncan Innes-Ker, Beijing-based senior editor and economist at the Economist Intelligence Unit.

Ker said the dramatic decrease “doesn’t shock him at all” citing the “phenomenal scale of income growth,” whereby average annual incomes are growing at rates of 15-20%.

“Even the poor have been experiencing very strong growth in incomes…in the last five years, the supply of unskilled or semi-skilled labor is starting to fall short of demand, so wages for those labor classes have been growing very fast,” he added.

http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/1 ... l-poverty/

[Rahul M]

The 2100Kcal poverty line is the only Indian official government poverty line. Don't argue with me. As I said, it's a puzzle to me, and probably to every one.

why ? who the great honu are you ? it is a puzzle to you because of your incapacity, both the numbers and methodology are available from official sources.
but you will quote wiki and rediff, two great sources of reliable information.

India's poverty line calculation methodology is one of the most sophisticated one in the world.
read for yourself.
http://planningcommission.nic.in/news/prmar07.pdf

From this data, two different consumption distributions for the year
2004-05 have been obtained. The first one from the consumption data collected using 30-day
recall period (also known as reference period) for all the items (mainly food). The other distribution is obtained
from the consumer expenditure data collected using 365-day recall period for five infrequently
purchased non-food items, namely, clothing, footwear, durable goods, education and institutional
medical expenses and 30-day recall period for the remaining items. These two consumption
distributions have been termed as Uniform Recall Period (URP) consumption distribution and
Mixed Recall Period (MRP) consumption distribution respectively. The Planning Commission, using
the Expert Group methodology has estimated poverty in 2004-05 using both the distributions.

the methodology has recently been expanded and the bar raised even higher according to the recommendations of the suresh tendulkar committee.

it's ok if you are ignorant, that's understandable for a chinese regarding India but do not pretend otherwise.

[Theo_Fidel]

Panda overlords may wish it otherwise but there is definitely a 300-400 million or so destitute class in China as well. Esp. the ones who have no exposure to English. There is, as in India, little hope for this group.

Think of Gansu, population 25 mil. per capita income $4,000 PPP.
Or Sichuan Population 85 Mil with per capita of $5,000 PPP.
or Hunan Population 50 Mil per capita of $4,400 PPP.
or Anhui next to Shanghai with population of 60 Mil & per capita of $5,000 PPP.

And I havn't even touched the poor northern & Western states.

Now consider India's per capita income is $3,900 PPP. You can see that there is horrific poverty that is swept under the carpet. The Panda Ding Dong trolls are not even willing to admit a single poor person lives in Pandaland.

[Singha]

manufacturing activity falls to 32-month low due to global slowdown
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15978863

shaanxi, shanxi, qinghai and gansu might be poorer than the provinces you named...the first two are I believe the coal mining bowl and heavily polluted...the other two adjoin tibet & mongolia and unlikely to be very liveable...the famous delingha missile fields of 2nd arty are in qinghai I think...
http://www.sacu.org/maps/provmap.png

[ashi]

the schlongheads are talking like they own intel or nvidia .. any half educated ee/ comp arch. guy can buy a couple of thousand processors and assemble a supercomp... I mean what do they use these for ? besides h & d slugfests ?

In Race for Fastest Supercomputer, China Outpaces U.S

Supercomputers help build nuclear weapons, design aerospace engines, and produce lifesaving drugs. For years, the U.S. had the best and biggest arsenal. Until China got in the game.