PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

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Hari Seldon
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Hari Seldon »

FP article goes full force on why China and Russia shouldn't form part of BRICS etc. An so we need a new acronym now... Rise of the TIMBIs
Forget the BRICs. The real economies that will shake up the world over the next few decades need a new acronym.
FP focuses laser-like on 2 things - political freedom hence rule-of-law etc and plain hard demographic realities to make its case. Ignores savings levels and ICOR type counter-arguments.

Rah-rah aside, worth a read though I'm sceptical re FP's intentions.

On PRC, specifically, FP cries wolf in these charming words:
In China and Russia, demographic patterns have shifted. Their working-age populations are declining, as are exports, while still-rigid political systems stifle free thought and hamper technical advance.
[...]
It is controversial to suggest that China's enormous growth engine may slow down or stall. Some slowing is inevitable, however. From 1980 to 2010, China's labor force grew an average of 1.7 percent per year, reaping the gains of Mao's pro-natalist policies from the 1960s and 1970s. These gains accounted for about one-fifth of China's annual economic growth in these decades. In the same years, urbanization -- a key source of the increase in productivity of China's labor force, as workers moving from farming to urban manufacturing and services brought huge increases in output per worker -- grew at a rate of 4.3 percent per year, as urbanites went from 20 percent to 45 percent of China's population. Education, yet another key element in increasing productivity, underwent a similarly rapid boom. From 1998 to 2004, total undergraduate enrollment increased from 3.4 million to 13.3 million, an incredible annual increase of 25 percent per year. These trends helped underwrite GDP growth rates of 10 percent per year.
Trends cannot continue at this rate, however, and indeed they have already begun to reverse. In response to the success of the one-child policy adopted in 1978, China's labor-force growth ceased in 2010, and its working-age population will decline by 15 percent by 2040. This shift from 1.7 percent annual labor-force growth to an annual contraction of 0.5 percent will, by itself, knock 2.2 percentage points off China's annual economic growth potential over the next three decades. Moreover, urbanization -- perhaps the main driver of productivity increases -- will decline even more. The U.N. Population Division projects that China's urbanization will continue, rising from 45 percent of China's population today to 67 percent by 2040 as an additional 360 million people will be added to China's cities. As an annual rate of urban growth, though, this is only a 1.5 percent annual increase -- a slowdown of about two-thirds from the 1980-2010 rate.

As for educational growth, that too has clearly reached a limit. Twenty percent of China's college-age youth are in colleges and universities today, a remarkable number for what is still a predominantly agrarian and blue-collar economy. China announced this year that it will limit the growth of doctoral programs. The biggest concern of Chinese college graduates is that their numbers have increased much faster than the economy can employ them, as white-collar jobs are proving extremely hard to find. Thus, all the demographic drivers of China's recent productivity increase will be lacking in the future.

With demographic trends no longer so favorable to growth, China's productivity gains will have to come primarily from increasing capital per worker and technological innovation. China's leaders understand this all too well, but the prognosis is not good. A recent report by IBM on international use of the latest business technologies cited China as 83rd out of 134 countries -- India was 43rd and Brazil 58th. Authoritarian countries have never been flourishing centers for innovation; new ideas come from freethinkers who question authorities and existing ways of doing things -- hardly a welcome sight in China. The treatment of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Liu Xiaobo, as well as other artists, scientists, and journalists, indicates that freedom of expression is not on the agenda for China's leaders.

China faces other obstacles as well. Its reliance on exports to richer countries cannot be sustained in the coming decades as the economies of the United States, Europe, and Japan undergo what will likely be sustained slowdowns due to their aging and stagnating populations. Export growth to Europe has already fallen dramatically. Recognizing these changes, China's central planners are taking steps to shift the economy to a domestic consumption-driven model, but this process is unlikely to sustain double-digit growth because today's Chinese are -- relative to their Western counterparts -- much more vigorous savers than consumers. In addition, the raw materials to fuel China's growth will undoubtedly grow more expensive and increasingly have to be imported.
Oh, read it all. Could point out a 100 things that don;t add up re the rosy pictures painted for the TIMBIs or whatever but still, worth a read, IMHO.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by gakakkad »


Supercomputers help build nuclear weapons, design aerospace engines, and produce lifesaving drugs. For years, the U.S. had the best and biggest arsenal. Until China got in the game.
As per the data , most of the Chinese super computers have been used for "Internet service " .. One can easily surmise what that means . :)

Nookular weapons ? The one you give to Porkistan :evil:

Drug discovery ? How come boor little Yindia with ONLEE 4 supercomps ahead of PRC with 261 ?

http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.ph ... in_type=it
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by ashi »

gakakkad wrote: As per the data , most of the Chinese super computers have been used for "Internet service " .. One can easily surmise what that means . :)

Drug discovery ? How come boor little Yindia with ONLEE 4 supercomps ahead of PRC with 261 ?

http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.ph ... in_type=it
Can you cite the source of the data? And what internet service needs supercomputers?

Are you citing this to say, supercomputer is useless for drug discovery, since India only has 4?
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by PrasadZ »

ashi wrote:Are you citing this to say, supercomputer is useless for drug discovery, since India only has 4?
Was your original cite to suggest that china is discovering drugs?! :rotfl:
Supercomps are tools. Let us know when these achieve something of value
China aint the first to challenge the US in building supercomps, china wont be the last. Not even in asia. Look at japan. Ohhh .. Wait .. You dont get taught japanese success in school, do you?
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by wong »

Supercomputers are used for three main things: 1. create new nuclear design packages, 2. test reliability of old nuclear design packages and 3. breaking codes. The internet server comment is ridiculous, but not surprising for this place.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by vina »

Supercomputers are used for three main things: 1. create new nuclear design packages, 2. test reliability of old nuclear design packages and 3. breaking codes. The internet server comment is ridiculous, but not surprising for this place.
Maybe so in PRC with it's authoritarian one party rule and over militarized society.

In other civilized and normal places, there are tons of other uses for supercomputers . Weather forecasting, numerical simulations of any kind, high end visualization and simulation (eg in drug discovery , like in protein folding), Computational fluid dynamics , Finite element methods (for eg, simulation of a crash test on computer during design stage uses super computer like power..hmm, are there any crash standards at all in China and is testing mandatory, if it aint, maybe it is a good idea to put the super computers you have to use there first before designing nukes), hundreds of other uses that one can think of. True, these applications will not get into "length of schlong" measurement like "Top 10 super computers etc", but yeah, with desktops of today (for eg a quad core i7 would put most cray machines of some 2 decades ago to shame) means that what was "purely super computer" territory some 2 to 3 decades ago is a cinch now, but all the same, the higher end engineering apps still need those machines.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by wong »

^^^^

My comment was not China specific. There's a simple reason all the fastest supercomputers in the US are with the Dept. of Energy (reason 1 and 2) or the National Security Agency (reason 3). When countries brag about their supercomputing prowess, they are really bragging about smaller, more reliable warheads with higher yield or I can read your leader's e-mail. Simple as that. Again, not China specific, applies to all the UN P5.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

so may we know what china has in terms of nuclear warheads and cryptography thats worth bragging about at world level? your Jin SSBNs have not made a single deterrent patrol yet, this around 25 yrs after the Xia ssbn supposedly entered service. is the JL2 ready yet? your DF31 are still not in the kind of high mobility TELARs that Rus has used for decades...

we could go on. but all those supercomps dont seem to be helping so much...perhaps you should consider that in the absence of the right people and setup, all the shiny stuff and lab eqpt are only moderately helpful... 8)

in the kind of civilian applications that Vina mentions, china is not a world power at all. countries like japan, south korea, france, UK, germany are far ahead there...
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »

till a few years back the then most powerful SC in India was used for simulation of high energy physics concepts (note : not related to nuclear energy or weapons)
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by gakakkad »

well ding dongs , 40 out of the 72 listed "chinese" top500 computers do not have any specified application. Or simply internet service..

http://i.top500.org/site/50330

http://i.top500.org/sublist

None of those computers are used for biological sciences , pharmaceuticals , chemistry , aerospace , weather , physics , auto mobile ,CFD , economics or any other field of valuable field of human endeavour . Not even defence.

Unlike some of you here ,I am actually involved in the field of new drug discovery . The people in the process are indispensable,not the toys . If you know a thing about Pharmacology , I all ask you a few question , which you ll not be able to answer even with Googles help .

HP and IBM must be lucky to have customers like you . Because you have bought so many super computers from them .
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by ashi »

deleted.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by wong »

Singha wrote:so may we know what china has in terms of nuclear warheads and cryptography thats worth bragging about at world level? your Jin SSBNs have not made a single deterrent patrol yet, this around 25 yrs after the Xia ssbn supposedly entered service. is the JL2 ready yet? your DF31 are still not in the kind of high mobility TELARs that Rus has used for decades...

we could go on. but all those supercomps dont seem to be helping so much...perhaps you should consider that in the absence of the right people and setup, all the shiny stuff and lab eqpt are only moderately helpful... 8)

in the kind of civilian applications that Vina mentions, china is not a world power at all. countries like japan, south korea, france, UK, germany are far ahead there...
I know the JL2 and DF31 programs are doing awesome and beating all benchmarks. How do I know this?? I know it the same way the CIA does. I merely have to study the performance of the Long March civilian program, which have been going terrific and exceeding all expectations.

As for the Chinese boomer, I know it has a reactor inside which is more than I can say for another program I know. I also know China decided 30 years ago its 2nd strike capability would be in the underground Great Wall and not an extensive fleet of boomers going on patrol. The Chinese studied the Russians experience and decided not to make the same mistake going toe-to-toe underwater with the Americans. I'm sure it was the right choice.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

wong wrote:I merely have to study the performance of the Long March civilian program, which have been going terrific and exceeding all expectations.
Is this the same rocket that veered off sideways a while ago and blew up a small town. Claims of 5000 dead were made at the time. Of course Panda denied even the existence of the rocket. or of the Town. Is this another thing your overlords neglected to mention in your indoctrination program. That alone should be enough to make you shut your mouth for a lifetime.

Wasn't there another failure in the news a few months back?

Some expectations indeed. Bitter tears eater.

Added.....
Ahh! There's even a video now. Back then all we got were hints and one liners. Listen to the national anthem is the rocket goes walk about. Can't find it in my heart to laugh even.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by ashi »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
wong wrote:I merely have to study the performance of the Long March civilian program, which have been going terrific and exceeding all expectations.
Is this the same rocket that veered off sideways a while ago and blew up a small town. Claims of 5000 dead were made at the time. Of course Panda denied even the existence of the rocket. or of the Town. Is this another thing your overlords neglected to mention in your indoctrination program. That alone should be enough to make you shut your mouth for a lifetime.

Wasn't there another failure in the news a few months back?

Some expectations indeed. Bitter tears eater.

Added.....
Ahh! There's even a video now. Back then all we got were hints and one liners. Listen to the national anthem is the rocket goes walk about. Can't find it in my heart to laugh even.
What has a failure in the past proved? Which top countries in aerospace doesn't have casualties and failures? China is one of the only three countries that has the capability to sent a man to the space, and to build a space station. That alone should be enough for me to open my mouth.

Maybe when India is capable of doing those, you are in a better position to mock. That will be in at least another decade or more.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Suraj »

ashi wrote:What has a failure in the past proved? Which top countries in aerospace doesn't have casualties and failures? China is one of the only three countries that has the capability to sent a man to the space, and to build a space station. That alone should be enough for me to open my mouth.
Ah, but Theo isn't mocking failure. He (and quite a few others here, including me) are struck by how far the CPC goes to deceive, obfuscate, lie, foster paranoia and manipulate the population under its control. In its haste to 'save face' and hide blemishes, it goes to such absurd lengths that it becomes a caricature devoid of any notion of irony, and often a source of mirth, to external parties like us. To some, ridiculousness taken to extremes becomes so much the norm that it doesn't strike you anymore, but it still does to us.

There's a long 10+ year history on this forum of assorted Chinese posters coming here and posting something superficially notable. Praise and pats on China's back are expected. Instead the item gets dissected critically. Flaws are found. Often the stentorian CPC approach is mocked. You want unquestioning praise ? Post on a Xinhua blog or a forum run by your taller than the tallest mountain/deeper than the deepest ocean friends to India's west :lol:

Do you not read the other threads ? We rip apart our own practices, systems and administration liberally. What makes you think we'd treat any news from China with kid gloves ? We damn well will mock any piece of news from PRC that's worth being mocked.

The next time you post something here and respond to critiques about it by stating that we're not in a position to respond to the topic in question in a manner you consider unfit, will be the last time you post on this forum.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by gakakkad »

Weren't we discussing about the Chinese Super-dupe-r compooters ?

, why do you use dozens of such power computers (made by IBM , USA) for internet service ?

http://i.top500.org/site/50330

http://www.top500.org/list/2011/11/200

Most of the Chinese computers have been listed as Web company or Internet service .

If an Arab sheikh buy his spoilt brat a super computer for his 16 th birth day (and that too a top 500 one) , that does not made him any smarter . I have worked on the neuroscience of hippocampus and its implications on memory in a top US insti , a couple of years ago . That insti did have a "super computer" . But surely not the top 500 type .

I place these computers in the same category as empty cities , bridges just built for H&D , and gigantic malls with 99% empty shops.

I don't know why CCP has this sexual narcissism (getting aroused by looking oneself in the mirror). Perhaps they get kicks by looking at these "statistics" .

BTW , India does have human space-flight capability . If the GOI gives the permission , it could take more like 10 months than 10 years. The project was supposed to have been sanction in 09 . But sadly GOI thinks otherwise . Though it does prove ,that China is far more willing to undertake these H&D stuff than India. China's GDP in 02 was 1 trillion . (when it undertook its human spaceflight). Indian GDP has already reached 2 trillion , and yet the GOI has not sanctioned the project. So it proves that CCP spends greater fraction of GDP on these H&D projects than India . It is not about capability . It is about priority .
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

China's GDP in 02 was 1 trillion . (when it undertook its human spaceflight). Indian GDP has already reached 2 trillion , and yet the GOI has not sanctioned the project.
Good point Kakkad ji and i have mentioned this before too. H & D should be gauged from the template of China 2003 and India 2010. China had nuclear submarines, spoke of G2 then, sent men to space and had all the pretensions of a superior power if not a super power. It's per cap income was lesser than India in 2010 and yet even Western media talked about it in awe. They bullied in Tibet, Myanmar, Nepal, Vietnam and more. Compare China's moon mission to that of India's..one did quality science the other released 2 pictures of lousy resolution one of which had a extra crater prompting doubts about doctoring..
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by sha »

gakakkad wrote: Indian GDP has already reached 2 trillion , and yet the GOI has not sanctioned the project. So it proves that CCP spends greater fraction of GDP on these H&D projects than India . It is not about capability . It is about priority .
Just checked India's GDP(B$) .

Year GDP(FC) GDP(MP)
2009-2010 13791.9 14746.8
2010-2011 16729.1 18049.1
*1$=45.16Ruppes

The growth rate was very impressive, but the whole GDP didn't reach 2 T$ yet. Maybe year you will have to see that happen next year. However, the Rupee has been depreciated against the US Dollar so badly, it hard to tell.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by gakakkad »

100b this way or that way, hardly makes any difference for the point I wanted to make. by the end of this fiscal (march) it ll be close to 2. Presently Indian GDP is 5 uears or so behind that of PRC. But India tends to spend far less on all these "prestige" projects that China splurged on at comparable levels of GDP .
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by VikramS »

Suraj:

Very well said.

These CCP drones are so used to towing the party line, that they simply cannot comprehend any criticism. They have been fed all this rah-rah about China this, China that; and they expect the rest of the world to believe it without questioning it.

I remember wong's comments about Indian capitulation, where he had to go down to size of condoms, to justify his bruised ego. Perhaps he did not realize that he was on a sticky wicket when it comes to anatomical lengths; maybe CCP also has a propaganda arm about ding-dongs.

What I find truly amazing, is that these drones live outside PRC, but still parrot the PRC line. You would expect some retrospection, but it seems that the lights of Shangai have dulled their ability to think independently.

And they can never understand the scrutiny they get here. Perhaps as you mentioned, they have not read anything else here on BR, and the 10x scrutiny Indian actions get here.

Very likely all those super-duper computers are used to implement the Great Chinese Firewall and monitor all the traffic so it can be censored. No wonder they are owned by internet companies. I am sure people are finding ways to get around the censorship and it is a cat and mouse battle which goes on. You need an immense amount of computation power to find patterns in such a vast amount of data; massive neural nets, machine learning algorithms, all churning non-stop.

All that being said, there is no reason not to appreciate what the Chinese have achieved; more importantly it is critical to understand the errors they have made and not to repeat them.

In my view, it is not the success of PRC which scares me; it is the consequences of what happens when the sheen wears of. BTW, I am not alone. It seems that among the neo-rich PRC elite, finding permanent residence in a Western country is the latest task. They know that their wealth can be taken away at the whim of the CCP, and want to diversify and have an escape plan.

No wonder the real-estate market in Vancouver is booming as the Chinese scoop up anything with a door. The US also is thinking of having a program where foreigners who buy homes can become permanent residents. It will be interesting to see how the Chinese elite respond to that.

If the PRC elite are themselves so concerned about how the CCP-PLA will handle adversity; other nations have a even greater worry. After all, the PLA continues to supply nukes to the TSP knowing very well the danger it poses.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Klaus »

Heavy Beijing smog causes flight cancellations and delays.
Highways across the northern provinces of Shandong and Hebei were also closed.

In Beijing, the fog has been made worse by pollution. Readings by the U.S. Embassy, which measures inhalable particles of 2.5 microns, have described the pollution for days as "hazardous".

On Sunday night, the U.S. Embassy's index topped its ceiling of 500, and it was 356 on Monday afternoon, a reading that was still considered "dangerous".

The Beijing environmental bureau, however, said the air was affected by only "light pollution" during the day. :shock:

Chinese environmental officials have come under criticism in media reports and on microblogs for reporting only measurements of much larger particles in the air. :mrgreen:

Du Shaozhong, a deputy head of the bureau, warned on his microblog that residents should take precautions if pollution rises to "medium" levels, as it has during the night, when the government's central heating furnaces pour smoke into the air.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

I had posted on this earlier. the US embassy posting its pollution reading from the roof has been termed by a foreign ministry spokesman as "unwarranted interference in china's internal affairs"
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by wong »

Twenty, 30 year old videos?? Getting desperate. Doesn't change my point that JL2 and DF31 programs are doing great. That you can even deny the success of the Long March program during the last 10 years means you have enormous blinders on.
Theo_Fidel wrote:
wong wrote:I merely have to study the performance of the Long March civilian program, which have been going terrific and exceeding all expectations.
Is this the same rocket that veered off sideways a while ago and blew up a small town. Claims of 5000 dead were made at the time. Of course Panda denied even the existence of the rocket. or of the Town. Is this another thing your overlords neglected to mention in your indoctrination program. That alone should be enough to make you shut your mouth for a lifetime.

Wasn't there another failure in the news a few months back?

Some expectations indeed. Bitter tears eater.

Added.....
Ahh! There's even a video now. Back then all we got were hints and one liners. Listen to the national anthem is the rocket goes walk about. Can't find it in my heart to laugh even.

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by VikramS »

wong:

That accident is from 1996 not exactly 30 years ago.

There is absolutely no doubt what the Chinese have achieved is truly remarkable. However everything has a cost.

Indians tend to do too much cost-benefit analysis. It is imposed by the system where even poor farmers have the political power to stop the flag-ship plant of Tata's easily the most loved and respected private conglomerate in India. We similarly do an analysis of what China is doing and find a lot of holes.

I think that perplexes the Chinese who expect the rest of the world to fall in line. There is an article in Xinhua today saying that India has an inferiority complex :rotfl: because it too is trying to define a role in Asia instead of bowing to the PRC!
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/i ... 266603.htm
(The article has been deleted; even the official mouth-piece can not escape censorship)
Google Cache version. It is making fun of Jaswant Singh's views
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... 19/English

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

It seems even the ruling class has drunk too much KoolAid and can not see the obvious. They see the shiny lights of Shangai and then compare them the crowded streets of Mumbai and feel great. However they are unable to reconcile with why India is not bowing to them.

You see, we too have seen a lot; we know what is worth bowing to and what is not. The present day China is not worth bowing to. There is a lot of suffering and pain behind the glitter; and a lot of hidden agnst which will eventually find a way to vent. There is a lot to be learnt. But China's boorish behavior will never earn respect; it might raise fears.

What I am again worried is that when the going gets tough, the PLA-CCP may try to teach India a lesson again, using the whores in TSP as a vital tool. I do not want to imagine how that will play out but I do hope that it never reaches that point.
Last edited by VikramS on 07 Dec 2011 03:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by disha »

What happened? Total silence from the drones? Maybe they are sampling the beijing air and writing stories about how mild or medium fog it is. Maybe their brains are all fogged up after sampling the "Beijing air"., it happens to me to when some air wafts from 3 hour old baby diaper.

What is the economic cost of "Beijing air'? Here are the news for some drone to calculate:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_n ... lays-.html

From the above:



“Suffocating smog has been covering Beijing like a greasy quilt recently," the China Daily editorialized recently. “All of the residents in the city are aware of the poor air quality, so it does not make sense to conceal it for fear of criticism.”

On Friday, the Environmental Protection Bureau formally rejected a Beijing resident’s petition to publish data on fine particulate matter, declaring it was not a criterion specified in the 1996 government guidelines for air quality.
It seems to be so severe that the very pretense of propaganda has to be dropped. Worse, which superpower sticks with "1996 government guidelines" for air quality?
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by zlin »

Merck & Co to invest $1.5 bln for R&D in China
* Beijing facility to employ 600 scientists

* R&D to extend from drug discovery to clinical trials

* Looking for partnerships with biotechs, academic labs

By Don Durfee

BEIJING, Dec 6 (Reuters) - Merck & Co Inc will establish a new Asian R&D headquarters in Beijing and commit $1.5 billion to research and development in China over the next five years.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Sri »

^^ zlin. wow!!! Great news!!! I am very happy for you. Good going China. Bravo!!!
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by vina »

Yawn.. China warns of severe challenges to exports . Not surprising huh, with US, EU and Japan out and down, where is the demand gonna come from, not from the Chinese consumers!

So there you are.. Bad Boyz, Bad Boyz, watcha gonna do? Watcha gonna do when they come for you! If Shenzen /Pearl River shutters down, watch for the ripple to cascade through China.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by niran »

vina wrote:Yawn.. China warns of severe challenges to exports . Not surprising huh, with US, EU and Japan out and down, where is the demand gonna come from, not from the Chinese consumers!

So there you are.. Bad Boyz, Bad Boyz, watcha gonna do? Watcha gonna do when they come for you! If Shenzen /Pearl River shutters down, watch for the ripple to cascade through China.
Chinese currently have suddenly remembered ancient biladelhood ties around SE Asian
we eat noodre soup
you eat noodre soup
we are same, same, long ago youl King send oul Empelol tlibute buy oul goods it is chip chip than
yamelikan and nipponese, they bad people.
PS before some one says Emperor was paid tribute so it is Chinese territory in olden days China
had a rule that you got to pay tribute to sell your goods in China so to facilitate their traders subject(which all Dharmic Kings do/did) silver and gold in shape of trees were paid. it has got nothing to do with what chinese claim about Tibet or Aksaichin or Arunanchal
Singha
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

> China warns of severe challenges to exports .

this calls more pump prime construction projects!
ashi
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by ashi »

vina wrote:Yawn.. China warns of severe challenges to exports . Not surprising huh, with US, EU and Japan out and down, where is the demand gonna come from, not from the Chinese consumers!

So there you are.. Bad Boyz, Bad Boyz, watcha gonna do? Watcha gonna do when they come for you! If Shenzen /Pearl River shutters down, watch for the ripple to cascade through China.
Psst... How was your two year old bet that India was going to outgrow China in the next five years? Didn't happen last year. Not going to happen this year. Very unlikely to happen next year when India is just entering a stagflation period.

How China's Economy Keeps Growing
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/busin ... e.html?hpw

Entrepreneurs Rival in China: The State

excerpt:

SHANGHAI — It was the kind of entrepreneurial breakthrough that China counts on to make it a global leader in innovation.

This is the third in a series of articles examining China’s system of government-managed capitalism and the potential weaknesses that could threaten the nation’s remarkable economic growth.

Cathay Industrial Biotech, a private company here, developed a way to ferment hydrocarbons in industrial vats and turn them into advanced nylon ingredients for use in lubricants, diabetes drugs and other 21st-century marvels.

The patents Cathay won prompted Dupont, a leading global producer of nylon, to become one of Cathay’s biggest customers. And the $120 million that Goldman Sachs and other backers have pumped into Cathay in recent years primed investors in China and abroad to eagerly await a public stock offering that had been planned for earlier this year.

They’re still waiting.

According to Cathay, a factory manager stole its secrets and started a rival company that has begun selling a suspiciously similar ingredient, undermining Cathay’s profits. Instead of planning to go public, Cathay is now struggling to stay in business.

In this counterfeit-friendly nation, employees run off with manufacturing designs almost daily. But according to Cathay, this was copying with a special twist: the new competitor, Hilead Biotech, is backed by the Chinese government.

Court documents show that Hilead was set up with the help of the state-run Chinese Academy of Sciences. And because the project fit national and local government policy goals, Hilead received a $300 million loan from the national government’s China Development Bank. The loan came after the company won the approval of the party secretary of Shandong Province, one of the country’s highest-ranking public officials.

“We created a great product and they stole it,” Liu Xiucai, Cathay’s 54-year-old founder and chief executive, said in an interview in his office. :rotfl:
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by niran »

how about this

prepare to buy Chinese if the site is blocked the read below
BEIJING : China will seek to boost exports to emerging economies next year in the face of "severe challenges" caused by downturns in Europe and the United States, a senior official said Wednesday.

To cushion the impact on exports -- a major engine of growth -- Beijing will target developing countries that are growing strongly, said Wang Shouwen, director of the commerce ministry's foreign trade department.

"Next year I think that we will face severe challenges in our exports and imports," Wang told reporters at the release of a white paper on foreign trade marking the 10th anniversary of China joining the World Trade Organization.

"However, some developing and emerging economies are enjoying sound economic performances so we will attach more importance to exports to these countries."

Wang did not name specific countries but said Latin America and the Asian region would grow next year and "have demand" for Chinese exports.

Leading Chinese officials have painted a gloomy picture for the country's exports, warning that the eurozone debt crisis and sluggish recovery in the United States threatened the world's second largest economy.

Vice Premier Wang Qishan, China's top finance official, at the weekend urged companies to help guarantee a "stable increase" in exports amid slowing external demand.

China's exports rose 15.9 percent year on year to $157.49 billion in October, but the total was down from $169.7 billion in September, due to falling demand caused by the economic woes in Europe and the United States.

Imports expanded 28.7 percent to $140.46 billion in October, lower than the $155.2 billion recorded a month earlier.

Shipments to the European Union -- China's biggest trade partner -- fell to $28.74 billion in October from $31.61 billion in September.

Exports to the United States shrank to $28.60 billion in October from $30.11 billion in the previous month.

Shipments to developing economies such as India and Brazil fell by a lesser amount, though they accounted for a much smaller portion of the total exports.
mind you it is official Chinese yak yak not made up facts or bets.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by gakakkad »

India's inflation rate is down to 6% . Interest rates will come down soon and rapid growth will resume . There is no stagflation .
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by wong »

I know Indians posted this as yet another China bashing article, but let us scratch the surface a little bit more beyond the usual nytimes China bashing (that obviously sells readership here in the states).

1. Could Mr. Liu, a mere Sandoz and UWisconsin Milwaukee PhD (Everybody else goes to Madison) have gotten venture funding anywhere else in the world besides China for a biofermentation process the west largely abandoned ??? +1 China

2. I thought the Chinese state only invested in ghost cities and high speed trains that are empty (unless it crashes, then the train is full) ?? What's it doing investing in biotech?? +1 China

3. Unlike the west with private profit and public losses, China is Socialist and doesn't go for that nonsense. China doesn't fund drug research with taxpayer money only for private citizens to commercialize & profit. I'm not saying this way is better, but it's certainly more balanced and fair. +1 China

4. I thought there's no innovation in China?? Only Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V ?? There goes that theory. +1 China

5. Mr. Liu is now a multi-millionaire although he's from a poor province and a poor family (caste). His riches are all due to his smarts and his hard work. Talk about great social mobility. What would have happened if he was born in India?? +1 China

6. The role of any good manager is to retain and develop their most valuable employees. Paying them 50% less than market isn't a good strategy. They will walk and compete with you. There goes the theory China is a country of worker slaves. +1 China

I could keep going, but thanks for posting the great article (if one just scratches the surface of lazy journalism) and does their own independent thinking.




Singha wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/busin ... e.html?hpw

Entrepreneurs Rival in China: The State

excerpt:

SHANGHAI — It was the kind of entrepreneurial breakthrough that China counts on to make it a global leader in innovation.

This is the third in a series of articles examining China’s system of government-managed capitalism and the potential weaknesses that could threaten the nation’s remarkable economic growth.

Cathay Industrial Biotech, a private company here, developed a way to ferment hydrocarbons in industrial vats and turn them into advanced nylon ingredients for use in lubricants, diabetes drugs and other 21st-century marvels.

The patents Cathay won prompted Dupont, a leading global producer of nylon, to become one of Cathay’s biggest customers. And the $120 million that Goldman Sachs and other backers have pumped into Cathay in recent years primed investors in China and abroad to eagerly await a public stock offering that had been planned for earlier this year.

They’re still waiting.

According to Cathay, a factory manager stole its secrets and started a rival company that has begun selling a suspiciously similar ingredient, undermining Cathay’s profits. Instead of planning to go public, Cathay is now struggling to stay in business.

In this counterfeit-friendly nation, employees run off with manufacturing designs almost daily. But according to Cathay, this was copying with a special twist: the new competitor, Hilead Biotech, is backed by the Chinese government.

Court documents show that Hilead was set up with the help of the state-run Chinese Academy of Sciences. And because the project fit national and local government policy goals, Hilead received a $300 million loan from the national government’s China Development Bank. The loan came after the company won the approval of the party secretary of Shandong Province, one of the country’s highest-ranking public officials.

“We created a great product and they stole it,” Liu Xiucai, Cathay’s 54-year-old founder and chief executive, said in an interview in his office. :rotfl:
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by RamaY »

wong wrote:I know Indians posted this as yet another China bashing article, but let us scratch the surface a little bit more beyond the usual nytimes China bashing (that obviously sells readership here in the states).

1. Could Mr. Liu, a mere Sandoz and UWisconsin Milwaukee PhD (Everybody else goes to Madison) have gotten venture funding anywhere else in the world besides China for a biofermentation process the west largely abandoned ??? +1 China

2. I thought the Chinese state only invested in ghost cities and high speed trains that are empty (unless it crashes, then the train is full) ?? What's it doing investing in biotech?? +1 China

3. Unlike the west with private profit and public losses, China is Socialist and doesn't go for that nonsense. China doesn't fund drug research with taxpayer money only for private citizens to commercialize & profit. I'm not saying this way is better, but it's certainly more balanced and fair. +1 China

4. I thought there's no innovation in China?? Only Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V ?? There goes that theory. +1 China

5. Mr. Liu is now a multi-millionaire although he's from a poor province and a poor family (caste). His riches are all due to his smarts and his hard work. Talk about great social mobility. What would have happened if he was born in India?? +1 China

6. The role of any good manager is to retain and develop their most valuable employees. Paying them 50% less than market isn't a good strategy. They will walk and compete with you. There goes the theory China is a country of worker slaves. +1 China

I could keep going, but thanks for posting the great article (if one just scratches the surface of lazy journalism) and does their own independent thinking.
You did so much scratching now I got rashes all over my skin.

1. Independent Thinking - Is this allowed in communist China?
2. China +6trillion India -8 trillion (the two trillion are taken by China communist party)
3. Mr. Liu didn't get VC funding, could be to do with the shallowness of his business plan? I am glad China is the final hope for such business plans.
4. Nope. Those high-speed trians were never populated, even when they were buried within hours of the accident.
5. There is one more thing in China. It is Ctrl+S for stealing.
6. China doesn't have private profit and public losses. That is why there are so few billionaires and so many loss making banks in China.
7. Mr. Liu would never get his VC funding in India unless his business plan and idea are truly worthy of that investment. Do you have low/high castes in China too? So the first "C" in CPC represents Caste(ist) party of China? Which caste is in power now?
8. I know there are no worker slaves in China. That is why they implemented the region based passport/visa system.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by VikramS »

What I find funny is the name Hilead.

There is a US Biotech named Gilead. The CCP decides to be one-up and names their shop Hilead, since H follows G.

It could also be read as Hi-Lead, which might be closer to the truth.

wong: UW-Milwaukee is a big enough campus in its own right. BTW, why do you defend the CCP so much. It is one thing to be proud of being Chinese and Chinese people; but why defend the CCP even when it indulges in such a blatant theft. We have had many proud posters from China before, but your single-minded devotion to the CCP is rather unique.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by krisna »

Chinese Crisis Gets Priced Into Markets: The Ticker
In the latest Bloomberg Global Poll, 61 percent of them predicted China will face a banking crisis within the next five years. That hardly means markets are betting on a meltdown. It does, however, suggest a level of negativity we haven't seen in many years. Officials in Beijing would be wise to take the hint.
The record 17.6 trillion-yuan ($2.8 trillion) lending boom unleashed by Premier Wen Jiabao in 2009-2010 amid global turmoil is coming back to haunt China. Recent data on manufacturing, home sales and renewed tightening in credit markets raises the stakes and ups the odds of bad-debt crisis.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by krisna »

China Forgets Inflation and Goes for Growth
China has just pulled off one big U-turn. After months of battling inflation, the government in Beijing has decided its new priority is faltering economic growth. The central bank announced on Nov. 30 it would cut reserve requirements for banks, freeing up 350 billion yuan ($55 billion) to lend in the coming months. “This is a big signal—a very public shift for Beijing,” says Stephen Green, regional head of research for Greater China at Standard Chartered Bank. He predicts four more reserve requirement cuts next year, while both Goldman Sachs (GS) and HSBC (HBC) have said interest rate cuts could follow.
Since summer’s end, inflation has started to drop, and the euro crisis has pushed Europe—China’s largest overseas market for toys, textiles, machinery, and electronics—closer to outright recession. In October, European orders for Chinese goods fell 22 percent from September, according to China Customs. “The euro zone is looking more perilous by the day, and [the Chinese] know how exposed they are to jolts in global growth,” says Alistair Thornton, a China economist with IHS Global Insight (IHS). On Dec. 1, Beijing announced the first contraction since 2009 of its manufacturing sector, which officially makes up about 50 percent of gross domestic product.

China’s real estate sector is starting to fall back to earth, too, spurring fears of a knock-on effect for steel and other construction-related industries. Steel profits dropped 82.6 percent in October from the month before, according to the China Iron & Steel Assn. Real estate prices fell for the third consecutive month in November in China’s 10 biggest cities as well as in smaller locales. Property prices are reaching a “turning point” as developers face tighter credit conditions, the central bank warned on its website on Dec. 2. “The bigger concern that banks and companies have is whether a 20 percent fall in home prices might induce panic selling,” it said in its statement.
Releasing billions of dollars of new loans to build more housing, as well as bridges, roads, and subways, will likely complicate any effort to clean up problems generated by the last splurge. Powered by double-digit annual growth in lending, China pumped up investment in infrastructure and factories 24 percent to 30 percent a year for the last three years. The country thus managed to avoid the slowdown that plagued most of the world.
Local government loans are the largest risk” facing China’s economy, he says. “If the economy suffers a serious downturn, the banks are in deep trouble.” As much as 30 percent of China’s total loans could go sour, Fitch Ratings predicted in April.
Today Chinese are encouraged to save instead of consume. As a result, personal consumption’s share of GDP has actually shrunk since the 1980s and is still less than 40 percent.

Now with another crisis at hand it’s simpler to fall back on the tried and true methods of nurturing growth, whatever their risks. Arthur Kroeber, managing director of Beijing-based economic analysis firm Gavekal-Dragonomics points out that as a new leadership prepares to take charge next fall, most officials are loath to rock the boat.
wonder what will happen to the princelings when they take over reins in < 2 years time.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by g.sarkar »

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 08,00.html
12/08/2011
The Global Crisis Reaches China
Unrest Spreads as Growth Stalls
By Wieland Wagner
"China's leaders are currently contending with declining demand, rising debt and a real estate bubble. Some factories are laying off workers, suffering financial losses or even closing as orders from crisis-plagued Europe dry up. The economic strains are frustrating workers and consumers in the country, threatening the political establishment and Beijing's economic miracle.
A police special forces unit appears suddenly. One moment, a worker named Liu* is marching back and forth in front of city hall in Dongguan, China, with about 300 colleagues from the bankrupt factory Bill Electronic. "Give us back the money from our blood and sweat!" they chant.
The next moment, their shouts turn to screams as a few hundred uniformed police with helmets, shields and batons, along with numerous plainclothes security forces, leap out of olive green police vans. The demonstration leaders, including Liu, are rounded up on the side of the street by police dogs. Within just a few minutes' time, the communist authorities have successfully suffocated the protest.
The men and women, most of them young adults, are packed into yellow buses and hauled back to their factory, where the government exerts massive pressure: By afternoon, they must consent to make do with 60 percent of the wages they are owed by the employment office. Anyone who refuses, officials warn, will receive nothing at all.
The new global crisis has reached China. Debt problems in Europe, the country's most important trading partner, are starting to dim prospects here in the nation that has effectively become the world's factory, as well. The unstable United States economy and threat of a trade war between the two superpowers make the situation even more uncertain. As the US presidential election campaign starts too heat up, American politicians are vying to outdo one another in protectionist declarations directed toward their communist rival.
This October was the third straight month Chinese exports decreased. Along with it, the hopes of German manufacturers that Asia's growth market might help lift them out of the global crisis as it did in 2008 are also evaporating. This time China faces enormous challenges of its own -- a real estate market bubble and local government debt -- that could even pose a risk to the global economy.
China's leaders are currently contending with declining demand, rising debt and a real estate bubble. Some factories are laying off workers, suffering financial losses or even closing as orders from crisis-plagued Europe dry up. The economic strains are frustrating workers and consumers in the country, threatening the political establishment and Beijing's economic miracle.
A police special forces unit appears suddenly. One moment, a worker named Liu* is marching back and forth in front of city hall in Dongguan, China, with about 300 colleagues from the bankrupt factory Bill Electronic. "Give us back the money from our blood and sweat!" they chant.
The next moment, their shouts turn to screams as a few hundred uniformed police with helmets, shields and batons, along with numerous plainclothes security forces, leap out of olive green police vans. The demonstration leaders, including Liu, are rounded up on the side of the street by police dogs. Within just a few minutes' time, the communist authorities have successfully suffocated the protest.
The men and women, most of them young adults, are packed into yellow buses and hauled back to their factory, where the government exerts massive pressure: By afternoon, they must consent to make do with 60 percent of the wages they are owed by the employment office. Anyone who refuses, officials warn, will receive nothing at all.
The new global crisis has reached China. Debt problems in Europe, the country's most important trading partner, are starting to dim prospects here in the nation that has effectively become the world's factory, as well. The unstable United States economy and threat of a trade war between the two superpowers make the situation even more uncertain. As the US presidential election campaign starts too heat up, American politicians are vying to outdo one another in protectionist declarations directed toward their communist rival.
This October was the third straight month Chinese exports decreased. Along with it, the hopes of German manufacturers that Asia's growth market might help lift them out of the global crisis as it did in 2008 are also evaporating. This time China faces enormous challenges of its own -- a real estate market bubble and local government debt -- that could even pose a risk to the global economy......."
Gautam
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