Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 29 Dec 2013 10:46

Wow This has fantastic potential even for commercial ops

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Dec 2013 12:45

Euro tank market has collapsed. Armour forces are hugely scaled back in nato.
so for mtu, a 700 tank engine deal be a big deal imho. Its a two decade revenue stream

member_25400 · Post by **member_25400** » 29 Dec 2013 14:20

vasu raya wrote:, the lower end can be met by a turbine and all surges by a 1000hp diesel,
Ultimately use of turbines may cause precision engineering to trickle down the auto industry.

Not much call for turbine engines in auto industry. Trend is towards hybrid engines.

In naval parlance, there are CODOG* (combined diesel or gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_diesel_or_gas ). Here diesel is always used for cruise speeds and turbines for surge power, (you have it reversed). This is because turbines eat up almost as much fuel on idle as on load, making them fuel hungry for idling.
Witness Abrams tank and the pro-active industry proposal to re-engine it with diesel engines (ref: http://www.g2mil.com/abramsdiesel.htm )

Turbines have excellent acceleration and are lightweight/compact for delivered power. While there is a turbine sopol up time, there is also a time for a diesel to respond to acceleration or for a turbocharger to respond. (Common rail engines and some superchargers dont depend on engine running speed to power turbochargers). While turbines have more flexible fuel options, military logistics/need to supply trucks jeeps etc tend to make this moot.

Someone asked why there are no combined cycle gas turbines to power mobile systems. The cost of equipment and the weight space involved are major inhibitors. Also CCGT need bulky cooling systems and have to control steam inlet temperature / pressure for optimum efficiency. For mobile systems, it isnt about fuel efficiency as about responsiveness to power/load changes. Hybrid systems help in this regard. Also run the gas turbine in the power station and transmit power / store in a battery in the vehicle. Even in a power station, gas turbines may be decoupled and run for more load responsiveness.

Plus supply of water / corrosive steam etc are also challenges, steam systems are typically not closed loop. (locomotives had watering stations in a previous century)

While the earliest vehicles were steam powered, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car ), you don't see many on the road nowadays

.

---

* (Naval engines include steam, COGOG, CODOG, Integrated, CODAG, COGAS etc - refer wikipedia.)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2013 16:00

Merkava Mk4M with armor modules removed for powerpack maintnance ( via Damian )

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2013 02:28

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=20679 Over the years, excellent designs like the Arjun tank have failed the transition from design into product. This is because India's archaic defence production policies make the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) responsible for designing equipment, with production responsibility then passing onto a network of eight defence public sector undertakings (DPSUs) and 39 ordnance factories (OFs) with long reputations for sloppy production. Having played little role in design, the manufacturing agencies struggle to produce the system.

contrastingly:

Firstly, HAL has played a major role both in designing the Tejas and in building prototypes for the flight-test programme. Secondly, HAL has brought a radically new approach to Tejas production, adopting global aerospace manufacturing standards and an unprecedented approach to quality control.

does the lesson here point to involvment of production engineering and manufacturing/assembly line to participate in r&d at an advanced state? i think it is.. it is better to involve them as stakeholders, and ask them to correct their process. perhaps HAL can help in the learning process transition, which may be similar.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 30 Dec 2013 08:15

Since CCGT is not going to be compact, as we get into bigger GTs for efficiency reasons, maybe CCGT makes sense for the KMGT project

Conventional turbo diesel can be built by private sector or BEML with DRDO focusing on the fancy OPOC/HyperBar design in a diesel electric config

The OPOC diesel design may matter to DRDO since we will be looking for engine replacements on LUH and Dhruv

GTRE with a turboprop replacement for the PC7 trainer

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Dec 2013 20:52

So 1000 T-72s to be upgraded.. still in progress... (yawn)

Rajya Sabha
ANSWERED ON 08.05.2013

Question: Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to satate :-

(a) the status of purchase plan for Thermal Imager Fire Control System (TIFCS) and Thermal Imager Stand Alone System (TISAS); and

(b) the details of the number of TIFCS and TISAS Government proposes to import

Answer: Minister of Defence (Shri A.K. Antony)

(a) The proposal for procurement of Thermal Imager Fire Control System (TIFCS) is at the contract negotiations stage whereas procurement action in respect of Thermal Imager Stand Alone System (TISAS) under two contracts signed in 2003 and 2010 has been completed.

(b) 1000 TIFCS are proposed to be imported while 600 TISAS have been imported.

member_28041 · Post by **member_28041** » 13 Jan 2014 11:39

Philip wrote:The long hard crawl to self-sufficiency.Snail's progress despite many indigenous programmes finally arriving.What really ails our DPSUs? Lack of funds,lack of will/interest,lack of human resources?
NEW DELHI:The story of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank is even worse. First sanctioned in May 1974, 55% of the tank is still made of imported parts.

We are already using a tank which is much much inferior than Arjun and which is 100% imported very happily. So why complain?Even after all this,is this working satisfactorly?Nop.

Why?Because the Russians cheated us by refusing the full TOT which was promised.
So what are we doing now? Running after the same poor,ailing,lack of will/interested DPSU for porting the Arjun's Armor,Gun Barrel, Ballistic computer etc to T-90

.
A world class tank made my our poor,ailing DPSU is given order in lots of 100's while an inferior Tin can is given orders in 1000's in bulk. Strange world indeed.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Jan 2014 21:53

^^^ Before I read thru the farticle i saw it was penned by the legendary Ra$at P@n&it, Aktoo... all this Lifafa journalism stinks... some of the numbers on indigenous content is not bad... bu the narrative stinks... some more patriotic Scribe would have turned the whole thing around and tomtommed the extent of indigenisation but then that does not sell with DDM.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 14 Jan 2014 01:10

Yup, agreed. I was so frustrated with Mr. Pandit's farticles that I left a comment in his previous article.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jan 2014 22:00

Gentlemen, ORBWT gurus, has anyone heard about 34th Armoured Div in IA... I only knew about three a d i recently read about a 34th Armoured div in Jaipur... Will look for the link and post, in the meantime any info on the Armored div of IA would be appreciated...

Maybe its time for Rohit to post an article on IA's Armoured Divs like. His famous article on Arty Divs.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 22 Jan 2014 23:27

Finland Buys One Hundred Tanks from the Netherlands - atlanticcouncil.org

Finland and the Netherlands have agreed to transfer most of the remaining stock of Dutch Leopard 2A6 Main Battle Tanks (MBT) to Finland over a period of four years, for amount around €200 million. Defence Minister Carl Haglund has approved the acquisition of last thursday. Under the agreement Finland will procure 100 Leopard 2A6 tanks from the with the Netherlands, along with logistics package and spare parts sustaining 10 years of operations. The agreement is expected to be signed by on 20 January in the Netherlands by Haglund and his Dutch counterpart, Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert. Deliveries will commence in 2015 and continue through 2019. . . .

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 23 Jan 2014 10:33

Russian Tank Biathlon

We shall send couple of Arjuns, it will be interesting to watch.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 23 Jan 2014 21:47

defenceforumindia.com

nash · Post by **nash** » 23 Jan 2014 21:59

this beast is becoming more awesome in every passing day.... hope and wish we can see this warrior in IA in good numbers(500-700 atleast)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jan 2014 00:07

IMO, the large block to the left is also ERA..not a radar etc. Hope the Army orders at least 400 of the MK2 and asks for a MK3 with more iterative improvements than the pie in the sky FMBT.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Jan 2014 00:21

Karan M wrote:IMO, the large block to the left is also ERA..not a radar etc. Hope the Army orders at least 400 of the MK2 and asks for a MK3 with more iterative improvements than the pie in the sky FMBT.

Why a single vertical panel then (as opposed to the highly sloping ERA on the other side) ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jan 2014 01:11

It has to do with the placement of the GMS is my estimate. Note they have kept that exact portion ERA free as well, and probably designed this ERA panel specifically to avoid fragmentation towards the GMS.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Jan 2014 07:46

^^^

According to Ajai Shukla, that is the laser counter measure system.

Heavier, more lethal Arjun tank poised for trials

Anonymous said...
We are talking about the picture that shows a rendering of Mk2. In that pic the tank is brown and various modifications are colored.
The tank has a green panel on the left side of the turret. There is a white dot on the panel.
24 November 2011 10:53

Broadsword said...
Aaaah, that! The laser warning counter measure system.
24 November 2011 12:49

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 24 Jan 2014 07:54

Kakarat wrote:defenceforumindia.com

What an ugly creature. But hey, its 100X better than that POS tin-can our mechanized top brass love. Does that bloody jammer or whatever the hell it is really need to be there?

koti · Post by **koti** » 24 Jan 2014 08:14

^ It looks more like a jugaad tractor with all the stuff fixed using fevicol.

I still love it.
I think it is a DRDO item displaying all the external fixings rather then a army version paraded.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2014 08:24

the only remaining weak link is the older gen engine which also occupies lot of space and necessitates that drop tank in the back.
I read the "europak" diesel is 3 feet more compact which would permit getting rid of the drop tank or retaining it for a higher ferry range.

MTU would probably hug us to death if IA ordered say 700 arjun mk2 with europak engine....its a decades long revenue stream.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Jan 2014 08:55

RoyG wrote:
Kakarat wrote:defenceforumindia.com

What an ugly creature. But hey, its 100X better than that POS tin-can our mechanized top brass love. Does that bloody jammer or whatever the hell it is really need to be there?

... It's tin-can-izing of Arjun Mk.1

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Jan 2014 09:06

Elbit Systems ALWACS

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jan 2014 09:31

Only thing left to be fitted on Arjun now is a jet-pack...what else the tank guys want??? Get the tank in numbers already.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2014 11:18

it looks very much like the Leo2 PSO(peace support op) model..sometimes called A7. its designed to tear up roads to explode IED/mines, sustain close range hits from RPG-x(x>20)/LAW, have enhanced top attack protection from weapons fired from rooftops, and that remote weapon station with high angle elevation to safely unleash HMG fire from inside without having to rotate the turret for coax MG. that dozer blade can be changed to ploughs.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Jan 2014 19:27

militaryphotos.net

http://www.innovasjonnorge.no/PageFiles ... %20Bye.pdf

Tata motors to unveil ‘WhAP’ at Defexpo 2014 | idrw.org

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 25 Jan 2014 05:01

Lovely I will take a 1000 thank you...what an epic piece of art!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2014 05:39

Wonder why they went and put that jammer, if thats what it is, to that place. And why that entire square box for a single prepackaged jammer with its own optics?

Meanwhile those cribbing that it doesnt look good, go get better glasses. The build quality in this Arjun esp looks great. The only wish would be that jammer gets relocated for better ERA coverage.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2014 09:37

there is always room to improvement and kill factor, and safety factor. more protection with skirts, and perhaps the fuel tank tucked behind or get blast proof caged protection.

here is the pic for higher resolution purchase
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news- ... /464607891

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2014 09:44

more clarity.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 25 Jan 2014 12:12

Karan M wrote:Wonder why they went and put that jammer, if thats what it is, to that place. And why that entire square box for a single prepackaged jammer with its own optics?

Meanwhile those cribbing that it doesnt look good, go get better glasses. The build quality in this Arjun esp looks great. The only wish would be that jammer gets relocated for better ERA coverage.

400% agree saar the build quality looks absolutely awesome onlee one wishes to see a massive desert formation of these monsters running amuck and chewing everyting in their way. I love the ERA fitting as it goes all the way to the front and covers the aspect neatly right near the gun.

Also saar I thought the antenna was sone sort of radar no?

SaiK wrote:there is always room to improvement and kill factor, and safety factor. more protection with skirts, and perhaps the fuel tank tucked behind or get blast proof caged protection.

here is the pic for higher resolution purchase
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news- ... /464607891

saik saar i wouldnt worry too much with the tanks because IMVHO they would have more utility for ferry range than being used in active combat not to mention they would stop full turret movement. Also the skirt armour ityadi will be better utilised in an urban engagement. In a fast moving tank or a hull down engagement battle side and top armour combined with long rounds

and missile firing ityadi will be the priority again IMVHO

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2014 12:45

No radar on the Arjun AFAIK. None was ever mentioned either.

Also re:ERA if the IA had been more supportive of the program, DRDO would not have a "get this out of door asap" mentality as a result to make sure at least some MK2 got ordered as versus more T-90s, and would have had more time. Then they could have redesigned the turret to put the GMS up on top (though it would reduce protection to arty fire) and covered the entire front with ERA.

Right now, ERA arrangement is lopsided, with one side super protected & the other has less coverage. Glacis is well covered in comparison. The turret just shows a "get this done asap without time delay/turret reengineering and requal of FCS" thinking, presumably because they just want Arjun to be produced asap as the line is languishing without orders.

I mean, if you develop an advanced ERA with protection against both KE and tandem warhead HEAT, why not use it to the best extent possible and effectively future proof it for the long term, even if the current composite armor is "adequate" against near term threats.

Also bears asking why they did not go for an APS instead of this passive system which can only jam ATGMs and passively mask the tank. Trophy or Iron Fist with capabilities against even KE rounds would have been better IMO. Those might have even worked against top attack projectiles to some extent.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 25 Jan 2014 13:22

Karan M wrote:Also bears asking why they did not go for an APS instead of this passive system which can only jam ATGMs and passively mask the tank. Trophy or Iron Fist with capabilities against even KE rounds would have been better IMO. Those might have even worked against top attack projectiles to some extent.

That will take more time and army wants that including all the bells and whistles that you already see on Arjun IIRC some interview of CVRDE director or of Chander talked about it and called for the Army to rationalise what it wants instead of goofing around like a five yr. old.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2014 16:02

Which is my point. I still dont see the kind of ownership from the IA for the Arjun that it requires for the Arjun to be a completely world beating product across the board, with significant orders. Penny piecemeal orders are not enough.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 26 Jan 2014 19:48

India's Arjun Mk.II Debuts At Republic Day 2014 - LiveFist

koti · Post by **koti** » 27 Jan 2014 00:12

Some random comments on Arjun
Who is this buffoon?
Seems a decent blog but uneducated comments on Arjun.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 27 Jan 2014 15:18

The so called weight issues of the Mk1 will not get addressed with Mk2, So why will army accept this?
Wont they just say that this is even heavier than before and still cant fire a Brahmos

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jan 2014 19:44

regarding the ERA on mk2, the design and position of those placements.. if one considers various types of ATGMs, top attacks, etc.. has anyone thought about the effectiveness from those angles?

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Jan 2014 19:55

Karan M wrote:IMO, the large block to the left is also ERA..not a radar etc. Hope the Army orders at least 400 of the MK2 and asks for a MK3 with more iterative improvements than the pie in the sky FMBT.

Well, they could have moved he GMS to the top above the turrent and given a sloped ERA on the left as well! just as they did to the right side . Better protection and shakinah looks to go with it!