First IL-38 upgrade returns home

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 20 Jan 2006 13:16

Harry Posted: 20 Jan 2006 12:15 am Post subject:

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Priyank wrote:

That looks like a Sea Eagle training round on an IN's IL-38 (serial number IN 303).

Project Yaduvansh

Lot of good snaps, need a complete revap of the BR navy site admins.

Marcos · Post by **Marcos** » 20 Jan 2006 21:11

Singha wrote:GJ, the length of time it took to upg one airframe is a clear indication nothing was ready to plug-n-play when it was sent. Ru developed and tested the gear on our airframe coz probably they dont have any lying around.

hopefully the next few will be quicker because the stuff is finally plug n play now.

well, i got to say, its certainly not true, approaches the utter BS area. They had developed the Sea Dragon suite earlier and it did got 'featured' (at least the ESM stuff) on a Russian IL-38. Here is Ken's pics of the same which he posted in here and i don't think it was the Indian IL-38s, maybe i'm wrong ...

Also, the upgradation most likely included two stages. The first stage being the upgradation of the airframe itself (checking & extending the air-frame life) and the second stage catering to upgrading of on-boards systems, integrating new systems etc etc.

So imo, the dealy have its share mostly on the two phases with the larger one being on the first phase, since the airframe itself is of 70s vintage. So a very detailed and careful approach wud have required, failing which, any new systems wud have been just that, part of forensic data ... Also, chk out the ESM supports, u get to see a different one on the new a/c aka the IL-38 MKI (hopefuly, that wud be the appropriate name) where we get to see 3 'legs' against 8 on the earlier ones.

Himanshu wrote:How capable is the airframe in itself..

the airframe must be capable enough and the reson y we got a life extension on these 1970s ear airframe. So, by the end of these IL-38s servie, the airframe wud be something like 50 years. Also, Russia have offered more IL-38s, so definetely they have lot more to offer now.

JCage wrote:Russia cant spare more Il38's as far as I remember..hope they do so to sweeten the deal and get more upgrades!

well Russia cudn't spare any more earlier, when they were using the same. Now that, they are pretty much idle, there must be a good enogh numbers which cud be 'reincarnated' to make up the new IL-38MKIs ... after all the 2 extras that came to IN, was from the Russian stocks.

2 Urans iirc. Prasun as usual had plagiarized it.

... h do u know it can only carry 2 Urans?? .... got any source??

Marcos · Post by **Marcos** » 20 Jan 2006 21:20

Vick wrote:Did Vishu give permission to these blokes to use his pic? Or is this a IN produced pic?

h did it ever crossed ur mind that, it wud have been a 'private' image? ... anyone who looked at that pic with a knowledge of the affairs wud have got the fact that, such a image was beyond the capablity of any Indian media. If at all IN allowed it on a 'limited' scale, it must have been the Public Broadcaster - the good old - Doordarshan. If not a limited affair, there wud have been a lot more Indian media in the 'chase' plane from which the pic was shot. Hope u shud have considered it b4 u put that stuff on someone else ....

Also, i wonder, if any media showcased the Talwars?? ... and if my memory serves me right, our DD did have a few glimpses of the bridge and the 'exotic' screens inside, which they showed in a programme during 2004. Also there was another one, which went inisde the Jungle warefare school ....

Singha,

I think, the structural modification and upgradation also had it for making extra points under the wings. And if thats the case, I'd say, it wud have been rate for like 1,500+ kg for a 2-3 pack Urans like we see on the Tu-142 upgrade package. It wud make up like 4-6 Urans carried under the wings. Thous its just an assumption making use of what we got to see on the Tu-142 upgrade package.

anywas its not too out of realityu as there weighs just 600 kg ..... and hence the Kh-31A & P also gets on to the list .... but waiting for more details to come out ...

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 21 Jan 2006 17:18

And some pics before all the finishes:

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jan 2006 12:43

Igorr...can you please transalate that article into English? Secondly, who is the photographer for that close up image? I would like to add that picture in. Please advise.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 22 Jan 2006 13:44

Rakesh wrote:Igorr...can you please transalate that article into English? Secondly, who is the photographer for that close up image? I would like to add that picture in. Please advise.

These two picttures are from the russian aeronautic magazine "Vzlyot" ('Take of') No. 7, 2005. Any name of photograf is noted there. The text in brief:
" As the newspaper 'Red Star' (of Ru Army an AF) reported, in 2005 is planning to finish and to put on the service the first ASW airplane Il-38N (mean non export modification), with the new ASW complex "Novella", developed by Leninets.
The tests of its was ongoing from 2001. In the future all Il-38 of Ru AF/NAVY will be equipped with that on the 20-th air-repair plant in Pushkin city (Moscow distr).
As same as this,untll the summer 2005 three Il-38 was equipped by that way for India and soon will be returned to the customer. The modernised indian aircraft with the system Sea Dragon got the name Il-38SD."

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jan 2006 13:58

Thanks for that reply Igorr. I assume you mean Take Off? Also is No. 7, 2005 actually Nov 07, 2005 or Issue No.7 published in 2005? Please advise.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2006 14:07

anyone know the differences between Sea Dragon and Novella ? that would be interesting snapshot of current Ru policy.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 23 Jan 2006 03:11

Rakesh wrote:Thanks for that reply Igorr. I assume you mean Take Off? Also is No. 7, 2005 actually Nov 07, 2005 or Issue No.7 published in 2005? Please advise.

Take Off , Issue No.7 published in 2005 is right.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jan 2006 04:19

anyone know the differences between Sea Dragon and Novella ? that would be interesting snapshot of current Ru policy.

Think no further , Novella is the Gold Standard of the new ASW suite meant only for the RuN , Sea Dragon the export variant and hence would be

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnava ... 50123.aspx

09.07.03, Interfax-AVN

Two Il-38 Airplanes from Russian Federation Naval Aviation to Be Upgraded
for Indian Navy

Two Il-38 from Russias naval air fleet will be upgraded for the Indian
navy, an informed source in Russian aircraft construction reported to
Interfax-AVN on Wednesday.

After the loss of two airplanes last year, India plans to obtain and
upgrade two airplanes from Russias naval air force line elements,the agency
source noted.

He recalled that previously, in September 2001, FGUP Rosoboronehksport, the
Ilyushin aviation complex and Indias Ministry of Defense signed an
agreement for 205 million dollars for the upgrade of five Il-38 airplanes.

The IF-AVN source reported that five Il-38 have made up the 315th Indian
naval aviation squadron since 1977.

The first flight of an upgraded Il-38N airplane with a mock-up of the
future Novella(Morskoy Zmey) navigational, search and attack complex was
made the spring of 2001. State tests have been underway since November 2002
of this complex, which are planned for completion before the end of this
year. The reequipping of the majority of the Il-38 airplanes in the naval
aviation inventory up to the Il-38N standard is envisioned at the 20th
aircraft repair plant in the city of Pushkin outside St. Peterburg.

Intended for equipping naval aircraft, the Novellasystem is capable of
detecting airborne targets at a distance up to 90 kilometers and surface
((targets)) up to 320 kilometers. At the same time, the system
simultaneously retains 32 targets in the field of view both above and
beneath the water. It is used for submarine, surface and aerial radar
surveillance and weapons targeting.

The Novella complex combines a digital computer with the control stations
for two operators, each of which is equipped with a 13-inch liquid crystal
display, and a commanders station, which is equipped with a large monitor.
All blocs are connected to each other via special buses. Such a solution
allows integrating special equipment according to the customers choice,the
agency source emphasized.

According to information from open sources, today there are 10 Il-38 in the
Northern Fleet, in the Pacific Fleet there are 15 aircraft of this type and
several more are at the Center for Combat Training and Cross Training of
Russias naval aviation personnel at the airbase in the city of Ostrov
(Pskov Oblast).

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 23 Jan 2006 06:28

Janes IDR April 2005

As applied to fixed-wing aircraft, the Novella/Sea Dragon surveillance radar is described as being a coherent, klystron-based, X-band (10 MHz centre frequency, 3 cm wavelength) equipment comprising a planar-array antenna, a power amplifier and an exciter/receiver unit.
Operating modes include air-to-air detection against a sea clutter
background; synthetic aperture; inverse synthetic-aperture target
classification; long-range surface search in high-sea states and weather/
jamming clutter; beacon tracking; target acquisition and tracking (range,
heading and velocity); sonobuoy tracking (linked to the acoustic processing sub-system via a 1553B databus); and navigation/weather detection/weather avoidance.
Within the fixed-wing mission suite, the radar displays via one of three
multifunction consoles (based on Barco MPRD 134 colour LCDs)....

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 23 Jan 2006 14:53

India Seeks Missiles for Il-38
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI
DefenseNews, July 2005

The upgrades include an anti-submarine system,
integrated radar, digital avionics, a thermal imaging
system, infrared sensors, a sonobouy system, a
magnetometer, navigation system, Novella mission
sensor suite, Sea Dragon search radar, new navigation
communication systems, thermal imaging/infrared
cameras, magnetic anomaly detectors, electronic
support measures and radar for tracking approaching
missiles.

The suite also can detect airborne targets and can be
linked to the Russian Glonass satellite navigation
system, a Russian diplomat here said. The
modernization will allow the aircraft to remain
operational for a further 15 years.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 23 Jan 2006 15:56

Austin: Think no further , Novella is the Gold Standard of the new ASW suite meant only for the RuN , Sea Dragon the export variant and hence would be

Novella mission
sensor suite, Sea Dragon search radar

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jan 2006 17:04

well since the air launched KH-35 (uran) doesnt exist, there arent too many options around. Brahmos will be too heavy, there is some radar guided KH31 series ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2006 11:06

Novella mission
sensor suite, Sea Dragon search radar

The Novella is described as ASW complex suite for IL-38 , it also includes the radar, Sea Dragon is probably the export designation for the same..

According to Piotr The upgrade is also described as IL-38N for the Russian version and IL-38SD for the export or Indian version.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jan 2006 14:36

The return of the IL-38SDs now prompts the question,what are the future LR/MP aircratf going to be?Several types are needed for the IN and Coast Guard,for long range patrol as well as for medium ranges.The In has apparently given up on the US P-3 Orion offer,because the aircraft is no longer in production and future service/spares issues a decade down the line does not justify buying the aircraft.We require large numbers fo aircraft with advanced sensors to sanitise our vast maritime EEZ and coastline,from all manner of intruders,both economic offenders as well as enemy ships,aircraft and subs.

For short range requirements,we already have the Dornier series in servcie and production.However,loiter time and sensor fit and weaponry aboard require a larger platform.Aircraft in the class of ATR-72/42s,which the Turkish navy have ordered would suit the medium range needs,while more Il-38SDs (if available from Russia) would enhance the LRMP requirements,already filled in part by the TU-142s in service and fill the immediate gap in numbers.This still leaves room for a new aircraft with modern sensors and weaponry,preferably a jet for our long term needs.Apart from Boeing's P-8,based upon the 737 ,both Embraer and Dassault have smaller ASW/MRP jet designs.A combination of both jets and smaller trubo-prop aircraft for "low and slow" ops is essential for our maritime patrol requirements.One just has to look at Japan's huge numbers of maritime patrol aircraft (mainly Orions) to see how disadvantaged we are,especially now,when the world is facing an oil/gas crisis and the oceans importance in transhipment of petro products ,especially across Indian Ocean and Pacific waters is so vital.

A comparison of the various aircratf on option would be most interesting to find the right choices for the IN/CG.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 24 Jan 2006 15:27

Philip wrote:The return of the IL-38SDs now prompts the question,what are the future LR/MP aircratf going to be?Several types are needed for the IN and Coast Guard,for long range patrol as well as for medium ranges.The In has apparently given up on the US P-3 Orion offer,because the aircraft is no longer in production and future service/spares issues a decade down the line does not justify buying the aircraft.We require large numbers fo aircraft with advanced sensors to sanitise our vast maritime EEZ and coastline,from all manner of intruders,both economic offenders as well as enemy ships,aircraft and subs.

.

for the longterm future -- why dont we mount the SeaDragon sensors or better (( if required a few Israeli systems, better datalinks etc )) On the MTA being co-developed by IL & HAL.

Definitely India & Russia together can significantly improve the current SD sensor suite over a 4-5year period by which time airframe should be ready too.

Like Brahmos -- India & Russia can have a JV for a MPA based on the MTA airframe with space for lot of Brahmos/AShM on board for good offensive punch !!! Or is the airframe too large/heavy for an MPA role?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2006 15:34

the cargo bay style of transport a/c isnt ideal for AWACS/LRMP kind of role but a solution seems to have been found with Phalcon, by adding a extra floor or moving the mission eqpt into one end.

so its a good idea but additional fuel tanks will be needed and fuselage need to be made lighter and less rugged - no need for stol performance or ability to operate on rough strips or cart heavy loads on the floor.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 24 Jan 2006 16:26

Rakall, as a point of interest- the SV2000 was being proposed for aircraft as well by LRDE. Given its the Indian Navy, it may be the SV2000 which becomes the fit on a/c like the Do228 etc (navalized Saras perhaps). Navy has already inducted local ESM. IMHO, we'll still need to import Optronics- Thermal Imaging assembly & CCD, while we can and already do manufacture the laser range finder and gyrostabilized assembly/ gimbals. In Nav packages- GPS is being done by a bunch of local firms. RLG INS could be imported as local prototype is in devpt. We can develop a mission package tying it all together- HCL/ Wipro have the ability to handle that if pvt sector needs a bigger chunk, then theres TATA SED/ L&T. Offensive jammers- well, a combo of local & Israel gear. Weaponry- we'll need to rely on imports- probably the usual Russian gear. HAL can do structural mods and system integration with BEL.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 24 Jan 2006 17:03

I always thought that the P-99B by Embraer is a very cost effective platform for a MPA. Fit it out with custom blend of equipment and offer Embraer assembly in India, either through HAL or by Embraer setting up shop themselves. That way, they can cater to the defense and civil market right from India.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 24 Jan 2006 17:33

Vick wrote:I always thought that the P-99B by Embraer is a very cost effective platform for a MPA. Fit it out with custom blend of equipment and offer Embraer assembly in India, either through HAL or by Embraer setting up shop themselves. That way, they can cater to the defense and civil market right from India.

What would be the radar & sensors that could be a good package??
Is Sv2000 range enough?

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 24 Jan 2006 17:56

They can scale the radar depending upon the platform. And the range/ performance will vary accordingly.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 26 Jan 2006 00:46

According to the russian source , the airborn Uran Kh-35 is ready and come with Il-38 to India. http://www.rosprom.org/inf2.php3?id=1501

Also they have AAMs, AS torpedos and refueling devices.

Pit · Post by **Pit** » 26 Jan 2006 03:22

Singha wrote:well since the air launched KH-35 (uran) doesnt exist, there arent too many options around. Brahmos will be too heavy, there is some radar guided KH31 series ?

It did exist and was recently integrated on a foreign platform after shoting tests as resported by Tactical Missiles Corporation.

Make your own guess

...

Novella Vs Sea Dragon, Novella have more channels for their acustic processors, no idea what other changes.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jan 2006 05:20

Novella Vs Sea Dragon, Novella have more channels for their acustic processors, no idea what other changes.

Go On Mate , Lets see how far they have Degraded the SD

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 26 Jan 2006 05:55

Pit, source would be great.

And dont say anything mean about the Eurofighter just in case.

Pit · Post by **Pit** » 26 Jan 2006 05:57

IIRC (Hope my memory works) Novella's acoustic processing system has 128 channels, while that of Sea Dragon just 96...what did this mean?..I Have no idea, I'm no specialist of this kind of equipment.

Some pics:

(Your desires are orders JCage

)

ESM/ELINT system 2SD9:

http://www2.janes.com/janesdata/yb/jav/ ... 089530.jpg

http://www2.janes.com/janesdata/mags/id ... 118192.jpg

EO Turret SD-5:

http://www2.janes.com/janesdata/mags/id ... 118193.jpg

2SD1 Radar:

http://www2.janes.com/janesdata/mags/id ... 118190.jpg

MCCU control display based on Belgian BARCO MPRD 134.

http://www2.janes.com/janesdata/mags/id ... 034627.jpg

I have lots of info on BASIC Il-38 ASW suite (Berkut) from a nice Russian Book. Info on Novella/Sea Dragon is a little scarce but I have some nice info about it aniway...also about the sonobouys...it came from Jane's Defense Weekly so I assume I can't post the whole abstract here due to Copyright issue so I would have to paragraph correct?

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 26 Jan 2006 06:12

Thanks Pit, could you post those images as links? Not all BR users have broadband.

Any more data on the ESM - N vs SD, radar etc?

Cheers.

Pit · Post by **Pit** » 26 Jan 2006 06:24

Ahhh!

Source of that was an Air International Issue about Il-38, article wrote by John Lake, if you don't mind, I will need some days to return to lybrary and see the page/issue/year/month

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 26 Jan 2006 07:20

Thanks mate, paragraphs/ excerpts should be fine, as long as the source is mentioned.

vipin · Post by **vipin** » 26 Jan 2006 08:14

Austin wrote:
Novella Vs Sea Dragon, Novella have more channels for their acustic processors, no idea what other changes.
Go On Mate , Lets see how far they have Degraded the SD

LOL and this idiot wants us to buy the eurofarter. If the russians are degrading what they sell to india we can only imagine how much the euro-trash would degrade their products before they sell it to us.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jan 2006 15:13

If the russians are degrading what they sell to india we can only imagine how much the euro-trash would degrade their products before they sell it to us

Mate every one does it . Thats an unwritten business rule , If tommorow India exports its LCA to some country , Do you think it will be of the same standard that IAF operates .

That degradation is even there for allies , you can imagine what it could be for export customers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jan 2006 15:27

Novella's acoustic processing system has 128 channels, while that of Sea Dragon just 96...what did this mean?

I am no specialist too , But perhaps it means the ability to communicate with the number of dropped Sonobuoys at any point of time .

A single sonobuoys can use a single channel to communicate , So perhaps SD config can process data from 96 buoys at a time as compared to Novella 128 , Although this is just a guess work , I may be drastically off the mark

From what I have read on SD from Janes and others its really a nice ASW/ASuW suite , much better that what we have now .

The leased 2 P-3C should also help us understand and compare the US ASW system with the newer Russian offering , The IN has a very good idea on P-3C capability had many Naval officers onboard of P-3C even during recent Indo-US exercise.

Legend has it that a Russian Admiral had once commented that , IF i want to know where my submarines are , I just need to know where the Orions are.

Thanks Pit, could you post those images as links? Not all BR users have broadband.

My BroadBand Dreams were shattered 2 years back

, Welcome to Desi Broad Band Network

vipin · Post by **vipin** » 26 Jan 2006 15:30

Austin wrote:
If the russians are degrading what they sell to india we can only imagine how much the euro-trash would degrade their products before they sell it to us
Mate every one does it . Thats an unwritten business rule , If tommorow India exports its LCA to some country , Do you think it will be of the same standard that IAF operates .

That degradation is even there for allies , you can imagine what it could be for export customers.

Exactly, Atleast russia and india are allies and they collaborate in lots of areas. What leverage do we have with americans or europeans? The eurofighter that india gets will be lucky to be able to beat mig-35mki.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jan 2006 15:36

The eurofighter that india gets will be lucky to be able to beat mig-35mki.

Depending on how you see it , The MKI would be lucky to beat the Indian Eurofighter

vipin · Post by **vipin** » 26 Jan 2006 17:53

Austin wrote:
The eurofighter that india gets will be lucky to be able to beat mig-35mki.
Depending on how you see it , The MKI would be lucky to beat the Indian Eurofighter

LOL yes and US and Uk would hand us the trident noo-clear missile

and super duper noo-clear submarine

. Eurofarter is a still born horse being flogged to death and being pushed on the poor RAF. OOh not to mention would they allow us to fly that piece of crap over burma or do we need special permission from the ppodles.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jan 2006 18:02

vipin wrote:
Austin wrote: Depending on how you see it , The MKI would be lucky to beat the Indian Eurofighter
OOh not to mention would they allow us to fly that piece of crap over burma or do we need special permission from the ppodles.

I cant help if like all here , you too have a baised opinion on Eurofighter

Pit · Post by **Pit** » 26 Jan 2006 18:30

Let's continue to talk about Novella/Sea Dragon issues:

From JANE'S INTERNATIONAL DEFENCE REVIEW - NOVEMBER 16, 2000, article Russia modernises 'May' by Piotr Butowski.

Excerpts:

The work on the Leninets' Novella system was launched in the 1980s with intention of installing it on the Beriev A-40 Albatross ('Mermaid') jet-powered amphibian and the proposed shore-based Tu-204P MPA based on the Tupolev Tu-204 airliner. Following dramatic financial cuts, the work on A-40 was stopped in February 1996, with the cheaper Tu-204P assuming the lead. However, funding troubles continued (as a result of poor civil sales) and the Tu-204P programme has now also been cancelled. As a result, modernisation of the Il-38 is now considered as the top priority for Russian naval aviation.

Leninets has also developed -- and will be producing -- new sonobuoys for the Novella's radio sonobuoy subsystem. (In the former Soviet Union, sonobuoys were designed by the Slavutich design bureau in Kiev, now in the Ukraine, but produced in the Sigma factory in Moldova). During the Gelendzhik naval aviation exhibition in September, Leninets showed three new sonobuoys for the Novella system:

- RMB-81 (radiomagnitometricheskiy buoy), which consists of a float with radio transmitter, control command receiver and radio beacon, as well as a MAD receiver, which can be dipped to a depth of 100m. The buoy can operate for up to six hours;

- RGB-48 (radiogidroakusticheskiy buoy), a passive sonobuoy of similar size and construction to the RMB-81, but with acoustic signal receiver and processor instead of the magnetometer. The buoy can operate for 24 hours, at depths from 50m to 300m;

- GB-58 is a noise generator co-operating with passive sonobuoys (such as the RGB-48 and earlier RGB-41). Controlled by microprocessor, it can generate a signal of up to 1kW lasting 10s. It can be dipped to a depth from 50m to 1,200m.

Photo of sonobouys:

http://www2.janes.com/janesdata/mags/id ... 034629.jpg

Will post more later!

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 26 Jan 2006 21:43

One article with good picture, that demonstrates the difference between exernal look of Russian and Indian SD's:

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2006 10:11

the indian SD ESM box seems to have a more streamlined support legs. perhaps this is the production std and Ru SD will get rid of the "folding chair" type legs.

thanks Igorr and Pit, you guys are a goldmine of info on Ru kit.