Agni III Test - News & Discussion-3

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 17 Apr 2007 00:56

vinayak_dangui wrote:Arun or other gurus , IS there any news on Agni-II AT missile induction into the army? Since Agni-II AT is capable of striking deep into lizard territory currently it is the only deterrence against them. Will the Army phase out the older Agni-II's or will they also serve along with the AT's.

Dont know. There are some who are telling me, when there is green grass around why would the horse eat hay?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Apr 2007 01:02

The comment by the DRDO head that there were "constraints" to serial Agni production suggests that it will be slow going.
Might be a decade till there is a minimum force...

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 17 Apr 2007 01:13

Gerard wrote:The comment by the DRDO head that there were "constraints" to serial Agni production suggests that it will be slow going.
Might be a decade till there is a minimum force...

Expect things to change. The number of private particiapants in the Agni program is upto 258. The induction of a large number of private players in Agni III should change the game of numbers.

vinayak_d · Post by **vinayak_d** » 17 Apr 2007 01:26

Arun_S wrote:
vinayak_dangui wrote:Arun or other gurus , IS there any news on Agni-II AT missile induction into the army? Since Agni-II AT is capable of striking deep into lizard territory currently it is the only deterrence against them. Will the Army phase out the older Agni-II's or will they also serve along with the AT's.
Dont know. There are some who are telling me, when there is green grass around why would the horse eat hay?

Hmmm not sure what you meant but if you cannot speak freely lets forget it for now. Its good to hear DRDO chief finally give out the range. I think a minimum of 80 missiles (A-3) in Rail, Road and Subs (atleast 16-24) will be required for credible deterrent.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 17 Apr 2007 01:32

Gerard wrote:The comment by the DRDO head that there were "constraints" to serial Agni production suggests that it will be slow going.
Might be a decade till there is a minimum force...

Me think differently.

The Ghoda contemplated that it wasnt going to be long when the green grass will just spring/sprout out to full bloom, thus the SRDE decided to go slow on bhoosa, la appitizer to dvour the choicest rasgullas when it gets off the chaasni.

Sorry for limiting the language above it to Hindi/Urdi folks. That is only way I could relish the sweetness of rasgulla language.

vinayak_d · Post by **vinayak_d** » 17 Apr 2007 01:34

That I completely understood....

ShibaPJ · Post by **ShibaPJ** » 17 Apr 2007 01:38

Arun_S,
Samajhdar ko ishaara kaafi hota hai.. Par ek saath itni rosogulla khalein toh diabetes bhi ho sakta hai naa.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 17 Apr 2007 01:49

[quote="Arun_S"][quote="shyamd"]Don't know if this was announced before. Arun_S saar hinted on it earlier.

â€œWe have achieved the capability to make missiles with a range of 5,500km but the decision to develop an ICBM has to be taken by the political leadership,â€

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Apr 2007 02:15

Now that was BR's sole voice asserting Agni-III range is 5,500 Km, and now DRDO Chief M. Natarajan says similar things

Actually he is saying that they have the capability to design a missile that will go to the magic 5500 km range, not that the A3 actually has this range.

Of course, having released the true dimensions of the beast (16.7m and 2m) and that of Kalamji's flowers (100-250kg), the real range will be guessed by those following the progress.

Caesar has crossed the Rubicon but still insists he is in Gaul.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 17 Apr 2007 02:35

ShibaPJ wrote:Arun_S,
Samajhdar ko ishaara kaafi hota hai.. Par ek saath itni rosogulla khalein toh diabetes bhi ho sakta hai naa.

The daaktar says jitnay rosogulla khao untnay meel chalo bhi, tou koi prablam nahin hai. Just kick those many butts of bush mush zhu.

You know what I mean daktar says make and use nor problam (cant accumulate else will have diabetic loose motion like Amrika bahadur & Roos).

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 17 Apr 2007 02:39

Gerard : Caesar has crossed the Rubicon but still insists he is in Gaul.

Good one

May be 20-30 yrs later, mod might release the official documents
someone would publish memoirs.
Would be an interesting read

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Apr 2007 02:40

The Chinese seemed to have had problems casting the large diameter solid motors for the DF-31. With their launch technology based on LOX/Kerosene, they have much less experience than India in manufacturing large diameter solid rocket motors.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Apr 2007 02:46

Isn't the President of Belarus visiting India?

Now might be the time to purchase some of the TEL vehicles they make there for the Topol.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Apr 2007 03:54

Missile envy

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Apr 2007 03:55

Catch up, fast

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Apr 2007 04:54

I find most of these analysis to be very bland. The amount of Kms covered by a missile seems to be the most, and in some cases the only, decisive factor in an analysis. Strange. Analysis stuck in one gear.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 17 Apr 2007 07:15

NRao wrote:I find most of these analysis to be very bland. The amount of Kms covered by a missile seems to be the most, and in some cases the only, decisive factor in an analysis. Strange. Analysis stuck in one gear.

Makes sense to me. The most important question about a missile system is:
Am I in range? You are reading articles for the popular press. I'm not sure how the range of Indian missiles is anything to worry about for other countries though. Pretty much Pakistan and China and the Chinese are surprisingly quiet. The Pakistanis are oddly vocal since these long range missiles are not of any use against Pakistan. Don't get why.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 17 Apr 2007 07:27

NRao wrote:I find most of these analysis to be very bland. The amount of Kms covered by a missile seems to be the most, and in some cases the only, decisive factor in an analysis. Strange. Analysis stuck in one gear.

Agree, these days I dont get much time to post, nor is my dear friend Jones of the world around

But the BR community should now focus on the low cost options (that uncle and Lizard combo will try) to tie up India to regional status (aka South Asian power)

1) PRC will increase proliferation to TSP right left and center
2) unkil will arm to teeth TSP to give conventional superiority
3) FMCT will be tried down the thorat of India one more time
4) Obma and Co will try new gimmicks
etc etc

come on folks think about tomorrow

'BR where tomorrow comes today while others await it to Dawn'

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Apr 2007 08:04

Unconventional Control:

Unconventional control systems is a broad category that includes a number of advanced technologies. Most techniques involve some kind of thrust vectoring. Thrust vectoring is defined as a method of deflecting the missile exhaust to generate a component of thrust in a vertical and/or horizontal direction. This additional force points the nose in a new direction causing the missile to turn. Another technique that is just starting to be introduced is called reaction jets. Reaction jets are usually small ports in the surface of a missile that create a jet exhaust perpendicular to the vehicle surface and produce an effect similar to thrust vectoring.

Link:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/we ... 0158.shtml

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Apr 2007 08:13

After watching (rather closely) Uncle's strategists, and then seeking what has happened in Iraq and A'stan, I really am not too concerned about what they do in TSP. For, whatever they do, it will lead to the destruction of TSP - a slow bleed. (I do differentiate between US strategists and US Armed Forces.)

China is a different matter. And, we may see a opaque +ve relationship between India and China, with Russians doing a dance behind the curtain.

Back to the US: they, IMVVVHO, are starting to shoot themselves in the foot. Nothing new for super powers. What goes up must come down.

Now only if we could make it O'Bama. It just may fly.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Apr 2007 08:18

BRSpeak:

"Necessity is the mother of relations"

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 17 Apr 2007 09:03

ramana wrote:
Unconventional Control:

Unconventional control systems is a broad category that includes a number of advanced technologies. Most techniques involve some kind of thrust vectoring. Thrust vectoring is defined as a method of deflecting the missile exhaust to generate a component of thrust in a vertical and/or horizontal direction. This additional force points the nose in a new direction causing the missile to turn. Another technique that is just starting to be introduced is called reaction jets. Reaction jets are usually small ports in the surface of a missile that create a jet exhaust perpendicular to the vehicle surface and produce an effect similar to thrust vectoring.
Link:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/we ... 0158.shtml

holy cow! Agni 3 has demostrated this feature!!

I feel BR should get hold of the better images from PTI, It will make things clearer

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Apr 2007 09:05

John Snow wrote:
4) Obma and Co will try new gimmicks
etc etc

NRao wrote:After watching (rather closely) Uncle's strategists, and then seeking what has happened in Iraq and A'stan,

Back to the US: they, IMVVVHO, are starting to shoot themselves in the foot. Nothing new for super powers. What goes up must come down.

Now only if we could make it O'Bama. It just may fly.

Uncle wants normal relations with India but it needs informers to handle India. The new breed of informers are the EJs and their clones inside India.
India influence in ME and Iran is watched closely.

ShibaPJ · Post by **ShibaPJ** » 17 Apr 2007 10:04

The daaktar says jitnay rosogulla khao untnay meel chalo bhi, tou koi prablam nahin hai. Just kick those many butts of bush mush zhu.

You know what I mean daktar says make and use nor problam (cant accumulate else will have diabetic loose motion like Amrika bahadur & Roos).

Arunji,
Mein apna nahin unko

khilane ki baat kar raha tha.. As your graph so amply demonstrates, we can deliver pretty large loads of rosgulla anywhere around the world. Feels great to know that we can now sign and deliver the diabetics, whereever they are with all the mithais/ medicines they deserve, all with customary, traditional Indian love and affection.

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Apr 2007 11:23

hm.. I guess that unconventional control thingy sounds very similar to the ones on board SM-2/3's final stage,iirc someone had posted the youtube link of the same on BR.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 17 Apr 2007 13:12

Arun_S wrote:
Shankar wrote:The 1500 kg payload is applicable if we consider MIRV configuration.If the payload is reduced by a factor of 3 then surely range will increase automatically increasing the re entry velocity(arun pl confirm this is the case)bringing it closer to 7 km/sec as seen in more established ICBMs
You hit the nail on head. 1500Kg is only applicable for MIRV. Thus the last test was almost certainly a development flight and the next bird will have more feature/functions.

Shankar wrote:Obviuosly Agni 3 was not launched at max range as seen from its flight profile and flight duration. The million dollar question is what if it were launched at max range with much higher trajectory the optimum one
I have figured that out last trajectory that also gave an estimate of amount of energy lost in the dog tail wagging maneuver, pls wait for one day.

As for your question the answer is solid. It is what is on BR A3 section.

The trajectory is only feasible >15 min and <16 min (that makes press report of approx 15 min correct). In this calculation I fitted in reported peak altitude of 400Km and accounting for this flights energy wasting tail wagging maneuver (use of flex nozzles) that I saw in video recording. This corresponds to splash down at a range of 4,130Km. This collaborates the 4000Km range shown on some of the TV reports.

At 4130 Km range the Navy ship must have been located. Splash down at ~15degree South latitude.

vinayak_d · Post by **vinayak_d** » 17 Apr 2007 13:22

15 deg south is below indonesia. Did DRDO test fire the A3 that far?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2007 13:34

there is nothing that says we cant fire anywhere in the sea, even to antarctic shore if desired.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 17 Apr 2007 14:46

Interesting stuff.

The graph showing payload versus range of A3 and A2 has one very interesting fact. The A3 has a range of 12000 kms if the payload is reduced to 500kgs. If we assume that a warhead with a significant yield can be compressed into a half tonne payload - does this mean that the A3 is the long awaited Surya ICBM.

My heart missed a beat when I saw this range-payload combination.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 17 Apr 2007 14:49

It becomes even more interesting if you reduce the payload to around 250.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 17 Apr 2007 15:34

krishnan wrote:It becomes even more interesting if you reduce the payload to around 250.

12000 is enough range to target any part of the world. That would make it a true ICBM. So we wouldn't need to reduce the payload below 500kgs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2007 15:56

looks like light has finally dawned on the innocent.

all future missiles will be called Agni-n++ onlee no matter if their DNA is of chalk and cheese.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 17 Apr 2007 16:03

Singha wrote:looks like light has finally dawned on the innocent.

Singha, how did you know I am still innocent. You naughty boy, you.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2007 16:10

for costly missiles like A3 it makes sense to use MIRV to soundly destroy a large target like city here the 3000km range with 1.5T comes into play. we cant afford too many of these unlike ussr and usa, so MIRV is a must to ensure enough strike power.

arun · Post by **arun** » 17 Apr 2007 16:11

Arun_S wrote: This corresponds to splash down at a range of 4,130Km. This collaborates the 4000Km range shown on some of the TV reports.

At 4130 Km range the Navy ship must have been located. Splash down at ~15degree South latitude.

A test flight beyond 4000 km is unlikely.

Mission Director Avinash Chander in the same news article where he said the Agni crossed the equator also indicated that the test did not exceed 3,000 Km :

ICBM with 5,500-km range can be developed in three years: DRDO

â€¦â€¦â€¦. Pointing out that Agni-III had been tested to almost its full range of 3,000 km, mission director Avinash Chander said â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦

"Agni-III is the first Indian missile to have crossed the equator," said Chander, â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Apr 2007 17:35

Actually, Kalam's flowers comment is more than a little tongue in cheek. All you yindoos have seen how our aircraft drop flowers. Noticed how they fall, right? Petals separated. Think MIRV.

abrahavt · Post by **abrahavt** » 17 Apr 2007 18:04

I wonder if the Agni 3 will fit and can be vertically launched from the ATV

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Apr 2007 18:56

abrahavt wrote:I wonder if the Agni 3 will fit and can be vertically launched from the ATV

Check Arun_S' diagram - he has a SL version. IN would be now compelled to follow. Arun did not give them a choice.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 17 Apr 2007 20:19

Sorry the link to the image is not working:

So for the time being here is the Agni family:

Link: Happy Agni family

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2007 21:08

inshallah work must proceed on a hypersonic scramjet RV that can fly for 100s of Km inside atmosphere at Mach6+ and defeat any ABM shield.