Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stability

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vsudhir
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by vsudhir »

On the subject of Chankya, apologies if poszted already, but this is pertinent:
Kautilya's Arthashastra (1915 Shamasastry translation)

Some excerpts from Book VII, Chapter IX that layout the thinking behind the great game (Due credit to to N Pai):
Of the three gains, the acquisition of a friend, of gold, and of territory, accruing from the march of combined powers, that which is mentioned later is better than the one previously mentioned; for friends and gold can be acquired by means of territory; of the two gains, that of a friend and of gold, each can be a means to acquire the other.

Which is better of the two: a friend of long-standing, but unsubmissive nature, or a temporary friend of submissive nature, both being acquired by affording relief from their respective troubles?

My teacher says that a long-standing friend of unsubmissive nature is better inasmuch as such a friend, though not helpful, will not create harm.

Not so, says Kautilya: a temporary friend of submissive nature is better; for such a friend will be a true friend so long as he is helpful; for the real characteristic of friendship lies in giving help.

Which is better, a big friend, difficult to be roused, or a small friend, easy to be roused?

My teacher says that a big friend, though difficult to be roused, is of imposing nature, and when he rises up, he can accomplish the work undertaken.

Not so, says Kautilya: a small friend easy to be roused is better, for such a friend will not, in virtue of his ready preparations, be behind the opportune moment of work, and can, in virtue of his weakness in power, be used in any way the conqueror may like; but not so the other of vast territorial power.

Which is better, a friend of vast population, or a friend of immense gold?

My teacher says that a friend of vast population is better inasmuch as such a friend will be of imposing power and can, when he rises up, accomplish any work undertaken.

Not so, says Kautilya: a friend possessing immense gold is better; for possession of gold is ever desirable; but an army is not always required. Moreover armies and other desired objects can be purchased for gold.

Which is better, a friend possessing gold, or a friend possessing vast territory?

My teacher says that a friend possessing gold can stand any heavy expenditure made with discretion.

Not so, says Kautilya: for it has already been stated that both friends and gold can be acquired by means of territory. Hence a friend of vast territory is far better.

When the friend of the conqueror and his enemy happen to possess equal population, their people may yet differ in possession of qualities such as bravery, power of endurance, amicableness, and qualification for the formation of any kind of army.

When the friends are equally rich in gold, they may yet differ in qualities such as readiness to comply with requests, magnanimous and munificent help, and accessibility at any time and always.

Which is better, an immediate small gain, or a distant large gain?

My teacher says that an immediate small gain is better, as it is useful to carry out immediate undertakings.

Not so, says Kautilya: a large gain, as continuous as a productive seed, is better; otherwise an immediate small gain.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

Google results for offshore balancing

It is a well known strategy. It is used in India too....my relatives use it to keep me off-balance as well. :twisted:
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ramana »

John Snow wrote:I want to xerox couple of pages from a book and post here, which is relavant. How do I do that?

Scan them in pdf format and post them in megaupload or some such site. And also e-mail them to me.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ramana »

Also explains all those Lords supporting the Kashmir cause in London. The game aint over yet from their side.

I used to discuss with a fellow member that the creation of TSP had cutoff India's access to the Middle East which is a natural frontier for India. My thoughts were not fully formed then but now I see why its important to follow that line of thought. The importance of Kashmir is that its the link area between these regions. India would be totally cutoff if Kashmir is lost to TSP or to others. Cleaning up POK is the first step and nothing should deviate from this goal.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ramana »

A good idea of what we in BR are trying to do in Paul Kennedy's words

Distant Horizon
...
What Landes had in mind were single-volume books whose authors took hold of a vast topic and then wrestled it to the ground, comprehended it, and explained it to readers -- in sum, gave it historical sense. This creative intellectual grappling with big themes described, of course, Landes' own pedagogic journey, a career in which the subjects attempted became bolder and grander: from Bankers and Pashas: International Finance and Economic Imperialism in Egypt to The Unbound Prometheus: Technological Change and Industrial Development in Western Europe From 1750 to the Present and The Wealth and Poverty of Nations: Why Some Are So Rich and Some So Poor.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by John Snow »

Ok ramana garu
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

Can some learned scholar with access to government archives help out by finding Olaf Caroe's paper(Pub:1942) referred to by A G Noorani in the first post. The title of this paper is - Whither India's foreign policy.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ramana »

And while at find J.L. Nehru's paper on India's foreign policy published in 1937 in the Foreign Affairs. I have his 1963 paper and Mrs G's paper in 1977. I got the ref to his 1937 paper in his 1963 paper comments in the editor's column.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Sarma »

ramana garu: Please check your email.
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Post by ramana »

Sure and thanks.
More in the e-mail.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

In the period preceding the runup to partition, Wavell was the viceroy. Along with Caroe, he and Penderal Moon were the three very important personalities formulating policies for India. Mountbatten was a mere hatchet man, he came in just to gett he British out of India while keeping India and Pakistan in the commonwealth. This he do so flawlessly.

About Penderal Moon:
Penderel Moon was a brilliant Oxford scholar and Fellow of All Souls who joined the Punjab cadre of the Indian Civil Service in the late 1920s. He did his job efficiently, while also cultivating friendships with many Indians. Among them was the great Punjabi nationlist Rajkumari Amrit Kaur. In 1942, Amrit Kaur was put in jail owing to the Quit India movement. Moon, however, continued to write letters to her. When his superiors chastised him, he answered that he had never let personal friendships come in the way of official duties, and vice-versa. If a friend broke the law he would put her in jail, but continue to speak to her afterwards.

The explanation was not accepted, so Moon resigned from the I.C.S.. But India stayed in his blood. [b]After the end of the Second World War, he advised Lord Wavell on how best to hasten the end of the British Raj.[/b] After Independence, he held several high offices under the Government of India. He served as Chief Commissioner of both Manipur and Himachal Pradesh, and as an Adviser to the Planning Commission. It was only in 1961 that he finally returned to England, where he divided his time between All Souls and a home in the country.

Moon was deeply knowledgable about India. And he was a scholar, the author of fine books about Warren Hastings and Mahatma Gandhi, and of an authoritative history of the rise and fall of the Raj. (He was also Associate Editor of the landmark Transfer of Power volumes.) He, and possibly he alone, had the wisdom, experience, and understanding to write that remarkable essay in the Economic Weekly of 1958. It would still be nice to think that the author was Nehru, but were I a betting man, my money would be on Penderel Moon.
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2005/04/24/sto ... 270300.htm

I read his book "Divide and Quit" a while ago.

This was the opinion in British circles about China, when compared with India.

SOME time ago I asked Caroe's `Brains Trust' to produce a comparison between India and China as future Great Powers, e.g. in material resources, man power, political stability, organisation. They produced an interesting paper which I read today. The general conclusion was that there was not much in it, but that China was tougher and had been through the fire both of internal revolution and of external invasion, while India had not and was softer." Lord Wavell, the Viceroy, wrote this comment in his Journal on September 18, 1944, when India was under British rule and the Second World War had not ended. (Wavell: The Viceroy's Journal edited by Penderel Moon; page 90).
Breaking India into manageable states may have been Wavell or Moon's idea (using Jinnah as a stalking horse) but all they got was partition. It will interesting to find out what Moon was upto when he served in independent India.

Added later:
Major Short who was subsequently invited to India to pacify the Sikhs also told Lord Mountbatten that Sikhs were not happy with the Partition Plan. Consequently, Lord Mountbatten arranged meetings between Sikh leaders and Muslim League leaders so that they should come to some understanding on the demands of Sikhs who wanted creation of Sikh State. Jinnah was not prepared to give anything in writing. He wanted the Sikhs to withdraw the demand of Partition of Punjab and accept Pakistan, then he would create Sikh State within Pakistan. Meantime Penderal Moon, brought out a scheme by which East Punjab was to be made a Sikh Province and it should be given the option to join India or Pakistan.
Moon wanted the state to go to Pakistan. Note that he was ICS officer of Punjab cadre. Ref: sikhstudies.org
Last edited by Paul on 18 Jul 2008 03:45, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ramana »

I wonder what VP Menon used to do in the GOI before he became asst to Patel? I know he was called a stenographer but just becasue he did not have a high post doesnt mean he was intellectually weak. I read that he was right hand man of Patel in the states accession to GOI that created a sort of stability in contrast to the visceral partition.

Internet archive link to Menon's Transfer of Power

One can download to an ebook reader. Note the publisher!

And
Olaf Caroe's book Pathans from 550 BC to 1957
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by SwamyG »

ramana
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Post by ramana »

paul, Readig the footnotes in the Offshore balancing pdf you posted I realised how Churchill got his wilderness years- he voted against the party line to prevent Dominion status for India. He only got out of the doldrums due to WWII.
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Post by Paul »

Churchill was viewed as a anamoly in 1930s and 40s. A 19th century politician in a 20th century world. Many moons ago I had posted my thoughts on how a person can relaunch his career by going against conventional opinion just before it could change. Conveniently this person voices his dissent just as he senses the change in the winds (another such person is Ronald Reagan). Actually Churchill was a miserable failure in public life and would have withered away had WWII not happened. The Dardanelles fiasco (gallipolli) in WWI was his baby too.

Most english writers (westerners do not revere their leaders like we do. Ken follet, Hemingway etc. refer to this streak of luck in their works) are well aware of this career turn in his life.

I think Buchanan's book is the forerunner of a new thoughtprocess amongst the conservative right in the west. It could also lead to a close reexamination of some of the other pillars like ther alliance with sunni islam etc. This will inevitably lead to the facts about Churchill's shallowness tumbling out of the cupboard in the not too distant future.
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Post by Paul »

Tournament of Shadows: The Great Game and the Race for Empire in Central Asia By Karl Ernest Meyer, Shareen Blair Brysac

From P 555 onwards.

Google preview: Essentially a confirmation of the wells of power article from another source. Reaffirms our findings that Caroe (again he was the last governor general of NWFP) played matchmaker between Pakistan and US. One thing I would like to find out was if he arranged Pak PM Liaqat Ali Khan's maiden visit to Congress in 1950.

Caroe's concern over Soviet penentration of Giligit, Baltistan etc.(See beginning of P 556) may be the reason why the British intervened in 1948 to ensure these areas went to Pakistan. This is where Cawthorne came in.

Those who think Anglo-saxon infatuation with Pakistan is headed for the rocks....read this again.
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Post by ramana »

Need to go back to Harold Mackinder's essay in Royal Geographic Society's journal. He talks of rimland and control of Central Asia would lead to world control. All these flow from it. Its in google books.

At Bay Area BRF meets I hand out cds with many google books downloads. unfortunately except for usual suspects( ~ 3) I get no feedback on the content or if they had read any of the stuff.


I ha read the Tournament of Shadows borrowed from a fellow member about three years ago.

It clarified some of Yogi Patel's ideas about importance of the Ladakh tot he Silk route etc.

Where is he nowadays? Could use his input on this thread.
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Post by svinayak »

Paul wrote:Tournament of Shadows: The Great Game and the Race for Empire in Central Asia By Karl Ernest Meyer, Shareen Blair Brysac

From P 555 onwards.

Google preview: Essentially a confirmation of the wells of power article from another source. Reaffirms our findings that Caroe (again he was the last governor general of NWFP) played matchmaker between Pakistan and US. One thing I would like to find out was if he arranged Pak PM Liaqat Ali Khan's maiden visit to Congress in 1950.

Caroe's concern over Soviet penentration of Giligit, Baltistan etc.(See beginning of P 556) may be the reason why the British intervened in 1948 to ensure these areas went to Pakistan. This is where Cawthorne came in.

Those who think Anglo-saxon infatuation with Pakistan is headed for the rocks....read this again.
The most important line is that Caroe and others were the link between the old - Great Game and the new Cold war game after 1950.
The US Pres Candidate General Wesley K. Clark, US Army also said that the old Great Game has to be abandoned after 911. But they are still clinging to it since there is still benefit to it.

What is it of the old game they are still benefiting. Is it J Nehru and his party?


Image
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ramana »

A stable India will control its natural abroad and that means the Middle East and SE Asia. The benefit they are still seeing is that TSP non rapproachment with India allows the the operating space in those very regions. Hence they encourage TSP's intransigence.

I really think enough bad things have been said about JLN. If Indians denigrate Indian icons there wont be an India, as it gives space to outsiders to play.

So from this day I proclaim a new edict for BR: Four individuals- Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Mrs Indira Gandhi and Atal Bihari Vajpayee are above discussion. No denigration of these above four individuals will be allowed.

Thanks, ramana
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Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:A stable India will control its natural abroad and that means the Middle East and SE Asia. The benefit they are still seeing is that TSP non rapproachment with India allows the the operating space in those very regions. Hence they encourage TSP's intransigence.
Only after 1971 they starting taking this approach. They have free access to the region during the cold war and Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. They continued having access with the Islamists and after 911 they have a permanent station for access to central asia. News Talk radio show discussing about afghanistan concluded that they cannot do anything until US policy on Pakistan is taken care of. That is depended on what India wants it to be.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by SwamyG »

I probably think J.Nehru saw what the West was doing. And I read some where that Olaf Caroe or Henry Bayorade were little disappointed with Nehru and wanted to counter him. It is because Nehru saw through the game that he focuse more on NAM.
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Post by svinayak »

SwamyG wrote:I probably think J.Nehru saw what the West was doing. And I read some where that Olaf Caroe or Henry Bayorade were little disappointed with Nehru and wanted to counter him. It is because Nehru saw through the game that he focuse more on NAM.
But after J. Nehru what is it. Did they get what they wanted
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Post by SwamyG »

Ramana: All mentioned players played their role in the playground and rules of the game at the time. But your edit is little harsh; and hopefully it does not stop some of the gurus from questioning the actions, thoughts and behaviors of those luminaries. All those folks had pluses and minuses, and we should discuss them case to case basis. And hope we have that opportunity.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Paul wrote:I think Buchanan's book is the forerunner of a new thoughtprocess amongst the conservative right in the west. It could also lead to a close reexamination of some of the other pillars like ther alliance with sunni islam etc. This will inevitably lead to the facts about Churchill's shallowness tumbling out of the cupboard in the not too distant future.
It is very important to not loose focus, as we track the changing game. It is MONEY, which is the primary cause for all these other pillars to exist. It was the colonial wealth that India provided and the middle eastern oil, which were the game drivers for version 1 and 2 respectively. Track how is this key aspect is going to change and then, one can easily map the actions of the west.
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Post by Paul »

Please do not quote me partially or out of context. Reason I say Buchanan's book is unique is that it is the first one challenging conventional opinion about WWII. He is asking those questions from the results POV. The net result of WWII was that the west's control over asia started slipping and Bolshevik domination over half of europe - significant setbacks for the West.

America's decline is a mere continuation of this trend. So what was the benefit for the west in fighting two major fratricidal wars (WWI/WWII)?

Two posts ago I also said this:


Those who think Anglo-saxon infatuation with Pakistan is headed for the rocks....read this again.
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Post by ramana »

One could argue that th West's control of Asia was slipping and thats why Imperial Japan stepped in. What Buchanan is implying is that the UK should have accomodated Nazi Germany and retained control of Asia.

However this begs the qestion as GB was getting ready to get to of India. It was a question of when and not if. WWII only hastened it as it bankrupted GB and even loot of India could not sustain its greatness any longer. So it became United Kingdom. Is that the name of country or place or really a grouping? People laugh at the name Kingsdom of Suadi Arabia which is named after a family. What about UK what does it mean? Atleast USA has America a place in it.
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Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:One could argue that th West's control of Asia was slipping and thats why Imperial Japan stepped in. What Buchanan is implying is that the UK should have accomodated Nazi Germany and retained control of Asia.
It is the soviets which completely changed the big plan of the colonial countries. By grabbing land and deciding the fate of vaste areas of Europe and Asia the Allies in WWII found that they lost the influence in those areas which historically they had.
To counter Soviet and to contain Soviet they had to build other nations. PRC was one nation and Pakistan was other nation. Pakistan was a late idea which was done in a hurry after the WWII in 1945 when Soviets turned out to be smarter in intelligence about post war defeated regions.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Paul: Do not be mad. Certain thoughts triggered in my mind reading your post, so it was not a response to anything you wrote, as such. However, it seems you are saying something to my post, which would indicate something else apart from money, as the key driver, for the great game. If so, I would like to know your views in full, before commenting.
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Post by Paul »

ShauryaT, no offense taken buddy. So let us get these misconceptions out of the way.

Now moving on to the real issue, what is the trigger for the game....I am not sure to be honest!

My objectives are more humble. We have read many times from early days of British perfidy, Nehru's incompetence, Pakistani aggressiveness or PRC arrogance. What I am trying to is to find evidence linking actual happenings on the ground in the run up to Independence to the framwork of the great game to start with. All this time the standard definition was "Competition between Russia and England for control of central asia" and "British quest to ensure security of their Indian dominions". All the books and articles on this subject mainly project the British viewpoint, Indian involvement or their interest in this is not even mentioned. I also believe their is a black hole in the period 1942- 46 on reasons for partition. Something changed after WWII (identification of the USSR as the next threat?). What was it? Why did Cawthorne head the Pakistani side of the Kashmir CFL talks with India in 1948? Was this a mere coincidence? How come the northern areas went to Pakistan in 1948? Why was Burma separated from the Indian dominion in 1938? the year seems very close to 1947. Why did the soviets tell IG not to count on friendship treaty if India moved in on west pakistan? Moving on to more recent events Operation Malabar ( naval joint excercises in BOB - Why BOB? why not the arabian sea? Is there a pattern to this?

These are some of the questions I am trying find answers to.

However as Ramana said we are just testing the waters to see how deep they are. Let us try to find all the small pieces and the big picture will come together by itself.

Getting to the overall objective at this stage would be to second guess the work of all the personalities covered above. They were a bunch of exceptionally talented indviduals who spent a lifetime working on only this. To try to second guess the trigger as you put it with a few posts would be a bit presumptuos don't you think?

Added later - The day we define the trigger of the game from India's POV is the day we can close this thread. This thread would have truely served it's purpose!
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Post by Paul »

An alternate view point....basically poohpahs the whole Caroe affair. But offers no evidence. We already have evidence from multiple sources pointing to the contrary.

http://www.thehindu.com/2005/10/27/stor ... 361000.htm

How America dislodged Britain from Pakistan the title is misleading! it should be "How to extricate the brits from getting the blame for partition of India

Anita Inder Singh

Archival material shows that by early 1951, the Americans were for an understanding with Pakistan. The British could not rebuff the Americans, but they thought Middle East defence should hinge on Egypt, not Pakistan.

THE IDEA of the United States replacing Britain as a world power is familiar. Why and how the U.S. stepped into Britain's place in South Asia in 1954 has been revealed from British and American archival sources since the 1970s. The evidence dispels two common Indian assumptions: first, that the British created Pakistan in 1947 to shore up their military position in the "Islamic" Middle East and the Indian subcontinent; and secondly, that the British influenced the Americans into giving military aid to Pakistan in 1954.

Both assumptions are wrong.
Indian and Pakistani archives on the subject are not open to the public. Evidence from a range of British archives after 1940, including files of the British Cabinet, Viceroys, chiefs of staff, military intelligence, and war staff has shown that British officials debated the pros and cons of Pakistan after the Muslim League demanded it in March 1940. But the British preference was always for a transfer of power to a united India, which they could continue to use as the base for imperial defence. Pakistan would only be accepted as a last resort if the British could not persuade the League against it. In that event, they would consider a military alliance with Pakistan, but the general feeling among British officials was that Pakistan would divide the Indian army and destroy the foundations of imperial security.

Despite the creation of Pakistan, in August 1947 the British chiefs of staff hoped for early talks with independent India on its participation in imperial defence. Indian non-alignment ruled that out. But British officials remained against defence ties with Pakistan. They continually turned down pleas by Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Liaquat Ali Khan, and Ayub Khan for military largesse on the grounds that it would offend India without securing any great advantages in the Middle East. They perceived Pakistan as a South Asian power having little influence in the Middle East.

There is no evidence that Olaf Caroe, or any other British official, influenced the U.S. State Department to give military aid to Pakistan. The Indian idea of a British conspiracy to weaken India probably stemmed from London's public endorsement of the American decision to give military assistance to Pakistan. In doing so, London was simply accepting the inevitable — nothing less, nothing more.

Differences over Pakistan


The British and Americans had very different ideas about the role of South Asia — and Pakistan — in Middle East Defence. In the 1950s, Britain's Middle Eastern policy focussed on Egypt. For London, the Middle East comprised Egypt, Iran, Palestine, Iraq, and Jordan. Material on India and Pakistan is listed under the South Asian and Far Eastern departments of the Foreign Office. In contrast, Pakistan is listed in American records under several headings: South Asia, Near and Middle East, Middle East Defence, and Mutual Security.

The one point on which British and American officials concurred was that there was no Soviet military threat to South Asia after 1945. The subcontinent was therefore not a major theatre of the Cold War. This was one reason why the British were unresponsive to Pakistan requests for a military alliance after 1947. They thought India and Pakistan should contribute jointly to imperial defence. They did not revise their strategic planning immediately after Partition, and so clung on to their traditional image of the subcontinent as a single strategic entity. And India was for them the coveted, if elusive, military prize.

Like the British, the Americans turned down Pakistani requests for military aid between 1947 and 1951. They did not rate Pakistan highly as a potential ally and were happy to have the British as their surrogate in South Asia. The Communist takeover of China in 1949 and the outbreak of the Korean War in June 1950 aroused American interest in Pakistan. These events prompted a reappraisal of the American reliance on the British in South Asia and the Middle East.

On September 18, 1950, George McGhee, then Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern, South Asian, and African Affairs, told British officials that the U.S. had no confidence in Egypt; and, "looking elsewhere for leadership, we were bound to think of Pakistan, which was the most progressive of Moslem countries and was in a good position to point out the inconsistency of backward economic and social conditions with Moslem principles." By January 1951, the State Department was seeing British influence declining in the Middle East but no American security pacts with countries there or in South Asia were then envisaged.

McGhee wanted a military alliance without too much American involvement, but there were few signs of local allies. Only two countries offered the U.S. an opening to the Middle East — Pakistan, which had proclaimed its keenness to join forces with the West, and Turkey, which was already a member of NATO.

Following the assassination of the Iranian Prime Minister, General Razmara Ali, and the nationalisation of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company in March-April 1951, the Americans thought of distancing their concerns from those of the reactionary British; "partnership" would serve American interests better than imperial domination.

A U.S. search for allies was now on. On February 26, 1951, McGhee proposed that the Americans consider on "an urgent basis" the desirability of an understanding with Pakistan, which would provide for American training and equipment for its armed forces. On April 3, he told British officials that it was "vital" to have Pakistan in Middle East Defence. The British could not rebuff the Americans, but they thought that Middle East defence should hinge on Egypt, not Pakistan. But on May 2, 1951, McGhee told the U.S. Chiefs that the Middle East could not be defended without Pakistan. The Policy Planning Staff of the State Department suggested in a working paper on May 23, 1951 that Pakistan, Arab countries, Israel, and Iran should be invited to join a Middle East Command.

Going ahead without Britain



Events in the Middle East heightened American discomfiture with the British. In October 1951, Egypt's refusal to join the Middle East Defence Organisation enhanced American interest in Pakistan's inclusion in Middle East defence. Anti-British demonstrations in Cairo in January 1952 only increased Washington's impatience with London. By September 1953, when General Ayub Khan, Pakistani C-in-C, visited Washington with yet another request for military largesse, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles told him that "he hoped General Ayub would get what he came for." He was ready to arrange a meeting between Ayub and President Eisenhower in mid-October.

On October 9, 1953, the British were told that the Americans had decided to give military aid to Pakistan. London was stunned. Washington had not consulted them: it had presented London with a fait accompli.

On December 7, Dulles told Prime Minister Anthony Eden at Bermuda that the U.S. was undecided on the form of aid to be given to Pakistan. He did not tell Eden that the Americans were already working on the procedures to be followed to establish a Turco-Pakistani pact. On December 29, 1953, the British embassy in Washington was informed that the U.S. had decided in principle to give military aid to Pakistan within the framework of a Turco-Pakistani alliance. Once more the British were taken by surprise. "This is rather startling," minuted Eden on the telegram from Roger Makin, then British ambassador in Washington. "[W]hat do we think?"

Even as the British thought of objections to the Turco-Pakistani pact, the Americans went full steam ahead. On January 5, 1954, Eisenhower agreed in principle to military aid to Pakistan. And on February 18, he gave formal approval to the State Department's plan.

British indignation at being kept in the dark by the United States was not lessened by their feeling that the Americans were out to replace them as the primary power in the Middle East and South Asia. But they could do little about it.

And so began the process by which Pakistan moved into the ambit of U.S. influence. American plans to give military aid to Pakistan went against British interests. London did not influence Washington at any time on the issue. In February 1954, Washington's decision to give largesse to Pakistan reflected Anglo-American differences over Middle East defence. At the same time, it symbolised America's success in supplanting Britain as the primary foreign influence in Pakistan.

That influence has prevailed into the 21st century. In October 2001, the U.S.' war against the Taliban was launched from Pakistani military bases, and established the U.S. as the dominant South Asian power. That is one of the long-term consequences of America's decision to enter into a military alliance with Pakistan in 1954.

(Dr. Singh is Ford Foundation Fellow at the Centre for the Study of Law and Governance at Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi, and author of a book, The Limits of British Influence: South Asia and the Anglo-American Relationship 1947-56.)
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

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Despite the creation of Pakistan, in August 1947 the British chiefs of staff hoped for early talks with independent India on its participation in imperial defence. Indian non-alignment ruled that out. But British officials remained against defence ties with Pakistan. They continually turned down pleas by Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Liaquat Ali Khan, and Ayub Khan for military largesse on the grounds that it would offend India without securing any great advantages in the Middle East. They perceived Pakistan as a South Asian power having little influence in the Middle East.

There is no evidence that Olaf Caroe, or any other British official, influenced the U.S. State Department to give military aid to Pakistan. The Indian idea of a British conspiracy to weaken India probably stemmed from London's public endorsement of the American decision to give military assistance to Pakistan. In doing so, London was simply accepting the inevitable — nothing less, nothing more.
From the above article - This assertion is wrong. There was a debate but their cold war priorities were always on Russia and to make sure that they dont get a port in the Indian ocean.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

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The following is based on a reading of two books: "War & Diplomacy in Kashmir" by Dasgupta and "the US & Pakistan" by Dennis Kux.

Cawthorne was tasked by Liaquat Ali to ask for British help in 1948. At that point of time, the fear among the Pakistani Army commanders (generally the Brits) was that if India would push from Poonch to Kotli and then Mirpur, they would control the Mangla headworks on Jhelum and also quite close to Rawalpindi. Alarmed by this appreciation, Liaquat Ali Khan dispatched Major General Cawthorn to meet British Home Office and possibly Attlee for help. Obviously, Cawthorn should have enjoyed the immense confidence of the Prime Minister to be entrusted with such a sensitive task. He was Dy. Chief of the Pakistani Army at that time.

Another character that we should certainly discuss is Noel-Baker Philip, who was at that time Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (and head of CRO, Commonwealth Relations Office). He played a huge role patently detrimental to India and far too advantageous to Pakistan. He strongly criticized India for accepting Kashmir's accession. He criticized India for sending Sikh soldiers into Kashmir. Overall, he was rabidly anti-Indian. Having had been Secretary for Air Force, he was aware of the plans of the military for bases in Pakistan etc. He advised Mountbatten to link the the withdrawal of the tribesmen with a solution for Kashmir in his meeting with the Pakistanis at Lahore in Nov. 1947.

Anyhow, it was this character Noel Baker that Cawthorn met in London. Cawthorn spoke of the fears of Pakistan regarding the spreading of communism and the help it needed to defend itself. Noel-Baker welcomed the Pakistani appreciation of the world situation and arranged for a meeting with Attlee. Atlee welcomed the suggestion to help Pakistan and it was endorsed by all the UK service chiefs. Cawthorn was informed that a proposal from Pakistan was welcome. Cawthorn returned to Pakistan and informed a delighted Liaqat accordingly. Liaqat had extensive and secret talks with Noel-Baker and Attlee the very next month in London and several things were decided. One was that the Kashmir question would be taken to the UN and the UK would not tolerate any Indian offensive against West Punjab. Pakistan was therefore able to re-deploy the forces used to defend W. Punjab in Kashmir.

In Dec. 1948, the defence proposals were more or less formalized between Pakistan and the UK, except for two sticky points. One was that Pakistan did not want the UK to have a similar deal with India and the second was that the deal should cover regional-conflicts also apart from global ones. The Brits said that initially the deal was exclusively between the UK and Pakistan alone and that they could not get involved in regional conflicts especially between Commonwealth countries. To assuage the bitterness caused by the second point, they decided to allow a disproportionately large influx of arms into Pakistan under the guise of the defence deal that would help the Pakistanis take care of India. The only country that could sustain such large military supplies was the USA and the Brits arranged for the same.

This is further borne out by the turnaround in the US approach to supplying Pakistan with military hardware. In Sep. 1947, Jinnah had warned that Russia wa sbehind Afghanistan's call for Pashtunistan and Pakistan was too strategically important for such a division. He dispatched immediately his special emissary to Washington for a USD 2 Billion loan for meeting both defence and economic needs. The US turned it down and offered USD 10 M instead. However, things began to change soon. Immediately after Liaqat's meeting with Attlee and Noel-Baker in London and the successful conclusion of secret talks (upon Cawthorn's initiative), Liaqat met US Secretary of State Marshall and brought up the issue of communism and how the US could help Pakistan defend itself. Marshall always let the British decide the US foreign policy on India and Pakistan. From then on, the US-British-Pakistani nexus grew enormously.
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ramana wrote:So from this day I proclaim a new edict for BR: Four individuals- Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Mrs Indira Gandhi and Atal Bihari Vajpayee are above discussion. No denigration of these above four individuals will be allowed.

Thanks, ramana
Your edict will be complied with. However, something to ponder. History will judge leaders by two things only. First, did our leaders have a big decision to make and second, did they get it right?

There are some things that our above leaders did that make me proud and some that make my blood boil. Ofcourse, I have the luxury of hindsight, which they did not but they made their call. It is our duty to learn from their actions and so, shall they be judged. Edicts will silence some views temporarily, but is that the best way to get to form a balanced understanding of our leaders? On your good judgment, ramana.
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Acharya wrote:
ramana wrote:One could argue that th West's control of Asia was slipping and thats why Imperial Japan stepped in. What Buchanan is implying is that the UK should have accomodated Nazi Germany and retained control of Asia.
It is the soviets which completely changed the big plan of the colonial countries. By grabbing land and deciding the fate of vaste areas of Europe and Asia the Allies in WWII found that they lost the influence in those areas which historically they had.
To counter Soviet and to contain Soviet they had to build other nations. PRC was one nation and Pakistan was other nation. Pakistan was a late idea which was done in a hurry after the WWII in 1945 when Soviets turned out to be smarter in intelligence about post war defeated regions.
Acharya: The Russian threat was recognized at least as far back as 1860, at the very onset of the great game. It is Oil that changed the nature of the game, in the region. So, the game changed becuase the pot of gold changed. From India to the Middle East.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

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Acharya wrote:
Despite the creation of Pakistan, in August 1947 the British chiefs of staff hoped for early talks with independent India on its participation in imperial defence. Indian non-alignment ruled that out. But British officials remained against defence ties with Pakistan. They continually turned down pleas by Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Liaquat Ali Khan, and Ayub Khan for military largesse on the grounds that it would offend India without securing any great advantages in the Middle East. They perceived Pakistan as a South Asian power having little influence in the Middle East.

There is no evidence that Olaf Caroe, or any other British official, influenced the U.S. State Department to give military aid to Pakistan. The Indian idea of a British conspiracy to weaken India probably stemmed from London's public endorsement of the American decision to give military assistance to Pakistan. In doing so, London was simply accepting the inevitable — nothing less, nothing more.
From the above article - This assertion is wrong. There was a debate but their cold war priorities were always on Russia and to make sure that they dont get a port in the Indian ocean.
That article is dead wrong. However, after WW2 the theory of prohibiting USSR from entering warm waters of Indian Ocean was mostly for Indian consumption. The more important goal was to stop them from entering the ME. Think about it.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

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ramana wrote:What about UK what does it mean?
The full name is United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain is England, Wales and Scotland.

So UK, as it is now, is a union of four constituent countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales (Or as Gerard likes to call it - Occupied N.Ireland, Held Scotland and Wales).

~1707 England and Scotland formed a union. ~1800, Ireland joined. in 1920, Ireland was partitioned and UK had a name change to include "Northern" in front of Ireland.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by svinayak »

ShauryaT wrote:
Acharya wrote: It is the soviets which completely changed the big plan of the colonial countries. By grabbing land and deciding the fate of vaste areas of Europe and Asia the Allies in WWII found that they lost the influence in those areas which historically they had.
To counter Soviet and to contain Soviet they had to build other nations. PRC was one nation and Pakistan was other nation. Pakistan was a late idea which was done in a hurry after the WWII in 1945 when Soviets turned out to be smarter in intelligence about post war defeated regions.
Acharya: The Russian threat was recognized at least as far back as 1860, at the very onset of the great game. It is Oil that changed the nature of the game, in the region. So, the game changed becuase the pot of gold changed. From India to the Middle East.
This is correct. So the first world war was actully to protect the me and control the iraq
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ShauryaT wrote: That article is dead wrong. However, after WW2 the theory of prohibiting USSR from entering warm waters of Indian Ocean was mostly for Indian consumption. The more important goal was to stop them from entering the ME. Think about it.
This was after 1971 - the threat of SU entering ME was the biggest threat.
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^ http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5741878159 (around 10 mins)

British Indian army invading Iraq was one of the earliest troop movements in WWI.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

In John Master Book - Road past mandalay he describes his unit Gorkha rifles landing in Iraq to oust a pro-axis dictator. and also a recce into Iran to map out possible german invasion routes.

Objective of giving Northern areas to Pakistan is to keep Russia away from India. Objective of partition is to keep India away from Middle east and keep the garrisons in business.

Wakhan corridor was also created to prevent Pakistan from having direct border with erstwhile USSR..kind of like double insurance. Wakhan corridor has Kirghiz population.
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